Meg (searchdog)/Nita (nitaghei) I need your help! LOTS OF DOGGIE TMI!

[Marisa6826]

As you may remember, I have a 10m old male French Bulldog. He's been with us for four months. I was told he was 'doggie door' trained. Problem is, we don't HAVE a doggie door and because of the way the house is laid out, we can't do one.

He is marking EVERYTHING in the house - from kitchen cabinets to our BED. Yes, (hanging head in shame) our BED. Twice in 24 hours. Can I just tell you I'm glad I have three different down comforters?!

What do I do? Do I try and find a trainer? He's already crated when we are out of the house and/or can't keep an eye on him. He's the sweetest, most affectionate dopey puppy, but this is ridiculous. We can walk and walk him, and not five minutes after coming in, a BIG present will be left for us.

How do I find a reputable trainer? I have done those Pet Smart classes in the past with another dog, but I don't know that I can get to one on a regular basis, as Jonathan doesn't get home until 7:30, and Sophie's bedtime is 8pm.

Help!

-m

[Marisa6826]

Well, CRAP! (no pun intended).

22 of you now know my doggie skeleton in the closet and not one response!

-m

[jbowman]

Well, he is from Texas, Marisa ;)!

[Marisa6826]

That's true. Could explain a lot. :P

-m

[mudder17]

Sorry, I would so much have liked to help you, but no experience with doggies here. But I hope you find some help soon! FWIW, if I were in the same situation, I would hire a private trainer to retrain the dog.

But from reading the other doggie thread, you'll have plenty of help soon! :D

ETA: jbowman, I'm cracking up at your comment!

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif , 18 months, hoping for 2 years


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[alkagift]

Ugh, I feel for you. I read this, had no ideas, now I'm reading it again--we had similar problems with our cat before she passed away.

I would ask the vet for a trainer rec, mine had some excellent ones. My cat's vet even knew cat psychologists! That's my best suggestion. My other suggestion is to check out the frenchie's rescue groups. Here's a lady from French Bulldog Rescue Network that might be able to recommend someone:

NEW JERSEY
Heather Anderson 856-795-1739 [email protected]

Here's another person, this one from French Bulldog Club of America Rescue League
NJ Swedesboro Terry Nuss 856-467-1814 [email protected]

Good luck!

Allison
Mommy to Matthew, who is TWO!

[LBW]

St. Hubert's in Madison has wonderful trainers and I'm sure they'd work with you on an hourly basis -- or whatever you need.

http://www.sthuberts.org/whatwedo/training/

Have you also cleaned the areas he's marked really well? We adopted a second dog about a year ago and he was marking a bit. We were vigilant about cleaning with Nature's Miracle and he seems to have finally stopped. (I believe the guy who owns the formula for Nature's Miracle recently started a new company under a different brand name -- at least that's what Morris/Sussex Pet Supply told us. The new brand is much cheaper.)

Good luck!

[Marisa6826]

Oh. we buy Nature's Miracle by the GALLON. We have about three of them downstairs right now. ;)

I know about St. Huberts. Friends of mine have taken both their mastiffs there. It's kind of a hike for me. I'm in Essex County. I was thinking about Hal Wheeler's in Cedar Grove (also kind of a hike), but I've heard that they are big into prong collars, punitive training, etc.

-m

[Marisa6826]

Hey Allison-

I've spoken with Heather in the past - NOT so friendly. I've also left messages with Terry Nuss.

They're both in waaaay South Jersey. I'm in Northeast.

Thanks though!

-m

[Wife_and_mommy]

I'll throw my two cents at you although I'm no expert.

Since you don't have the doggie door that he's used to, did you try semi-starting over with the housebreaking so he'd learn he has to let you know or wait for his potty times? Honestly, 10 months sounds young to be housebroken, let alone 6 months. I would try doing a thorough cleaning of the areas he's pottied and starting over since he's obviously not gotten the clue.

Okay, just reread what you wrote so another thought I had was that maybe he has a medical problem? Have you had him checked out. My BIL had a cocker who had these kinds of issues and it was her oversubmissiveness that was the problem. She did it until she died at age 9.

My last suggestion is if he's only marking is to have him neutered. I believe marking is a male thing(no, really? ;) ) and it might help alleviate the problem.

Hope you can get some more expert answers! My GSD is 6 and hasn't had an accident since 2 y.o. I don't know how you do it!

Hth,

Elizabeth

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Our second morsel due early February 2006!

[Vajrastorm]

One of my dogs was slow to housetrain as a pup. Big pain.

The first thing I would do is teach the command "Go potty." Or however you'd like to word it. You need to catch him going potty outside, which sounds like it could be hard, but when you do give him a special treat, praise him lavishly and say "Good potty! Good potty!" If you can do this enough times, he will get that "Potty" = doing his business = reward.

Then, phase two, which is like what you're doing. Supervision, supervision, supervision, with frequent trips outside and the command to "Go potty!" Once he understands the term, you shouldn't come back inside with him until he's gone. How long between potty trips depends on what works best for him. You don't want it to be too often, because he needs to produce, but you don't want to wait too long either.

When Ivan (my slow potty learner) was little, I even carried him around the house in a sling. I had that luxury because we didn't have a child yet. I carried him around because I could not take my eyes off him for 60 seconds or he'd use that time to go to the bathroom in the house.

Eventually he will no longer associate the house with going to the bathroom. It may take time, but it should work as long as he doesn't have a medical issue.

"Go potty" is also a useful command before car trips.

[searchdog]

Sorry M, I was out at a Moms Night Out and just got home.

Anyway it sounds like you have a serious dominance issue with the dog. Long story short I am sure you know dogs are pack animals and your family is the dogs pack at this time. The only problem is that it sounds like he is in charge of the pack instead of you and Jonathon.

Is he urinating and defecating in the house? Also is this an intact male? I always suggest people have the animal be checked out at the vet first to rule out any medical issues, UTI etc. You are doing the right thing by cleaning the spots with Natures Miracle. You need to limit his freedom in the house he has proven to you many times that he can't handle it. I would basically take him back to what we do to train a puppy (do this in all your spare time LOL). Take him out to go to the bathroom give him a minute or two (also pick a command to tell him to go I use "Better go now", if he goes he earns 20-30 minutes in one room in the house, if he doesn't go then he goes back in his crate and you do the same thing again in 30 minutes. He basically is going to have to earn time out of the crate. You don't want to let him run around the house if you know he hasn't gone to the bathroom outside. You need to get him on a schedule so you know when he needs to go out. If you feed him you can pretty much usually guarantee that he is going to need to deficate within a few minutes up to an hour after he eats, so you need to aniticipate this and not give him freedom to go in the house until he has done his business outside.

Ok I am going to leave it at that until I hear back from you. Oh yeah you definatly need to find time to go to an obedience class and get your pack back in the right order. Where are you located? One of my friends and the girls I work with went to an actual dog training school and I can ask her if there is anyone or any place near you that she recommends since she has a big network of friends and places from school. Where I work we have classes in the evenings from 6:30-7:30 and then from 8-9 so you might be able to find a class you can do even though Jonathon doesn't get home until late.

On a side note I really do recommend talking to the vet to rule out a medical problem. I was once training a little adorable male bull dog and one of the things the owners wanted us to work on (they left the dog for in kennel training with us, we had it for 4 weeks) was house breaking. Well you can't house break a dog when you are at a kennel, but we do crate train for people so when they get the dog home they can usually pretty easily house break a dog by using the crate training. Anyway I felt the dog had a medical issue and called the owners to discuss it with them and they got really mad at me and said the dog does not have a medical problem he is just being obstinate, said I was the trainer and should no better, blah, blah, blah. So I waited a few more days and the dog got worse, not better and my boss and I talked about it and she called the owner this time and said that they either had to give us permission to take the dog to our vet or come get the dog and take it to there vet or we wouldn't continue training the dog because something was wrong with it. Well they reluctantly said to take it to our vet, which I did. The dog had a very rare and pretty much fatal condition. The vet kept the dog and the owners went and met with him and they tried treating the dog but there was no improvement and they ended up euthanizing the dog. So that is the short version of a much longer story and the owners eventually called and apologized to me for not listening to me in the first place when I said something was wrong. I am not trying to scare you, but that is why I recommend you have the vet give the ok to the fact that this is indeed a behavior problem and not a medical problem.

Ok gotta run, I need to go eat dinner and go to bed. Let me know the answers to the above questions and I will give you more info on what to do.

ETA: This has not been spell checked so I am sure there are some horrible errors. SORRY

[searchdog]

Sorry M, I was out at a Moms Night Out and just got home.

Anyway it sounds like you have a serious dominance issue with the dog. Long story short I am sure you know dogs are pack animals and your family is the dogs pack at this time. The only problem is that it sounds like he is in charge of the pack instead of you and Jonathon.

Is he urinating and defecating in the house? Also is this an intact male? I always suggest people have the animal be checked out at the vet first to rule out any medical issues, UTI etc. You are doing the right thing by cleaning the spots with Natures Miracle. You need to limit his freedom in the house he has proven to you many times that he can't handle it. I would basically take him back to what we do to train a puppy (do this in all your spare time LOL). Take him out to go to the bathroom give him a minute or two (also pick a command to tell him to go I use "Better go now", if he goes he earns 20-30 minutes in one room in the house, if he doesn't go then he goes back in his crate and you do the same thing again in 30 minutes. He basically is going to have to earn time out of the crate. You don't want to let him run around the house if you know he hasn't gone to the bathroom outside. You need to get him on a schedule so you know when he needs to go out. If you feed him you can pretty much usually guarantee that he is going to need to deficate within a few minutes up to an hour after he eats, so you need to aniticipate this and not give him freedom to go in the house until he has done his business outside.

Ok I am going to leave it at that until I hear back from you. Oh yeah you definatly need to find time to go to an obedience class and get your pack back in the right order. Where are you located? One of my friends and the girls I work with went to an actual dog training school and I can ask her if there is anyone or any place near you that she recommends since she has a big network of friends and places from school. Where I work we have classes in the evenings from 6:30-7:30 and then from 8-9 so you might be able to find a class you can do even though Jonathon doesn't get home until late.

On a side note I really do recommend talking to the vet to rule out a medical problem. I was once training a little adorable male bull dog and one of the things the owners wanted us to work on (they left the dog for in kennel training with us, we had it for 4 weeks) was house breaking. Well you can't house break a dog when you are at a kennel, but we do crate train for people so when they get the dog home they can usually pretty easily house break a dog by using the crate training. Anyway I felt the dog had a medical issue and called the owners to discuss it with them and they got really mad at me and said the dog does not have a medical problem he is just being obstinate, said I was the trainer and should no better, blah, blah, blah. So I waited a few more days and the dog got worse, not better and my boss and I talked about it and she called the owner this time and said that they either had to give us permission to take the dog to our vet or come get the dog and take it to there vet or we wouldn't continue training the dog because something was wrong with it. Well they reluctantly said to take it to our vet, which I did. The dog had a very rare and pretty much fatal condition. The vet kept the dog and the owners went and met with him and they tried treating the dog but there was no improvement and they ended up euthanizing the dog. So that is the short version of a much longer story and the owners eventually called and apologized to me for not listening to me in the first place when I said something was wrong. I am not trying to scare you, but that is why I recommend you have the vet give the ok to the fact that this is indeed a behavior problem and not a medical problem.

Ok gotta run, I need to go eat dinner and go to bed. Let me know the answers to the above questions and I will give you more info on what to do.

ETA: This has not been spell checked so I am sure there are some horrible errors. SORRY

[Marcy_O]

Not a dog trainer here, just a groomer :) But I can tell you that there is a product called Anti Icky Poo that you can get (yes, Anti Icky Poo is the real trademarked name!) that will neutralize the proteins in the urine. I have used natures miracle too and it works well, but Anti is much better. If you can't find it and are interested let me know. I'll ask Dr. A. where he gets it.

[Marcy_O]

Not a dog trainer here, just a groomer :) But I can tell you that there is a product called Anti Icky Poo that you can get (yes, Anti Icky Poo is the real trademarked name!) that will neutralize the proteins in the urine. I have used natures miracle too and it works well, but Anti is much better. If you can't find it and are interested let me know. I'll ask Dr. A. where he gets it.

[Marisa6826]

Elizabeth-

He already is neutered (he had his surgery a week before he came to us). We're forEVER cleaning up after him.

We were out to dinner the other night when he got the bed. The sitter took the girls out for a walk and didn't know to put him in his crate. I think he was ticked off and it was his way of getting back at us for leaving him home alone. I know it was him, since Tickie (the older dog) can't jump on the bed by herself.

I have to call my vet tomorrow and see if she has any insight. I figured I'd try here as well.

-m

[brittone2]

For trainers, I'd call a vet school and see if they have any recommendations local to you. Long story short, I have a dog with serious issues (we rescued him). We worked with a trainer or two and it was ineffective and not the most gentle (lots of pop and jerk style training for example). In any case, we figured out on our own our dog had some fear aggression issues, got him in a for an evaluation at a great behavioral program at the University of Pennsylvania vet hospital, got lots of help, and got him meds. Obviously you are dealing with a different issue, but I learned that someone who is more of a behaviorist was way more effective and more humane than the average run of the mill trainer. We found someone locally (well, 45 mins away) that we worked with quite a bit as well. She was awesome and really helped our pooch. Sadly we wasted a year or so with other trainers that basically were ineffective and probably made our doggie's issues worse initially.

My recommendation is to call a vet school so you are at least spending your $$ on someone who knows what they are doing.

[Marisa6826]

Meg-

I PM'd you!

-m

[Marisa6826]

Marcy, I'll take a look. Thanks!

-m

[cmdunn1972]

You've already gotten a lot of good responses, but I'll add my own ideas if you don't mind. :)

I'd say first check with the vet to see if 1) these problems are common in French bulldogs and 2) he doesn't have a medical problem. If the cause isn't medical, then ask the vet if s/he can recommend either a good trainer or a good, reputable breeder. (When we had dogs, it was our breeder who recommended the trainers that we used, and most of them were advertised through word of mouth.)

If the cause is psychological, there are steps you can take. It's possible that he's having trouble adjusting to a new home with new rules and is acting out. Training will help him establish where he fits in your family. At 10 months, he's still a puppy, so even if he's not as flexible as an 8 week old, he's not as hard to train as a 10 year old. (I like what the PP said about re-potty training your dog. That might work since he's still young.) Dogs are pack animals, so they tend to behave better when they know where they fit in the social structure. Of course, it's possible to obedience train him yourself at home. It's a matter of showing him what to do, being consistent, and using lots of praise.

A few books I might recommend. (I would read the reviews on Amazon or look in your local library to see which ones I like best before purchasing.):

"No Bad Dogs: The Woodhouse Way" by Barbara Woodhouse (traditional, correction-based method)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671541854/002-1700453-3071208?v=glance

"Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training" by Karen Pryor (clicker training)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553380397/002-1700453-3071208?v=glance

"So Your Dog's Not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds" by Betty Fisher and Suzanne Delzio (treat training)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0062734571/002-1700453-3071208?v=glance

HTH!

[LBW]

I've heard that about Hal Wheeler's training, too. I think they have a program where you can leave your dog with them for two weeks and he/she will come out completely trained. We threaten our older dog with this doggy boot camp all the time!

[Momof3Labs]

Marisa, are you using the Nature's Miracle properly? First blot up all the pee that you can. You have to shake the bottle (very important!!), then soak the area - like down to the padding for carpeting. Do NOT soak up the excess Nature's Miracle! Then cover it with foil so the dog doesn't use the area again until the smell is gone. I've found that it takes up to a week for the smell to be completely gone, and I usually reapply the NM during that time.

IMO, this has nothing to do with no access to a doggie door. If that were the problem, he'd be eliminating by the door, not on your bed. And IMO Petsmart training classes are only marginally effective - the one class that we took had a nice but lousy trainer, so no one really got anything out of it. You'd be better off finding a good, solid dog trainer with their own facility.

Just out of curiousity - do you know why he was available at 6 months of age? Sometimes the dog's history can lend clues to what is going on.

[Marisa6826]

Lori-

The breeder had intended on keeping him to show, but he had an undescended testicle.

I do use the NM as directed on the bottle. As I said, we go through GALLONS of it. ;)

-m

[zen_bliss]

you might try biokleen bac-out. it takes care of the odor very fast. i found nature's miracle ineffective even with the 'waiting a week' regimen. (i had a dog who eventually died of a failing bowel. believe me, i've gone through every enzyme out there.)

[nitaghei]

>As you may remember, I have a 10m old male French Bulldog.
>He's been with us for four months. I was told he was 'doggie
>door' trained. Problem is, we don't HAVE a doggie door and
>because of the way the house is laid out, we can't do one.

This doesn't mean he's actually housetrained.
>
>He is marking EVERYTHING in the house - from kitchen cabinets
>to our BED. Yes, (hanging head in shame) our BED. Twice in
>24 hours. Can I just tell you I'm glad I have three different
>down comforters?!
>
>What do I do?
First, I'd take him to the vet and make sure he's healthy, and that it is a behavioral thing.

If so, you really need to do puppy house training all over again. Keep him tethered to you or in a crate when you can't see him. Give him water and take him out at regular intervals. Limit his water to only these times (make sure it's often enough so there's no risk of dehydration). Praise him like crazy when he pees outside. You can also start using a voice command when he pees outside (Go pee; do your business, whatever).

Do I try and find a trainer? He's already
>crated when we are out of the house and/or can't keep an eye
>on him. He's the sweetest, most affectionate dopey puppy, but
>this is ridiculous. We can walk and walk him, and not five
>minutes after coming in, a BIG present will be left for us.

Is he on a routine for being out/fed/walked? That's really important. As you know, I do not believe in free-feeding.
>
>How do I find a reputable trainer? I have done those Pet
>Smart classes in the past with another dog, but I don't know
>that I can get to one on a regular basis, as Jonathan doesn't
>get home until 7:30, and Sophie's bedtime is 8pm.

The Petsmart classes are generally worthless. Your best bet would be a local obedience club. Start with the AKC website for obedience clubs that are affiliated with the AKC in your area. I'm sure there are lots in NJ.
www.akc.org

Obedience clubs are taught by volunteers, so they typically have classes at night. I used to be an instructor - and classes at our club ran betweeen 6 pm and 10 pm on weeknights. When I could make it out, I was taking the PWD to a 8.30 pm class.

You might want to get in touch with your local Frenchy club, or even a local all-breed club - some of them run obedience classes, or will at least know about decent trainers. As in real dog people.
>
>Help!
>
>-m

HTH, and GL

Nita (fleece is my friend)
mom to Neel, January 2003
dog mom to a PWD and a cocker (at the Rainbow Bridge)