Dog rescue mamas, advice please...(long)

[stella]

I think I already know the answer, but I need some affirmation and opinions...

About 3 months ago I got a call to take "Clifford" a 5-6 year old male golden retriever out of our city shelter - a foster for the humane society. I am a sucker for a golden.

I used to be on the board of both the animal shelter and the hs, so once I foster, they're pretty lax and I usually just keep the dog until approached about an adoption. In other words, I don't try to "sell" him.

So I kept Clifford for a couple of months and even treated him for heartworms (at my expense) and then was contacted by a lady looking for a golden.

She has several children, including a 4 year old son (as I do), and Clifford was great with children, and they kept him on trial for a weekend and then adopted him - about 6 weeks ago.

Well, Clifford has apparently been growing more food-aggressive, and today bit the 4 year old twice in the arm while trying to get the child's donuts. The mom had been reading up on food aggression and training Clifford. She made him work for his food - sitting, lying down, etc. She said that Clifford had actually gotten worse since she started training him in this area. The child is okay - the bites (2) did break the skin.

Since I had made a big deal about wanting him back if she couldn't keep him, she called me and I took him.

The question is: Do I have any option but to put him down? He has bitten a child. I can't place him anywhere and I have 2 small children, so I can't risk it myself. I love the dog, but I am nervous about having him here even for tonight.

Also, would you take him to a vet or out to the shelter? For the sake of kindness, I am thinking of a vet, but I'm afraid they will think I am asking to euthanize a perfectly healthy dog. Of course, they know me and know that I have only ever had 2 animals euthanized - both very old, kidney-failing animals.

Also, I am having a hard time being strong on this. Please tell me whether I am on the right track?

thanks,
Claire

[westgre]

I feel for you! I'm a veterinarian and a mother. My DD was bitten in the face by my Labrador Retriever (Winnie)in April. Winnie was 8 years old and I'd had her since she was a puppy. Her aggression also started with food, then progressed toward the cats, then some inter-dog aggression, then she started growling at my DD. For safety, we had always been separating her and DD with a babygate to hopefully keep DD safe, but the Winnie reached over the gate and bit DD. I can't tell you how much guilt I've felt. It was a pretty small bite, but did remove some of her skin from her face. It will leave a scar, and although it'll be small and it could've been much worse, DD will have to deal with that through her tough teenage years when girls are so hard on themselves to begin with. I also felt guilt when I had my Lab euthanized, I stayed with her, but didn't do it myself. However, I didn't have any options. The only homes I felt comfortable adopting her to were family members, and they all already had pets. I couldn't adopt her out with her having bitten a person. And I knew her behavior would not get better, but worse.
I know the guilt you feel, but you really have no other option. This is the best thing for you, your kids, and the dog. Take him to the vet and stay with him and tell him you love him, but it must be done.
Hugs to you and bless you for all you do.

[stella]

Gretchen, thank you for your response. I am always so surprised to hear of a lab or golden biting a child - especially in your case where you had her from puppyhood.

I really don't think there's any other option and I appreciate your insight.

Claire

[ellies mom]

My sister's Golden has never bitten a child, but you really have to watch him, but I agree it seems so rare. Sorry about the choice you have to make. It doesn't seems like an easy choice. What a sad situation. :(

[MommyAllison]

What a tough spot to be in :( I would agree that if you feel uncomfortable with him around your kids, it's best not to keep him. That said, I don't know if it's national rules or just in our state (WA) but when you euthanize a pet you have to sign a form saying that they have not bitten anyone for the past 10 days. The 10 day rule is so that if the dog is rabid, it can be determined and proper measures taken. Of course, the vast majority of dog bites are completely unrelated to rabies, so some vets (and maybe a shelter? not sure) will board the pet for you until the 10 day period is up so that you don't have to keep the dog at home. Good luck with your decision- - putting a pet to sleep is never an easy decision.

Allison
EDD 10-30-05 It's a girl!
http://lilypie.com/days/051030/0/25/1/-8/.png (http://lilypie.com)

[NEVE three BUGS and a BEE]

Only since you asked specifically
Do I have any option but to put him down?

I am hoping the answer is "yes", though understand you are in a terrible situation to be in.

but someone without kiddos might jump at the chance to have this pup.
and while I certainly know pups can bite in a second, I guess I just don't automatically trust the conditions of which a dog bit and was relayed all the time.

in otherwords are you certain of the way the dog acted to the child and that it was unprovoked???

anyway just chimming in since you asked...
So sorry you have to make such a decision, our thoughts are with you as you have to decide.

[Radosti]

On the one hand, I'd say if he is really showing aggression, go ahead and have him put down. No one would blame you for taking that route. I have never adopted out a dog that was aggressive and would never do so in the future.

That said... I've had one dog returned to me due to aggression issues. The family was not dog experienced and I got the distinct impression that the dog tried to show dominance and it terrified them. It also seemed very peculiar that I had spoken to them 5 times in 4 weeks and not once was aggression mentioned until she was diagnosed with demodex. All of a sudden, the husband was calling me telling me that he had the dog outside in the rain, was not letting her back in and was taking her to the HS if I didn't take her back. This is after I told him that I'd take her back in a heartbeat.

While I was wary with the dog, I decided to do everything I could to test the dog for aggression issues. The only thing that came out of all my testing was that she barked at us when she wanted attention. If I didn't know better, I could see how that bark could be interpreted as aggressive. We instituted the time out system. At the first sign of barking, she was told to stop, then was ignored. If that didn't work, she got placed in a separate room for a time out. When she was good for 10 minutes, she was allowed back in the room and shown a great deal of affection and praise for being a good girl. Meanwhile, she was placed on oral Ivomec for the demodectic mange.

A manager at work adopted her not too much later. She and her husband were told the whole story and told to continue with the time outs. At first, she tested them as well with the barking and they were taken aback by how scary she looked while barking. However, they persevered with the time outs and she soon realized that the only way to get attention was by being good. She's still with the family more than a year later with absolutely no incidents.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is that you should put him through several different temperament tests prior to deciding to put him down. Perhaps the lady was not experienced and had allowed him to get out of hand by showing fear. You've not had any problems with him in the several months you've had him. Perhaps there could also be an underlying health issue there? Sometimes a dog who's always been good, but all of a sudden changes behavior is experiencing pain. A vet visit might be in order for a checkup.

I don't want you to think I am criticizing your decision. I would not blame you one bit if you had him put down. He's bitten and that's reason enough. I am just giving you the other view as well. Consider both, then go with what you feel is right. I would not want to be in your shoes.

Rada

[zen_bliss]

there are a lot of red flags in the scenario you describe. i'd make any decision involving euthanasia based on my own observations. i'd hesitate to give a dog a death sentence based on a secondhand report.

having been around the block in rescue, sometimes a family decides the dog isn't working for them and rather than say something that they think will meet with resistance and to avoid guilt, they create a "reason." my experience was that dogs surrendered for alleged child dog bite reports tended to have predictable 'facts': a male child between 3-5 and the bite(s) happened while unsupervised 'just for a second.' there's no way for you to know if the child antagonized the dog on an ongoing basis, what the household dynamics were (if the dog was stressed in other ways, perhaps by noise in a chaotic household or the changes from shelter-foster-rehoming), what kind of "training" the mom was doing particularly given that she reported it got worse after her "training" (excessively punitive, not appropriate to the dog's temperament, etc), whether the family was experienced with owning dogs or just winging it. in this case, they might have heard that goldies are easy and upon finding a dog "work" decided to just throw in the towel.

yes, there are other options. some dogs simply can't handle kids and live out happy lives adopted into families without them. this is a fairly common profile in placement. you might even find that this dog fits into your life.

good luck.

[Marisa6826]

Claire-

I know that it's not uncommon AT ALL to see Frenchies up for adoption that have had biting issues in the past (although it's unfathomable for me to think of a mean Pigdog ;) ). It's just made very clear that the dog will ONLY go to an adopter that has experience with the particular breed and either no kids at all, or only older (12+) ones.

I'd bench any decisions until you can spend time with Clifford and see if he really has gotten any worse, or if there's a bit more to the 'story'. I would also look into having him checked out to see if he's in pain or has some other underlying issue as to why he would have snapped.

FWIW, Tickie (my older girl Frenchie) has lunged at Sophie a few times. She's never actually bitten her (and she really doesn't have teeth at this point), but can really put on a show. However, it has ALWAYS been Sophie's fault. She will taunt, and taunt, and taunt till Tickie can't stand it any more. As much as I try and divert Sophie, sometimes she just doesn't 'get' it till Tickie finally has had enough. I can't say that Sophie didn't deserve it. One of Sophie's favourite times to bug her is when she's asleep. At 11yo (this week!), I don't think that Tick can hear as well anymore, and it just really catches her off guard.

If you DO find that you need to put him down, I would definitely do the vet route. I can't imagine just dropping an animal off at a shelter. ;(

Please let us know what happens

hugs

-m

[Momof3Labs]

Well, I've spent years and years in rescue but have also seen firsthand a dog-on-dog attack (between two Labs) and know how much damage can be inflicted. So, my opinion is that if the dog indeed bit the child (I assume that you've seen the bites yourself?), then he should be euthanized. Perhaps he can live his life happily in a very carefully crafted situation, but there are tons of dogs out there in need of homes who do not have biting issues.

You need to think about your future liability in adopting a dog out with a biting history, and think about any child that dog may come in contact with in the future. Perhaps it is just a child walking past the yard, going to school with a lunchbag in hand. Dog bites can be very damaging, and painful and traumatic to the recipient. Maybe it will never happen again, but even just one more time is one too many that could have been prevented.

Labs and Goldens are having more biting and personality related problems due to their popularity and all of the resulting inbreeding. So, unfortunately, they just don't always live up to their reputation as great family dogs.

[stella]

I really appreciate all your responses and I will try to fill in some of the gaps.

While I had Clifford, he growled at one of my children when they approached him while he had his chewy. But I have seen lots of dogs do that.

I also fed him separately from my dogs. I fed him and my golden together and fed my other two smaller dogs together because he had shown some food aggression with the smaller dogs.

This mom who adopted him has always had dogs and the training she used with Clifford was feeding him his kibble by hand and making him work for it. I don't think she was punitive.

I did not see the bites myself, but she said it broke the skin and that she didn't take the child to the ER, but is watching for signs of infection.

She mentioned that she had tried to move Clifford's food bowl a few days earlier with her foot and that he attacked her shoe while she did so, and on this occasion she was handing her 4 year old child a donut and Clifford bit the child twice on the elbow. I don't know if he thought he was grabbing for the donut with his teeth and missed or whether he was attacking the child to get the child to surrender the donut.

My feeling about it is that I can't be confident placing him anywhere. He is a big dog and could really hurt someone. I also don't want him bounced around from home to home. I am worried about my own children while they walk around with a granola bar (a daily occurrence).

I really was hoping that I could just have him quietly put down at the vet's, and that he would have at least have had a quiet ending, but I have read our city ordinance and I think he has to go into rabies quarantine, and that makes me even sicker. I hate the idea f him staying at the shelter for 10 days of observation only to be put down at that point.

Thank you for all your responses. I have a call in to the shelter director about the quarantine issue, and I am so hating this situation.

[Momof3Labs]

Based on this additional info, I definitely think that you are doing the right thing, but it is too bad about the 10 day quarantine. I assume that he's up to date on his rabies shot, but it doesn't sound like that will make a difference, huh? Hopefully one of your contacts can work with you to make Clifford's last days as kind and as gentle as possible.

((Hugs))

[searchdog]

Definatly check you local ordinances on the quarantine. Here if a dog bites there is the madatory 10 day quarantine or you can have the dog euthanized but then the vet must send the head to a lab so that it can be examined. In most cases people choose the 10 day quarantine. I know that my husband (he is a veterinarian) has boarded dogs through the 10 day quarantine for people and then euthanized for the people at the end. Obviously you have to pay for the boarding but depending on the circumstances some people find that to be the best thing.

[Marisa6826]

Clare-

I'm sorry, but I think Clifford is going to have to be put down.

He doesn't have to be quarantined in a shelter. As long as he's been under your care for at least ten days after a bite, it will be sufficient.

I had to put my cat down after he attacked Jonathan. It was 24hrs after the bite, and I had to go through the awful process of having him tested for rabies (post mortem). The vet told me that if I wanted to wait the 10 days and come back, we wouldn't have to do the rabies screening. I just knew that I wouldn't have the guts to put him down if I did the wait, though.

If you can at ALL wait the time period, do so. The rabies screening is most horrific. I will spare you the details here, but if you want to know what happens, PM me and I will tell you my experience.

Hugs

-m

[zen_bliss]

the details you filled in make it sound very clear. i hope you find a way to keep his last 10 days kind and safe for all of you. i'm so sorry you have to handle this sad situation.

[HannaAddict]

Claire,
I just wanted to say I'm so sorry for you and for the dog. I can't imagine having to make this decision and I was so hoping the facts would shake out where he could be adoptable to a kid free home. But it sounds like that is not likely.

I'm just really sorry.

Kimberly

[HannaAddict]

Claire,
I just wanted to say I'm so sorry for you and for the dog. I can't imagine having to make this decision and I was so hoping the facts would shake out where he could be adoptable to a kid free home. But it sounds like that is not likely.

I'm just really sorry.

Kimberly

[jasabo]

Oh Claire, what a tough situation to be in. It sounds like you're making the right decision though. Like a PP said - there are so many great dogs out there who don't bite and who need homes that it's hard to rationalize risking another bite with this dog. It's so sad though.

I also wanted to say that I think it's great that you're putting so much work into rescuing dogs. I'm in the process of adopting a golden from our local golden rescue organization, and I have so much respect for everyone who works so hard to find dogs good homes. It's hard, and sometimes sad work, and you should be commended for taking it on.

Good luck with this.

Lisa - mom to 2 yr old twin boys

[stella]

I don't feel like this is a good update, but i thought I'd share it.

I spent my lunch hour playing ball with Clifford on the beautiful fall day that it was and then I went to the vet to do the deed. My regular vet was not there and the young vet who was there heard me out, didn't offer advice either way and said she thought that my reasoning was sound, but that the adoptive mom (the one whose son was bitten) had called and she didn't want Clifford euthanized. Her name is Deborah.

So then I really was crying and the vet suggested checking him into quarantine until I had talked to Deborah. I called her and she felt terrible that it had come to this and I had a long, rational conversation with her about how this was the only thing to do in this situation.

And I resolved to go back and take care of it today. So today I happened to mention the situation to a woman I work with and she said her golden had died last summer and she wanted another. Her daughter is 12 and taller than I am (I am saying this for dominance reasons. The bitten child was 4). So I told her the ENTIRE situation and she and I went to visit Clifford at the vet.

I talked to my real vet and he said that in a situation where a dog bites a child he recommends euthanasia EXCEPT where it involves food and then he recommends euth. unless you can find a home with no small children or visiting small children.

Then I called a trainer/boarder who has kept him and she said the same thing. So I am waiting to hear from the woman I work with. I am not going to call her. She will have to take him out of a desire to have him and work with him and not out of pity or delusions of an easy dog.

So no answers, more uncertainty. And a real lack of wanting to put him down on my part. The staff at the vet volunteered that he had no food aggression with them. That they were feeding him by hand and spending time with him to evaluate him.

So I don't know...I'm just spending $13 a day boarding him in quarantine waiting to see if the lady calls. If he has a chance, I figure the fee is worth it, but I am not really all that hopeful.

You are all so helpful and I am once again in awe of the dog knowledge and support on this board. Thanks.
Claire

[tarabenet]

Hugs, Claire! Horrible position you're in. I hope you find your answer soon, and that whichever way it goes, you can be OK with it.

Benet

[NEVE three BUGS and a BEE]

I agree with the vet that if it involves food or a child even trying to ride a pup who might have bad hips etc...

sorry pecking w b in arms or i'd be more fluffy in response...but i really do agree with the vet and hope a home comes forward for this pup.

our thoughts are w/you!

[dules]

This might seem a silly question but what about adopting him out to a no-children, no-pets home? Either a child-free couple or an older couple whose kids are teens/college or grown?

I understand if you don't feel comfortable with that, but at the same time hate to see a dog given a death sentence because he's not good with kids. I see dogs listed as no-pets, no-kids, on Petfinder.org all the time. I also have friends with dogs whom we cannot visit in their home without the dogs being locked up or put out in their (fenced) yard because they are concerned as to how the dog will react to DD.

By all means I think you need to get him out of your house, for your sanity and your kids' safety. Would a Golden Rescue find him a foster family?


Best,
Mary

[Momof3Labs]

A reputable rescue group would not place a dog with a history of biting. Not being good with kids (or "unknown" around kids) is different than having bitten a child.

The problem is that even a no-children home may still have kids who pass by on the way to school, play in the yard next door, grandchildren or nieces/nephews who come to visit (even if there aren't any at the time of adoption). And not everyone is equally diligent about keeping a dog such as this away from any and all children.

While I also hate to see a dog with a bite history given a death sentence, I would hate even more to see another child bitten by a dog with a known history. JMO, though, after 11 years of working with Lab rescue groups!

[Momof3Labs]

Claire, wow, this is getting tougher on you!! I think what is important about this situation is that the dog wasn't being teased with food by the child, nor was the child invading the dog's food space. It was the simple combination of the child plus food (being handed to the child) that set him off. Next time, it could be a child walking past the fenced yard on the way home from school, eating a cookie.

If the woman you work with is willing to accept the liability (and it is huge - if he bites again, and she knows that he has a history of biting...) and be 100% diligent about keeping him away from any and all children - no walks, no park, no unsupervised time outside, etc. - then maybe this is your answer.

But I've been working with rescue for 11 years now, and there's no way I'd place him. Once you place him, you lose control over how his issue is managed, and IMO it's just not worth the risk.

[stella]

I really appreciate your response and this is probably where we are heading.

I spoke to the adoptive mom yesterday to ask her one more time exactly what happened and learned (I thought I had this down) that mom was NOT in the room but that Clifford had taken "his" bag of donuts up onto the couch to eat them and the child was bitten.

I don't know if Clifford lunged, I don't know if the child approached him and tried to take away "his" donuts. From Clifford being on teh couch I can see that we have some real issues about whose house this is and whose donuts these are and where the child ranks in Clifford's hierarchy.

Your response is my initial reaction to the situation, and I think it's probably right. It's the emerging details that are tearing me up and muddying my resolve.

[saschalicks]

Claire,
I am so so so sorry. I had to put down a dog due to biting issues and I will never forget the anguish as long as I live. The vet agreed it was the best thing to do, but I still mourn for my Charlie. I keep his pictures close. I only had him 3 weeks, and he is still so planted in my memory. Please know that whatever way this goes you are doing the best you can. {{{{Hugs}}}}

[HannaAddict]

Claire,
The new facts that keep surfacing would trouble me too. It sounds like there wasn't much supervision. I know he should never have bit someone, especially a child, but with the food and no idea what really happened since the adult wasn't in the room, I am hoping that maybe he can find a better home with adults who can work on training, etc. Not all dogs can be with toddlers/preschoolers. Your situation is so hard. I know you've been through a lot on the four legged front lately. Hang in there.

Kimberly

[NEVE three BUGS and a BEE]

I didn't know if your board emails go to a spam folder (mine do though I check it every few times a month).

If I can help let me know.

[Momof3Labs]

Boy, she is making it tough on you!! Which story is true? Did she change her story because she didn't want the dog put down, or did she not want the dog put down because she didn't tell you the truth up front? I've even known people to make up stories (not usually this drastic, though) just to get a dog out of their house quickly (when the real reason for getting rid of the dog was something silly like shedding or they were leaving for vacation and didn't want to pay boarding).

Did your co-worker ever follow up on the dog?

[NEVE three BUGS and a BEE]

possibly untrue story...
Sadly the story leaves you to have to make the choice which so is not fair!!!! If people don't want pups they make up all kinds of things, and don't realize how those of us who want to help make decisions based on that.

I also don't just think of food I also think of hip issues...I have two dogs who had hip replacemnts as young pups (spinny at 1 1/2 and buoy at about 2 1/2) so any child putting preassure might have gotten a response from them. Maybe not a bite but it is not hard to get in the way of teeth at even a "bark".

I know it doesn't help for me to suspect that this persons story is different than what they told you originally...

[stella]

I called her when I learned she had been calling the vet, and said that I have to get my facts straight. What EXACTLY happened? And that's when I realized she wasn't in the room and I got that story about the dog was on the couch with the donuts.

Truly, I am no longer sure that this is an unsalvageable dog. I had him for 6 weeks living in my house and he was not a problem. Well, he was a problem because he was big and because he wants to dig out of my yard, but no aggression problems with my kids. And he was very much a member of our family during that time.

I am, however, sensitive to dog dominance issues, and I would not have allowed the dog on the furniture. Especially a large male (albeit neutered), so the big question in my mind is to what extent was he running the show at their house before the biting incident?

I sound like I am excusing him - maybe I am. I truly don't know what to do and I am letting him hang out in quarantine hoping to be struck by inspiration in the next few days...

You guys are awesome, by the way.

[NEVE three BUGS and a BEE]

first of all big hugs,
I don't know if you got my email..if you did I did not get a response if you sent one...

But if you are anywhere in about 3 states from NC I will help you and am offering to be the inspiration that maybe you are asking for. I will come get pooch or see if my network can come pooch and find a good home for him.

I can PROMISE you that if you are willing to trust me on this.

And with that I promise myself never to open a dog rescue thread again (laughing at self when I need it most so please allow me to laugh at self at this moment)...

We are here for you and I hope that you know my offer is genuine. I think this dog is salvageable from everything you have said...and I am willing to grab him and help for several reasons
1. I trust my gut instinct on this enough to do it
2. I know you have done your GREAT deed and then some with him
3. I know you feel awkward about placing him from what you have been told

so I hope this helps...
I PROMISE you if you live close enough to me where I can pull this off I will do it!!!!

PLease email me off line at my first name @ nc.rr.com
If you are interested in this.

I am so sorry you are going thru this...