BBB Truce & thanks for the education

[JulieL]

I almost bit my tongue all the way through when I saw the post that a yahoo group had been made in the name of those "progressives" who wanted to talk about the PBS special - in the name of liberalism. I thought about posting about how offended I was by it, but let it pass. Now I see members are advertising the off shoot board as the BBB progressive board or progressive/liberal board. I can't believe that those who say they want to talk in an educated manner about these topics would so happily allienate those on the opposite side (conservative/moderate). It comes off as if that those on the other side are backwards or something to that degree. Maybe it was never intended to put those with other points of view in a corner, but nevertheless it leaves a bad taste in my mouth as I am of that "other side". I really wish that points of politics would be seen on the Lounge as more of a respectful debate - not a bashing of one party.

Progressive: making progress; advancing to something better; improving

I hardly think of myself as anything other than an individual striving for progression. I really think calling this board an progressive board instead of progressive liberalism is offensive.

I was going to just e-mail the two members on the off shoot board that are advertising the group, but realized that I had no clue who else was on it, so this is the only way I can contact all of you at once. Not to mention I would like other members to read this and remember, while a liberal lean seems to be more seen in the majority of active members - it's not that way for all, and I think tact for the conservative/moderate view should be given. I love debates, but only ones given respect for the opposite side - otherwise it's just bashing and name calling. I think the members advertising the board are more than able to give this kind of respect, and don't think they realized that this could be taken in this manner.

Thanks.

[aliceinwonderland]

I have read your post twice and an not sure I understand what exactly is offending you.

We like to think of ourselves as progressive, if you also think you fit in that category, you are welcome to apply for membership. I do not see how the way I define myself excludes and offends you.

[Moneypenny]

I can't quite tell if you are upset about the existence of the other group or the manner in which it is being advertised, but nevertheless, I feel like the fact that someone is upset at all is really the crux of the problem. I'm not speaking to liberals or conservatives or any "group" in particular, but it seems to me that when debates happen, people get upset. Now that a group has been formed to try to limit the amount of debating on the board, people are upset. I'm not quite sure how to make everyone happy...

ETA: For some reason I find those whole discussion to be fairly hilarious! I know people are voicing very serious opinions, and I honestly don't mean to offend anyone, but I feel like getting out my little megaphone, donning a cheerleader outfit, and leading us in a round of the "We can get along! Yes we can! We are all adults! Yes we are!" cheer. Then again, maybe I've just had too much sugar today...

Susan
mama to my cutie pie, Avery
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]
We made it to a year!

[pritchettzoo]

Why would it be any different from a Progressive Conservative group? If members want to discuss how to further or better their political party (as you have defined) on a private board, how is that tactless?

I'm not a member of the group; I just don't understand.

There's a Christian group as well--is that disrespectful of other religions?

Anna
Mama to Gracie (Sept '03) and Eli (July '05)

[octmom]

FWIW, I was e-mailed by someone about joining the Christian offshoot board sometime last year and I thanked the person for the invitation and politely declind. I think there are lots of little offshoots of this board, they're just not all advertised.

Jerilyn
DS, Sean 10/03
expecting #2! EDD April 1, 2006, but anticipating a C/S in March

"Baby makes days shorter, nights longer, home happier, and love stronger."

[JulieL]

Well maybe I'm upset and offended out of not understanding the group. I was under then understanding that the group was for those for abortion, against Alito , and other such topics. It seemed to me that the group was for progressive liberals. So calling it progressive in that manner, makes it sound like only liberals are progressive. But the group was called BBB progressives. I did not get the idea that the group was for those who feel progressive on politics, and that all coming from whatever pto were to be included. Now if I'm wrong and it's a group for whomever then I appologize. But Katie's signature just made that idea more affirmed, but maybe I took it the wrong way. Could I say "HIP HIP HORAY, ALITO MADE THE DAY" - and still join?

I don't care if a progressive conservative board was made. I don't mind at all that the board was made. Yes there are lots of off shoot boards. But I think if you are going to advertise it on the BBB Lounge, then tact should be used on the way the board is named.

[JulieL]

Well maybe I'm upset and offended out of not understanding the group. I was under then understanding that the group was for those for abortion, against Alito , and other such topics. It seemed to me that the group was for progressive liberals. So calling it progressive in that manner, makes it sound like only liberals are progressive. But the group was called BBB progressives. I did not get the idea that the group was for those who feel progressive on politics, and that all coming from whatever pto were to be included. Now if I'm wrong and it's a group for whomever then I appologize. But Katie's signature just made that idea more affirmed, but maybe I took it the wrong way. Could I say "HIP HIP HORAY, ALITO MADE THE DAY" - and still join?

I don't care if a progressive conservative board was made. I don't mind at all that the board was made. Yes there are lots of off shoot boards. But I think if you are going to advertise it on the BBB Lounge, then tact should be used on the way the board is named.

[kedss]

As the PP said, the group was formed to provide a place for debate/discussion in a safe environment for folks who see themselves as progressive with a liberal bent. There was no intention to offend anyone with a different viewpoint.

[kedss]

As the PP said, the group was formed to provide a place for debate/discussion in a safe environment for folks who see themselves as progressive with a liberal bent. There was no intention to offend anyone with a different viewpoint.

[aliceinwonderland]

"Well maybe I'm upset and offended out of not understanding the group"

Do you have to understand the group for it to exist??

[aliceinwonderland]

"Well maybe I'm upset and offended out of not understanding the group"

Do you have to understand the group for it to exist??

[JulieL]

Well what if I started a board called progressive feeding moms - for only those who breastfeed, then it would alienate the moms who FF wouldn't it. That doesn't matter, unless I'm advertising it on the board that holds moms who BF and FF: where the FF mom would feel "unprogressive"

[JulieL]

Well what if I started a board called progressive feeding moms - for only those who breastfeed, then it would alienate the moms who FF wouldn't it. That doesn't matter, unless I'm advertising it on the board that holds moms who BF and FF: where the FF mom would feel "unprogressive"

[crayonblue]

I think that Julie is offended by how the group was/is advertised but not at all by the group itself. I don't want to speak for Julie but that is what I am getting from her post.

Maybe the members of the group could advertise as just a "Liberal" group? Seems that would cover the intent and not offend anyone.

[crayonblue]

I think that Julie is offended by how the group was/is advertised but not at all by the group itself. I don't want to speak for Julie but that is what I am getting from her post.

Maybe the members of the group could advertise as just a "Liberal" group? Seems that would cover the intent and not offend anyone.

[JulieL]

I agree the intent was not to offend, but it did. I just wish people would think about how things can be taken, but now you know could you advertise in private or change the name please.

[JulieL]

I agree the intent was not to offend, but it did. I just wish people would think about how things can be taken, but now you know could you advertise in private or change the name please.

[kath68]

I, too, am confused by what you find offensive. Is it that the group uses the term "progressive" to self-identify, in a way you disagree with? Why does the label matter so much? Isn't the purpose behind the group what is paramount to this current discussion? Or is the purpose what you find offensive?

Fact is, "liberal" has been turned into meaning something that is really doesn't, so "progressive" is actually a broader, more acurate, and more inviting term, IMO. Isn't that a good thing? Many dems do't identify with the term liberal anymore, so I totally understand why group who will mainly be dems (but not exclusively so) would choose another word.

I thought the off-shoot group was a respectful way to move discussions which are *not* the purpose of the lounge to another location. That is why I expressed interest in joining it. It is not exclusive, and people are welcome to apply. Yes, one of the criteria is that people have some common perspecitves politically, but there is still room for disagreement. Moreover, conservatives can certainly start an off-shoot group too -- that is what free speech is all about. The more speech the better, IMO.

I actually see the group as a way to respect the conservatives here; it will remove much of the useless and depressing party-bashing. Progressives (or insert whatever word you prefer here) can raise and discuss issues they want to -- yes, like abortion -- without upsetting people. Then when political issues are posted here, we can have the thoughtful and respectful and well-informed discussions we all enjoy.

I fully expect that political discussions will still happen here, and I am looking forward to having those discussions with the intelligent, well informed women who frequent this board -- of both sides.

[kath68]

I, too, am confused by what you find offensive. Is it that the group uses the term "progressive" to self-identify, in a way you disagree with? Why does the label matter so much? Isn't the purpose behind the group what is paramount to this current discussion? Or is the purpose what you find offensive?

Fact is, "liberal" has been turned into meaning something that is really doesn't, so "progressive" is actually a broader, more acurate, and more inviting term, IMO. Isn't that a good thing? Many dems do't identify with the term liberal anymore, so I totally understand why group who will mainly be dems (but not exclusively so) would choose another word.

I thought the off-shoot group was a respectful way to move discussions which are *not* the purpose of the lounge to another location. That is why I expressed interest in joining it. It is not exclusive, and people are welcome to apply. Yes, one of the criteria is that people have some common perspecitves politically, but there is still room for disagreement. Moreover, conservatives can certainly start an off-shoot group too -- that is what free speech is all about. The more speech the better, IMO.

I actually see the group as a way to respect the conservatives here; it will remove much of the useless and depressing party-bashing. Progressives (or insert whatever word you prefer here) can raise and discuss issues they want to -- yes, like abortion -- without upsetting people. Then when political issues are posted here, we can have the thoughtful and respectful and well-informed discussions we all enjoy.

I fully expect that political discussions will still happen here, and I am looking forward to having those discussions with the intelligent, well informed women who frequent this board -- of both sides.

[JulieL]

Yes that is right, thanks Lana for clarifying what I could not ;)

[JulieL]

Yes that is right, thanks Lana for clarifying what I could not ;)

[icunurse]

So, are you more upset with the use of the term "progressive" in the group title or the formation of a liberal-leaning private group?

FWIW, as a proud FF mom, anyone can start their own group for BF and call it Proud BF's, ProgressiveBF's, whatever. Advertise it as much as wanted. I got bigger fish to fry...


Traci
~Connor's Mom 02/2004~
Agency paperwork completed - waiting for #2!

[icunurse]

So, are you more upset with the use of the term "progressive" in the group title or the formation of a liberal-leaning private group?

FWIW, as a proud FF mom, anyone can start their own group for BF and call it Proud BF's, ProgressiveBF's, whatever. Advertise it as much as wanted. I got bigger fish to fry...


Traci
~Connor's Mom 02/2004~
Agency paperwork completed - waiting for #2!

[tarabenet]

If a group gives people a place to discuss issues on which they feel strongly, without causing stressful, contentious threads on the big board, it seems like a good idea. And if a group imposes rules on itself that mirror the BBB ones (respect, no naming names, etc.), so much the better.

The Progressives group does both of those. As such it should make everyone who disagrees or doesn't care to read those threads very happy to have the discussions taken elsewhere.

[tarabenet]

If a group gives people a place to discuss issues on which they feel strongly, without causing stressful, contentious threads on the big board, it seems like a good idea. And if a group imposes rules on itself that mirror the BBB ones (respect, no naming names, etc.), so much the better.

The Progressives group does both of those. As such it should make everyone who disagrees or doesn't care to read those threads very happy to have the discussions taken elsewhere.

[Zansu]

You state "I think tact for the conservative/moderate view should be given." That is exactly the purpose of the offshoot group: to give a certain subset of BBB membership a forum in which to discuss topics that may not or should not be discussed tactfully on the BBB.

Conservative: "The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order."

ref http://www.answers.com/topic/conservatism

Liberal: "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded."

ref http://www.answers.com/liberal

By definition, political liberals are progressive, while political conservatives are static.

Many people's signatures contain items that others could find offensive or troubling. As always, if something bothers you, please don't read it.

[Zansu]

You state "I think tact for the conservative/moderate view should be given." That is exactly the purpose of the offshoot group: to give a certain subset of BBB membership a forum in which to discuss topics that may not or should not be discussed tactfully on the BBB.

Conservative: "The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order."

ref http://www.answers.com/topic/conservatism

Liberal: "Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded."

ref http://www.answers.com/liberal

By definition, political liberals are progressive, while political conservatives are static.

Many people's signatures contain items that others could find offensive or troubling. As always, if something bothers you, please don't read it.

[american_mama]

I think the phrase "progressive" is often used as a synonym for "liberal" so I think naming the group this is just part of a larger trend. You might disagree with the implication that only liberals are progressive (which is why I avoid using the word progressive), but your beef is then with the whole trend and not just the BBB group. Names of political groups often have a spin to it: it's why groups against abortion say pro-life and groups for it say pro choice, each to focus on the salient issue as they see it.

I think it's really good that this group was started, that it took debate an a specific hot issue (abortion) and probably other hot issues into a private forum so as not to get the whole Lounge in an uproar. I think doing so appropriately responds to the requests of many to limit or divert political debate away from the Lounge, and I think the moderators of a group that is clearly about partisan politics have the right to advertise that the group is partisan.

[american_mama]

I think the phrase "progressive" is often used as a synonym for "liberal" so I think naming the group this is just part of a larger trend. You might disagree with the implication that only liberals are progressive (which is why I avoid using the word progressive), but your beef is then with the whole trend and not just the BBB group. Names of political groups often have a spin to it: it's why groups against abortion say pro-life and groups for it say pro choice, each to focus on the salient issue as they see it.

I think it's really good that this group was started, that it took debate an a specific hot issue (abortion) and probably other hot issues into a private forum so as not to get the whole Lounge in an uproar. I think doing so appropriately responds to the requests of many to limit or divert political debate away from the Lounge, and I think the moderators of a group that is clearly about partisan politics have the right to advertise that the group is partisan.

[american_mama]

double post

[american_mama]

double post

[calebsmama03]

Well Said Kathy. I don't understand why this particular group name is offensive? Like it or not, the term "progressive" has become associated with a more "liberal" type viewpoint in society as a whole so I don't think it is offensive to use common terminology in naming the group. Say, for example, I don't agree with the "GOP" terminology in reference to the republican party. I can't force society as a whole to change that reference just because I don't agree with them, even though I think that terminology can make democrats feel "alienated", KWIM?

We don't generally get to control what other groups call themselves. If it's not something you're interested in, don't join. I think the group serves a good purpose and though I am not member I appreciate it's existance and the way it was developed and is being maintained.
Lynne
Mommy to C 3/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
And Miss Purple, 5/05

[calebsmama03]

Well Said Kathy. I don't understand why this particular group name is offensive? Like it or not, the term "progressive" has become associated with a more "liberal" type viewpoint in society as a whole so I don't think it is offensive to use common terminology in naming the group. Say, for example, I don't agree with the "GOP" terminology in reference to the republican party. I can't force society as a whole to change that reference just because I don't agree with them, even though I think that terminology can make democrats feel "alienated", KWIM?

We don't generally get to control what other groups call themselves. If it's not something you're interested in, don't join. I think the group serves a good purpose and though I am not member I appreciate it's existance and the way it was developed and is being maintained.
Lynne
Mommy to C 3/03
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif[/img][/url]
And Miss Purple, 5/05

[JulieL]

I think the phrase "progressive" is often used as a synonym for "liberal" so I think naming the group this is just part of a larger trend


I guess that trend hasn't blown into the midwest - where we tend to use definitions as they were origianlly defined, unless we're talking about refined beer, and anything mentioned other than Budwieser would just make you down right uppity ;)

[JulieL]

I think the phrase "progressive" is often used as a synonym for "liberal" so I think naming the group this is just part of a larger trend


I guess that trend hasn't blown into the midwest - where we tend to use definitions as they were origianlly defined, unless we're talking about refined beer, and anything mentioned other than Budwieser would just make you down right uppity ;)

[psophia17]

My initial response when I saw the advertisment in question was "thank goodness, a way to keep drama off the boards."

I always try not to read the political or otherwise drama-filled threads, because they tend to go downhill so fast with one side bashing the other, and it comes from both sides. While I generally agree with one side and disagree with the other, I don't want to participate in any way because the drama will just keep escalating.

It's bad enough when the issue is parenting related - BF v. FF, vax v. no vax, circ v. no-circ - but when it steps beyond that into politics? It's just not good.

My response to the creation of another board, and of the promotion of that board, was "I am going to email the poster and find out what this is about." Which I did. Now, whether I chose to become a member or I chose not to, I don't have to worry about getting involved in any bashing on the big boards, which are a haven for me, because another outlet has been created for at least half of the parties involved.

The BBB knitting group was created to give those interested in knitting a knitting-oriented place to talk about it without disturbing non-knitters. I believe the same is true for this group - to give those who want to discuss progressing from the current political climate (which we can all agree is conservative and republican) to a liberaly and democratic one, without disrupting the big boards.

FWIW, there is a brief explanation of the Progressive Party as it relates to US History available here: http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-progressive-party

[psophia17]

My initial response when I saw the advertisment in question was "thank goodness, a way to keep drama off the boards."

I always try not to read the political or otherwise drama-filled threads, because they tend to go downhill so fast with one side bashing the other, and it comes from both sides. While I generally agree with one side and disagree with the other, I don't want to participate in any way because the drama will just keep escalating.

It's bad enough when the issue is parenting related - BF v. FF, vax v. no vax, circ v. no-circ - but when it steps beyond that into politics? It's just not good.

My response to the creation of another board, and of the promotion of that board, was "I am going to email the poster and find out what this is about." Which I did. Now, whether I chose to become a member or I chose not to, I don't have to worry about getting involved in any bashing on the big boards, which are a haven for me, because another outlet has been created for at least half of the parties involved.

The BBB knitting group was created to give those interested in knitting a knitting-oriented place to talk about it without disturbing non-knitters. I believe the same is true for this group - to give those who want to discuss progressing from the current political climate (which we can all agree is conservative and republican) to a liberaly and democratic one, without disrupting the big boards.

FWIW, there is a brief explanation of the Progressive Party as it relates to US History available here: http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-progressive-party

[saschalicks]

So many PP's have said what I would say. I think that in the past few weeks a lot of discussions have been very "hot" and therefore realized didn't belong on the BBB. The fact that a group was created to take heated discussions away from this group is OUTSTANDING in my opinion. I'm not offended by whatever they call themselves b/c even if I wanted to join, or not, the fact that you have to "join" means that it's a choice and not pushed on me. Julie, I respect that you are offended b/c I cannot be your gauge, but I think here we should just respect that the group has taken the heated discussion elsewhere, no matter what they call themselves.

If you want to debate with that group then by all means join, if not, then ignore it.

This discussion in general has made me wonder why I'm here too. Basically it's for mommy discussions. I'm really glad that things are being taken elsewhere that are heated and have no business here in the first place.

[saschalicks]

So many PP's have said what I would say. I think that in the past few weeks a lot of discussions have been very "hot" and therefore realized didn't belong on the BBB. The fact that a group was created to take heated discussions away from this group is OUTSTANDING in my opinion. I'm not offended by whatever they call themselves b/c even if I wanted to join, or not, the fact that you have to "join" means that it's a choice and not pushed on me. Julie, I respect that you are offended b/c I cannot be your gauge, but I think here we should just respect that the group has taken the heated discussion elsewhere, no matter what they call themselves.

If you want to debate with that group then by all means join, if not, then ignore it.

This discussion in general has made me wonder why I'm here too. Basically it's for mommy discussions. I'm really glad that things are being taken elsewhere that are heated and have no business here in the first place.

[psophia17]

Julie -

You are hereby invited to my house to sample some good, Canadian beer. :)

[psophia17]

Julie -

You are hereby invited to my house to sample some good, Canadian beer. :)

[KBecks]

I'm a conservative, and it doesn't bother me much at all. If the more liberal mamas here want to gather and chat among themselves, why not?

I'll admit that I'm a little curious what they're talking about, but as a conservative, I feel that if I were invited to join, I'd probably feel like I didn't fit in anyway. And I wouldn't want to get into heated debates with the liberal mamas -- they're welcome to their own opinions.

Perhaps there should also be a politics / current events Yahoo group that is open to all ideologies, but I don't mind that the liberals want to congregate with each other exclusively.

As for the progressive name, it's just a use of words. It doesn't mean much in reality, IMO.

[KBecks]

I'm a conservative, and it doesn't bother me much at all. If the more liberal mamas here want to gather and chat among themselves, why not?

I'll admit that I'm a little curious what they're talking about, but as a conservative, I feel that if I were invited to join, I'd probably feel like I didn't fit in anyway. And I wouldn't want to get into heated debates with the liberal mamas -- they're welcome to their own opinions.

Perhaps there should also be a politics / current events Yahoo group that is open to all ideologies, but I don't mind that the liberals want to congregate with each other exclusively.

As for the progressive name, it's just a use of words. It doesn't mean much in reality, IMO.

[KBecks]

double post

[KBecks]

duplicate post

[KBecks]

double post

[KBecks]

duplicate post

[KBecks]

...and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded."

Oh, I wish more liberals were more tolerant of conservatives and conservative ideas! ;-) LOL

[DebbieJ]

>So many PP's have said what I would say. I think that in the
>past few weeks a lot of discussions have been very "hot" and
>therefore realized didn't belong on the BBB. The fact that a
>group was created to take heated discussions away from this
>group is OUTSTANDING in my opinion. I'm not offended by
>whatever they call themselves b/c even if I wanted to join, or
>not, the fact that you have to "join" means that it's a choice
>and not pushed on me. Julie, I respect that you are offended
>b/c I cannot be your gauge, but I think here we should just
>respect that the group has taken the heated discussion
>elsewhere, no matter what they call themselves.

ITA with Candice. I do not follow politics at all but appreciate the fact that those who do follow this stuff have created a "safe" space for themselves in order to keep a "safe" space here.

~ deb
DS born at home 12/03
BFARed for 20 months and 6 days

http://www.bfar.org/members/fora/style_avatars/Ribbons/18months-bfar.jpg

[pritchettzoo]

Actually, the FIRST definition of "progressive" is "1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters"

Furthermore, The Progressive Party formed under Theodore Roosevelt in 1912, "advocating popular control of government, direct primaries, the initiative, the referendum, woman suffrage, etc"

Anna
Mama to Gracie (Sept '03) and Eli (July '05)

[MelissaTC]

Sorry you were offended by the name but quite frankly, I don't think the group should be told to change their name because you were offended. If a group of people on the BBB decide to branch off to discuss something further, they can call themselves the collection of purple people eaters for all I care. I don't think anyone had the intention of offending and I agree with the pp on the widespread use of progressive in describing liberalism.

[kijip]

I hate, hate, hate the term "progressive" too as applied to a group of politically liberal individuals. Ironic, huh? Wanna get me to vote against you or an issue at a convention or whatnot? Use the words "grassroots" or "progressive" in your ditty and I will be too busy rolling my eyes to hear that the question has been called. But you know what? I don't get to decide for everyone and I don't get to set the language used by the whole of my political movement. The term "Liberal" has come to be used in a manner that is slightly derogative. In my extensive political work across a huge spectrum of voters and individuals I find that there are those that call themselves progressive in a lefty sort of way but who refuse to use the term "liberal". Me, I use liberal. If you walked up to me and asked me about my politics I would say unashamed: "I am a liberal Democrat who is fiscally conservative". I would NEVER use the word progressive for fear of making my own stomach turn. When I and others set up the group, I just sensed that the same thing applied here- that those that self identify as progressive who would otherwise fit in might not join if dubbed "liberal". So I used the language as it is being used in living English and let myself roll my eyes at myself for using the term.

Julie, you said "I love debates, but only ones given respect for the opposite side - otherwise it's just bashing and name calling." The group was started NOT as a "debate" forum but a discussion group/community of similarly minded folks much like a group of knitters or Christians or lawyers might form a group. We discuss public affairs and events and no mention is ever made of non-members who are not public officials (doing so would violate the rules and result in a poster there being banned). I am sure we can all agree that there is no point in debating certain news issues- equally intelligent and concerned sides will not reconcile their opinions. As a parent who follows/participates in politics I found no outlet on the BBB to discuss the family issues that mattered to me the most with the gals I have become friends with. This board seemed like a decent solution. To quote a previous poster: to give a certain subset of BBB membership a forum in which to discuss topics that may not or should not be discussed tactfully on the BBB.

Once I am certain that the first swoop of members has joined, I will suggest to our little progressive/liberal group that we make it invite only and stop advertising. Why didn't I do that to begin with? Because I am a super busy homemaker and board member with an auction looming. Advertising in my siggie was plain faster and easier.

Before the offshoot board formed, I was about a day away for quitting BBB. This little extra outlet (fast, easy, fun) is keeping me in the community and continuing to contribute to the whole board and learning from the whole board.

[alkagift]

Although you may have been surprised about Dems using the "progressive" label, it's really not new.

You may be aggravated with Dems using the progressive label, which you think means that conservatives aren't, and I'm aggravated that Conservatives have absconded with the "moderate" label implying that Dems aren't. Eh, c'est la vie.

Allison

[wagner36]

LOL! Being from Minnesota originally, and now from Chicago, I would most definitely disagree with the definitions (although both are traditionally more liberal states/cities (maybe not Minnesota so much anymore with the Republican governor and the concealed weapons laws), but the beer comment almost made me wet my pants!

[wagner36]

Ack! There's a knitting group?? Do tell - how did I miss that! I'm knitting my first sweater and about to run out of yarn and don't know how to attach the next one!!!

[Saccade]

http://s14.invisionfree.com/BBB_Knitters/

-- Saccade

DS #1, 7/13/05
http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/eleeleabk20050713_-8_My+child+is.png[/img][/url]

[kijip]

Susan-

LOL! Your post made me smile. I really agree with the sentiment- what exactly do we all want?

[psophia17]

I think this link will work:

http://s14.invisionfree.com/BBB_Knitters

If not, look for one of lmariana's posts in the feeding forum, she is the moderator and it's in her siggie.

[psophia17]

OMG! I was all ready to defend my post in some way, and now I almost wet my pants I'm laughing so hard :)

[momathome]

I consider myself very liberal and I am definitely pro-choice but I very much take offense to your suggesting that those who are part of this group are "for abortion" - there is a world of difference between wanting a right and a choice protected for the sake of letting women be responsible for their own bodies with no one else making decisions for them then being pro-abortion. I am NOT pro-abortion but I am very much pro-choice. I am thrilled that this group was started so that the drama could be taken out of the lounge and like-minded people could get together to discuss there similar points of view. Exactly what is offensive about that?

[Saccade]

Well, it's true, we don't mince words or spare feelings over on the knitting board (so crewel of us)! Just kidding, but seriously, we can all bond over woolly things, be they red, blue, or purple.

-- Saccade

DS #1, 7/13/05
http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/eleeleabk20050713_-8_My+child+is.png[/img][/url]

[kijip]

I hesistate to respond but I wish ALL were more tolerant of all! Listening to public officials talk, I don't think one side or the other has an upper hand here (speaking generally, not about the BBB).

[mamicka]

I had heard of the BBB Knitting group but I didn't know that crocheters were welcome as well. How do I join?

Allison

[Saccade]

Click the link and I think you can sign on from there...

-- Saccade

DS #1, 7/13/05
http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/eleeleabk20050713_-8_My+child+is.png[/img][/url]

[kep]

This is one of the first threads I've read discussing potentially contraversial issues that has not very quickly turned into a name-calling "shouting" match. Everyone's posts are well thought out, and clearly say what the poster is trying to communicate, without being inflamatory. Woo-Hoo! :)

Kelli
Mommy to my beautiful little boy, Luke (April 2003)

"Before you were conceived I wanted you. Before you were born I loved you.
Before you were here an hour I would die for you. This is the miracle of life."
Maureen Hawkins

[jec2]

when peple from the "chicago" bbb yahoo group post/advertise about their group, I don't get offended because it excludes me since I live in California. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/fragend/confused-smiley-013.gif

[saschalicks]

I had a whole post written that didn't show up, but the truth is Kathy you said exactly what I would.

ETA: OK I guess my post did show up, but I still agree with Kathy ;)

[Calmegja2]

What Kathy said.

100 times over.

[himom]

In my experience whenever there were political offshoot boards from a general board the primary purpose was to talk politics. But a big sideline ended up being bashing the opinions, expressions,and occasionally even the persons on the original board who were not members of the offshoot. Much drama ensues when it leaks, as such things always must.

You know, stuff like: "I can't believe how ignorant some of the other mothers on the board are. I am afraid to raise my children in a country where these women are teaching their kids these values." Etc etc. Did they name names? Nope. Can it be considered a vicious attack? Absolutely.

Of course, this is only my personal experience (from a college board 6 years ago), but it's left a bad taste in my mouth. It does not necesarily follow that all board offshoots will do the same, but human nature being what it is, sometimes this stuff happens.

So...all I'm asking is, "Please be nice." Watch what you are saying both here and on the other boards. Walk a mile, and remember that the little perspective each of us holds can never be enough to justify condemning and attacking people because of their political opinions. We all have reasons for what we believe, and whether we admit it or not we all believe our values are the absolute best ones. Otherwise, why would we have them? Just remember that others will not always agree. Good parents who love their kids and want the best for them are in both political extremes and they all deserve respect.

Muchos gracias,
Jodi

Edited for spelling!

[tarahsolazy]

I think you should feel free to start one, and call it whatever you'd like. ;)

[Calmegja2]

>
>So...all I'm asking is, "Please be nice." Watch what you are
>saying both here and on the other boards. Walk a mile, and
>remember that the little perspective each of us holds can
>never be enough to justify condemning and attacking people
>because of their political opinions. We all have reasons for
>what we believe, and whether we admit it or not we all believe
>our values are the absolute best ones. Otherwise, why would
>we have them? Just remember that others will not always
>agree. Good parents who love their kids and want the best for
>them are in both political extremes and they all deserve
>respect.
>
>Muchos gracias,
>Jodi

********
Honestly, I have to say that it's not the best assumption to think that those who might join an offshoot board would not have any idea of how to conduct themselves, or how to behave.

We are a community of highly educated and thoughtful women. I think it goes without saying that we can figure out how to handle ourselves, especially on a board, any board, that is outside of BBB.

I know, personally, that I welcome the chance to talk politics and work it all out, without the constraints that sometimes accompany the threads here. I would think, in general, this would be a relief to the community as a whole, not another point of contention.

I trust, as we are all adults here, that we do the very best we can every day, and we can probably conduct ourselves with as much grace as possible. Without the reminder.

This thread feels weird. It feels like we can't win. We get asked repeatedly to take the political hot buttons off the board. We do, and then that becomes an issue.

It's frustrating, and it shouldn't be.

[kedss]

Hi Jodi-

The board was created in the spirit of BBB and we intend to carry on our discussions with respect.

Thanks! :)

[himom]

Kate,

Thanks, I'm sure you guys will have a great time and it'll benefit you all!

Jodi

Edited because for some reason I sounded like Tom Cruise.

[babymama]

I am sorry that you were offended. As others have explained, the term "progressive" is widely used for a person with a "liberal" political perspective. No one here is responsible for coming up with that term. We are using the term to define ourselves, not a different group of people.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be offended, bc that's up to you. I appreciate your honesty.

I just want you to know that the term progressive is really common, and no one here is using it to make anyone else seem backwards (as you've said it sounded to you).

Lydia
Mama to Santiago, born 11/16/03 and
One on the way, due 01/03/06

[marcywench]

Me, four.

[KBecks]

It's only an issue with one poster, who had a particular beef with the term "progressive."

I can imagine how easy it is when there are like-minded folks and no one with very different views for the bashing to begin. I listen to both liberal and conservative talk radio and it happens all the time on both sides.

It's probably normal for similar minded folks to occassionally bitch and moan about the other side. I don't see it as a problem, and I'm glad that if it happens, this new venue will keep it off BBB.

Not to say that any of the wonderful ladies participating will sink to that.

Anyway, I'm sure the new board will do great, have fun!

[KBecks]

I would start a general politics BBB offshoot board if I were so motivatived, but I'm not. I get my political kicks filled from talk radio for now.

Maybe as the presidential primaries come around we'll need that type of forum.

I have a lot of curious questions for the liberal mamas, and I'd be interested in what they think about a number of things, but I can save those questions for later, if/when a bi-partisan forum is created.

[caheinz]

What Jessica said.

I'd also like to add that the vast majority of the discussions there aren't about this board, or even about parenting.

And, to the OP, thanks -- this post has actually brought a lot of other like-minded people to the group. (And no, I'm not trying to be facetious... believe it or not, we've tried to keep the advertising levels DOWN. (We could have started a thread, or kept the original one alive, but instead a *couple* of people put a note in their siggie on a *temporary* basis.)

I know I've always enjoyed being able to have discussions with like-minded people about "politically sensitive" subjects in real life. Since discussions about such subjects here so often degrade, some people decided to start a discussion away from this board. It's no different than any of the other groups, really.

And once this thread slips away, we can all go back to our usual selves here. We, as a nation, are so divided politically right now that simple discourse is difficult on any political topic. So, some of us took our politics elsewhere. Others are free to do the same. If it reduces the strife here, and frees us to discuss topics of our families and children, isn't that a good thing?

[JulieL]

Ok my post partum hormones did NOT know that progressive was a universal term. Where was NPR on that little ditty? Anyway thanks for explaining that progressive wasn't meant personally, I definately and obviously took it that way. Now I won'te embarress myself with someone irl! So the name makes sense to me now - just hope one could see why I took it the way I did. Please enjoy your group - as I enjoy mine. I still think it's an unfair coined term, but so many in our society are. Sorry for the uproar.

[kedss]

LOL:)

[trumansmom]

:) (I'm having trouble getting the smilies to work. Anybody else?)

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04
Independent Consultant, Do-Re-Me & You!

[octmom]

Me too. It's refreshing! :)

Jerilyn
DS, Sean 10/03
expecting #2! EDD April 1, 2006, but anticipating a C/S in March

"Baby makes days shorter, nights longer, home happier, and love stronger."

[aliceinwonderland]

Yes, indeed, thank you to the OP for the (unsolicited) publicity :)

[mudder17]

:)

If the smiley is the first thing in your message, it won't show up as a smiley unless you add a space in front. Does that makes sense?

ETA: And I thought the same thing, but hesitated to post since the last time I made that observation, it made a turn for the worse and got locked. :( But this turned out to be a good, educational discussion for all sides, I think. :) I had no idea there were even disagreements or such about such terms (I've never thought about the terms very much).

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[crayonblue]

Funny that I was thinking quite differently! Almost every single poster was disagreeing with Julie. There was no shouting match because almost everyone was on one side. Just my observation.

I would be much more proud if two sides had a discussion without it turning into a shouting match than one side having a nice discussion.

[trumansmom]

Thanks for the education! This has been happening to me a lot lately. I guess I need to learn to use my words!

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04
Independent Consultant, Do-Re-Me & You!

[mudder17]

But they were doing it in a way that didn't insult her or call her names or anything like that. I think part of it also was that people didn't understand what she was upset about in the first place (some thought she was maybe upset about the existence of the group, which wasn't her problem at all). I didn't initially understand, but once I did, I understood why she was upset, but I also understood that the name is not something that this group chose to try insulting those of us with more conservative leanings. As Katie said, it was to try to be inviting to as many people as possible, even though even some of their members may dislike either the progressive or liberal term.

And actually, this is partly why I hate using terms like this: liberal, conservative, left, right, etc. I think the terms can be too broad or too narrow depending on the situation and person, plus, it somehow implies that every one who is a Republican agrees with everything the Republicans believe and likewise with Democrats. It's why whenever any one asks what I consider myself, I just say I'm a moderate and leave it at that. :) (And no, I am probably not a moderate in everything and am probably liberal in some things and conservative in others.).

And in this case, I think we didn't have a bunch of people chiming in from Julie's point of view because most of us who might have the same beliefs didn't necessarily have a problem with the term. Or if they did, they didn't see it as insulting that Katie chose to use the term in the name of their group. Does that make any sense? Or am I wrong?

But you are right--it would be nice in discussions like this if both sides could freely express their points of view without it turning into a shouting match. But I commend Katie and Eri for taking the politics off board, not because I don't find them interesting and not because I disagree with everything they believe (which I don't) but because past experience has shown that it can pretty quickly downspiral even when we're trying to play nice.

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[aliceinwonderland]

just wanted to chime in that, FWIW, most replies to this post are NOT from existing members of the group.

[mudder17]

> I guess I need to learn to use my words!

LOL, I guess this cold has really befuddled my brain--it took me several readings to understand what you meant! ;)


Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[crayonblue]

No, you are right that it was a civil discussion! I wasn't trying to say that it wasn't. I was just saying that I would like to see more discussions where two points of view are debated without the threads having to be locked! I just think it is easier to keep a thread civil when everyone who replies to it agrees with each other! I'm not making sense...I'm going to bed!

[cleo27]

Hello,

I know I am a bit late chiming in on this thread, but I would just like to say thanks to Julie for your follow-up post here. I felt a bit angry in response to the initial post, but I appreciate your clarification.

I have found everyone's responses very interesting and I think that everything has remained very civil and I do think that both sides were participating.

[hellosmiletoday]

Interesting thread and I've hesitated replying, especially since the issue appears resolved. But I just wanted to express my initial impression when I noticed the signatures about Yahoo group.

First, I dont think there is anything wrong with advertising a BBB offshoot yahoo group, even if it deals with politics. And I can see how it would be beneficial to keep the political threads at a minimum. I just wish that when the advertisement was made, there wasn't a political viewpoint expressed with it. I'm not refering to the term "progressive", but other comments. Hopefully I make sense and if not I could explain further. Often when you see the political expression, it is in a baby-related thread and you were not even expecting to read anything remotely politics related. That said, I dont think the BBB should "censor" any form of political expressions in signatures...b/c that would lead to a slippery slope (i.e. banning BF ads b/c offensive, etc).

Mommy to baby girl 5/04

[cmdunn1972]

Traci,

I hate jumping in on "controversial" threads like this, but I totally understand were you're coming from. If I saw an advertisement for a BBB group called "one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eaters" I'd just say, "Okay, I'm not one of those," and move on. :)

[cmdunn1972]

LOL I assume you must be, as I am, from the St. Louis area (or nearby) originally. :) If you were from Milwaukee, you would have mentioned Pabst or Miller. :P

[cmdunn1972]

I **really** don't want to touch that, but FYI some pro-lifers might take offense because they consider themselves "pro-choice" also. They just think the choice is best made prior to conception.

[MarisaSF]

>I **really** don't want to touch that, but FYI some
>pro-lifers might take offense because they consider themselves
>"pro-choice" also. They just think the choice is best made
>prior to conception.

It's all just semantics really. I've been following this thread with great interest. What is progressive? Moving one way. Up? Down? Left? Right? Well, whoever grabs the term first, I guess.

"Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are jargon.
People can support choices (in general -- like "What should we have for dinner?" or even "What type of birth control should I use today?") and think that women should not be able to obtain abortions. These people are known non-jargon-y as "anti-abortion."

Likewise, people can support living and think that abortion should be legal and accessible. These people are known non-jargon-y as "abortion rights supporters." ETA: yes, I think "rights" might be a debatable term, but that's what I've seen used. ETA: you can sometimes tell the bias of a media outlet by the terms they use: "choice," "life," "abortionists," "unborn," "rights," etc.

Does that make sense? Another example: any of the million political movements could have called themselves the "Grand Ole Party" (GOP), but that got taken by the Republican Party first.

[C99]

>I guess that trend hasn't blown into the midwest - where we
>tend to use definitions as they were origianlly defined,

Or maybe it's just not in your part of the Midwest? I'm in Chicago and the term "progressive," has been tossed around a lot in elections over the past 4 years. Granted, Chicago is largely Democratic, but the immediate surrounding area is largely Republican, so I figure it all evens out. I always thought that the term progressive was closely linked to the Social Democrat movement (that came out of Wisconsin, btw) at the turn of the century.

[cmdunn1972]

Marisa,

I totally understand what you're saying. While I have an opinion on the subject, I try really hard to remain objective. :) I was merely pointing out that some pro-life people might take issue with terminology and call it bias, whether it's meant that way or not. I'm not saying that *I* personally thake offense. I simply wanted to make folks aware that terminology can be misconstrued. In a way they have a point.

Their reasoning is this: Anti-[anything] appears negative. Pro-[anything] appears positive. Those who call themselves "pro-life" object to being called "anti-abortion" in the same way that those who call themselves "pro-choice" object to being called "anti-life". For that reason, in order to avoid offending anyone, perhaps we should call each other what they call themselves (while realizing that neither term is entirely accurate)?

[HannaAddict]

I am not a member of the board that offends you, but I am offended at your remark that you understood the group to be for those "for abortion." I find that remark offensive and insulting and seems to be trying to stir the pot. The women who advertised the board you object to so much are incredibly supportive and loving parents and incredibly supportive to the BBB community. I think your remarks sell them short and the community short. I am less worried about "tact" in how someone names their board when it isn't vulgar (oops, maybe liberal is vulgar :)) than the lack of tact in how you mistakenly labeled the position that women should make personal reproductive decisions for themselves.

Kimberly

[HannaAddict]

Thank you for this post.

Kimberly

[momathome]

Thank you, Kimberly, my point exactly. :)

[momathome]

Okay, now you are just twisting the terminology. When people identify themselves as being pro-life or pro-choice, it is fairly clear what they mean by those labels. I have never heard of anyone who is pro-life identify themselves as being pro-choice as far as a choice being made before conception. There IS a world of difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion and it always amazes me how many pro-lifers cannot distinguish between the 2.

[Calmegja2]

>Okay, now you are just twisting the terminology. When people
>identify themselves as being pro-life or pro-choice, it is
>fairly clear what they mean by those labels. I have never
>heard of anyone who is pro-life identify themselves as being
>pro-choice as far as a choice being made before conception.
>There IS a world of difference between being pro-choice and
>pro-abortion and it always amazes me how many pro-lifers
>cannot distinguish between the 2.
****

ITA.

[aliceinwonderland]

edited because I was told to behave :)

(Thanks Kimberly for your post above)

[momathome]

Eri!!! LMAO! You are too much, girlie. :)

[Calmegja2]

ERI!!! LMAO!!!

[JulieL]

Sorry for offense - was never intended.

edited for peace, not sure it my post would be taken in the wrong "sound"

[JulieL]

Yes I am from St. Louis, where the St. Louis marathon actually goes through the Budweiser brewier!

[cmdunn1972]

The brewery grounds are so pretty! The buildings have such character, and I love how they put Christmas lights up during the holidays. :)

When I was in my 20s some people I knew would go on the brewery tour just for the free beer. ;) I never understood that desperation for alcohol. It's no as if draft beer is that expensive, and Bud is always fresher at the St. Louis bars. :)

Any news on when they'll be knocking down the old Busch Stadium?

[KBecks]

I'm feeling like this discussion has been exhausted.

Now we're starting to see a bit of the abortion teminology debate on this board, which the founders of the other board were trying to avoid.

I feel that the tone is (while civil) becoming more and more aggressive. Julie's original post showed some emotion and alarm, and I think that ruffled a few feathers, but now she's gotten clarification and people seem to be at peace with the new board.

Could we leave it at that?

[cmdunn1972]

Lauren, I was not saying that *I* feel that way. I was only saying that others might feel that way. I realize that there's a difference, and, yes, we all know what the terms actually mean. However, I have heard pro-life people say that they "aren't against choice, but that they feel the choice should be made prior to conception." I'm not saying that I agree, I'm only saying that perhaps we should be aware that those who disagree with the pro-choice movement might see it that way and be offended, especially when some (including the media) insist on calling pro-lifers "anti-abortion".

Just trying to increase sensitivity by increasing awareness of other POVs.

[bunnisa]

I'm only saying that perhaps we should be aware that
>those who disagree with the pro-choice movement might see it
>that way and be offended, especially when some (including the
>media) insist on calling pro-lifers "anti-abortion".
>

Actually, their preferred term is "Anti-Choice" - but I think that's what you meant from the context.

Bethany
mom to one and one on the way!
http://lilypie.com/days/060226/0/8/1/-6/.png
"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-J. Torres

[trumansmom]

I think Katie has a good point. It strikes me that the issue was resolved, no?


Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04
Independent Consultant, Do-Re-Me & You!

[dogmom]

I remember hearing a discussion with a journalistic organization (probably NPR) about how they chose to use the whole pro-choice/pro-life/pro-abortion rites, etc. labels. They decided that they should use the labels that the group members itself choice to use to describe themselves as long as they weren't completely offensive.


I think progressive has a pretty long usage history, and is understood by the people who it is aimed to. Likewise, if someone wanted to start a shoot off group called "family values from the BBB" I think they should be free to do so, because it is a label a lot of people understand. I am personally waiting for the BBB anarchist group.


Jeanne
Mom to Harvey
1/16/03

[cmdunn1972]

The term "anti-choice" even grates on my nerves, and I'm certainly no activist on that issue, though I've never seen any major media outlet use it. Some activists, however, do object to the term "anti-abortion", though it doesn't bother me personally. I've just observed grumbling amongst pro-lifers about it. The media's use of the term has by some activists been used as "evidence" of the media's liberal bias (again, not that I agree).