someone in dd class doesn't believe in Santa...

[ctmom]

I'm in a situtation right now and need some third party advice...my dd goes to preschool and one of the kids in her class has been told, by her parents, that there is no such thing as Santa. What I'm, and other parents, are afraid of is, this girl is going to tell our children and we are not ready for our kids to not believe. I've had a conversation with the girls mom and she said she wants to raise a child and never lie to her. She doesn't want her bubble to burst when she is 6 or 7 or 8 and have to explain to her then she has been lied to by her parents. She told me, she has told her daughter that some of the other kids believe in a magical, but fake person, called Santa, who doesn't really exist and she asked her daughter not to discuss Santa with her friends. She also said she can't totally control her daughter, and if she tells the other kids that there is no such thing as Santa, she is sorry! Some of the parents have gone as far as not inviting this girl to b-day parties and alienating this girl because they are so afraid of having any extra contact with her outside of school. They feel they can't control what she says in the classroom, but they can control seeing her outside of school. I think I'm most torn b/c this girl and my daughter have formed a real friendship, but I am also afraid of her telling my dd. This is causing so much drama at school it is starting to put a damper on the whole christmas season! So for those who have stuck with this story, wwyd? I'm thinking I need ideas for my dd in case she comes home from school one day with questions and I'm not ready to answer them. For those of you who tell you kids there is no such thing as Santa, how do you discuss this with them and at the same time have them not discuss it with their friends. I'm think I'm most upset because of the mom's attitude that oh, well, sorry if she spills the beans, maybe you shouldn't lie to you kids...For what it's worth, this is a Catholic school and the family celebrates Christmas, just not Santa...
Thanks for hanging on!
Mary

[jamsmu]

nak... so this is fast. But think fairies and Peter Pan... You have to believe. Don't you believe?

Even adults believe in the magic and spirit of Santa. You could tell your dd, it it came up, that its sad she and her mother feel that way, But you believe in Santa, so he isn't fake.

[aliceinwonderland]

That's tricky...Makes me think because my kid will likely be like that little girl who does not believe in Santa, BUT, in no way do I want him/us to ruin it for other families...

so, no advice, but I'll be watching the thread...

[chiqanita]

I am modifying my post. Okay I got a little excited there for a minute. I just want to say that I'm one sleep deprived mami. DSb had a rough night with this bad cold and DSa misses his daddy. They cried cried cried most of the night.

--I wouldn't want any child to be alienated for their beliefs. And I feel that the mom in question should've just been a little more sympathetic towards your concerns.

There are several websites like the following www.stnicholascenter.org that might help you explain the truth about St. Nick / Santa Claus . He was a real person.

Go to the library and check out several books on Santa.

My little angels are too young but I think I will continue the *magic*. I still cherish the memory of hearing Santa and his reindeer on the roof one Christmas eve. Looking back now it makes me smile and giggle. That was the best Xms ever. However, I always new the real reason for the season JESUS. Santa was His helper in our house.

Good luck!

ETA BTW we never found out what that sound was on the roof....squirrels? mom? raccoons? I guess we'll never know *wink* ;D

[KBecks]

Wow, that sounds like a lot of drama. I think it's not worth it to alienate (punish) this little girl for her parents' choice.

I'd just let it lie and deal with the Santa issue if your daughter asks you about it. Then I think it's fair to say that some people believe and others do not, and that you believe.

I'd keep it as simple as possible and try not to stress.

(I've thought about not doing the Santa thing with Alek, because I feel it is kind of a lie, I guess I've lost my Christmas magic and need to re-find it! We probably will do Santa, because DH was very upset when I told him I was thinking of skipping it. But I do feel a little uncomfortable with it, to be honest. I am Catholic and do want the focus to be on Christ.)

Have a fabulous Christmas!

[cbm]

Hi Mary,

if the question arises, perhaps you can simply explain that people choose different beliefs. I am sure she is familiar with the choosing concept. You could say that your family chose to believe in Santa Claus and as far as you know he exists. Keep it as simple as possible and to reinforce it tell her that it is a tradition. Use another tradition you have as an example so she can understand better. Even though it seems silly, compare the choosing of Santa and non Santa with something she has had to choose from in the near past like food, for example.
In my opinion it is never too early to introduce diversity among humans whether it is race, religion, or other assorted beliefs.
Good luck!

Claudia
DS 12/18/04

ETC: late with early.

[JTsMom]

ITA w/ Julie. I'd keep it as simple as possible.

[eb1]

I don't see anything rude or inconsiderate about a mother teaching her own child about their family's beliefs/traditions. She was considerate enough to ask her child to not discuss the issue with other children. Sounds to me like she's handling the situation very well.

[aliceinwonderland]

After reading your post (before the edit), I wanted to reply and say: "You know *now* Santa doesn't exist, right?" But I see there has been some resolution...

[karolyp]

ITA....something about this situation bothers me. My family practices a religion that doesn't believe in Christmas and I will face the same situation. Geez...I hope she doesn't get alienated for it!!

[eb1]

I agree it's cruel to alienate this little girl because of this issue, and I also agree with the PPs who've suggested keeping an explanation simple if this becomes an issue that your DD raises. "Her family doesn't believe in Santa, but ours does." If your DD asks more, you can say, "Santa may not leave gifts at her house, but he'll still pass by their house while they're sleeping to wish them Merry Christmas" or something along those lines.

[kedss]

when I taught preschool, one of the older girls was told about Santa too. She started to bring it up one day, and I gently told her that some of the kids believe in Santa and asked her not to talk about it around the much younger kids.

as for how the girl is being treated, its sad that she is being punished by the other families for her beliefs. childhood is hard enough to be alienated in that way.

if your daughter asks you about Santa, maybe read her 'twas the Night before christmas' and explain that many people have different ideas about what/who Santa is. I don't know how old your daughter is, but maybe that would help her.

we haven't decided how to deal with Santa yet, but when he asks, if he ever does, I hope I will have a good answer.

good luck!

[aliceinwonderland]

"In my opinion it is never too early to introduce diversity among humans whether it is race, religion, or other assorted beliefs."

so well said. completely agree.

[Sillygirl]

Holy cow, there is waaaay too much drama going on here and I mostly feel sorry for the poor little girl being alienated by adults that should know better. How on earth are they going to respond to someone who doesn't believe in (gasp) Jesus?

I learned early on in school that there was no Santa from another kid and then I enjoyed protecting my parents from the fact that I knew. It was the first time I felt I could help by being considerate of my parents' feelings and was a lovely experience.

Everyone involved needs to stop being so hysterical because there is not a drop of the Christmas spirit in any of this mess. Santa would be ashamed.

[cbm]

I am sorry, I was editing while you wrote, but I am glad you understood what I meant.

Claudia

[Calmegja2]

>Hi Mary,
>
>if the question arises, perhaps you can simply explain that
>people choose different beliefs. I am sure she is familiar
>with the choosing concept. You could say that your family
>chose to believe in Santa Claus and as far as you know he
>exists. Keep it as simple as possible and to reinforce it tell
>her that it is a tradition. Use another tradition you have as
>an example so she can understand better. Even though it seems
>silly, compare the choosing of Santa and non Santa with
>something she has had to choose from in the near past like
>food, for example.
>In my opinion it is never too early to introduce diversity
>among humans whether it is race, religion, or other assorted
>beliefs.
>Good luck!
>
>Claudia
>DS 12/18/04
>

*****
Absolutely. Not everyone in our preschool believes in Santa, with our diverse population, nor do they in our elementary school.


And I think it's terrible to exclude that little girl out of fear.


edited for clarity

[redhookmom]

This just happened with my 6 year old. He came home from school and said Johnny says there is no Santa! My quick response was "He doesn't believe in Santa? Hmmmm, I wonder if Santa will still go to his house." My son was left with something different to think about. It seemed to work.

[icunurse]

Can't quite help you with this, as DS is still too young to even understand Santa's magic. But here's a little something from the movie "Elf" (one of my favorites - see it if you haven't already!):

Buddy (Will Ferrell): "(gasps) Santa's sleigh."
Papa Elf (Bob Newhart): "You're gonna help me make it fly."
Buddy: "I thought the magical reindeer made the sleigh fly."
Papa Elf: "And where do the reindeer get their magic from?"
Buddy: "Christmas spirit, everybody knows that."
Papa Elf: "Well, silly as it sounds, a lot of people down south don't believe in Santa Claus."
Buddy: "What? Well, who do they think puts all their toys under the tree?"
Papa Elf: "Well, there's a rumor floating around that uh, that the parents do it."
Buddy: "That's... That's ridiculous. I mean, parents couldn't do that all in one night. What about Santa's cookies? I suppose parents eat them too?"

Or you can listen to it! http://www.moviewavs.com/cgi-bin/moviewavs.cgi?Elf=dontbelieve.wav

Traci
~Connor's Mom 02/2004~
Agency paperwork completed - waiting for #2!

[anutalp]

I hear what you say.
We're Jewish so of course no Christmas, no Santa. And that's what I'm going to tell my kids. I hope it will not cause all this problems that you're describing.

[Piglet]

Okay, I will preface by saying that I am Jewish and do not celebrate Christmas, so please take this post as an outside opinion...

Holy cow!!! So much drama and so much alienation over Santa?! I never believed in Santa and never was treated as poorly as this little girl is being treated. If you had posted the same post, but said that there was a Jewish girl in the class that was being excluded from events because of her family's beliefs, we would all be enraged (I hope). I can not believe the lack of understanding that every family has different beliefs and we should embrace those differences.

I am even baffled by the posts that are saying that "oh well, maybe Santa will pass by her house", which implies that she will have less presents and be less worthy than the kids that believe in Santa. I once had a horrible experience when I was 5 - I was getting a hair cut just after Christmas and the hair dresser asked me what I got for Christmas. I told her that I didn't get anything and she then asked, "why - weren't you a good girl?" I ran away crying, obviously. It is the same implication here - this little girl is not worthy of as many gifts... it exudes a certain smugness, to me.

If I were in your position, I would answer only as much as needed. I learned this from my MIL, who is wonderful about answering tough questions. If your DD asks why this little girl does not believe in Santa, you can say that everyone has different beliefs and leave it at that. You can elaborate on different cultures, religions, etc. if you want, but I would not do that unless DD pursued it. To me, I would think that if your DD comes to you and asks about Santa, it is because she wants to validate that he does exist and be reassured that he will come to your house. She WANTS him to exist, so all you have to do is say that he does and leave it at that. Kids have amazing imaginations and they want magic in their lives. They do not want magic to end, and all you have to do is reassure her that the magic is still there. I would really not focus on the other girl at all. Do not say anything negative about her or her beliefs. Do not give your DD any reason to go back to the other girl and try to prove her wrong. That girl is as entitled to her beliefs as your DD is entitled to believing in Santa.

[aliceinwonderland]

Elf is one of my DH's favorite movies. Sometimes I think I'm married to someone with the mind of a 12 yr. old. He LOOOVES Christmas too. I am the grinch (can you tell??)

[Roleysmom]

I think it is absolutely terrible for the parents to alienate this little girl because they don't know how to answer a tricky question. You are right on for figuring out how to answer it if your DD brings it up and I would encourage you to engage the other parents in doing the same thing and to try and put a stop to this child's exclusion.

I suppose we are on the other side of the situation. Even though I grew up Catholic, we don't celebrate Christmas. DH is Jewish and we celebrate the Jewish holidays. When Roley has asked about Santa we have told her that it's a man dressed up in a costume, which of course, it is. I don't think we did anything wrong by doing that. Even if the family does celebrate Christmas, they do have a right to choose which of the traditions to embrace. If your DD comes home and says so and so said Santa was a man in a costume or Santa isn't real, you could say something like, "The Santas you see at the store are like actors playing Santa. Santa is about giving and caring for others and going out of your way to do something that makes someone else feel good. Do you believe in that?" And then she'll probably want to make sure that Santa is coming to your house and you can say of course!

You mentioned that your DD is in preschool. I think it's easier to answer this question and retain their belief in Santa at this age then it would be when they are older. They are still somewhat distractible at this point (as Jessica mentioned) and really the bottom line concern is am I still going to get presents from Santa. If your answer ends in Santa will come to our house and we'll do everything we always do for him, then I think the situation will be fine.

When you come up with an answer you like, I think you should share it with the other parents so then maybe they can stop the drama.


Paula -- mom to Roley Julia, January '02

[icunurse]

That's funny....I thought my husband was ! ;) (Yep, that makes me the 12 year old :) )
Traci
~Connor's Mom 02/2004~
Agency paperwork completed - waiting for #2!

[Momof3Labs]

I agree that it is so sad that parents are alienating this little girl, and even sadder that their children are learning that lesson from them. And why should the mom be criticized for teaching her child her beliefs? She's doing what she feels is right for her family, and asked her daughter not to talk to her friends about it.

IMO, I can't believe that a few words from a preschool classmate can squash a child's belief in Santa, particularly if the parents are firm in their beliefs and are ready with a gentle explanation for their child. At age 6 or 8, sure, but that's probably because they are questioning Santa's existence for other reasons. But at age 3-4? Nah.

[annasmom]

I do not envy your situation. We haven't reached this issue yet, but will quite possibly in the future. I am Catholic and so are my dc. My DH and his family are not. My DH and I do not know yet whether my SIL is going to do Santa with her ds. We are hopeful that they will not say anything in front of our dc.

That being said, I have given this "some" thought and I guess if this issue arises I plan on saying something similar to what I have prepared for when my dc ask me why they and their daddy pray to different Gods -- that is that people have different beliefs and that doesn't make anyone's beliefs any less "real" or important.

FWIW I went to Catholic school my entire life and I had plenty of Jewish, Protestant, Hindu, etc. classmates, so while this issue certainly may not occur as frequently in a Catholic school, it is bound to to some extent.

One last thing, my gut reaction is that I would rather my children lose out on Santa than alienate a friend. It doesn't sound very "Christian" to me.

Good luck!

[annasmom]

Just wanted to add one more thing. As many of the PP noted, it probably won't take much for your child to retain her belief because she is so young, and truly wants to believe.

Permit me to illustrate:

When I was little I went into my parent's room and opened my mom's closet. Inside were all of our Easter baskets, completely decked out with candy and decorations. I asked my mom what was going on, and she replied that the Easter Bunny had stubbed his toe and that he needed a little help this year so the baskets were delivered early. She added that I shouldn't mention anything to anyone else.

I completely bought it!! Very quick thinking on my mom's part!

[lizamann]

Wow, I feel bad for this little girl, too. She's being alienated because her mother was considerate enough to tell other parents! She certainly didn't have to mention that to anyone, but she did, and now her dd is being punished for it. And the little girl hasn't even told anyone, as far as you mention! Too much drama.

As for us, I told my 2.5 yo dd the Santa story a couple weeks ago. The poor dear freaked out and in no way wants Santa to visit! She says it several times a day, "Santa don't come to our house!" When she hears a strange noise she looks at me and says, "Santa?" with a scared look on her face. One day at dinner she announced, completely out of the blue, "I don't want presents. I don't want Santa to come. I don't want to see Christmas." I've already told her Santa isn't real, that it's just pretend, so she doesn't continue to freak out. It's not really working!

I just don't think we'll perpetuate the Santa thing. I plan to "play along" with it (but not this X-mas due to dd's fears), but always have the understanding that it's pretend. I hope my dd isn't punished for it down the road!

[jesseandgrace]

I think this is actually a great opportunity, if it comes up, to teach your child about diversity, and how others have different beliefs - and how your family would never want to leave someone out or discriminate against someone else based on different beliefs.

It's a good thing my son doesn't go to that school since he announced to his pre-school class that he disagreed with California's ruling to strike down same sex marriages, and that in Massachusetts where we are from, two boys can marry eachother and that was much better for his cousin Tom and his partner. Hmmm, I'm certain we would be allienated.

We do Christmas, I don't see it as a lie, just a chance to create some magic. I absolutely loved Christmas as a child, even after I found out, and I want my kids to experience the magic I felt, but it is MUCH more important to me to have my children learn tollerance, understanding, and acceptance than to learn about a guy coming down the chimney in a red suit giving presents, so if I have to explain if Santa is real sooner than I want to then so be it.

I'm sad for that little girl not being invited to the parties, and I'm also sad for the children whose parents are teaching them that it is ok to exclude others based on beliefs. The kids might not understand yet why this girl isn't invited over, but they will pick up on the fact that the parents think there is something wrong with her right away. I think that is just so sad for everyone.

[cleo27]

Wow - well said! I appreciate you sharing your viewpoint.

[mommyj_2]

>t
>If I were in your position, I would answer only as much as
>needed. I learned this from my MIL, who is wonderful about
>answering tough questions. If your DD asks why this little
>girl does not believe in Santa, you can say that everyone has
>different beliefs and leave it at that. You can elaborate on
>different cultures, religions, etc. if you want, but I would
>not do that unless DD pursued it. To me, I would think that
>if your DD comes to you and asks about Santa, it is because
>she wants to validate that he does exist and be reassured that
>he will come to your house. She WANTS him to exist, so all
>you have to do is say that he does and leave it at that. Kids
>have amazing imaginations and they want magic in their lives.
>They do not want magic to end, and all you have to do is
>reassure her that the magic is still there. I would really
>not focus on the other girl at all. Do not say anything
>negative about her or her beliefs. Do not give your DD any
>reason to go back to the other girl and try to prove her
>wrong. That girl is as entitled to her beliefs as your DD is
>entitled to believing in Santa.
>
>

ITA.
I also have to say that I am horrified that parents would alienate a child based on whether or not she believes in Santa. She's a child, and she didn't choose what to believe or not to believe. I also agree with the PPs who said this would be a good chance to teach your DC that people have different beliefs, and that those beliefs don't make them any better or worse than anyone else.
I would be much more concerned that my child is part of a school community that would alienate a child over something as petty as this. It's not as if this little girl is the only person in the world who doesn't believe in Santa, and that by protecting your [in the general sense of the word] children from her, you can ensure your children will believe in Santa as long as you want them to. I would also be more concerned with making sure my child didn't alienate this young girl, and that she learned that all people are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect.

[AngelaS]

As the mom of children who don't believe in Santa, I really feel for that little girl. I've always told my daughter the truth about Santa and I had a friend that kept her dd away from mine around the holidays so that A wouldn't 'ruin it' for her child.

I just asked my almost 8 year old how she would handle it if some other kids were talking about Santa. She says she'd either say nothing or say "some kids believe in Santa". She knows not to ruin it for others and I'm betting that other little girl's mother has talked to her too.

[ellies mom]

I have to agree with you. I think the other parents are being very childish and petty. Imagine not inviting a really young child to a party in order to "protect" their child's belief in Santa. Wow. Yeah, this is probably a good learning opportunity. If the issue does actually come up (and they aren't all punishing this child for nothing), then this would be a great way to start the diversity and respect conversation.

On a related note, my parents were always honest with the idea that Santa was make-believe but fun. The moment we were old enough to ask, they told the truth but continued to write Santa's name on some of our gifts. The reason my mom felt so strongly about is because when she was little and still believed in Santa Claus, she got into an arguement at school about it. She went home and asked her mom outright at lunch and she was told that yes, Santa was real. So she went back to school and insisted that Santa was real because her mom said so and her mom wouldn't lie. Later that night, her mom pulled her aside and told her that Santa wasn't real but she didn't want to say it earlier because her younger siblings were right there. My mom was horrified, and is definitely one of those "scarred for life" by the situation. We grew up just fine knowing the truth but being allowed to play along.

[Globetrotter]

Wow, how sad that this little girl is being alienated for THIS!! What kind of message does this send? We live in a very diverse area, so I cannot fathom such a thing!

We do the whole Santa thing at our house, for the magic of it. You could tell your dd that Santa comes to your house if you believe in him. Not all families believe in him, though, and they have other ways to celebrate the holidays. Great chance to teach about diversity.

You could also tell her the story of St. Nick, I suppose.

Kris

[psophia17]

I haven't read all the posts, so maybe I'm repeating, but...

I think that it's incredibly un-Christian behavior to alienate a child for something as minor as not believing in Santa Claus.

For the record, I grew up knowing Santa did not exist. My parents were both born in Holland, and the Dutch tradition is on Dec 5-6, when Sinterclaas (St. Nick) and Zwarte Pete come on a ship from Spain and pass out treats for the good kids and coal for the bad kids (Zwarte translates to black - Pete was black from coal dust). This is the holiday part of the Christmas season, and on Dec. 25, the religious is the focus - not the over-the-top gift-fest that has become traditional in North America...nowhere else in the world that I know about does the holidays like here.

Anyhow - I never alienated a single kid with my Santa knowledge. I had the "true" story, and was content with that. My parents were Santa's helpers at our house, like all the parents were at everyone else's house, if they celebrated Christmas at all, and whether or not the kids at those houses knew it. But, since I was a poor kid who lived on a farm, the upper middle class parents of kids in my Catholic school already felt it was okay for me not to be invited to parties during the year. I guess I might've shown up with an inexpensive present and/or smelling like cow manure.

Happy Holidays to everyone alienating small children this season.

[lablover]

My mom was also "scarred" from finding out Santa wasn't real and therefore from the start she told us that Santa wasn't real but it was fun to pretend. We always had presents from Santa and we were as excited as the next kid. It was never an issue for us. We are planning on having DS believe in Santa and I must say I'm excited to be a part of that since it was something I didn't experience.

[pritchettzoo]

Oh my gosh, I feel so badly for that little girl. I can't believe the other parents are excluding her. That's heartbreaking.

My friend told me Santa didn't exist when I was 6. I told my mom, and she said, "Well, what do you think?" I decided to believe a little longer. :)

I think how you treat people is way more important than a magical fat guy, but JMO.

Anna
Mama to Gracie (Sept '03) and Eli (July '05)

[ctmom]

thank you all for your responses and especially that website...I've been ready to discuss with my dd's the fact that some people don't belive in Jesus, therefore, don't celebrate Christmas. I went to school and had many Jewish friends so I *think* I can talk to her about the religious diversity but I think most of the parents have been bringing up their kids that Christmas=Santa and that is where this gets sticky. DD is only 4 so I'm just going to keep things simple and hope she goes with it. It also reminds me, and after speaking to some of the other parents, that I want to get back to the simplier, Christian meaning of Christmas. I also think it was the other mom's attitude, oh well if my daughter tells them, you shouldn't be lying to your kids, that is getting the other parents upset.

Thanks again!

[tarabenet]

I always loved the old "Yes Virginia, There is a Santa Claus" essay. I think it does a great job of covering the outward facts and the spiritual facts regarding Christmas magic.

I would make a pre-emptive strike with my child, and tell her that some people don't believe, but that we do. And personally, I would also make sure I communicated to her that "beliefs" and "facts" are in different realms, and that those who don't believe the same thing we do are not "wrong" or "evil" but only different.

I would not limit my child's time with this girl with the other beliefs. That would only put the lie to the diversity and acceptance issues, and teach my child that we don't play with people who disagree with us.

You may be surprised at how your daughter deals with all this. My little brother got very worried as a small child. It really upset him that there could be Santas everywhere, and he could plainly see that these Santas all looked a little different from one another. Obviously not just one Santa who could move magically fast from the in-door to the store to the mall cneter court. So, all on his own, he came up with the theory that "These are Santa's helpers, who are here to talk to us because the Real Santa is busy getting ready for Christmas." No adult led him there. He cooked that one up in the time my mom was sitting there stammering, trying to figure out how to handle the question! So let your daughter help you with the explanation and the theories of why we believe different things, and how we are all right and it's OK. (Of course, for any parent who doesn't believe that differences are OK, I got nothin'. ;) ) But if she's involved in the story, she'll be more likely to buy into it. Little bro ran around announcing his "discovery" to everyone in earshot for several Christmases before he gave up believing.

Oh, and one last point: I don't recall feeling betrayed when I learned about Santa. It was just one of those triumphant moments of figuring out how the world works! Suddenly I got to be in on the secret.

[brittone2]

I visit this website periodically to check on recipes, etc. and coincidentally happened to see this today after posting:
http://www.organizedchristmas.com/ftopict-10129.html

[wilelm]

This is just me, but if it were my child, I wouldn't automatically assume that they would believe there wasn't a Santa just because another child told them that. It seems like your child would believe you over another child, especially if your child is very young.

Of course, I haven't come up against this yet, and Miriam is just now learning (in our Atheist/Muslim household) who Santa is, and that he will definitely be visiting our house to leave presents!


Sheila

[KBecks]

Oh no! How awful to be scared of Santa! The poor dear.

I hope she feels safer soon and that you have a great Christmas.

[KBecks]

I think whether the "truthful" mom was rude or not really depends on how she explained it, and if she was acting like a superior parent, that certainly can set people off.

As far as having a simpler Christmas with more focus on Jesus, that is a great goal. Also, you can reinforce the season of Advent, prayerfully waiting for Christ's birth. Have you done an advent wreath? I think it's a great tradition.

I think I'm going to be more respectful of Advent, and hold off on putting up the tree, etc. until just before Christmas (and then leaving it up afterwards) which is more consistent with the church's true seasons.

[KBecks]

I don't think that this issue is happening because it's a Catholic school. Catholic schools welcome students from all religious backgrounds. However, when it comes to teaching, their religion classes, etc. teach about Cathlolicism.

I think this is happening because the parents are over-protective and generally freaking out.

Just wanted to stand up for Catholics, this kind of drama could unfortunately occur at almost any school or community group.

[newnana]

Okay, I got a little side tracked with one of the PP. I hope this gets to the right recipient. Beth, the DS of one of my dearest friends was terrified of santa as well. It struck him at around age 3. As are most parents, they are quite clever; first at figuring out what he was afraid of and then a solution. It took them a bit to figure out why he kept saying that he didn't want any presents (he didn't react to "Santa," just "what do you want for Christmas?") Anyway, they chose a character he was infatuated with, Spiderman, and substited. Christmas couldn't have been more exciting for him last year with Spiderman coming to their house!!! The bonus is that Spiderman has the same number of syllables, so they could even substitute it in all the carols. Just a thought, good luck!

Sorry to be off topic, I agree with the PP and thought that others covered my opinion quite well. Good luck with your DC
Michelle

[Bethann31]

Can I pose a slightly different angle? Perhaps the parents are excluding this child because is appears that the mom is somewhat abrasive and militant about the situation. With 4 children, I've had to handle this situation several times through the years. I've used many explanations, but most of them boil down to the "well, I believe in Santa, and I would hate to take any chances on him not bringing me anything." It's simple and it works for me. In fact, I've NEVER had the "There is no Santa" talk with any of them. Of course, I'm sure the older 3 are just humoring me at this point.
It sounds to me that this mom is rather rude, if this is how she is handling the situation, and I don't think I woudld be inviting her to my home either.

The other thing is the whold "I don't want to lie to my child." I understand the thoughtfulness behind that and know that we all mean it when we say it, but you are going to lie to your child a million times before they are raised. Those of you with infants and toddlers may not believe that, but check in with those of us with teens and I assure you we lie to them all the time. Not about the big stuff, but hey, is Santa really the big stuff?

PPs are all right. We all have the right to raise our children in the way we want them raised. We have the right to pass on our beliefs and teach our children what we want them to learn. We don't have the right, however, ruin the magic for others. This mom seems rather cruel to me. When I read what you wrote, I got the feeling that she is hoping her daughter ruins it for others. I guess the fact that I personally know someone whose child has done this and she thinks it's hilarious that the other kids cried, colors my thinking though.

Beth
mom to:

Josh 3/90
Mollie 4/92
Jeffrey 12/94
Katherine 6/03


http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/lamlamsvi20030604_4_Katherine+Grace+is.png

[Jenn98]

Just to toss in a little humor/Murphy's Law here... I was reading the OP and all the replies and I imagined all the kids who believe in Santa at a party without the little girl who doesn't. One kid realizes that little girl isn't there and asks why. Another kid answers matter of factly that she's not coming because she doesn't believe in Santa. The other kid says, "Oh, okay." and goes back to what he was doing in the first place and doesn't give it another thought.

I find this funny for a few reasons. I think we over analyze things with our kids too much sometimes. All these parents are involved in this drama and the kids have no clue. I don't mean to trivialize anyone's feelings, but I think sometimes we try so hard that we try too hard. Am I making any sense here? It may not be as big of an issue with the kids as the parents think it is. I think a lot of the replies are dead on. I plan to do the whole santa thing but I also plan to be honest that some don't believe in santa - they do other things and that's okay.

My mom always points out that we are scared of what we don't know. And if we expect our kids to not be scared of different faiths/people/culture they need to know a bit about it and know that it's okay to be different.

I just find it amusing that sometimes as parents we try so hard but forget that are kids are actually really bright little creatures who somehow seem to understand big concepts that we adults have forgotten - like acceptance and diversity and the whole magic of the holiday season.

justr my .02
jenn

[Raidra]

First off, I do think it's horrible that this little girl is getting left out because of her beliefs. That's so cruel.

Now, I don't know exactly how the mom explained it to the little girl, but I do have issues with people saying "Santa isn't real" rather than "Some people believe in Santa, but I don't." I'm sure that's nitpicking to some, but here is my reasoning. My husband and I don't believe in God, but that's not to say that he isn't real. For many people, God is real, and for me to say that he isn't implies that their reality is less valid than mine. Reality is all about perception, right? I wouldn't want my child to get the idea that people who believe in God aren't as intelligent (in the way that some older kids who believe in Santa are called stupid for not realizing that parents put presents under the tree). If something is real to one person, then I don't think I have the right to say it isn't real at all. I think that everyone's beliefs are valid, whether they believe in God, Santa, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I will introduce my kids to Santa, because I believe that Santa is about the spirit of giving, which is real. When they get old enough to ask, that's what I'll say - everyone who gives to other people is a Santa.

Anyway.. just my opinion. :)

[ctmom]

Yes, we have an advent wreath and we now have a "special" prayer before we say grace. We actually aren't decorating the house until the weekend before Christmas because my younger dd's b-day is in a few weeks and I want to keep the two occassions seperate. We keep the tree up until "little christmas" and exchange one last present on 1/6...

[ctmom]

I think your senario is exactly what some of the parents are afraid of...This other mom's attitude is really setting the mood.

[ctmom]

tis' the season for the questions!!

Thanks!

[swampus]

From your post, it sounds to me like there is more going on with the other parents than just being afraid that the girl will spill the beans about Santa. They must just not care for her (or her mom) in general. It seems pretty silly that they'd react that way just because of this one reason. (or am I reading it wrong?)

[lisams]

Haven't read the other replies, but I wouldn't worry about it. When I was in first grade another classmate told me Santa wasn't true, and my parents told me that Santa is true for those who believe in him. Kind of cheesy, but it kept me a believer ;-) I still have a special place in my heart for him!

I also would not do anything to alienate this child on the basis of her parent's choice - that is sad for all of the children. There are many religions out there that do not celebrate Christmas, or do it differently, could you imagine if we chose not to include those people in gatherings!!

I know it sounds like the mother is kind of "putting down" those that "lie" to their children, but to me it sounds like maybe she is a little defensive because she is not playing up the whole Santa thing and is tired of being told she is being a "grinch". If anything, I kind of feel bad that this mother feels she has to defend their decision.

Just wait until the kids start comparing how much the tooth fairy gives - that's gonna be fun to handle ("Mom, why are my teeth not worth as much as Sam's?")

I think parenting just gets more challenging the older they get! Good luck however you handle the situation!

[buddyleebaby]

I really don't think you have anything to worry about.
I went to an elemtary school that was 80% Jewish. i was constantly being told by one friend or another that Santa was not real. I thought they were all idiots. Of course he was real, I have presents under the tree to prove it.
Unless your daughter is already questionign Snata, a comment from a friend will have no effect.

[wagner36]

Charlie's terrified of Santa too. MIL bought us a mat for our front door (she's clearly upset by our complete lack of kitschy x-mas decorations) with a picture of Santa saying ho ho ho and Charlie refuses to go out the front door now!

[squimp]

You know, I think this is the first of many many issues where kids learn that not everyone acts, thinks, believes, the same way. In preschool it might be Santa, in middle school it might be God or politics. If it's not hurting anyone, why get in a huff? As someone said, this is a great opportunity for kids to learn that not everyone is the same.

I'm glad your daughter has formed a real friendship at school, and see no reason to further involve her in the controversy. I'd answer her questions, and share my own beliefs. I believed in Santa long after I knew who ate the Christmas cookies :).

[R2sweetboys]

Well, it looks like the many PPs have covered my feelings pretty well. I don't happen to agree that it sounds like the girl's mother was being mean or insensitive about it. It seems quite the opposite. She was kind enough to make the other parents aware in case her DD did "spill the beans"(she's ONLY 4-kids say what's on their minds!), so you would be aware and prepared. No, she can't totally control her daughter. We all know that. It sounds like she was appologizing in advance in case the girl spoke about it. She was also kind enough to ask her DD not to talk about it though there's no way to guarantee it.

Mary, I'm hoping maybe you could use this as a chance to mention to the other parents that it is not O.K. to exclude this poor girl due to her(and her parents') beliefs. If you compared it to discriminating due to one's religious beliefs,etc. they might get it. I also don't think it would be O.K. to exclude this little girl just because her mom might be "abrasive" or whatever.(which I don't personally see evidence of anyway) That's NOT her fault. Why should she be shunned because of her mom's behavior?(I want to clarify Mary that I'm not directing this towards you,but the other parents)

Hopefully everyone will just simmer down about this and enjoy the holiday season while it's here!! :)
~Leslie

SAHM to...
Ryan 8/14/00
Matthew 2/14/03

[psophia17]

There were Jewish kids at my Catholic school, and Jewish teachers, too...just not of religion.

I continue to be disgusted by the behavior of the parents being mean to a little girl for this (or any) reason. All day it has bugged me that there are people like that out there.

[KBecks]

LOL about your proof! I think you were an exceptionally logical kid.

[jesseandgrace]

I don't think it is a catholic School thing either, but sometimes when a school or organization is built on a particular set of beliefs and many share those beliefs it is sometimes easier for these issues to arise,no matter what the beliefs are - but I do know how diverse some catholic schools are - in my area it is a great, inexpensive alternative to public school.

[kristine_elen]

I wouldn't punish the girl because her parents shared information with her. If she tells your DD that Santa doesn't exist, you could just explain that different people have different beliefs and that in your family, Santa DOES exist. I don't think it's going to be possible to shield our kids from things like this (and much worse), although we wish we could.

[C99]

Doesn't sound to me like these other parents are taking a very christian (or Roman Catholic, if you prefer) attitude toward the non-Santa-believing girl...

[buddyleebaby]

When did you start doing an advemt wreath with the little ones?

Growing up we had an advent wreath which we lit at dinner time right before grace (even as a little girl I knew the proper prayers and responses). We were not allowed to secorate until after the fourth Sunday in Advent. Then we opened gifts from relatives on Christmas (and one gift from Santa), one "santa" gift on each of the twelve days of Christmas, and one big gift on Epiphany.
I have to say that since moving out of my parent's house, I haven't done any of that. I barely get a tree up. I want to start doing those things with my daughter, but wonder at what age I should start.
Thanks.

[ctmom]

We started doing the lighting of the advent wreath this year. Last year dd starting asking questions about the wreath at church but I just didn't have my act together to do anything about it. She also didn't learn as much last year as this year in school about advent, the 3yo program was only 2 days a week vs. 3 days for the 4yo's. Growing up we always held off on one gift until the Epiphany an it feels good to continue some of my traditions with my own family. I also had a very good friend who was Greek Orthodox who didn't get any gifts until Jan 6, so it was always fun seeing what she got then!

[JBaxter]

This happened when DS1 went to preschool ( he is 14 now) He came home and told me "x" said there wasnt a real santa. I told him to believe what was in his heart and that if he believed there was a Santa that I'm sure he would bring gifts on Christmas morning but if he didnt believe in Santa he was taking a risk of NOT getting any gifts. It was up to him to take the chance. After a few moments of silence Logan responded with " I think I believe in santa!" LOL Saved me for another year!

I also took them shopping for their gifts ( we did walmart because of the lay a way) and we loaded them up in the cart and took them to the layaway dept so Santa could stop by and see what they wanted and make theirs since they were really good little boys and all the toys on the shelves where "example" toys so we COULDN'T buy those. -- is my mind twisted or what LOL--

[mapg]

Kids seem to believe what they want to believe. My daughter figured out Santa was Mom and Dad at an early age, but went along with the whole Santa thing because her much older cousin still believed. Then she went to pre-school and asked if it would be okay to go along with the other kids and act like she believed. I said sure. As far as I know, she never said anything to anyone about who Santa really is. She did shake her head a few years ago at her then 15 year old cousin, asking after she left, "How can she still believe in Santa?" My daughter attends a Catholic school (we are Protestant), and it seems to me that the focus on faith at Christmas seems to buffer the whole Santa thing, at least more so than the Presbyterian services of my childhood did.
MA

[KBecks]

DH and I do the advent wreath for us right now. I'm guessing that DS will get into it as he gets a little older. You still have time!!

[crayonblue]

Ok, this makes me very, very angry. We grew up in a household with no Santa. And, my mom got criticized up and down for not teaching us about Santa. We didn't miss it one bit. To alienate this little girl is a horrible thing.

When Lauren is older and asks if Santa is real, I will tell her that he is not. I honestly don't know how to deal with her telling other kids or not. My brother spilled the beans with a few of his friends. I don't think it is right to tell a child the truth and then insist they don't talk about it with others.

If you want your daughter to believe in Santa, then do as the PPs suggested and just tell her people have different beliefs.

[bunnisa]

>The other thing is the whold "I don't want to lie to my
>child." I understand the thoughtfulness behind that and know
>that we all mean it when we say it, but you are going to lie
>to your child a million times before they are raised. Those of
>you with infants and toddlers may not believe that, but check
>in with those of us with teens and I assure you we lie to them
>all the time. Not about the big stuff, but hey, is Santa
>really the big stuff?


Wow. I completely disagree with you. I do my very best to always be truthful with everyone (and age is not a factor). I have no intention of EVER lying to my children.

Please don't lump others in with your particular methodology.

Bethany
mom to one and one on the way!
http://lilypie.com/days/060226/0/8/1/-6/.png
"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-J. Torres

[dogmom]

OK, let me get this straight. Not only is my son going to get grief if we raise him without a religious background, but if I don't teach him about/to believe in a big guy in red suit crawling down our chimney to bring him gifts as opposed to his loving Mom & Dad picking out his gifts he is going to be a pre-school outcast!!!!!

Am I the only one slightly confused here? I thought I was doing a good job by making his say please, thank you and not kick the dogs or pull the cats' tails. It never even occurred to me to talk to him about Santa yet, and he's almost three.

Jeanne
Mom to Harvey
1/16/03

[deborah_r]

> i was
>constantly being told by one friend or another that Santa was
>not real. I thought they were all idiots. Of course he was
>real, I have presents under the tree to prove it.

LOLing at this!!! That is so funny!

[missym]

LOL! I was the same way. A girl named Joey told our whole class that Santa wasn't real. I said of course he was, because every year they announced on the RADIO NEWS that his sleigh had been sighted overhead, and they can't lie on the news.

Missy, mom to Gwen 03/03 and Rebecca 09/05

[mnosky1]

We always do advent wreath so not starting at a certian age but DD who is 2 1/2 is very excited about "her" advent wreath this year (she mostly ignored it last year at 18 mos) - it is felt with velcro on candles (from a Catholic bookstore). She said is it for baby Jesus being born.
We are still just generally ignoring Santa and in heated debate what to do. DD gives eveyone a totally blank look when EVERY person she meets asks what Sants is bringing her.

[buddyleebaby]

DH didn't know who Santa was until he got to the US. He says in his area of South America they tell the kids that the baby Jesus is coming and bringing them gifts. (SO strange to me)
Not to blame him, but dh has been a terrible influence on me. I went to Church every Sunday of my life until I married what our priest affectionately calls an A&P Catholic (only goes on Ash Wednesday and Palm Sunday). We do make it for holy days, but as for regular Sunday mass we go once a month (on a good month). Now that DD is born I feel more compelled than I have in years to get to Mass. I want very much to raise her in the Church.
I think I might put a wreath together tomorrow. I feel inspired. ; )

[ddmarsh]

> I honestly don't know how to deal with her
>telling other kids or not. My brother spilled the beans with a
>few of his friends. I don't think it is right to tell a child
>the truth and then insist they don't talk about it with
>others.


I have no problem with someone telling their child Santa is not real - to each his own. I do, however, have a problem with that child being free to tell other children the same. If one is going to tell a child this, knowing that it is a huge deal for many other families then the parent has a responsibility to discuss with their child that they should not discuss this with others. I have older children who no longer believe and we do the same - they do not spoil it for their younger siblings. IMO it's terribly irresponsible and infringing upon the beliefs of other children for a child to spoil Santa for them.

[Sillygirl]

>I have no problem with someone telling their child Santa is
>not real - to each his own. I do, however, have a problem
>with that child being free to tell other children the same.
>If one is going to tell a child this, knowing that it is a
>huge deal for many other families then the parent has a
>responsibility to discuss with their child that they should
>not discuss this with others. I have older children who no
>longer believe and we do the same - they do not spoil it for
>their younger siblings. IMO it's terribly irresponsible and
>infringing upon the beliefs of other children for a child to
>spoil Santa for them.
>
>

See, I disagree with this. I think a lot of parents out there today are WAAAAY too involved with managing every last detail of their children's lives and getting far too worked up when the real world intrudes on their carefully laid plans.

I mean, when we were kids, at least where I lived, you went to the playground, you played with other kids, you heard theories that Santa wasn't real, that the red dye in cinnamon candy was made from fire ants, that if you collected enough Tootsie Pop wrappers with a star on them you'd get some free candy from the store. Maybe even a bad word or two! And our parents didn't try to legislate and regulate all of that. They butted out and let us interact with other kids. Nowadays? Look at all the debate this topic has engendered. I for one would not be at all surprised to hear that one of the parents at the OP's school filed a lawsuit or injunction or something.

I don't think our kids have the "right" to have their carefully constructed worlds protected all the time, and I don't think it's desireable, either. They need the freedom to explore with other children and the parents need to let that happen.

[crayonblue]

Terribly irresponsible? Who is terribly irresponsible if a child spoils Santa? The parent? What if I tell my child not to tell other kids about Santa and she accidentally does so? Am I still irresponsible?

I will teach my child that their are appropriate times to talk about things, many things. That's teaching her wisdom. But, I hate to think that another parent is going to think I am irresponsible if my child tells the truth about Santa!

[papal]

I say the parents should butt out and let the kids deal with it by themselves. If there is a little girl who says there is No Santa, there will be another little girl who will use her imagination and come up with a reason that there IS a Santa. And the first little girl will squish her theory and so on and so forth. And in the grand scheme of things, they will figure it out till the next big thing like the Tooth Fairy comes up for questioning and deliberation.