Here is the plan- thoughts?

[kijip]

Not many IRL people seem to like my husband's and my plan for separation. SO, I am going to lay it out here and get some feedback.

Here is the deal:

We are going to be legally separated for a period of 1 year before either converting to a divorce or deciding to work towards reconcilation. Deal is no divorce and no talk of getting back together for 1 year. In 1 year we will opt to convert to a divorce or work towards reconcilation. If we decide to reconcile we will remain physically separated for a period of no less than 6 more months after that. Frankly that is a very slim chance and if it happens I think it would be a 2 or 3 years from now thing. It is financially and emotionally devastating but necessary. We will either divorce or we will try to get back together. I am leaning heavily towards a divorce but feel that I owe it to Toby and to the great parts of my marriage to make that decision after the immediate, burning anger has passed.

Our plan for custody in the next year is as follows:

I am the custodial parent. J will get to pick Toby up from school on Wednesdays and have dinner with him. In the future that may expand to spending the night at dad's apt but not until Toby feels comfortable with that. J will get to pick him up and take him to breakfast and then drop him off at school on Fridays. J may volunteer to help at school on Friday mornings. Sunday morning, I will pick J up and we will take Toby to church together. After church, J will come over to my place and keep an eye on Toby till 4PM while I run errands and take a nap. J will also help tidy up Toby's stuff/wash laundry. Once every 2 weeks I will take J and Toby grocery shopping (his new apartment is near NO cheap groceries.) Plan here is that Toby sees us interacting in a normal fashion and that we both save money by sharing volume sales etc. J charged with giving Toby a bath at least once per week. Christmas, Easter and birthday with me. New Years, Fourth of July and Labor Day weekend and Thanksgiving with J. The goal is to minimize pain for Toby, ensure that J does not become Disneyland/Pizza/Movie/Candy daddy and I don't become mean boring mommy doing all the baths, doctor visits and errands. If we ultimatly divorce this will ease the transition. If we reconcile in 18-36 months this will make the process less jarring.

J will attend therapy, go to a group for DV and join the mens group at our church. If we opt to try to reconcile, we will go to joint therapy in one year. I will see someone if I decide I need to alone. Likely this would just be via church.

Half of my IRL friends and family are saying I should get back together with him now (not going to happen) while we go to therapy and half are basically saying divorce NOW. I think this plan is best since it gives us some space to decide, honors what we had together and our son and allows us to plan ahead.

Whattya think?

[DebbieJ]

Katie,

I think your plan is extremely thoughtful and mature and respectful of Toby's emotionals through it all.

My only question is--what if all these things don't happen as planned? What if J doesn't join the men's group? Do you divorce then? What if J doesn't pick up Toby on Wednesdays and have dinner with him? Is there flexibility built in or are these things non-negotiable?

Just things to think about...

(((HUGS)))

~ deb
DS born at home 12/03
BFARed for 20 months and 6 days
(Breastfeeding After Reduction is possible! www.bfar.org)

http://www.bfar.org/members/fora/style_avatars/Ribbons/18months-bfar.jpg

[psophia17]

I think your plan sounds well thought out and logical. Given how many good parts there were to your marriage, it is worth a shot to reconcile. Taking time to make that decision is your right - and a gift to your son.

I also think that this will be incredibly hard on you, and your _H. You will have to do a lot of interacting, and that is infinitely harder than going cold turkey.

But in the long run, and taking into account the needs of your child and the strength of your relationship (not including the DV), I like it.

In the meantime, whatever happens, I'm thinking of you often, Katie. Be strong when you have to, be weak when you need to, and remember that there's always someone here for you.

[buddyleebaby]

Katie,
No one is in your marriage but you and your dh. No one knows better than you what is in Toby's best interest, and what will work best for you and your dh.
I understand that freinds and family have your very best interest at heart (as do we all), but this is one situation where you and you alone need to decide what you want to do. It sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this, and I hope it goes well. If after trying it, it doesn't, you will think of something else.
You are a strong woman and a loving mama. You have proven that in these last few days.
You will be just fine.

Edited for clarity

[MarisaSF]

Given the same situation, I'd want to do it exactly as you've described. It seems logical and cautious, not hasty.
FWIW, I'm mad as crap at your husband for you, but I believe you that he's still a great guy and wonderful father.

[marit]

I think it is very mature to separate first and not act on an impulse. I also think that defining a time frame (1 year) is a good choice. I don't understand however, why you need the 6 months after that. I think that by the end of this year you would know what you want.

Don't worry about J turning into a "sugar daddy" while you do the discipline. Children love the ones who take care of them, and the ones that give them stability. Also, if I were you, I would omit from the plan the joined dinners shopping etc. I mean, it's nice if you can handle it, but if you get too angry or frustrated during this year that you can't help but fight in front of Toby, it's not worth it. Maybe just keep it as an option?

One last thought here. For give me for quoting Dr. Phil... but he says, time heals nothing. It's what you do with that time. Maybe you are not ready right now for couples therapy, and you need your space. But how about putting it in the plan, say after 6 months, IF you lean towards reconciliation?

BTW, forgive my ignorance, but what is DV?

Good luck,

[kath68]

I agree. I like the idea in principle -- that you are not making any permanent decisions now, you are keeping Toby's needs priority, that you are keeping DH involved on a weekly basis. It just seems so, well, micromanaged, to be honest. I don't know if I could keep to that rigorous of a schedule, and you should think of (as a back up plan) what happens when the schedule gets off track (as they always do). Otherwise you are setting up somebody to fail. Maybe you will hate going grocery shopping with DH, for example. And if grocery shopping doesn't serve your end goal, you don't want to be stuck with having to do it.

Maybe build in a check-in and readjustment of the rules like two months from now?

Like the other poster said, you are the only one who knows what will work for your family. And you are the ones who have to live with it.

I see you working so hard on this, and I admire you for it. You will get through this!

[kijip]

Thanks for the great advice. I think it seems micromanaged because I am trying to restore some control over my life- I need to check that tendancy! By nature my husband and I are both very flexible so I am not too worried about making adjustments as required which I should have made clear. Our only shared time is going to be church and groceries. The church I think will be a good lead in if we decide to go for joint therapy. The groceries serve two puposes---saving money and because I want Toby to have the time to see us both doing something that takes care of him. Sunday afternoons I would either be out of the house or sleeping while J tends to Toby and helps around the house. J and I have very, very few quarrels so I am not too worried about fighting in public. Frankly so long as we are not alone at night, I feel safe.

If the situation does not work out, if he stops getting help etc, I will file to have the seperation coverted to divorce next December. I feel I must give it a full year---6 months and I KNOW I will run back. A year will give me time to work out how I really feel and give us time to solve the problem. The 6 months after that for moving in together is mostly so we have our own spaces while we try to work towards reconcilation actively. If he did something dangerous I suppose all bets would be off and I would speed it up.

99% of me is saying divorce but I know that is the raw anger talking.

[cilantromapuche]

Since you are both flexible it will work out fine, because there is always room for adjustment. I just wanted to say that I admire your courage to do what is right (whatever that ultimately leads to...I am sure that besides your safety is the concern that Toby doesn't learn or suffer from DV) despite a high cost.

Christine

mama to A (7/03)

[marit]

You are a very very brave woman. I will be thinking of you and praying for you (even though I'm not the praying kind of girl...)
(BTW, I figured it out, I am so so sorry)

[barbarhow]

>Half of my IRL friends and family are saying I should get back
>together with him now (not going to happen) while we go to
>therapy and half are basically saying divorce NOW. I think
>this plan is best since it gives us some space to decide,
>honors what we had together and our son and allows us to plan
>ahead.
>
>Whattya think?

Katie-I think one of the most important things to remember is that your friends and your family aren't the ones who have to live with the plan. Only you and J can decide what is best for the three of you.
If I had a dime for every time someone gave me advice I would not have had to live in that tiny little studio-I could have bought a place in Trump Tower....
Listen to your heart. Flexibility may make things easier. Remember our illusion of control is just that, an illusion.
Hugs to you Mama.

Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[sidmand]

Hi Katie,

I haven't responded before because so many people had said it better, but I just wanted to say what a thoughtful and good plan you seem to have.

The fact that you will both be flexible about it speaks wonders, but I think the fact that you have it so well-thought out to meet everyone's needs is amazing. Especially in such an emotional and trying time.

I think you're right to have a period of waiting. If you don't want/need to make a decision in haste because no one is in immediate danger, then definitely, do what you need to do to be certain for everyone.

It sounds like you would be most certain after a year, so good for you for being able to plan like that.

Good luck and you and Toby will be in my thoughts.

Debbie

Mom to Sawyer!
http://lilypie.com/baby1/060607/0/3/1/-5/.png (http://lilypie.com)

[kristine_elen]

Sorry you have to go through this. ... I can't think of anything better, myself. But as the child of divorced parents who had joint custody of me (a week at mom's then a week at dad's), I can say that is not the way to go and I'm glad Toby will stay at one place primarily. I never felt settled, stuff I needed was always at the other parent's house and it was just too disruptive. I wish one of them had had custody and I visited the other, though I know that's hard on the parents.

Good luck!

[chlobo]

Katie,

I am so impressed that you can be *so* rational and thoughtful at a time like this. While all your emotions are telling you one thing you are actually stopping to think about what is best for all concerened. I am so impressed by your strength and character in what is obviously a horribly trying situation.

I think you plan sounds like a good one and I have confidence that you can make it work or make adjustments as the situation calls for. Remember we're here if you need us.

[KBecks]

I don't think it really matters what I think, it matters how you and J have negotiated this agreement, and if you both see it as a win-win for the interim period.

I don't know whether it will be painful for you to see J and spend so much time with him during your separation.

Also, does this separation agreement specify that your year apart will honor your marital commitment (i.e. no flirtation / new love interests?) Maybe that is obvious since you are still married, but I'd be sure to clarify that.

It sounds like J is tasked with quite a bit in an effort to move towards reconciliation. If there is less than a 20% chance of you guys getting back together, is his work towards that goal already fruitless?

Lastly, I think you should consider at least a little couples therapy, perhaps not right away. I feel that it will be VERY DIFFICULT to have any chance or reconciling without some support for both of you. Perhaps a marriage retreat or a retrouvialle (sp?)

You described your marriage earlier as being in the high 90's as great, so I think there's possibly hope.

Good luck,

[KBecks]

I *think* it's domestic violence.

[muskiesusan]

I think you have a very well thought out plan. I have never been involved in a situation like this, but I would think it would be best to have everything detailed ahead of time. Just alleviates any future problems with miscommunication, etc which could result in unneccessary problems and hurt feelings.

I just want to say I admire the fact you are waiting a year before taking any permanent actions, despite how you feel now. You want to have a clear head when making life decisions and you are smart as this will you give needed space to make such tough decisions.

Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01
& Alex 04/04

[Rachels]

*Don't worry about J turning into a "sugar daddy" while you do the discipline.*

I disagree. It's easy for this to happen. Children love BOTH parents, not just the custodial one. I have divorced parents and I also have a stepson. Both my husband and my dad are / were incredibly involved and responsive parents, but neither has been the custodial parent. I know that despite really committed parenting on their parts, both my mom and my stepson's mom struggled at times with feeling like they were the heavies. The thing is, I'm not sure that's avoidable. If one parent is with the child most of the time, that parent is by necessity going to have to handle most of the discipline.

What makes the most difference in my experience is giving the child the sense that the parents are still coparenting as much as that is possible. I don't think you have to go grocery shopping together to make that happen, although you can if that feels comfortable to you. But I think that staying in touch about expectations and rewards and discipline and all of that is ultimately what will be most helpful in preserving some sense of equity between Toby's two households.

Katie, this is an incredibly thoughtful plan. The only thing I'd suggest is some ideas about backup for yourself if and when parts of this plan break down. It can be incredibly frustrating when what you've mapped out isn't what's happening. Just make sure you have a way to get some support and some help thinking through your next steps should that become the case.

Thinking of you!

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.jpg


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[bensmom]

Katie,

Sounds like a well thought out plan. I think that you need to do what makes you happy (or at least what you are comfortable with). Others are not living in your situation. I think space could be a very good thing and will help you make a thoughtful decision, not one based on impulse/rage.

The only thing I might suggest (and I hesitate to do this because I'm not positive you are looking for this advice and it sounds like money is tight with the separation), but you might want to consider speaking with a family lawyer, if you have not done so already (disclaimer- I'm a lawyer, but not family law law and I know very little about family law). I know that you have indicated in previous posts that you are handling things on your own, which likely is fine, but it might be worth sitting with someone for an hour or two and reviewing your plans - just to make sure that you are not doing anything to jeopardize your custodial rights in the future if something doesn't go as planned.

Best of luck!

Ilana

CPS Tech and mom

[pb&j]

Katie -

You answer to yourself and to your son, not to your friends and family.

I think it's a very good plan, and I imagine that you will be capable of making adjustments to it if/when you need to. It really seems like you both want to ease the transition for Toby, and even if things don't go as smoothly as you'd like, I'm confident that he will sense the deliberate effort made on his behalf.


-Ry,
mom to Emma, stillborn 11/04/04
and Max, edd 01/15/06 - it's a HEALTHY BOY!

http://lilypie.com/days/060115/3/25/1/-5/.png[/img] ([img)

[aliceinwonderland]

It is not micromanaged. I have seen a friend's divorce agreement and there's provisions about who takes kid to his first baseball game, schools, etc. Also lots of "if this happens this other thing happens"...More thoughts later on email...

[mamicka]

I agree with KBecks. Your plan sounds really good & I applaude you for making Toby your priority.

Sorry you're going through such a crappy time. You'll get through it - I'll be praying for all three of you.

Allison

[kijip]

I think the work J needs to do needs to be done regardless of if we reconcile or not so it won't be futile. He needs to handle anger and stress in a way so that he never becomes violent with anyone else down the line, namely Toby. Spending a year doing that will show me he is serious about this and give me some reason to think reconcilation would work.

As for love interests, J and I have both agreed that we are not going to get involved with anyone until after a divorce would be final. As angry as I am at him, he is my husband and I have no thoughts or desires to see other people. It will be hard since I will also not have him but doable. Both of us feel that if there is even a 1% chance of reconcilation we owe it to ourselves to try since we shared such a great relationship and since we have a son. Someone has already asked me if I want to go out with them and "their nice male friend". Um, no. I do not want to be fixed up. How crazy would that be? Way too crazy. And not very faithful to J and Toby.

My prognosis for divorce is coming from the anger I have now over Toby's pain, the financial stress, the humilation of telling everyone my marriage was almost over, moving and the corresponding loss of community involvment, losing the chance to TTC another baby (last thing we need right now---luckily my period started yesterday so we are in the clear), etc. I am enraged right now and doing my level headed best not to do something stupid. I obviously need help with this anger before I can try to reconcile. I am talking to the Deacon at our church this week.

[mamicka]

Katie, I'm just blown away by your strength. If I were in your shoes, I'm not sure I would be able to make my children's best interest the top priority, as you obviously have. You're truly amazing & an inspiration.

Many, many hugs. Hang in there.

Allison

[Bethann31]

Oh, I wanted so much to read the second line of your post and have it say it was the best thing that could have happened. My children have done this for 4 years now and I hate it. I should have fought harder and I didn't and the guilt over that is sometimes (like today) overwhelming. I was advised that this 50% was the best that was going to happen at that moment in our court, so I took it. My ex had a lot more money to spend to get what he wanted than I did. Of course this is the man that never spent any time with his children UNTIL we separated, and now he is SUPER DAD, and I'm the mom with no money.

Sorry to hijack a bit.


Beth
mom to:

Josh 3/90
Mollie 4/92
Jeffrey 12/94
Katherine 6/03


http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/lamlamsvi20030604_4_Katherine+Grace+is.png

[mommyj_2]

I just wanted to send you some hugs and support. I missed the other thread, and had no idea you were going through all of this. You have incredible strength, and are obviously handling this with the most thought and care possible.
Do what feels right to you. Friends and family always have advice, but it doesn't always fit the day-to-day reality of the person to whom they are giving the advice.
Know that you will be in my thoughts.

[MarisaSF]

>the humilation of
>telling everyone my marriage was almost over

I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't think *more* highly of you after the courage and honesty you've shown.

Still sounds like a great plan. Sounds like you've thought of the potential kinks too.

[MarisaSF]

Beth- FWIW, I have a friend who has 50% custody of his kids (3 about your oldest 3's ages). His kids are thriving with the arrangement. Guess it just depends. hugs.

[brittone2]

Katie-I don't have any advice but you clearly took a lot of time to really think about your family and what is best for all of you as individuals and as a family unit. I think building in a window of a year and then re-evaluating sounds wonderful.

Please take care and know we're thinking of you. Your level-headedness in such an emotionally charged time is beyond amazing.

[deenass]

Katie,

Everyone has given you good advice so I won't offer any. But I do want to tell you that you should NOT be emabarassed by what has happened to your marriage. None of it is your fault and what you are doing is incredibly brave and courageous. You should feel proud of yourself for finding the strength to make positive choices for yourself and your son.

You are serving as such an incredible role model for your child by refusing to be a victim. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

[ribbit1019]

Katie you continue to amaze me. Probably mostly because I know I would not be the pillar of strength that you are showing to be in this situation.
I think you are doing what is right for you, Toby and J. No one can tell you how to handle the situation. I would ignore the comments and continue about your business. You sound as though you are handling things at a speed that you all can handle, and the flexibility that you are willing to have with all of your plans is a really good thing.
I wish all the best and all the strength that you can get through this and have peace with what comes of it all.

Christy
"My Mommy" to Maddy born 06/09/04
http://lilypie.com/baby2/040609/3/4/0/-5/.png
and soon to Little Man due 03/02/06
http://bd.lilypie.com/cKLom4/.png

Join the BBB Preggo Pals!!
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[kath68]

That sounds all good. You remind me a lot of an IRL friend I have in how you are going about this -- for her the issue was DH's cheating, so it is a little different. She set out a detailed plan and a timeline, and it worked pretty well for her (and her kid's) needs.

My only concern, as I stated above and you have addressed, is that you have a contingency plan for the plan. It is a good plan, and if there is a small component of it that isn't working, then it is nice to have a process in place for objecetively fixing that part without tossing the whole thing. That ensures you get the benefit of the whole year, which I agree is important for your decisionmaking (and J's development).

What has impressed me most in how you have handled this is how you are willing to air it in public. I am a firm believer that sunshine is the best disinfectant. Your relationship is public in so far as it touches/is touched by your entire community. You will need the support of many people to get through this year, and it is great that you have put everything out there so your people know what is going on and what support you actually need. People tend to tuck away these painful things from sight, and the isolation just makes it worse.

Good for you for talking about it and coping with it publicly.

[mom_hanna]

I think it sounds like you both have given this a lot of thought, and are doing what you think is best for Toby and for yourselves. That is what really matters, not what other people think. The only thing I would add is just a suggestion to be willing to be flexible. If something in your plan doesn't work out as planned, are you willing to make adjustments and perhaps try something else? Just a thought. You have a good head and heart - follow them.

[Corie]

I think it is very wise of you and your husband to
have created a plan. Like you said, it is not a rigid
plan but it reminds both of you of what you are working
for and how you are going to achieve it.

I think Toby is extremely lucky to have such a
strong Mom.

[RwnMayfair]

Katie, my parents were seperated for awhile before they finally divorced. They didn't have something quite as scheduled as you have, but they did spend time seperated rather than just divorcing instantly. So I see nothing wrong with seperating for awhile before making your final decision. Besides, it is your marriage and not everyone else's, so it's ultimately what feels right to you two.

-Melissa

Taran, November 20, 2003
Elowen, August 20, 2005

http://lilypie.com/pic/051122/0DU8.jpg http://b3.lilypie.com/11Vom5/.png
http://lilypie.com/pic/051122/bQLg.jpg http://b1.lilypie.com/9Ogqm5/.png

[Mommy_Again]

There's not much I can add, I agree with all the PPs.

But a few things:

-How are you going to ensure he is keeping up his end of the bargain? I am not sure if DV is considered an addiction, but many addicts tell spouses they have been going to AA for years when in fact they have never been to a meeting. I just don't want YOU to go crazy trying to ensure he is doing what he needs to do.

-How much input did J have into this plan? He needs to have ownership of it and have actively suggested many of the things he is charged with doing over the next year (or at least enthusiasticly agreed to them). If it's one thing I've learned from therapy, it's that they have to WANT to get help, and they have to do it for themselves (not for you, not for Toby). If they do it to make you happy, or because it's what you are demanding as a condition of reconciliation, then they are doing it for the wrong reasons and are doomed to fail. (Not saying this is what's happening with you, just general thoughts on the issue at hand).

-Perhaps consider clinician-led therapy as well as pastoral. I know your church will be a great source of comfort and support for you, but you will be dealing with such a multitude of issues that it could be beneficial for you to work it out with someone who has clinical experience dealing with the issues you are facing.

OK, well I guess I did add a bit. You are doing the right thing, and I commend and admire your levelheadedness in not making rash decisions.

A final thought, which is one that I have recently realized: Divorce isn't permanent. If that does happen, there is nothing saying you can't remarry him one day if he gets his sh*t together. It happens all the time.

[kijip]

Thanks for the helpful feed back.

>-How are you going to ensure he is keeping up his end of the
>bargain? I am not sure if DV is considered an addiction, but
>many addicts tell spouses they have been going to AA for years
>when in fact they have never been to a meeting. I just don't
>want YOU to go crazy trying to ensure he is doing what he
>needs to do.

J is joining a program where I will be included from time to time. As for individual therapy I suppose that I would not *know* that he was going but I trust him. He has never lied to me and he is chatting with me about his efforts to find a good therapist.

>-How much input did J have into this plan? He needs to have
>ownership of it and have actively suggested many of the things
>he is charged with doing over the next year (or at least
>enthusiasticly agreed to them). If it's one thing I've learned
>from therapy, it's that they have to WANT to get help, and
>they have to do it for themselves (not for you, not for Toby).

Tons...I had already filled out the divorce papers when he came to me and pleaded for a chance to reconcile after he got help. We picked the days where he will see Toby together and he suggested the part about coming over to give me time to nap and run errands after church. He seems very invested.

>-Perhaps consider clinician-led therapy as well as pastoral. I
>know your church will be a great source of comfort and support
>for you, but you will be dealing with such a multitude of
>issues that it could be beneficial for you to work it out with
>someone who has clinical experience dealing with the issues
>you are facing.

A agree but think I will start with the church and then branch out. I am not ready to go now since I am too busy trying to land on my feet housing/job wise!

[lmintzer]

Katie,
I'm struggling with how to put this, because the last thing I want to do is come across as critical. I admire you for your "zero tolerance" policy for DV and for the message that you are sending Toby by standing by what you know to be right.

Here's where I differ from the others who have responded, though. I am concerned NOT that you guys have such a tightly planned schedule but that you have so much contact with dh. I am not at all saying that there isn't a chance you guys could get through this and be back together--from what you have said, there may be, if he takes ownership of what he's done and truely wants to change. However, before he gets treatment (and the group treatment is absolutely crucial--good move getting that started), he could lash out again. Especially given that he is probably angry and hurt that you took control and called it quits. Probably if you asked him right now, he'd say "No, I'll never do it again," but stress levels are going to be higher as you get used to being apart. I'm concerned that he could lash out at you (or maybe even Toby, although you've talked about how good he is with him) under the stress of the separation.

Typically, with severe DV situations, the victim needs complete separation and safety. Since this sounds to be a less severe case, maybe some contact is okay. But being together with him at your apartment? That concerns me a bit. Also, another thought--going to church together and grocery shopping together? Those are "we're a family" activities. I know this is painful, but might this just be confusing? I know it's hard to walk that fine line, because I know you guys are aching for each other--I hear that through all you are saying. But that aching and that anger together? To me, that just calls for a little more space. To maintain safety and to really give you both some time to heal and for him to do the work he needs to do.

I don't have any magic answers as to how much togetherness is too much--maybe you need to try this and see how the plan feels. But I wouldn't hesitate to back off if you see any more warning signs for just feel still too "together" for it to be a real separation.

The one year plan seems reasonable. That's a good deal of time. But I also wouldn't plan out any further than that. You both need time. This is still so raw.

Please, please know that I'm being direct but mean it gently and helpfully. You are brave and strong to be valuing YOURSELF. Your son will learn to value himself because he sees a mama who does so. That is such a gift to him.

[kijip]

>Here's where I differ from the others who have responded,
>though. I am concerned NOT that you guys have such a tightly
>planned schedule but that you have so much contact with dh.

I was worried about that which is why it is crafted to be limited to public places or during the day. All of the past occurances have been when we are alone, at home and at night. My brother or mother would be around on Sunday as well. I tend to get stressed when things get messy but when under a lot of stress, I am more likely to let things get messy. That is why I snapped up the offer to have him over after church so I could get out, nap or whatever and J could take care of a few things around the house related to Toby. He is a whiz at that and having a cleaner place will take the pressure off me. Like I said, my brother or other family would be around the whole time as well.



>am not at all saying that there isn't a chance you guys could
>get through this and be back together--from what you have
>said, there may be, if he takes ownership of what he's done
>and truely wants to change.

I am very, very down on the idea of reconciling but want to hold out the option for later, IYKWIM. SO I tend to think of this as a VERY slim chance.

But being together
>with him at your apartment? That concerns me a bit.

Like I said, thankfully we would not be alone.

Also,
>another thought--going to church together and grocery shopping
>together? Those are "we're a family" activities.

I really think that Toby needs that because we are a family of sorts even if we never get back together. We brought a life into the world together, we don't get to just walk away from each other unless someone is in danger. Also, we will be getting a lot of support from church. So I feel comfortable with that, especially since they are public places. It is not like we are going to eat dinner together, spend the night together or celebrate holidays together. I can honestly say that I am not in danger from my husband.

To me, that just calls for a
>little more space. To maintain safety and to really give you
>both some time to heal and for him to do the work he needs to
>do.
>
>I don't have any magic answers as to how much togetherness is
>too much--maybe you need to try this and see how the plan
>feels. But I wouldn't hesitate to back off if you see any more
>warning signs for just feel still too "together" for it to be
>a real separation.

I really appriciate the feedback and the support. I don't think your remarks are critical at all. I actually think I can incorporate a lot of what you said into my plan as I move forward.

[mudder17]

Katie, I basically agree with a lot of other people. You have a very well thought out plan that puts Toby's welfare ahead of everything else, with flexibility in both you and J so that I think it has a good chance of succeeding. I also do think that it's one of those plans where you will likely revisit it every couple months just to see that it's working towards something positive, whether it means that you will actually divorce or not.

You and J are the only ones who know what is really happening and what will work for you and clearly, you are thinking of Toby as well as trying not to make any hasty decisions. Your friends and family really do mean well, but they're not the ones who will have to live with whatever decision you make, so you're the ones who have to make the decision that you can all live with, and that includes Toby. As you try this for the first couple months, you'll be able to figure out what needs changing, but I would certainly give your plan a try right now.

I am probably repeating a lot of what others have said, but I mostly wanted to post to let you know that you and your family have been on my mind and prayers and in fact, I dedicated my yoga practice tonight to you. Your strength and courage, and your love for your son (and your husband) are amazing and you WILL get through this. And of course, know that you have an amazing support group here as well!

Many, many hugs and much love,

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[crayonblue]

Katie-

I emailed you.

[lmintzer]

Katie,
I'm glad you took my remarks in the manner I intended them. : ) I'm also glad you are planning to have another person there when you guys are alone. And maybe even someone when you're out doing errands so that he isn't alone with Toby. That's really a great idea.

If you guys feel that family activities are what Toby needs, then you know best. As long as you are looking out for your safety (which you surely seem to be doing).

I think you're right to target at home/alone time as the most risky. I doubt anything would ever happen in public either.

Keep us posted!

[mamato1]

Katie-
I do not post here a great deal and while I have been keeping you in my thoughts and admiring your amazing strength and courage I have not chimed in until now. Let me start with saying I am awed by your grace in this ridiculously difficult situation. I am also inspired by your dedication to your child. In my line of work I do not see that as often as I would like, which is my sugue into what I would like to add to the conversation.

I am a school counselor and have a master's degree in counseling psychology. My impression of your plan it that it is comprehensive, well thought-out, and "bullet proof." It's the bullet proof part that has me worried. It is so natural (and typical) of someone who has felt out of control in their life to seize back control and hold on to it at all costs. I understand that need in you. The problem is that life rarely works that way. Like previous posters, I am worried about the what-ifs. If part of the plan tanks, what happens to the rest of the plan. I would urge you to have lots on contingencies in mind for the curve balls that life is likely to throw at you. i would also urge, plead really, for you to get professional help as soon as you are able. you are right when you talk about your anger douing the thinking for you and, in my experience, that does not go away with out lots of hard work on your part with a professional to help guide you.

I hope this is not out of line as I have been silent until now. I am so impressed with you and your resolve that I wanted to add my thoughts. May there be peace in your life no matter what you have to do to find it!
Chris

Mama to Brendan (aka Boomer) 01/04

http://lilypie.com/baby2/040116/0/1/3/-6/.png

[JacksMommy]

Overall, this sounds like an excellent plan. I don't think it's possible to be too specific about things in these situations. The more specificity there is, the more clarity there is and that's really important. And if you are both able to be flexible, that's a really good thing, too.

I agree with your decision not to have couples' counseling right away. Couples therapy is not indicated in DV situations until the perpetrator (if not both) has had his/her own counseling and therapy. Couples therapy is about working on communication and how to achieve mutual goals. DV is not a couples' issue, it is an issue that needs to be addressed by the perpetrator of the violence. Of course later on there might be couples' issues addressed (if relevant) such as re-establishing trust after DV, etc, if you decided to reconcile.

The family togetherness activities may pose a problem for you down the road, particularly if your feelings for him change substantially over time. I have a friend who had a very friendly divorce (such as it can be) who then became more irritated with her ex over time, particularly as he didn't live up to the agreement, and she really didn't want to spend the together time they had agreed on. I'm not sure that kids really benefit from their parents spending time together, in and of itself. The best results for children come from business-like interactions between parents. It can be confusing when things are too friendly. I'm saying this as something to keep in mind, not necessarily because I think you should change your plans.

As for counseling/therapy, as a therapist, I lean towards professionals but the church is obviously a great source of support for many. The only thing to be careful about is finding someone who will be objective and help you decide what you really want to do. Sometimes (but not always) people have difficulty with ministers who know the spouse as well and may be subtly (or not so!) pressuing reconciliation. The benefit of a pro is that they truly will only be on your side.

I think you are doing a great job with this. As people have said, no one else can decide this stuff for you. You are not in an easy situation. Good luck with everything and I will be interested to hear how things go.

Laurel
WOHM to Jack, 6/4/02
Baby Madeline 12/14/04

[lmintzer]

Just wanted to add that Laurel echoed a few more thought that I had (but didn't get out--my cold and stuffy head are making it hard to think).

I, also, as a therapist tend to lean against counseling from religious figures. I know that some people feel more comfortable starting off there--they feel there is an underlying connection (as opposed to starting off with a therapist who they know nothing about). But because of some of the beliefs out there about the sanctity of marriage, I, too, would worry that the bias would be toward reconciliation. Hopefully, a good minister (or other clergy member) would put safety above all else. I know even in Orthodox Judaism (that is about as strict as you get), a rabbi would support a woman who wanted a divorce due to DV.

From the literature on children of divorce, the single biggest factor in predicting how a child will cope and adapt is how the parents interact. (There's this belief out there that it's best to stay married for the sake of the children.) It's poorly handled anger, conflict, bickering over visitation, etc., that hurt the kids. And also witnessing violence. In college, I did some DV research with a professor who specialized in DV (after her own sister was a victim). One of the things that stuck with me is this. Women who say, "But he is a good father," about their husbands (or ex-husbands) are not fully correct. It is NOT possible to be a good parent while hurting that beloved child's other beloved parent. Your dh will probably hear this in his group. Despite all other good parenting, he is failing if he is hurting you. Nothing is more confusing or scary to a child.

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit--I'm sorry--we're all sick here, and the Sudafed and tea are failing me. : (

[jacksmomtobe]

Katie,

Well you have put a ton of thought into your plan! I hope all goes smoothly for you and whatever the outcome is that it is the best for you. I'm glad that you are making sure during this time that you are safe and others are around when your husband is visiting. Personally I think it would be tough being around an ex (husband nor ex really sounds right in this situation)so much however I understand your reasoning. You are definitely putting your child first. And it may be beneficial for you because you will have a closer view on what is going on with your husband and his behavior so even if you don't get back together at least moving forward you can either decide to limit his contact with your child if his behavior warrants it or feel a level of confidence that your child would be safe with him. One comment as a child of divorce which may not come into play yet since I'm unsure of Toby's age...but spending time together with both parents didn't work for me in my family. My parents were separated a long, long time before they finally divorce (though there was no expectation of them getting back together) and early on they would spend time together with us on Christmas Eve. It was AWFUL! My parents never fought in front of me but there is just this tension there that I could sense as a kid and it made me miserable. Things got so much better when they stopped trying to have us all together. As the youngest I always felt torn and in the middle during this holiday gathering. One last thought as a child of divorce..do what is right for you there..staying together for a child does the child a disservice because children sense the tension,etc.

My heart goes out to you! Stay strong!

[em_jon98]

Katie,

I don't know the situation very well because I am largely taking a break from the boards to deal with my own medical and personal issues, but I would agree with Ilana on this one. Even though you feel like you have it all worked out and J is on board, I would suggest you contact your local legal aid office (since you don't have income at this point, you would probably qualify for at least some free legal assistance) just to get some referrals in case things start to head downhill. I would want to see you protect yourself physically, emotionally, and legally during what is going to be a very difficult time for you and your husband.

I applaud your agreement and that your husband has had input into it, but I fear for what would happen if he decided that he wanted out and decided to hire an attorney on his own, without telling you, to protect his interests.

I just think you should have an attorney review your seperation agreement, and be open with your husband that you are having it done do that he does not feel blindsided by it. Let him know that you are doing it to protect you both, as well as Toby, because you are.

My parent's divorce got very messy because they only negotiated between their attorneys. Now, my father works as a mediator and does a lot of divorce and family court mediations. It is his strong belief that people are in the right to seek legal counsel to at least review agreements where childern are involved for the safety of the children and the peace of mind for the parents. You aren't using the attorney as a weapon, but instead to keep the peace that the two of you have already negotiated together and to make sure that your agreement is valid.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. You have a hefty load to carry up a mountainious road ahead of you, but you I believe you are strong enough to do it, no matter what the outcome. You and your husband owe it to Toby to go through this process, and I'm glad to see you make the choice to do it. I would be the one to walk out the door and never look back if I were in your shoes, so I applaud your strength in committing to this process. I hope that it brings you peace, although it may come at a cost.