Need BTDT advice about sibling issues, discipline w/ 3-y/o - LONG!

[C99]

I am feeling like my parenting is all over the place these days. What is Mary (mharling)’s motto? Some days work and some days don't. Lately, it feels like most days do not work. I'm just having a hard time altogether and need some encouragement, support, and possibly advice from BTDT parents. If your child has not hit this stage or bypassed it, feel smug as you read this and go on. ;-)

I've been working hard to meet a deadline (which was today), so I haven't been getting much sleep, plus I am coming down with a cold, and I know that has affected my patience level and ability to cope. I also seem to not be able to get both kids napping consistently at the same time, so I feel like I never catch a daytime break and that affects my patience as well. With that disclaimer out of the way, I am feeling out of control as a parent. Of late, Nathaniel has been pretty rotten: not listening or paying attention, seemingly being deliberately defiant, aggressive, screaming, sitting on or pushing his sister, and throwing long and loud temper tantrums when he does not get his way or does not want to do something. I just don’t know what to do with him to try to curb or correct some of this behavior. He’ll be 3 in 3 weeks (eek!). I had heard that the 3s were worse than the 2s; I didn’t want to believe it, but now I have no choice: they are. I don’t know who those beautifully developed kids that Burton White talks about are, but they are clearly not mine. Oh well.

I used to say that I didn’t understand why parents spank their children. Now, I understand (not that I’ve done it). I’ve read that spanking is an adult having a temper tantrum. I still believe that is true, but when I am in the heat of the moment and I have one kid crying and the other kid laughing maniacally because he’s just done something rotten and thinks he’s getting it away with it, well, my blood is boiling. Intellectually, I know that Nate just hasn't developed to the point where he can control his impulses, so even if he "knows" not to do something, he can't always control it. I need some suggestions for how to effectively deal with his behavior so that he understands what he’s done is wrong or undesirable. I don’t necessarily want to punish him (although in the heat in the moment I often feel differently), but I do want him to realize that his behavior has consequences and some behaviors are just not acceptable. How can I get Nate back on track or at least minimize the tantrums/bad behavior?

Timeouts don’t seem to be working, so I am looking for suggestions to improve their effectiveness or alternatives to the timeout. This is partially because we’ve lost a place to give him for timeouts. He finally discovered that he could climb out of his crib, and that is where we used to put him for timeout (mostly for the immobilization factor), but since he can climb out and he’s so close to 3, we just took the rails off his crib and converted it to a toddler bed. He is excited by the prospect of his “big boy bed� and actually wants to go to his room during the day. So sending him to his room does not seem to be an effective discipline technique right now. It’s also a practical matter because it’s very difficult to carry a baby and a screaming, writhing toddler up the stairs by myself. Plus, sometimes he wants to go to his room and I will not let him because Rose is asleep and I don’t want him to wake her; yesterday, he threw a plastic chair across the room so that he could get into timeout. Pretty sneaky, huh? I’ve tried putting him into timeout in a corner, on the bottom stair, etc. They just don’t work because Rose will crawl over to check him out and giggle at him and I have to stand there and make sure he doesn’t move. Somewhat related to this is the issue of his bedroom door; I wish I had magical powers to make it disappear when he’s slamming it in his sister’s face (or on her hand) to keep her out or turn it into a solid hunk of metal that he couldn’t open when he’s supposed to be in his room for timeout. My thoughts on this are to either put a hook-and-eye closure on the top of his door so that when he’s in timeout, he knows he is and cannot get out, or put a gate at the top of the stairs, which we probably need to do anyway for Rose (for now, 2 square laundry baskets wedged in the hall do the trick nicely).

Another issue is that Rose is increasingly interested in Nate’s toys, which annoys him to no end. He will often push her away, pull her off something, try to move her, or otherwise impede her progress if she is on/near one of his toys. To be fair, he can be totally sweet to her as well, but my standard approach to this kind of stuff is to tell Nate that Rose just thinks he’s interesting and wants to be near him and that he can’t hit/push/pull/kick/try to move her. If it continues, I will warn him that he will either get a timeout or he will lose the toy. I don’t think he’s at the age where he would understand losing a privilege or missing an opportunity to do something, KWIM? Is there any way that I can discourage him from thinking of her as competition? And, what do I do when I need to both comfort Rose and discipline Nate at the same instant?

And if anyone has any suggestions for how to get him to stop or minimize the piddly annoying behaviors he has that aren’t timeoutable but just annoying, I’m all ears. I’m talking about things like throwing Rose’s toys down the back stairwell just because he can, knocking various things off the kitchen counter just because he can, etc. I suppose these are easier to cope with if the big tantrum stuff is minimal.

Finally (yes, I know this is really long!), I have a question about the transition from the crib to a toddler or twin bed. How long does it take? Although Nate is excited about the big boy bed, he keeps trying to sleep on the floor. I don’t really care where he sleeps as long as he sleeps, but for naptimes especially (which are pretty uncommon these days because it’s an hour of effort for an hour-long nap even though I know he needs them because he falls asleep in the car), it seems to be a huge stalling tactic. It’s like the kid has OCD and has to lay out his blanket and pillow just so about 8 times before he can finally lay down and go to sleep. He will sometimes ask me for help, but expect me to know what is going on in his head and gets upset (crying) if I don’t know how he wants me to arrange things.

TIA!

[Sarah1]

Caroline,

I can't address the issue of Nate being annoyed by Rose (since Oscar isn't mobile yet), but Audrey is a challenging 3 y.o. so I can speak to a few of your issues. I also think she and Nate are similar in temperament.

First of all--the transition to the bed. Naptime was the toughest, although Audrey dropped her nap a few mos ago. The transition didn't take that long (like a few days?) because we had to be super tough with her after a few days of her really manipulating the situation. We essentially had to lock Audrey in her room because she kept getting out of her bed. We gave her multiple warnings, but she wouldn't listen, so we locked her door. I know that sounds mean, but it worked. We did have to endure listening to a chaotic episode in her room (throwing things around, slamming her body against the wall, etc etc--it was pretty bad) but she fell asleep and after that, she went into her bed and STAYED when we told her, because she didn't want her door locked again.

Time-outs are less effective these days for us too. I do two different things.

1) I find now that Audrey is older, it works better to take privileges away from her. You mentioned you didn't think Nate would understand losing a privilege, but maybe at some point he would? For example, Audrey gets to watch a show (something we've Tivo'ed) every night after her bath. It is the end of the world to her if she doesn't get to do this, so she shapes up pretty quickly if I threaten to take it away.

2) Another piece of advice Audrey's preschool teacher gave me was to walk away from Audrey when she misbehaves and say something along the lines of "You are being very unpleasant right now and I don't want to be around you right now". I was skeptical but this actually works pretty well. Maybe you could ask one of his MDO teachers what they do at school and mimic that at home. Just a thought.

Finally I just want to recommend a great book to you. It was recommended to a good friend of mine (who has a 3 yo!) by her therapist. It's called "Parenting Young Children: Systematic Training for Effective Parenting of Children Under Six." (ETA the author: Dinkmeyer et al) It is extremely concrete and specific (not vague like Burton White) with lots of examples and scenarios. It focuses a lot on positive communication and finding ways to say "yes" to your child instead of no. I really recommend it. I think when Audrey and I are communicating well and she feels empowered, she misbehaves a lot less.

I'm sorry you're having a rough time. I hope things get better!

[janeybwild]

Caroline, I think you've done a great job laying out the dilemmas you are facing with parenting. I applaud you for asking for suggestions, and I only wish I had something more useful to offer you. I do think that what you are facing is so very common, and I hope that you will get lots of great ideas from the more experienced toddler moms here.

We haven't gotten where you are (yet), but the tantrums and possessiveness are beginning. Being in charge of the situation suddenly seems to be very important to Megan and perhaps Nate too, perhaps as they are figuring out their places in the world. We’ve had to come up with some creative ways to give Megan choices so that she feels she is in control. This is probably the area where I feel we can be the most successful. But, it can be exhausting quite frankly.

We have really started to pick our battles too. I let more go now than I did a few months ago, but by focusing on the big things, she’s more likely to listen. I think this age is all about testing the things that are around them (i.e. you). Napping is one area where stress can be high in our house. So, I decided that if she doesn’t nap, then quiet time in her room is enough (we’re lucky that she doesn’t get out of the bed though), and I wasn’t going to stress about it so much. It got better the next week :). We’re careful to try to not raise our voices, but she picks up on anxiety and stress in a situation so easily and that is when the meltdown begins…in other words, at the worst possible moment. So, I'm trying to work on recognizing stress in myself and figuring out how to defuse the situation and turn it into a funny mommy moment (e.g. Dana's had a blowout, the phone is ringing, Megan lunch is burning, UPS is at the door.....you can picture the moment I’m sure). We are also trying to do the 3 positive comments for every negative/"don’t do that" comment we make. That’s harder than it sounds some days.

I know that them not napping together is a pain, but it could also (sort of) be a blessing. Some days poor Dana doesn’t get much one on one time until Megan naps. Megan is generally helpful to me with getting Dana ready because she knows special mommy-Megan time is coming when Dana naps (reading, baking, puzzles, painting etc.). On days when Megan's the crankiest is when I try to do really fun things (playing physical games like furniture tag, pretend animals, fort building etc.). But quite frankly those are the days when she is least fun to play with. I have given up the idea of getting anything non-child related done when the kids are awake, and that way I can enjoy the satisfaction of the times when I can get stuff done, instead of focusing on the things I haven't gotten to and always feeling behind.

The Love and Logic parenting book is on my list of books to check out because I feel that I need a parenting "strategy" that goes beyond timeouts (which aren't all that helpful in my house when a tantrum is in full tilt!). I'm not sure if that's something you've seen or not, but it might be worth a look. I’m searching for a general approach that suits our personalities and hope that there might be something useful in that book. Looking forward to hearing what others have to say. I hope you can get just one idea/strategy/bit of comfort from each response. Hang in there :)

[mommy_someday]

Caroline, I just wanted to send you some sympathy and hugs. It sounds like you're really having a rough time. Can you put a crib tent on Nate's crib to keep him in there? No idea if that would work, but if it did, you would have your time-out spot back. I hope things get better for you soon. Hang in there!

[kelly ann]

Caroline-

I understand what you are going through. We are experiencing some of the same things with our 3 year old.

The big one for us is the toys and the fact that the new crawler of the household is attracted to anything that DS is playing with. My daughter is so determined and will not stop until she gets the toy and my DS is very sensitive (translation - whiny :( ) Anyway, we have set up the Pack and Play downstairs for DD. If DS wants to play with a toy that is not appropriate for DD, then we will start putting her in the Pack N Play to play with her toys. I also have a play yard that we will probably use to separate the two children every so often during the day. This is probably better since it is larger and DD can crawl around a lot more.

As for the time outs...we have always used a corner of the living room. I would keep trying that out and maybe place Rose in a Pack N Play so she can't go giggle at him. We also have trouble keeping DS in the corner, but he will usually stay close to the corner if we threaten him with 2 time outs.

Good luck during this trying time - Hugs to you :)

[muskiesusan]

Caroline, I don't have time to post now, but we went through (and sometimes still are!) many of these same problems. I will write more later, but hang in there!


Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01
& Alex 04/04

[Lynnie]

I don't have much advice to add - what I read all sounds good - just wanted to tell you to hang in there, and that it does get better. It really does ! your son will not grow into one of those snotty bratty kids and stay that way for the rest of his life - I can tell by the type of parent you sound like you are !

I have two sons, who will be 4 and 2 in april, and my DS1 went through a phase like that, peaking last august (at 3 yrs 4 months) when we were at the inlaws beach house for a two week vacation. The sweet child they (and I) knew and loved seemed to have been replaced by a moody, bratty, selfish, disrespectful midget adolescent. I was beside myself, wondering what we had done wrong, how we could get him back on track, etc. And embarrassed as all get out to have him taking all the bad behaviours he had been practicing and trying them out at beloved bubbe and grandpas (very nice, and not altogether kid friendly) house !

However, once we got home, and he got back into a routine, he morphed back into his old sweet self, but more a mature one (as mature as a 3 1/2 year old can be...) and much more responsive to discipline, such as time outs, going to bed early, or losing privileges.

I think it is especially tough when you do have other pressures, such as deadlines, and when you are divided between the two kids - the big one who hip checks the little one who falls to the floor, or who slams the door on the little one's fingers resulting in a trip to the emergency room - it is very hard to fully concentrate on the one to discipline, when you need to be attending to the other. Luckily, at this age, in my experience, they can remember more what happened, and you can talk to them after the fact. Let them know right away as you comfort the little one, that what they did is unacceptable, and then go into more a more detailed discussion later.

As far as the time out goes, do you have a high chair with straps ?? DS 1 was out of the crib at 20 months (not DS2, no way !!) so I would sit him in the highchair with no toys for a minute or two. I know the nanny show says you are supposed to sit them in a chair, and then put them back every time they would get up, but I could not do that and attend to the other child, so I on some occasions I would put him in the highchair facing away from me.

Anyway, I didn't mean this to be so long, but I just wanted to tell you that I was in the same exact situation, and didn't really do anything radically different, just tried to be consistent with the discipline and follow through with consequences, and he really did grow out of it. I also tried to remember to set aside special time with him, after I put the little one to bed, and he really liked that - in addition to reading a story or something together, I would aslo call it special ds-mommy time, and we'd just spend a little time talking, or munching on popcorn at the kitchen table, or playing basketball in his room with the label "special time" attached (don't know if that is connected with him outgrowing the terrible behaviour ??) But, for the last several monhts things have been WONDERFUL - The tantrums have all but disappeared, he *generally* does not push his little brother around, he responds to instructions (although occasionally I have to count one two three) and he is a joy to be around, almost all of the time.

SO, I am not being smug (in the least !! I know I have one more coming up, yikes !) but I just wanted to let you know that it REALLY DOES GET BETTER. Save your original post, and look back at it in about six months, maybe less, and I bet you won't recognize that almost three year old you are describing.

[mommyj_2]

Hugs to you.
I wanted to recommend the book Positive Discipline. They have one for preschoolers. There are a lot of ideas for approaches that are more positive, and which might help minimize the battle of the wills that seems to be happening between you and your DS.
As I read through your post, it struck me that you seem to be approaching your DD from a place of compassion, whereas you're in the position of approaching your DS from a place of authority. I know this is natural, since your DD can't defend herself--my DS is younger than my niece, and when they play together, I really have to pay attention to make sure I'm putting myself in my niece's shoes and not just jumping on my first instinct, which is to feel like my DS is being bullied and trying to protect him. (BTW, my niece is 3, so the behaviors you describe are very familiar to me). I think the Positive Discipline book might give you some ideas on how to approach your DS differently, which might lead to some big differences in his behavior.
If he feels like you think he's rotten, he's going to act out even more. His bevaviors sound very normal to me, rather than "rotten."
It seems like your frustration is (understandably) being directed toward your DS, but I'm guessing he senses this, and it makes him want to act out towards his sister even more. He probably internalizes the fact that his sister can violate his boundaries (by taking his toys, playing in his space, etc.), but that he cannot do the same (since he gets in trouble if he takes her toys, grabs her things, etc.). I think the PPs suggestion for a Pack N Play is a good one, because it would give your DS a break where he would be able to play with his things without feeling threatened or feeling like he needs to protect them from his DD. Also, what about changing the approach from time-outs to making it a positive thing for him to have some alone time (not where he's forced into a particular place, or locked in his room), but where you have some talks with him that he seems like he wants some time alone, and now that he is a big boy, and is responsible, he can have some time alone when he needs it. This would be a way of teaching him about establishing his own boundaries and recognizing his needs in a positive way. It might take a while to kick in, since he's used to time outs, but it might be worth a try. We've done this with my niece, and it's really helped out a lot.
Do you have someone who can help you out to give you a break to rest? That might help a lot. We all have a harder time not being frustrated when we're tired (not to mention coming down with a cold).
I hope you feel better soon.

[Karenn]

Caroline,
I'm sick and doped up on cold medicine so I'm not very coherent, but I did want to say I've totally BTDT! Six months ago I could have written your post. The part about finally understanding why parents feel like spanking really hit home. It's gotten a little better.

I read Easy to Love Difficult to Discipline and that helped me refine things a little bit. I also spent a lot of time reading at this website [http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?board=19.0] Everybody and their brother has been linking to it lately, but I'm doing it again because the ideas there really did help. Obviously, it's a religious site, but I think if you can sift through the religious stuff, the discipline stuff is still really helpful. Most of what I took away from the discipline board really relates to discipline more than religion.

The other thing that really helped was getting more sleep. Easier said than done, I know, but it really did help.

I've said it before, but it's so true: Three is hard! Hang in there!

[mharling]

I hear ya' Caroline. I have to say that Faye is pretty feisty and holds her own pretty well with Lane, but now that they want each other's toys, it's more trying. I'll come back with more, just wanted to let you know that I had seen this.

ETA: Yikes, don't know where to start because I have lots of rambling thoughts.

#1 - The best thing I have to give to Lane is time. Not just devoted play time, but lots of time to move from one thing to the next. For example, if I allow extra time to get to the car, I'm more patient when he checks things out along the way, wants to run and pick something up, etc. I think being able to do this shows him that I respect him and has a spillover into the rest of the day, including playtime.

#2 - Lane's big boy bed transition was tough. After a few weeks, he did go back to normal naps. But, he was younger than Nate and is now really fighting them again. Nate's could be more related to age than to the bed. I'd just let him be and if he falls asleep, great. We put a gate Lane's door and I love the peace of mind that even if he does get out of bed, he can't get out. It also allows us to still hear him.

#3 - Like Lori said, I do try to "reprimand" Faye every once in a while too. I'll say, "Lane's playing with that" and move her to something else. I figure if Lane sees that there are times she can't play with his toys, he'll hopefully eventually catch on that there are times he can't play with her toys.

#4 - Lane and I sometimes take timeouts together. I'll issue the verbal piece and then sometimes he wants a snuggle and we'll sit on the couch together. I did set the Pack and Play in our main play area a few weeks a go, so there's somewhere to put Faye if I can't keep my eye on her (of course she doesn't always like it when she goes in there!).

We have A LONG ways to go. There are some good ideas and reminders for me in this thread too. As much as Lane KNOWS he's supposed to be gentle, share, etc. it's so hard to put into practice when his brain is running so fast. Good luck!!

Mary - Some days work. Some days don't.

[boys2enough]

Caroline,

{{{hugs}}} for your being sick and overtired and lack of sleep. yes, some days it does make you wonder why me???!!! Chances are though every mom feels this way. As you can see, you are definitely not alone.

Don't have much to share in terms of disciplines since my boys are wild beyond belief. This does get better with age. I am not gloating though, since when they get older, you have a different set of challenges, such as sassy mouth. For example, DH finally read my 7 yo riot act yesterday. Now DS1 has to answer our questions with "Yes, mom" and "Yes, dad." We will see how long this lasts.

I just want to add something about time-outs. We have been using 1-2-3 magic and time-outs for a certain degree of success. Better with DS1 when he's young than with DS2, b/c of different personalities. Have you tried a kitchen chair turned towards the wall at the corner? By making him sitting in a chair (where his feet can’t touch the floor), you give a clear boundary of where he’s supposed to be during time out. (My 7 yo has attempted one foot touching the corner of the wall ruse…) When G was about 2, he thought it was funny and would get out. We immediately brought him back to the chair. He quickly got the idea. Not happy, but he got it. We also use the kitchen timer to let him know that when it beeps, he can get out.

While I was writing, it occurred to me that when a younger child attempts to climb down the chair, they may fall and bump their head, etc. It works for us though because DS2 would just sit and cry in the chair. He sometimes even refuses to get out the chair when the time is up, like he’s holding a grudge…


Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

http://smilies.vidahost.com/kao/otn/pcomputer.gif

[american_mama]

Caroline:

I wish I had a magic answer because I spent many months knowing exactly why parents spank (and sometimes succumbing to it myself). Even though I know each family is different, I definitely know the incredible frustration that you are feeling.

When Nate's doing his gyrations trying to get the bed exactly right, once you've figured out that he wanted X, try saying "Nate, when you want X, say 'I want X." Make sure X is very simple for him to say and clear to you. You may find that he consistently wants the same thing and things are better once he has a script to use to ask for it. I did this when my 3 year old was always having fits about how she wanted the bath towel after a bath. Once I figured out that the major problem point was making the towel opne in front, I told my DD to say "I want the opening in front" and she started doing it. She just was too frustrated or too little to think of the right words to say on her own.

I would advocate putting a lock on his door for timeout. Our new house came with a thumb lock on the outside of DD's bedroom door, and after one particular bad spanking episode (my last one, and one which warranted a post in Bitching Post), we started locking DD in her bedroom at night. We did it frequently if she warranted it for about three weeks, and her bedtime wanderings diminshed a lot. We use it occasionally now, sometimes the threat is enough.

Also napping doesn't have to be sleeping. From ages 3 year to 3 1/2 years, my DD usually got an hour of quiet time in her bedroom, which occasionally turned into a nap. I used a timer (which she enjoyed setting, so it was a fun thing not a punitive thing) so she knew to come out when it dinged and didn't bother me (much) by asking to come out before. If DD did fall asleep, the timer would also make me aware of the time so I could awaken her instead of letting her nap for so long that it interfered with her bedtime.

The timer also worked well for timeouts in her timeout spot downstairs. She knew that if she came out, she got another minute on the timer, which was more exact than my keeping mental track. Is there any downstairs spot in your hosue that would be a good timeout spot for Nate (boring, out of the way, somewhat confined)? In our old house, ours was in a walkway leading to the downstairs bathroom, Then again, Annelise wasn't crawling then and ccoulnd't bother Amara, so I don't know how well it would have worked at a later stage.

I also took a parenting class and attended a few parenting workshops, although the lessons from them are murky in my brain right now. Child care was free. You might look into that by calling your local Children, Youth and Families agency or information and referral number.

[DDowning]

Oh man, Caroline, I so know where you're coming from and Carson is a lot younger than Nate. You're telling me it gets worse? Lord help me!

Here's a couple of suggestions for you to consider. Re: door slamming. We have used with good success the foam c-clamps that you place at the top of the door. I believe we got them at Home Depot?

Re: Opening Doors. Do you remember when I posted about Carson's midnight party one night? We put this gate up afterwards and it has contained him in his room ever since: http://tinyurl.com/7zueu
It says it only goes up to 24 months but Carson's not heavy enough to put enough weight on the step to be able to open it by himself. After I put him in his bed, I know he'll get up some times but he can't get out. I'll check on him later and often I'll find him sleeping next to the gate. I'll then put him back in bed and he'll stay there until morning.

Re: Timeouts. I have this timer that I use: http://tinyurl.com/bbco9. You're able to program the different sections for varying lengths and you can program a different sounds to signal when time is up. Currently, I have it set for 2 minutes: When I first start it, there's a tick-tick sound for the green for the first minute and a half. It will then change to yellow and again have a tick tick sound for the next 20 seconds. Then it will beep when it turns red for the last ten seconds. Finally when the time is up, there's a loud "TIME'S UP" (you can program other sounds). Carson knows to stay put until he hears the Time's up voice. Its a little hoakey but hey, you do what works!

As far as Rose handling Nate's toys against his wishes, I haven't figured that one out yet myself. Sometimes putting Chloe in a walker helps, sometimes distracting her with some other toy works. I think no matter what I give her, it seems Carson's toys are always more interesting and then the fighting starts again. Sigh.

Re: Annoying, destructive behaviors; I thought Carson was the only one that did that! When he does this, I know he's bored and trying to get attention any way he can get this. I'm taking a page out of Supernanny and trying to structure his day better so that he knows when he can have mommy's attention and when he needs to play by himself. I've no where near perfected a schedule but I'm getting better day by day about it.

So, no smugness here, just sympathy. One thing that helps me gain control in the middle of one of Carson's tantrums or difficult behaviors to say outloud over and over again "Its so hard being two!". No, it doesn't change the behavior but it helps me keep my control and at least keep my wits about me and approach the situation from an adult perspective.

Hugs to you!

[lizajane]

haven't read other responses, but here goes my 2 cents...

first the bed:
let him sleep on the floor. as my ped said when i told her that he slept on the floor, "so?" the laying out of the blanket ritual probably is a stall tactic. let him. walk away and let him get himself ready for his floor-nap in the perfect blanket while you attend to rose. maybe if you ignore the blanket thing, he will see that it is unintersting to you and that he STILL has to take a nap no matter how many times he rearranges his blanket. GET A DOOR KNOB COVER so he can't open his own door. tell him if he stays in his room and takes his nap, you won't use it. but if he tries to get up or leave the room, the cover goes on so that he will remember it is nap time and he needs to stay in his bed (or on the floor.) use it for time outs, too. (i don't mean to sound ugly here, just trying to type fast before the baby wakes up!! so being very matter of fact!)

as for the behavior... mine are 11 months and almost 3. if i stop for a minute to deal with the 3 year old, the baby is all the way at the top of the stairs in a flash eating toilet paper or fishing around in the diaper pail. i have a gate at the top of the stairs, the bottom of the stairs, on the doorway to the living room and there are doors on all other exits from the kitchen. so i can contain him in the kitchen or in the playroom in the basement so i can deal with schuyler or laundry. find a way to keep the baby safe so you have time to deal with nate.

i really don't mean this in an obnoxious way, i promise! but i feel like i have to say it because it is truly my best advice. so here goes. i think nate's ugly behavior is a response to your stress. when i am out of control, my child is out of control. ALWAYS. if schuyler is tired or hungry, he acts out. if *I* am tired or hungry, or late, or busy, or anxious, schuyler acts out. the more i get angry or frustrated or the more i disipline him, the more frustrating his behavior becomes. so my advice, take it or leave it, is this- spend as much positive time with him as you can. lavish on the praise (i love the way you are sharing with your sister. i love the way you picked up your toys and put them away. i love the way you took your nap like a big boy. i love the drawing you made for me. i love to hear you sing...) if he spins out of control, give him a time out in your lap. hold him close and tell him you understand how hard it can be to share with his sister, but it is so important for him to help you teach her all kinds of things. you understand that mommy has been so busy and it hurts his feelings. etc. a little lap-time can go a long way.

hope that helps.

[bnme]

Liza,

I just want to say that your last comment is the best advice ever. I've been following this thread because I have 2 boys and often encounter the same issues. I know my 3 yo often starts acting out when I am stressed. Although I KNOW I am the one that needs to break the cycle (or just plain not start it), it is easy to forget and get caught up in the day-to-day and not take the much needed step back to and see whats going on.

This was a reminder that I needed to see, thank you!

[Momof3Labs]

Caroline, you've gotten a lot of good suggestions already, but I wanted to chime in on a few specific things.

First of all, he might be giving up his naps altogether (common at 3yo, I'm sorry to say), which is why they are such a battle. DS did this, but will still occasionally fall asleep in the car. So it's not like they give them up because they don't need them any more, there's something else going on in that 3yo brain! We did move bedtime up an hour or more when we gave up on naps, and bedtime is MUCH less of a hassle now. This was a common theme in some recent threads about 3yo's giving up naps.

Second, if time-outs in his room are not working, I agree to try a different location or means of confinement, or try taking away a toy or privilege. I know that Colin is a few months older than Nate, but it works VERY, VERY well for us to tell him that he will lose a favorite toy if we get to "3". Much better than time-outs ever worked. And one day, we took away a privilege, and he absolutely understood what happened.

Finally, we're not dealing with sibling issues yet, but we do have to deal with DS/pet conflicts every now and then. I'd suggest that you try to give Nate some space when he is playing so he isn't fighting off his sister all the time. Yes, he needs to learn to share and to tolerate her presence (preferably when you can sit with both of them), but he also should be able to play for a period without baby interference. He needs to know that you will stick up for him sometimes, too, and that may mean removing Rose and giving her a "time-out" (not for her benefit, but for Nate's benefit - may just be putting her in the playpen for a minute, or taking her out of the room with you). I had a younger brother, and remember how much I was expected to put up with; it seemed unfair a lot of the time. While Nate is older than Rose, he's still *only* 3yo.

In fact, it sounds like you need a safe place to put Rose when you need to deal with Nate, so you can focus on him. Playpen, superyard, her room with a baby gate, perhaps? And the toy throwing and counter sweeping sounds like bids to get attention from you; does Nate get enough positive one-on-one time with you every day? Perhaps if you rearrange his sleep schedule and let him give up the naps, that would give you 15-20 minutes to interact positively with him while Rose is sleeping and still time to get something else done while he watches a video or something.

3yo kids are tough, I'll admit it! 2yo is tough because of the communication gap, but the 3yo brain is just so much more complex. I'm concerned about how things will go for us when #2 arrives, but we've been working hard to find effective ways to communicate appropriate behavior with Colin (and finally made some progress a week or two ago), hoping that all that won't change in 2 months!! If so, I'll be writing your post!

[muskiesusan]

I think you have gotten a lot of great suggestions, so I will just let you know what I have been doing and you can take it for what it's worth.

Nick started resisting naps about that age and was done with them by 3.5 yo. In hindsight, I would have stopped them sooner as it wasn't worth the frustration for either of us. I have also discovered that he needed the one on one time with me. So, now during his normal nap time, we play something low key like a board game. He has really benefited from this time with me and it has made a huge difference in his behavior, which I have decided was a basically a cry for attention. He is still tired by midafternoon, which eliminates and late afternoon errands as he will fall asleep, and it has taken a few months to adjust to being without a nap, but he now goes to bed at 7, which is nice as it gives me my evenings.

Oh, and Nick is totally OCD about how his bed should be arranged and I never know what he will think of next. I would just let him sleep on his floor and try to figure out the rest. Often I will tell Nick that mommy will do X but he needs to do the rest.

I quit doing time outs a long time ago as they weren't working (wouldn't stay and couldn't keep baby away/occupied while dealing with Nick). When he misbehaves, I tell him if he can't be nice to us, we will play elsewhere and we leave. This stops the behavior and after awhile, he has really gotten the message and rarely is a problem now in this area.

The sharing has been tricky. When Alex was distracted easily, I would tell Nick to offer him another toy to play with. Well, this backfired as Alex soon developed a mind of his own and no longer wants a different toy, so don't do this! I found that Nick is more willing to share most toys when he has some stuff that is his own, so he has a few table activities that I make a big deal about that only he can do and not Alex. Also, for Christmas, I gave Alex some toys I knew Nick wanted/would like to give Alex a stake in Nick's exisiting stuff (trains, Plan City stuff, trucks, etc). This also helped since Alex is "sharing" with him.

I don't really have a good answer on what to do when the older child hurts the younger one. I am usually so upset and have screamed to the point that Nick doesn't come near me for a few minutes (this is the one area where I really lose my temper). It hasn't been much an issue, though, so I think my strategies in other areas has benefited us. Most parenting books are good on theory, but don't give you good suggestions on what to do in the moment. It is hard to deal with a crying baby and discipline at the same time. I am still figuring this out, but I normally tell him he needs to sit by himself while we both calm down (this doesn't always work, but I still try). I often take away toys (put on top of the refrigerator) or privileges, which has been effected.

My biggest struggle now is when Alex is doing something age appropriate like throwing food and Nick copies. He doesn't understand why he gets in trouble, but Alex just gets removed from the situation.

Good luck. I didn't think I would make it through age 3 or having two, but we have lived to see the other side, well some days anyway...

ETA: I totally agree that the kids react to my mood, so if I am stressed, so are they. It's hard because some days I am about to lose my mind, but try to take a break if you can!

Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01
& Alex 04/04

[C99]

Janey,

Thanks for your reply. I feel like the control issue is exactly it (or part of it anyway). Today, Nate made a stink about not wanting to go to our weekly Friday class (which started up today after a 2-week break) or go to the grocery store with me this afternoon -- seemed like a big control issue to me.

We’ve had to come up with some creative ways to give Megan choices so that she feels she is in control.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on some of those ways for me. I was thinking about this today, but just could not come up with anything to get him to think, "OK I will go to class" or "OK I will go to the grocery store" willingly and he cried in the car on the way to the store.

[C99]

Sarah,

Thanks. I think I probably will gate/lock his room. He can already open doorknob covers, so the one that is on there is rather useless. I usually put him down for naps (but it's been such a battle lately that when he says, "no nap," I just cave) and my husband puts him down for the night, but I can hear lots of thumping around and screaming in the lights-out period.

I'll also definitely check out the book.

[C99]

Kelly Ann,

Thanks. Never thought of the PnP idea. I will have to try that. Undoubtedly, Rose will hate it (part of the reason that Nate gets so mad at her is because she's trying to pull up on his train table, bed, etc.), but that is OK every once in awhile.

[C99]

Karen,

Thank you SO much for your post. I remember reading your post about spanking on the bitching post a few months ago, so it helps. It's nice to know that it sounds like things got better for you and your suggestions sound like things that would also work with Nate.

[C99]

Mary,

Thanks for your thoughts as well. I've done timeouts w/ Nate on my lap before and usually it's of the bear hug variety -- he rarely wants to snuggle. As sad as it makes me feel to admit this, I think some of it is that my husband now puts him to bed and gets up with him in the morning, so he views Daddy as his primary comforter. Yesterday, he told me that he was not my boo-bear, that Rose was mine and that he was Daddy's. :(

When you transition between things, what do you do for transitions between activities that involve leaving a friend's house, for example? I had to carry him out to the car kicking and screaming from a friend's house because he didn't want to leave. I gave him several warnings beforehand that we were leaving.

[C99]

Susan,

Thanks for your thoughts -- they are helpful!

[C99]

I will check out the book and finally make it over to GCM. Now I am going to bed to get some sleep!

[Saartje]

Caroline, I can't offer any words of wisdom, because I've never dealt with sibling issues and my kid's not that age yet, but I just wanted to offer you hugs, because I know it's hard. (((Caroline)))