How much of our upbringing can we hold our parents accountable for?

[brittone2]

This is a philosophical question I've been mulling around in my head for a loooong while, and I have lots of different thoughts on this that pull me in a variety of directions. It is long of course (as usual for me) but I'm very interested in hearing a wide variety of perspectives because I bet there are people that have been on both sides of the fence and have really interesting thoughts on this.

My parents weren't perfect people. They screwed up sometimes...sometimes a lot. They spanked, they yelled...they were human. Overall, I think they did a good job with raising me, and a good job raising my 4 brothers. We had a blended family (each of my parents was married before, Dad's first wife passed away and my mom was divorced). Each of my parents had 2 sons, and then had me between them.

In any case, I posted a few weeks ago about some long-standing family issues we've had w/ one of my brothers (now 37) including drug addiction off an on since he was in his late teens, etc. We had a huge family battle with him about 2 years ago and at that time my SIL wrote my parents a letter where she numbered chronologically every event in my brother's life that he feels my parents screwed up on. They didn't do this, they didn't do that, they didn't love him enough, etc. He's upset my dad didn't get him therapy when he was 3 and his mom passed away. He's angry my dad didn't let him go to the funeral. Obviously he's entitled to those thoughts (and he's entitled to feel those feelings for sure), and I can't imagine how hard it must be to lose your mother. I can't even pretend to put myself in his shoes. But he essentially blames my parents for all of his "issues." Yes, they could have gotten him counseling, but life in the very early 70s was quite different I think. I'm not sure child counseling was all that popular (maybe I'm wrong). I think they did the best they could at the time. They did "tough love" with him in his teens during his numerous rehab stays on the advice of numerous counselors. Maybe not the best approach, but it was what they were told to do at the time. They tried their hardest IMO.

In some ways I'd like to heal my relationship with him, but I struggle with what was said to my parents. It hurt them so, so deeply to get that letter. I feel for my brother. He's had a rough road in life, but I struggle with his deep blame of my parents (he hasn't spoken to them, me, or any of my other siblings for 2 years)

I haven't walked a mile in his shoes. I feel for him in some ways, but in others, I struggle with his lack of personal accountability, kwim? There's a substantial age gap between us so we've never been terribly close. I'm sure I was parented differently than he was. I'm sure my parents learned from their mistakes. I wasn't there to witness the way he was raised from the beginning. I do truly feel my parents did their best. I feel they are good people.

So...while how our parenting influences us is certainly important...how much "blame" can we put on our parents for who we are? Abuse is obviously a different situation, but how much should our parents be accountable for? How much of our function and dysfunction can we/should we attribute to how we were raised?

I'd love to hear all sorts of thoughts on this. I'm torn in two directions sometimes with this. My brother feels what he feels, but at the same time, where does it end?

[jayali]

I'll be the first to answer. Very interesting question. I am curious to the responses. Here is mine.

I guess I am a little old fashioned. I feel like my parents did the best they could. My mom always used to say "You kids didn't come with directions. We did the best we could." I believed her.

I feel like we all come with some baggage and being an adult means it is up to us to deal with it. I guess to put it more simply there has to come a time when you stop blaming other people and deal with things yourself. I can totally relate to having a brother who blames everything in his life on someone else. While we didn't have as difficult issues to deal with,as your family, we had our own. I am SURE that my brother, who has been battling dependency issues his whole life, probably blames a lot of them on my parents. But I feel, as an adult, if you recognize these are issues go get help for them now. Being in therapy for years makes me realize that blaming others is just a cop out to doing the hard emotional work.

That's my time on the soap box. Am very curious to see how others respond!

[Pennylane]

Beth,

I think this is a great question! I think so much of what we learn as children carries over to the adult we become. I know I was raised to have nice manners, respect my elders, etc. I am raising my children with a lot of the same beliefs I was taught. But I was also raised by a man who could not be faithful to his wife if his life depended on it! He was a huge hypocrite and has lied to his wife and children for his entire life.

Now, as an adult do I use this as an excuse to be unfaithful to my husband or dishonest with him? No, if anything I think I learned the opposite. I think that ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and the way we choose to live our life.

I'm not talking about exteme cases either(abuse,drugs,alcohol)but just the normal "disfunction" a lot of people experience.

Ann

[holliam]

Oh Beth, I'm sorry this is going on. I have been meaning to ask what happened over the holidays.

I'll admit that my parents weren't great parents, and they still aren't. They are narcisstic and materialistic. I was not wanted at all. I was the last of 5 kids, and there is 8 years between me and the last and 16 between me and the first. I was definitely an "oops", and they always let me know it. Lots of emotional abuse and threats of physical punishment. Totally inconsistent parenting. They're smart people, but they really should have been medicated a while ago.

My parents could have done so many things differently for all of us if only Zoloft was in vogue in the 60s and 70s!. In any case, 5 of us emerged from the same 2 parents, yet we've ended up very different.

My oldest sister is a nutcase. She just always has been. Has always blamed my parents for everything. None of us have any contact with her. I particularly have never liked her at all. We are about as opposite as you can imagine. She is constantly coming in/out of my parents life. She recently emerged appearing as the golden child during my Dad's recent health issues.

My brother is the hugely successful doctor. None of us talk to him much, but he walks on water. My parents NEVER wig out around him. We tell him stories, and he is pretty much in shock.

My two other sisters are the support network of the family. They are really the reason I ended up half as sane as I did! The three of us are close, but they are closer to each other than to me.

Me, I'm a bit of an oddball. I'm successful, but I could have been more so if I didn't care so much about my own family. I am definitely the most outspoken, tell-it-like it is.

It took me a long time to figure out where I belonged in this family, but ya know what? I'm an adult. Yea, there is a lot of stuff I wish my parents had done differently, but I can choose to let it go and move on or let it nag at me. For the most part I've moved on, but occassionally little things just really tick me off. But, my sisters and I are able to recognize it, and we call each other to vent or to warn each other not to call M/D right today/this week because they are on a rampage about *something*.

But, in my case, my parents really are emotionally weird. I'm just lucky I had a lot of siblings so I ended up with at least a couple I liked! ;) Besides, they gave me a solid understanding of the type of parent I NEVER want to be like.

I do love them, regardless!

Holli

[murpheyblue]

My parents raised two children: my brother and I. I think my parents did a wonderful job of raising us though they certainly did many things "wrong" by today's parenting standards or when compared to parenting "ideals." Both my parents worked - a lot. My dad was gone before we got up every day and returned after we were asleep. My mom owned her own business and was always working. We were latchkey kids though we usually had a babysitter come over after school. We both had TVs in our room and watched them a lot. We were spanked when we misbehaved often with a wooden spoon. We were given every thing a child could want in terms of material things (some would call us "spoiled" though I don't believe in the use of that term with respect to material things).

I adore both of my parents and think they did a wonderful job raising us despite not being Ward and June Cleaver. My brother and I have a great relationship with each other and have both gone on to have sold careers and successful marriages and families.

My parents gave us a warm and loving home and the things (education, opportunity) we needed to suceed. Was my mom there to bake cookies with me when I got home? No. If I was disgruntled with my life I'd probably look back on my childhood through different glasses and blame my parents for things I was unhappy with. Heck, if they were home all the time I would probably call them oppressive.

I do think parents and parenting affect their children and I think how probably depends largely on the parents and the child. What bothers one person doesn't bother another. I've never been affected by serious family issues so I'm in no position to judge how one person might feel about such things.

[lisaE]

I also feel that my folks probably did the best they could. Which, since I turned out ok, seems to be good enough. My childhood was very chaotic, though, and I always had to be the "little adult." But this is an interesting question, because I have 3 half-brothers (same mom as me) and they are all about 2 years apart and VASTLY different. Since they are so close in age I feel that they all had similar upbringing. One of my brothers is a total jerk- horrible father, etc. and has always felt like the world owes him something. He's just got a major chip on his shoulder. Another brother is great, great father, drama-free life, etc., and my other one is somewhere in-between. I think parenting does account for some, but overall I think that it's a convenient excuse for those people who just want to be jerks. Plenty of people have horrible childhoods and rise above it, kwim? I think if someone wants to live a life where they are not acountable and don't want to strive to improve, then it's just easy to blame it on a horrible childhood. Pretty much everyone comes from a disfunctional family, what you do with your life, and how you live it, is up to you now.

[annasmom]

What an interesting question. I have to tell you, my dh and I discuss this A LOT. Namely because I come from a really big family and there is a big difference in the life paths my siblings and I have chosen. I think we are probably a case study in birth order.

My parents are awesome. Did they make mistakes, sure. Will I make a ton of mistakes, unfortunately yes. Do I think they sould have intervened a bit more and may have changed the way things played out for some of my siblings, maybe, I am not sure. I really think my parents did everything they could do. I really think there comes a time where a person just has to be held accountable for their actions. It's sad, because I think many people believe that once they have made one big mistake in life there is no going back, when in reality there are so many opportunities to change your life especially if you have support.

I am sorry, I completely didn't respond to your question did I!! Short answer, I think it depends. There are a ton of other factors. My dh came from a less than ideal home situation but turned out really well. He credits some really good friends for supporting him through some tough times and keeping him grounded.

So maybe the answer is somewhere in between.

[ctmom]

This question really hit home today...My 19yo niece just left after a wonderful weekend visit with me. We spent a lot of time laughing and crying and staying up late talking like girls do. I have such a special bond with her even though I'm 18 years older than her. Unfortunately she, and my sister, have been emotionally abused by my bil for years. From the outside they look like the perfect family, but behind closed doors it is a different story. I really don't know why my sister has stayed with my bil for so long, they have been married for 26 years, and frankly I'm sick and tired of trying to get her to leave. I also feel that since my sister allows this abuse to go on I'm somewhat responsible to teach my niece it isn't ok to be treated the way she is. My bil treats his family the way he was raised and really thinks there is nothing wrong with screaming at them and putting them down constantly. My niece is a smart girl and loves coming to visit me because, she tells me, she likes to see there are "normal families" out there and it makes her feel good that the way she was raised isn't the way everybody lives. She tells me it gives her hope that she will someday be able to leave her father and find happiness. I just kept repeating to her over and over again this weekend to learn by his mistakes and not to be a victim. I really believe you cannot be a happy, healthy adult if you fall victim to your upbringing. I don't know anyone who was raised in a perfect family, but the happiest people I know overcame their imperfect childhood and/or early adulthood and are better for it today. I think it is easy to blame someone else for your problems but there comes a time in everyone lives when you have to be accountable for your own actions...I hope this makes sense, dd is waking up from her nap and I have to go!

Mary

[crayonblue]

"So...while how our parenting influences us is certainly important...how much "blame" can we put on our parents for who we are?"

Apart from abuse, I'm not sure. My brothers and I were raised in a home where we knew we were loved and taken care of. The one thing we all came out with was low self-esteems though. My parents both struggle with self-esteem issues and I don't think they knew how to build up a child's self-image and self-esteem. I probably am the most "functional" of the 4 kids and I think that is because I had a lot in common with both my mom and dad. My mom loved to read and so did I so we spent a lot of time reading together, talking about books, etc. My dad liked sports and I played sports, so sports really bonded us. I remember spending hours in the backyard pitching to my dad. I felt important. My brothers, on the other hand, didn't really like the things my parents were interested in and my parents didn't make the effort to get "into" the stuff they liked. All 3 of them really suffer from feelings of failure and lack of motivation. All 3 have the most amazing talents and interests and I think they would be VERY different today if they had felt "important" as children.

The one area I really struggle in is feeling "pretty." DH says that no matter how many times he tells me, I just don't believe him. I try to believe him! But, I think that for years I didn't feel pretty and that is so deeply ingrained. My mom is more likely to make a negative comment on how I look than a positive one. I don't think she means to be negative, she's just a little too brutally honest! I know that Lauren watches me and how I view myself will affect her so I am very much working on a positive self-image for myself.

My DH has the most amazing family. All 4 kids (but particularly the boys) are bursting with confidence and self-esteem. They all think they can do anything. My MIL is the master at building people up. She asks a million questions and acts interested in every part of my life (not nosey or intruding, just interested). When DH was a kid and got into baseball cards, so did my MIL. In fact, this year for Christmas, she gave DH a box of cards! She knew who was on his favorite teams. She really gave her kids a great gift in that she was interested in their lives. She talks about how her kids are her greatest legacy. She talks about her 8 kids (4 by birth and 4 who married her children). Sure, my MIL and FIL messed up and made mistakes but I have heard their children thank them for being the parents they were. Somehow they came out quite "functional" and I think a lot of that is because of the confidence they were given.

Sorry if this is major rambling. I've thought about this a lot. One of my biggest goals is to raise Lauren and future kids in such a way that they feel loved, secure and important.

Back to your original question, I do think we are products of how our parents raised us and our parents strengths and weaknesses. But, as adults, we can get past the dysfunction in our childhoods! Some have rougher starts and rougher material to work with. Like you said, I haven't walked in anyone's shoes except my own.

[dogmom]

I think you can't really tell what a person's relationship is with their parents, even if you are the sibling. First off, a few years can make a big difference in parenting styles. Secondly, different kids need different things and that's not really their fault. So one kind of parenting might work OK for one kid and be a disaster with the next. As far as blame, I don't think it's a blame thing so much as accepting/acknowledging what influence our upbringing has on us. I've seen grown adults still whining about things that I think are ridiculous. I've also had friends who are in complete denial about the fact their parents were basically abusive.

I also accept the fact that for people to get well/healthy they may need to break off from their family/parents for a period of time. Sometimes the emotional ties the a dysfunctional family can be so strong the only way to do so is to really go overboard with the blame. I have a friend who is turning 30 who I practically beg a regular basis to break the ties with her sisters since all they do is cause her pain and help her continue with a self-destructive cycle she is in despite all the love and support her DH gives her.

I think the problem comes that to talk about hurtful things makes people feel defensive and identify it as "blaming" which isn't necessarily the point. If someone is suffering, they are suffering. I don't think accountability should be the primary issue, lessening the suffering should be.

Jeanne
Mom to Harvey
1/16/03

[kristy]

From what I've seen, when people are at loose ends and unhappy with their lives they often tend to blame other people - parents are very easy targets. Go ahead and love your brother but do expect him to be accountable for his own life. He is plenty old enough to be responsible for who he is, where he is going and what he is getting out of life. If he needs help conquering an addiction, lend support and research treatment options. If he needs to be on antidepressants, help him find a doctor. Help him help himself but don't buy into this blame game. And please don't allow him to tarnish your own relationship with your parents.

[ribbit1019]

Very good question Beth! I think that my parents did the best they could with my sister and I. I model much of my parenting after my mom. My dad wasn't really there when I was at home, he worked third shift and I hardly saw him. He is much closer to my sister (3 yrs younger) because he went to first shift just as I left for college. I wish I could change our relationship, it has been better since I had DD. Both my parents are wonderful people, though I don't think it would hurt for my mom to be on little Zoloft.

I think at some point an adult needs to accept their reality and that the decisions that they make for themselves are their own. It is hard to do, especially if you have made rough decisions, as your brother has. But our parents can only point us in the right direction, if we choose another road that is on us as *functioning* adults. Realizing of course that there are adults that are not fully functioning.

Christy
Maddy born 6/09/04
http://lilypie.com/baby2/040609/3/4/0/-5/.png

Little Man due 3/02/06
http://bd.lilypie.com/cKLom4/.png
Co-Owner Ribbit Baby

"I did then what I knew how to do. When you know better, you do better." ~ Maya Angelou

[brittone2]

My brother *refuses* to go to counseling. He doesn't "believe" in psychologists. He did get counseling as a teen and did several rehab stays at that time (where he often relapsed immediately after rehab or during rehab), but to the best of my knowledge hasn't had any since. When he relapsed with his addiction 2 years ago, he was in total denial. My SIL basically told him he needed to tell my parents and he wouldn't, so they brought it up to him, and that started the whole sequence of events. He said at the time that he "knows what he has to do" to get over his addiction, therefore he doesn't need counseling. That's where I really struggle...if he was upset w/ my parents but willing to work on things within himself to heal, I could be more sympathetic.

Interestingly, with all of the issues his daughter has been through (I posted about this a few weeks ago and deleted most of the details) he refused to get her counseling. Now, after she threatened suicide at 11 years of age, he has decided she should see a counselor but it had to be a male counselor otherwise she would "manipulate" the counselor (his words). He admits to not having "warm and fuzzy" feelings toward his dd (said this when she was barely 8 years old) yet doesn't think he needs help with this issue. It goes on and on. So he's angry he didn't get counseling when he was 3 but hasn't gotten my niece much needed help for many years.

So...he refuses all help. He "can do it himself." Lots of denial. He tries to play it off like he can manage life just fine w/ his addiction...he still goes to work, etc. (this is a hard core drug fwiw) I don't know what the present state is with him addiction-wise, but that's the personality I'm dealing w/ here. He won't speak with me or my parents, but my SIL has re-established some contact w/ my parents and I only through letters and is now "allowing" phone calls/letters with my nieces.

I'm really appreciative of all of the responses. I definitely think my parents may have contributed to some of his issues, but I also think that at 37 he could be a wee bit more accountable, kwim? THey had an impact, but he has free will to an extent too. Most of me feels he is just off the deep end, but part of me feels very sorry for some of the experiences he's had in life. I've considered writing him and just saying that. That I'm sorry he has been through what he's been through. Maybe he needs that acknowledged? (FWIW my parents did respond w/ a letter like that when they got the letter from my SIL). I feel like maybe I should do that...but at the same time, most of me wants to clobber him over the head after what has been going on w/ my niece :(

Anyway, if anyone else would like to share, I really, really appreciate it. Getting a range of perspectives has been helpful.

[bostonsmama]

Hey Beth, I'm sorry this is troubling you right now. Family issues (especially sibling issues) can be so heart-wrenching b/c our allegiances are torn between our parents and our siblings.

But I wanted to respond to Lana's post b/c she so eloquently said how I feel and there are remarkable similarities between her feelings & upbringing and mine (well, at least the part about connecting with her parents' likes and dislikes).

My parents were about as screwed up on paper as they come. My father was a recovering alcoholic who was occassionally verbally abusive to my mother and an OCD ultra-control freak, and my mother was narcissistic and career-centered (with a neglectful, I mean laisez-faire parenting approach). But in all honesty I didn't know any better, and both of my parents heaped praise and affection on us, making sure we felt loved and appreciated...when they were around.
My older brother & I were didn't really know any better until my little brother came along and they started to treat us all better (as my parents cooperatively mellowed out, but by then it was too late and they wound up divorcing when I was 11). I think that's when the resentment set in. My older brother chose to "blame" my father, and I chose to "blame" my mother. From that point on my older brother and I never really got along. My little brother never knew any of that early disfunction, and since no one really paid any attention to how he was affected by the divorce, he actually turned out the worst. Amazingly, my older brother and I got through lots of hard life events that were to come, and we even continued to thrive socially, educationally (we both have college degrees), and emotionally. My little brother failed multiple grades in HS, actually never got his diploma (but is now doing OK in college, so go figure), picked up a disease or two, got some girl pregnant at 16 (even though he has a great relationship with both parents). So, sometimes I have no idea *WHY* some kids turn out different with the same parents except that we're born with different personalities and respond to the same parenting with different attitudes and assumptions.

I completely understand how hurt you are for your parents. I love my father to pieces. We are the closest thing two people can be without being married...if that doesn't sound too weird. There's not a day that goes by that we don't spend 30 minutes or more on the phone. We like to do the same things, though: shopping, fine china and crystal, celebrity gossip, our faith, politics (no, he's not gay), and that really bonded us while I was growing up. My brothers (since they largely sided with my mom...and were hence left abandonned by her work/career choices) were into fantasy role-playing games, video games, and TV...which my dad hated with every fiber of his being. So, I became my dad's favorite child (of sorts) b/c I liked to spend time with him and do the things he liked to do. Now, my dad can come to my house and happily stay for a month, whereas my older brother would go nuts having to do more than dinner for one day a week. It's only been in recent months that he's done some soul-searching and realized that not everything that's been bad in his life is a result of his crappy relationship with his dad. But when he criticizes my dad, I take it personally, too...and it really makes me not like him. And I also think now that's he's happier as a person and things are going well for him (and he's slowly learning to forgive the past--something I accomplished after years of private therapy relating to issues w/ my mother), he doesn't have so much to be angry about, and is slowly mending his relationship w/ my dad. So, I can't say how it'll all play out, but I think we'll all be okay in the end. Some amazing differences have played out over the years, and while we're not all "there" yet (as in 100% content & copacetic with our parents' choices), we're working on it. I think when your brother breaks past his addiction and things start to go well for him, then with therapy, intervention, or a lightbulb moment (rare, I know), he might come to realize that not everything in life is your parents' fault. Trust me, I didn't come up with the idea to forgive my mother and accept her for who she is...that was my therapist talking...and it took lots of hard work to get where I am today...but it was so worth it, and I'm glad my own siblings and mother didn't give up on me before I finished working out my issues...and I'm sure my brother is glad we're not giving up on him working out the issues with my dad.

Well, I'm sure I've rambled a bit myself and revealed way TMI stuff about my past, but I just wanted to let you know that I often ponder the same question...and it is on my more optimistic days (like today) that I see the forrest through the trees.

Hugs,

Larissa

Larissa
***Cheers! Here's to better luck in 2006!***

"Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them."
-James Baldwin

[cmdunn1972]

Beth, I haven't read all the other responses, but I'm happy to give my initial feedback.

No one's parents were perfect. My parents yelled and spanked also, but we didn't turn out to be drug addicts. He's 37 and still blaming your parents for his drug addiction? While he may have endured some hardship (who hasn't), at some point your brother made the choice put illegal substances into his own body on his own. Your parents likely didn't agree with your brother's decision to take drugs, so they shouldn't be held accountable for that. Also, at 37, he can get his own counseling. No one's stopping him from getting help (and sticking with the program) but himself.

Here's another observation. It's hard to judge your brother's feelings when you get them from your SIL and not from him directly. It'd be one thing if you got it from him, but imo, your SIL crossed a line when she decided to speak for your brother to your parents. It's presumptuous and inappropriate for her to behave that way, and it certainly doesn't make your parents want to reach out to their DIL. If your brother is feeling any ill will towards your parents, then he needs to be a man and bring it to them directly on his own. If he has trouble doing that to the point where he's making his wife do the legwork, then the true issue is the one you alluded to in your OP: personal accountability (or lack thereof).

Life is full of challenges. The measure of a person isn't the number of challenges one faces in life, but how one handles them.

[aliceinwonderland]

My answer: "not too much", unfortunately. At some point we have to take responsibility for who we are and what we are becoming. ANd I say this as product of pretty severe physical/emotional abuse. Things are just complex, it's not black and white, because the same parents that have made me the person with the lowest self esteem on the planet (usually does not show:)) also made me curious, gave me lot of books to read, provided as best they could, etc. And they were part of their circumstances too, they raised children under severe stress. I actually told them recently(in the context of the propriety of judging other people's reproductive choices) that to have three children so close apart(18 months or so) like they did when they did, was nothing short of idiotic...

The timing of your question is funny for me, because we were out at dinner last night and all three of us (I have 2 sisters) were laughing, making fun of our crazy and odd and well, horrible our upbringing was in so many ways, and my parents were right there, but we were laughing about it. I am sure they had a bit of trouble going to sleep last night...But I have told my parents what I mean to say, and no need to bring it all up again...Especially since they're exceptional grandparents. I do not need to cause more pain, IYKWIM

[hautemama15]

wow, i feel for you. that said, let me tell you about my family. my mom and dad were very young when they had me. my mom was 17, my dad 21. it was 1969 and my parents admittedly did drugs and my dad was an alcoholic. if it weren't for my grandparents who knows what could have happened to me. don't get me wrong, my mom wasn't a crack whore living on the streets. it was mostly pot and then as i got older, prescription drugs. my dad did everything he could get his hands on. they split, got back together, split again and divorced, got back together and remarried and were both clean finally when I was about 10. When I was 12, they had my brother. within 2 years my dad was on cocaine again, drinking and had been having an affair and left my mom. he basically abandoned us, never paid child support and never spent any time with us at all. my mom had to go back to work and my brother did not handle it well. He was only 3 and was shoved into day care all day long 5 days a week. he did not adjust well. two years later, my mom remarried and the guy treated my brother like crap. called him all sorts of names, belittling him, telling him he was no good, etc.. He was only about 5-6 years old. My brother acted out in school from day one. he never "fit in" and kids teased him all the time. Especially when he started to gain weight. Fast forward a few years, I am doing fine, married, have 2 kids, my brother starts drinking at age 18 and its all downhill from there. My mom did finally get rid of the stupid jerk of a husband (who also was an alcoholic and drug abuser), but it was too late. The damage had been done. By this time, my dad was on the right track, had gone to school to get his degree in social work and was trying to spend time with my brother. My brother has been in treatment now for 4 years. He has been to detox a zillion times, residential rehab now 4 times, halfway houses 3 times, jail 3 times, and he is 24 years old.

I have seen alot in my life. I have seen my dad beat the crap out of my mom. I have been scared for my life a few times myself from my dad and my step dad. I finally went to live with my grandma when I was 16 and got out of it, but I will always have it with me. I don't "blame" my parents for anything, but they certainly contributed to alot of the problems I had within my own marriage(my first husband).

As for my brother, I do blame it somewhat on my mom because she was too weak to get rid of that jerk and stand up for her son at the time. Most of all, I blame the stepdad. He is less than human for what he did and said to my brother. I can't even begin to tell you the horrible things he said to him growing up. It DOES break a person down.

Ultimately we all make choices, but our choices are driven by our upbringing and our surroundings and the people in our lives and the way we react to them. I made better choices than my brother. I chose not to drink or try drugs. My downfall was the type of man I chose to marry. My brother took another path. Drowning all his insecurities mand problems in alcohol and drugs to get away from the pain. He saw my mom do it, he saw my stepdad do it too.So, he thinks thats the way to go. He also is so insecure he thinks the only was to "fit in" in social situations is to drink. I truly believe this comes from years of put downs and belittling he got from my stepdad.

I also think in some cases, there is a genetic link between alcoholism in families. It "runs in my family". Addiction runs in my family. It just skipped me and my grandmother. My grandfather was an alcoholic, my uncle, my dad, my mom with drugs mostly. Irecently went to a family counseling session with my mom and brother at his newest rehab. The counselor could tell I didn't want to be there. I was honest, I told him he was right. I was TIRED of having to deal with all of it. Through my entire life someone close to me has had this kind of problem and I was stuck in the middle of it yet again. He said I had every right to feel that way. For 32 years that I can remember I have had to deal with this and I didn't think it was fair.

I, like you, have a substantial age gap between my brother and me. 12 years. Its a lifetime. We have never been close, but he is my brother and I love him and I don't want to see him kill himself. BUT, I will not let it take over my life. I am close with my mom again even though she has enabled him so much up until the last few months. I know she learned from all this and is a good person. BUT, ultimately, it is my brother who needs to be accountable. And he is for the most part. He knows he is the one who chose this. But he also needs to find out why he chose this and what he can do differently so he doesn't keep making the same mistakes. Thats what your brother needs too. As long as he blames others he will never be any different. The blame is not on everyone else, it is on himself and thats just the way it is. The reasons behind his choices may be things your parents did or didn;t do, but they cannot be held completely responsible for his decisions.

I wish you the best of luck with this. I have been there. Am still there, and its not easy. Hang in there.

[Moneypenny]

Well, this is tough because it goes to the nature vs. nuture debate, and of course (well, I believe it's an "of course"), both our inborn personality and our upbringing influence who we are as adults. My basic viewpoint, though, is biological. Humans have the capability to overcome difficulty. It's our survival skill and I believe it's an instinct hardwired into our brain to find tools to deal with what happens in our life, be it a tough physical environment, a tough emotional environment, or what have you. Some people need more help than others to find those tools, but I think it's part of the human condition, if you will, to have to figure out how to deal with stuff.

I'm sorry you're going through this. My brother and I have totally different perceptions of our childhood although we both agree that we were raised by loving and competent parents. I just don't see what my brother sees, and he doesn't get how I don't see it!

Susan
mama to my cutie pie, Avery
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]
17 months and counting!

[kijip]

Not too much in serious ways. Parents don't excuse our behavior IMO but they can serve to explain some of it. The explaination can lie in both emulating or running away from patterns that are learned.

My parents were pretty bad parents for a myriad of reasons but I turned out ok despite many reasons to cocoon. My parents were so bad at interacting with my younger brother that from about age 16 he lived with me (I had moved into my first apartment at 17). I finished high school, have done well in college all while first caring for my younger sibling emotionally and finacially and later being married and caring for my own family. I actually think I am better at some things than them as a reaction to them so therein lies the explaination part. They were terrible money managers, I learned to save. They were absurbly bad/disgusting housekeepers, I learned to stay tidy out of distaste for how they lived. They set no limits with their children, I learned to set limits first as a surrogate parent for my brother and now with Toby the Tot.

Taking up Js case, I do believe that he learned a lot a bad patterns from his parents. And I hold his parents responsible for behaving in such a fashion (abuse, locking him in closet abuse). I don't think they did the best that they could, they acted with willful disrespect for what they were teaching their son, they blamed him for their abuse of him ("he was always too smart, too angry"). But none of his parents' abuse serves to exonerate his own abusive behavior as an adult. He knows that blaming them renders him no benefit. He is certainly the most functional between him and his 1 sibling. His brother excuses his dad's behavior and exaggerates his mother's behavior and generally blames his mom and circumstance be it affirmative action, J, his grandparents, the school district for everything that goes wrong in his life. He did not support himself till he was nearly 30 years old then he met a woman online from Norway and has moved there after marrying her. Now she supports him and he seems to do little but read and check out websites and email. J on the other hand, works for a living, has a decent education, a slew of friends, has a host of cultivated talents and is a remarkably good parent. He is seeing a therapist but not as a blame game sort of deal, as a way to try to end the pattern he grew up with.

My parents and I have mended the fences but to this day, I see the ways that they were bad parents and I have to admit that my relationship with each of them is not very much parent/child but something else entirely.

Now on a lighter note. I do think that who our parents are has a deep affect on our own behaviors. This was made very clear to me when I arrived home from grocery shopping while living in my first apartment and I found a bunch of candy bars in my bag. At the time I did not eat candy hardly at all. I checked my sales slip and I had indeed paid for them. I laughed but to this day I have no recollection of deciding to purchase those candy bars or of picking them out. None. My mother is quite large (well over 300 pounds right now) and she eats candy like there is no tomorrow. Always has. I can remember no time in my life where she has gone shopping, and not bought a minimum of 3 candy bars, sometimes as many as 10. I mimicked her behavior without even realizing it! How's that for strange? Blaming her would be wrong (for example if I became 300 pounds like her, I would be responsible, not her) but I know that I did not learn that in a vaccum! FWIW, I don't hink I ate those candy bars.

[Vajrastorm]

I love what you wrote.

[JulieL]

I read a lot of these, and agree with a lot of the posts:

For me here's my story my mother abandoned me and my father when I was a baby, she has been mostly out of my life, and when in my life lies to me to uncontrolably. She has scarred all 6 of her kids that she has birthed by different men, and abandoned. For me I don't see it as an excuse to bale on my family and it is no excuse for bad behavior on my part. That's it in a nutshell, all 6 kids hurt and are coping in various ways (or not coping) but really the excuse would be to use this for our own bad decisions. We may all have issues to deal with, for me it's abandonment and will be till the day I die, but I don't use this to hurt others by selfish decisions, nor should I.

[brittone2]

"Parents don't excuse our
behavior IMO but they can serve to explain some of it. "

Katie, I love what you said. My parents may have contributed to his dysfunction, but at the same time, that doesn't mean it falls entirely on their shoulders.

[brittone2]

Jeanne-thanks for that perspective. I agree with you that I don't think I fully understand his relationship w/ my parents. Because of the age difference between us and the fact that obviously i haven't lived his life, I can't grasp it all completely.

"Blame" was a bad choice of words in some ways, but that's what he did IMO. If he had written a letter (himself, not through SIL) and mentioned the long list of infractions by my parents, I'd be more understanding, even if he was angry in his tone. I think that's totally understandable and if that helps him heal, great. But he did this through my SIL rather than doing it himself (but he knew she was writing this and he obviously provided all of the details), and it was seriously designed to do nothing but inflict pain. I mean, SIL wrote that my brother considers himself thankful to my mom for the fact that she cooked and cleaned for him, and did his wash, and nothing else.

I also could understand needing time/space to work things out and distancing himself from family during that time, but he isn't seeking professional counseling or anything like that. I'm hoping somewhere in his brain he's trying to heal, but judging by how he's handled things w/ my niece, he's so far over the edge of reason that I can't comprehend it.

I do think he's suffered inside for a long time. I'm sure part of that is definitely attributable to the loss of his biological mom at such a tender age. I'm sure that he had some childhood experiences that weren't stellar. My heart genuinely goes out to him over those things, and that's where I'm conflicted. Seeing what he's doing to his family and what he's done psychologically/emotionally to my niece rips me apart though and it makes me so angry.

I don't even know what I'm trying to say, except that I see your point about blame vs. talking about hurtful things. I think he has every right to hold my parents accountable for what they did and didn't do, but time and time again it seems like he has NO concept that any of his issues are a result of his free will. I guess there's just no balance, kwim? Even in the case of my niece (brother/SIL are having lots of conflicts w/ her), everything she does wrong in his eyes is 100% attributable to the genetics contributed by her wacko biological mother (who is not my SIL). He and my SIL have deeply emotionally/psychologically impacted my niece in so many ways, and he's admitted to not feeling warm and fuzzy toward his own then 8 year old daughter (who he has had 100 percent custody of since she was 18 months old). But *none* of the problems there are his fault at all in his eyes. Everything is about how she's basically genetically doomed to turn out like her bio mom. It's the same theme over and over with him. He sees no need to get help for feeling that way toward his own daughter...that's crazy, kwim?

I just wish I knew if he was at least trying to work through things or if he's truly happy to live in his world where my parents are 100 percent at fault.

[brittone2]

I also want to thank you all for sharing such personal stories...I know it isn't easy to do that. I appreciate it a great deal, and getting such varied perspectives is really helpful.

I also am so sorry that so many women here had painful or difficult childhoods. It is awesome to see how many of you pulled through difficult circumstances to be the wonderful women that you are :)

[kath68]

I am sorry I have only had time to skim the responses here, which I think are very interesting. I wanted to add something to the discussion that I remember learning in my child development grad school days. When studying kids that grow up in difficult circumstances like poverty and abuse, researchers use a concept they call "resiliency". How is it that some kids come out of really bad situations ok, and others are damaged for life? Is there something inside them that makes the difference, or is it luck? Or something else. Researchers (and forgive me for being vague here, it has been a long time since I have looked at this issue, and someone might have more up to date info on this) have found that for many "resilient" kids -- those who seem to grow up to thrive despite their bad childhood environments -- there seem to be some common factors. For example, they seek out role models outside their families, and find a way to spend time with them. They have hobbies and goals that keep them focused on their future. For some, it is religion that is their way to keep on track. Or they seek out a place to go during the day that keeps them away from the detrimental stuff. Think of the inner city kid who loves art, for example, finds a teacher that inspires him, stays after school with that teacher, applies for colleges under the wing of that teacher, and then becomes a success story.

So -- this "resiliency" concept helps me grapple this issue -- why some kids, even in the same family, are affected more by negative parental influence than others. Some kids have personalities that help them protect themselves and thrive despite the bad environment. Some kids have personalities that make it more difficult to escape the bad environment. Why? who knows. My *guess* is, that the latter group (non-resilient kids) as adults would probably find more reason to blame their parents for the problems they have. The "resilient" ones are probably more able to move on and not blame parents. Huge overgeneralization, I know, but that's my guess.

That is not to say that a really bad environment couldn't destroy a resilient kid, too. Nor that a non-resilient kid is helpless to escape a bad environment. Or that the parents don't have an obligation to make the environment better. It's just that people differ in how they approach adversity, even as kids, and that has to affect people's world view as adults, too.

Does that make sense?

[kristy]

Right now your brother is in total denial. Like lots of addicts he is looking for any excuse in the book to justify is addiction. I would not go there with him. Make sure he knows that you love him. You are there for him. You will support him when he wants to get serious about getting help. (I used to be engaged to an addict. They are not the easiest people to reach. Realize this may take a while. It may never happen.)

Have you considered attending Al Anon meetings? Would you consider attending one with your SIL? I have never been to a meeting myself but I've heard they are really good. Maybe they can give you ideas as to how to help your niece.

I wish I could be of more help. ((Hugs))

Kristy

[brittone2]

Thanks for the advice. He's been in denial all of his life I believe. He was clean for 10 years (according to him) but w/ the relapse 2 years ago it started all over again.

My SIL called my mom every day about what was going on (he was selling possessions like his chain saw, etc to coworkers to pay for his habit), saying she was NOT going to stay if things continued, giving my mom the play by play. They came up for a holiday, and that's when she told him he should tell my parents, and he wouldn't , so they brought it up. She continues to stay in touch with my mom, making 2-3 hour phone calls telling her what is going on. A few months later they asked me to take their oldest DD (I was 8 months pregnant and not expecting this) and I asked them if we could wait a few months and do it that summer (for numerous reasons, which I now regret). My parents basically were/are very concerned with how they treat their oldest DD and after they asked me to "take" her (at 8 years old, not 16)talked w/ them and told them they need counseling, as did I. That's what really made things hit the fan.
A few weeks later the 20 page letter arrives to my parents (from her) about how horrible my parents are (she was in agreement with this...it wasn't just her writing for him, kwim? ). It was like she did a total 180. I don't now what was said to make that happen but she totally turned against my parents. So while she has written my parents and I for the first time in 2 years, she won't talk to us at all by phone and it is pretty much for her daughters' sake from what I can tell. She lives about 4 hours away but I don't think she'd ever want to go anywhere w/ me at this point. They are in denial about how they treat their DD as well.
My email to SIL was short but nice (since hers was the same) and I thanked her for letting us write to my nieces. I ended it by saying that although my brother is obviously not ready to talk, to please let him know we think of him every day, love him, and wish him the best.
I'm not sure if he'll ever get out of denial. He seems to think this is all totally normal...cocaine habit, go to work, and ship your young daughter off to whoever will take her (they sent her to live w/ her biomom in very very unsafe circumstances repeatedly over the past two years), but none of it means you need counseling or help. I have no idea if he's using now (SIL sent a video of the girls and he had gained some weight back so hopefully not) but the denial in other areas just continues.

I'm so sorry that you experienced all of this first hand yourself. Addiction is so painful for all involved. I've never been to Al Anon but my parents did that when my brother was a teen. My dad had a lot of denial issues, which is part of the issue between my brother and mom...she basically was the one that put the pieces together and figured out what was going on in his teens while my dad didn't want to believe it. I think my brother deeply resents my mom for that. In any case, I keep thinking I may need counseling on this eventually to make some sense of it.

I feel like I don't even know who my brother is at this point...

Thanks for listening to my senseless rambling.

[jerseygirl07067]

I am sorry you and your family are going through all of that. Hugs to your family.

I had some dysfunction in my family. My dad is a compulsive gambler, and my mom was raised by a very verbally abusive mother. So throughout my life, my mom was always lifting herself up, and putting us down in a subtle way, since she had no self esteem herself. In addition, she was the primary disciplinarian and while I felt she was strict, our feelings were NEVER accepted or recognized. I always heard, "I'm sorry you feel that way, yada yada" when what she should have said was, "I'm sorry" if she was ever wrong. To this day I hate that expression.

I do know that some of this has affected me, and my brother too, but the key IMO is recognizing my issues and trying to work on them. At this point in my life, blaming her does me no good. I actually confronted her about many of these things and she had very little remorse or feeling that she did anything wrong. I'm realizing now that she did the best job based on her OWN circumstances and issues. Unfortunately she is very closed in about many of her own emotions, and has no idea that she has her own issues, but that is something I must accept and move on from.

I do think we all have our own "dysfunctions" and yes, some of them may be from our parents, some may not. I think that to realize that we cannot change what was done in the past, only learn from it, and move on and grow from it, has been very liberating for me. Anger is a terrible emotion to harbor.

Marcy

[mamamayi]

I think becoming a parent myself really helped me understand a lot of the things that my parents did or didn't do. It was a lot harder to be a parent than I thought it would be. I didn't always do things the way I thought I would. When I found myself doing the same "bad" things that my parents did, it gave me a little bit more understanding for them, though I don't blame them or condone the behavior.

The more people I meet, the more I realize that practically EVERYONE has some sort of baggage from childhood. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mom was very negative, though they both were good parents I think. There was as much good as there was bad. We moved a lot, I changed schools a lot, my parents divorced and remarried, my custody changed, and I found it hard to have close friends because we never stayed anywhere long enough.

I personally don't think we can blame our parents for the way we are once we "grow up." There comes a time in your life when you have to pull yourself up and take responsibility. When a person is unable to do this, I think at that time therapy becomes your own responsibility. You may not have gotten what you needed as a child, but as an adult you have the responsibility to make it happen for yourself.

It is hard to be a good parent. I would hate to think that my kids would never forgive me and would always hold me responsible for every bad thing in their life. A letter like that would be crushing, and I really feel for your parents and for you and for your family.

[Judegirl]

"I feel for him in some ways, but in others, I struggle with his lack of personal accountability, kwim?"

Yes. This makes perfect sense. I'm sorry you are feeling so much turmoil over this, and I understand. I think my mother was a much better parent to me than to my brother, unwittingly, but there it is. Nonetheless, my brother is an adult and we do what we can do with the cards that we were dealt.

I, as a sociologist, used to believe that adults were created almost entirely by social forces. Then I had a baby who was awake in the hospital nursery while all the other newborns were asleep, looking around the room peacefully while they were crying, and who looked to everyone like a perfectly normal three-month old - when we brought her home after 4 days. No, we can't blame *everything* on the upbringing. :)

Here's my position: we can blame - and credit - a lot on our parents. But once we place that blame, it becomes our responsibilty to right the wrongs, to correct the problems, to become who we want to be regardless of who they tried to create, tried not to create, or with whom they ended up. If we can see the issues we don't like in our lives and ourselves so clearly that we can see where they come from, then we can take the steps to resolve and change them. At that point it is neither productive nor logical to blame anyone else.

I am sorry for all that you are going through. These are difficult issues. But you and your brother are different for many more reasons than that your parents were different people with different children while you were both growing up. And no one other than your brother - not your parents, not his wife, and certainly not you - can ultimately be responsbile for the man he chooses to be today.

Hang in there, chica. *hugs*

Jude

[brittone2]

Jude, that was beautifully written. Thank you.

[kristy]

Wow. I am so sorry. Your brother and SIL sure are the masters of guilt trips. I feel very, very sad for your niece.

At the same time, you have an innocent young child in your home. It would not have been wise to "take" in your niece - no matter how much you love her. You did the right thing by your own child - don't ever feel guilty about that!

I really don't think you will ever make sense out of this. Minds like your brother and SIL are just foreign territory.

[brittone2]

Thanks for the support :) I appreciate it. Yep, they are beyond my comprehension.

FWIW, I don't think my niece is a risk in any way. At the time she was 8 and a very very good kid...they just overmagnify everything she does and frame it as horrible, essentially. But at the time, I was very very pg w/ my first child, worried about how I'd keep him alive (let alone an 8 year old that I'd have to get set up for school, to the bus stop, etc.), we had the financial drop of losing my income since I was a new SAHM, and I also wanted to get some things into place (have a counselor lined up, etc.) . I asked to wait a few months to have her come stay with us and suggested my brother/SIL get some counseling in the meantime to figure out why they admittedly didn't have "warm and fuzzy" feelings toward my niece so that long-term there would be some progress, rather than putting a band-aid on the problem by sending her to us. ( I am 98 percent sure they would have never visited as it was several states away from their house, and I didn't want to create even more problems by having her go through that separation from them). That is what started the entire series of events...they decided they hated me after that :( Their treatment of her has gotten progressively worse since then and I wish every day I had taken her out of that situation when I had the chance. I am hoping w/ all my heart we'll eventually get her out of there :(

It is hard to not beat myself up. DH and I regret the decision daily, but I had no idea as a first time mom how to juggle all of those changes at once. I was just hoping to buy myself a few months but things didn't go as planned :(

[nov04]

My parents screwed up huge raising my 2 sisters and I. I feel like I bore the brunt of their mistakes making it much easier for my 2 sisters to turn into the successes they've become (eta: I became the 3rd parent to try and make up for things). I'm still working on my education and career and know I'll get there someday.

It certainly wouldn't excuse me turning into them but it makes a huge challenge and struggle sometimes to try and be the mother I want to be to dd. I think I'm doing a darn good job but it isn't easy. I'll know I've accomplished what I wanted if dd never has the same inner voice I do.

[kristy]

I don't think your niece is the risk. I think your brother and SIL are the risk. There is no way to take your niece in without taking your brother and SIL "in." Its like trying to stop a run away train with your hands. You can't do it.

I had to stand by and "let" my brother's former wife take away my niece and nephew (My brother had a brain injury). As an aunt I had no real rights. Those kids are strangers to me. I hope they are o.k.

Until you have an open/honest relationship with either your brother or SIL you are way better off staying at a distance. Let them come to you...

[Elena]

Hi Beth,

I thought of you when I read this article in the New York Times. You might find it interesting and, hopefully, helpful.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/health/psychology/14psyc.html?incamp=article_popular_4

[brittone2]

Thanks Elena! That was really interesting! I appreciate you remembering and thinking of me :)

On a really weird note, I know the professor cited in that article!!! I went to school at the same (smallish) university that he teaches at...how weird of a coincidence is that??

On a not so bright note, as an update, my SIL sent a letter to my parents a week or two ago noting that they plan to have my niece spend the summer with her biological mother again. My worst nightmare. My parents wrote back a note, and mentioned in it that they don't think that's a good idea. THey haven't heard from SIL since then (they didn't feel like they could *not* say something, and they have no idea that I've considered calling CPS). I wouldn't be surprised if my SIL stopped the little communication I have with her as a result (she groups me in with my parents since I'm close to them). They said in the letter biomom is now in a 3BR house, as if that makes any difference considering this woman's history. She could live in a mansion for all I care...she's totally unfit to care for my niece.

So...I'm waiting a bit longer and then offering our home to my niece (I sent Valentine's day cards and goodies to them, and haven't heard anything. I expected SIL would email and say they got the package...so they may be annoyed with my whole family now because my parents voiced their concern about my niece going w/ biomom this summer).
If Brother/SIL proceed w/ their plan to send her to biomom's for the summer, it will mean I need to call CPS. I can't let her go with her biomom...I know that now. They did mention my niece has been waiting for over a month to hear from her biomom..and nothing. I'm trying to hold out some hope that if they don't take us up on our offer to have my niece spend time here this summer, that maybe they won't be in contact w/ biomom to have my niece sent there (which would hopefully mean not having to call CPS).

The whole situation is just awful.

Thanks again for thinking of me and the article gives me some food for thought. Very interesting topic.