When the only tactic that seems to work is being a bad parent :(

[JulieL]

Ok I know I'm not the only one here with this and Caroline's post was similar in content, but yesterday I nearly had a breakdown, alone - not a good thing.

The sad scene:

I took DS to a local mall because DH was on call yesterday and I knew he wouldn't be back home until about 10:00 p.m., so I wanted DS to be able to play at the full size playground there and run off his energy (which is quite high btw). I went to two store before we hit the playground, DS was fine and wanting to hold my hand. I held his hand, until I needed to check out and couldn't - that's when the break down began. We maintain sanity and get to the playground, but DS won't play, so we leave. He gets really upset, so I tell him after the next store we'll go back. We go to the store I find a hat for him, but then DD is waking up hungry, I say we'll come back for the hat and we go to the playground, we do he again doesn't go play. He says he wants to leave, we do - he freaks out starts screaming and then wants his hat. - he calms down enough so I go back for the hat that I promised (which I had been looking for for months so it was somthing I wanted, not a reward for him). He absolutely freaks out at the store, I check out and warn him he's gonna get in trouble if he doesn't control himself. I barely make it out of the store in one peice, DD is getting really hungry, so we find a bench and I nurse. I told DS that he was not going to get to play with his trains at home, that was his punishment - he gets upset I warn if he yells at me his Buzz was being put away too.

We get home, I put train away and he is SCREAMING at me. I'm crying asking him to stop, I"m now SCREAMING just so he can hear me. I leave the room crying. I tell him over and over to stop yelling at me, he calms down. We play candyland (cause I was worried he just wanted more attention, though that is what i was trying to do), we read books, then he digresses again, and gets to time outs - which he is yelling at me through.

I break down, cause the want to smack him was SO high, and it was a upsetting thought that I really wanted to back hand my child - and hard... sigh. Then I'm upset that I was screaming at him, and I was begging him to stop screaming at me... We some how made it through the day and my saving grace was his bed time.

He's not like this all the time, not even often but it does happen. In the past with just him I could give him full attention to discipline, but right now I just feel depleted with him and DD. She is a need to be held baby, and I had to stay on the couch last night just to get her pacified and asleep - not exactly one on one time with DS - which may be why he acted up. I don't know, he doesn't seem to take things out on her.

What would you do??? I tried reasoning, threatening, taking away his prized toy, time outs, and still didn't get respect from him. He's back talking to me, talking over me when I'm trying to repremend him, I"m really at a loss. The only thing that seems to get his attention is to yell (and I had a step mom who did this and really scarred me as a child) or I could spank him, but in the past that hasn't worked well and I don't want to really use it. Really I did all the methods that I could think of other than the spanking and still didn't get a desireable outcome. With DH's continuous long hours in med school I'm alone a lot, and need to find something that works so I don't feel as overwhelmed and alone again. No friends of mine are so close by to just come over and give me a break either - so what to do???


ETA: so this off and on fighting between us went on from 11:00 till his bedtime at 8:30 - to long to deal with this alone

ETA #2: also we have reward system when have been using for about a month or so, if he's good at the end of the day he get a smiley face, if he get 10 he gets to pick a goody out of a goody bag or watch a favorite movie, I told him he was getting a frownie (?sp) face yesterday and that didn't hold much water with him either, when usually the idea of not getting a smiley face deters him from bad behavior, so my other tactic didn't work either.

[dr mom]

** hugs **

No advice to offer, but I know that feeling of frustration when you've done everything you can think of and DS is still howling and uncooperative. I know you're unhappy with yourself for yelling, but the most important thing is that you didn't hit him, and you tried to meet his needs even when the one thing you REALLY wanted to do was lock yourself in the bathroom for an hour and escape the thousand demands of motherhood.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions - just wanted to offer some support!

[Metermaid]

Wow. You have my sympathies. Sounds like a total nightmare of a day. My DC isn't as old as yours, but i also have two kids and the older one gets like this sometimes. I've definitely reached my breaking point on more than one occasion. The first thing i can tell you is that you didn't do anything "wrong". Kids sometimes have melt-downs. My new technique for those total melt-down situations is basically to ignore DC. I know I'm not being reasonable and she's definitely not being reasonable. So I'll go into the other room (preferably not with the baby) and just do my own thing. Usually, DC will come find me in a few minutes and i'll be able to explain that i can't understand what's wrong and that DC will have to explain it to me using words. That usually calms her down. In addition, I find it's not very effective to punish later on. Meaning, I can't have something happen in the mall and then take away a toy when we get home. (However, that might just be because my child is younger than yours.) What I find is that leaving the mall has to be the consequence (e.g. punishment). And then that's it. When we get home, it's a whole new ball game.

That being said, my husband was also in school last year and he was out so many hours. It was so hard on me. I didn't fully gain my equilibrium until he finished. So just keep taking deep breaths and be careful to pick your battles.

[kijip]

No real advice since you really have to live it to know (each kid is so different so a parent's experience is often irrelevant to another parent) but a big hug!

Getting involved with a group of fellow moms might help as well- share discipline ideas, dish about the long hours alone etc. Are there other SAHPs married to the medical students you could get together with?

[trumansmom]

((hugs))

I've been there! Our DSs are about the same age, and the temper is astonishing! I think you did everything right, but I know how hard it was. Some days are just like that.

Have you read "Parenting with Love and Logic"? It has helped us a lot. It basically gives you the tools to handle situations like that which gets rid of that helpless, rotten parent feeling, and allows you to treat your child with compassion while letting them learn the consequences of their actions. (Could that have been a longer, more run-on sentence?!)

Hang in there!

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04
Independent Consultant, Do-Re-Me & You!

[ShayleighCarsensMom]

I can sympathize!
Personally, I dont really have a system that works, because I get the same emotions running high that you just explained. I am trying now to say this "I am counting to 3 and if you dont stop, you are going to your room (or XX is going to happen)". Then I say 1, if no improvement, I say 2, if no improvement, I say 3 and do what I said I was going to (leave the store, put her in her room..) Then I try to remove myself from the situation and say nothing until she starts winding down.
It still happens here, quite often, but I am able to deal with it if I remove myself from it.
I think the important thing to remember is that when they are in a tantrum, they cannot hear or process what you are saying, so there is no point in talking to them until they calm down.
As far as the reward system, it sounds like a good one, but 10 days is too long for him to have to wait, so he is not really going to care about that too much. Suppose you find positive behavior throughout the day, give him a smilie several times a day, so he GETS that reward. Make him succeed and focus on something positive, so he can get the idea of what it feels like, you know?
Anyways, sorry mama, I know how hard it can be!

[mamicka]

I was going to give the same suggestion about "Love & Logic". We've only been doing it for a short time but I totally see results. I've still got tons to learn & need to practice a lot but I just love the principles.

We've definitely had these kinds of days. It's really tough when you've got another little one who needs your attention.

The main thing that I've been doing from L&L that have really helped is giving Lawrence choices. I try to give him choices whenever I think of it. Even when I know what he wants, just so that he feels like he has some control. That way when I just can't give him any choices, he handles it much easier.

{{HUGS}} I totally understand the day you've had & you are not alone. Hang in there, Julie.

Allison

[californiagirl]

It sounds like you had a really hard day. It's so frustrating dealing with a toddler, and must be even more so with a baby to deal with as well. And even though you got desperate and miserable, you didn't hit him, you make no mention of alcohol or drugs... sounds like you held it together well! I mean, you didn't even get into the chocolate!

>What would you do??? I tried reasoning, threatening, taking
>away his prized toy, time outs, and still didn't get respect
>from him.

No matter what you do, toddlers are hard. So I don't want you think I'm telling you that what you're doing is wrong. But there are more options it sounds like you haven't tried.

Mine is just about 2, so I can't give you advice from experience. I can tell you that I don't think any of these things would get compliance from mine, and that I get better results if I don't think about it as being about respecting me. If I think she's being disrespectful to me it becomes a really big deal; if I think of her as a really upset little person who's not thinking about me because she's overwhelmed I can deal with her without getting my hurt feelings into it too much.

It's hard to explain exactly what I do, because it probably sometimes looks like reasoning and sometimes looks like threatening, but it doesn't feel like it to us (when I get it right!) It comes mostly from "Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline" and "Becoming the Parent You Want to Be", with a big dose of the Gentle Christian Mothers discipline board: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?board=19.0

[mommyj_2]

First, I want to send some hugs your way. We've all had crazy days as parents.
I had a few thoughts when I read your post, and thought I'd share them in case they're at all helpful. It sounds to me like you have put a lot of love, thought, and energy into trying a lot of different approaches. I thought I'd throw a few others out there, in case they seem like something you might want to try.
First, it seems like you already sense that finding some help might give you a much needed break. I noticed that even when I put my DS in preschool 6 hours/week (2 hours/day, 3 days/week), it made a huge difference in how drained I felt. Have you thought about preschool for your DS? Or, if money is an issue with your DH in school, what about a swap where you and a few moms take turns watching your children? I have a friend who does this, and it gives her time to run errands without her kiddos. I think one of the biggest challenges many moms in the US face right now is our isolation. I personally think it is nuts that society thinks moms should be alone all day with their kids every day, and have to figure out how to keep them happy/entertained/content. Especially by 3, and even at 1 and 2, children love having other children around, and they want to be running around, interacting with other kids. If you can't find a swap or a preschool, a play group might help a lot. Between that and play dates, your DS might work off more of his energy.
Another thing I thought I'd throw out is that every toddler/preschool age child I know hates the mall, and they especially hate errands/shopping. My DS is generally a really happy child (very high needs, but happy), and he HATES the mall. I do as much shoppping online or when DH is watching DS, because I know it will take 8 million times longer to buy anything if DS is there, and I know he will be miserable and struggling with me the whole time.
I always try to put myself in my DS' shoes, and to think about what he is experiencing in any given situation. So...for the scenario you described, I would try to think about what it must feel like for your DS to be at the mall. What if he didn't feel like playing? What if he didn't feel like shopping? What if he just wanted to go home and do something else, or wanted to look somewhere but couldn't communicate it to you? I think much of what most parents see as bad behavior stems from the need all of us (including children) have to feel that our needs/wants are valued, and that we have some control over our daily activities/lives. So, he freaked out because he really did want to leave, and not because he was trying to be bad (if he had been older, he probably would have complained a little bit, walked off on his own, or done what my DH tends to do, which is to nag often enough that I usually leave him at home when I shop...he hates the mall as much as my DS does). Like adults, kids react to our reactions to their behavior. I have greatly minimized conflicts with my DH by becoming nicer when he's overtired and isn't his usual, sweet self. Or by compromising on things that don't matter too much to be. I've found that the same approach works well with my DS (and also with my friends' toddlers and preschool age children).
A PP mentioned that giving choices helps a lot, and I agree. I think it is a way to let your child feel empowered, and to let them feel like their needs/wants matter. It doesn't mean you always give them what they want, but that there is communication and compromise. Children have amazingly complex emotions, but they don't have the language to articulate them...thus, the screaming and/or temper tantrums. I won't pretend to know what will work for your DS, but I think it might be worth trying to step outside the framework of punishments (and the flip side of this, which is a system based on rewards), and to try to see what happens if you think of you and your children as partners, or as three people trying to exist peacefully together. I'm guessing your DS sees you meeting the needs of your DD (by nursing, etc.), and he wants some kind of similar acknowledgement that his needs are important, or a time when he feels like he is getting to decide what you do (maybe something where you tell him you need to run some errands, and when you're done, he can decide if he wants to play at the mall or go to the library). I find that when I have a day where I have a lot of errands to run, it really helps my DS if I've talked to him ahead of time, explained what we have to do, and told him that in the middle of the errands, we'll go for a special lunch (or smoothie, or something he likes), or that we'll go to the park for a while.
Also, this is probably obvious, but I notice that some of our melt downs have happened because I forgot to bring enough snacks/water for my DS and I.
Sorry this is so long. I'm just trying to think of some other approaches that might help your DS feel more relaxed and less confrontational. Hang in there, Mama!

[brittone2]

Another vote for that board :) No advice other than that, but I'm so sorry you had a hard day :(

[muskiesusan]

Well, I wasn't the model parent an hour ago when Nick intentionally pushed Alex down the stairs for no other reason then he was in his way. I still don't think Nick fully understands how wrong he was even though I after I calmed down, I discussed it with him and showed him how he hurt Alex (he bit his tongue and was bleeding).

I think we will have days when our kids push our buttons and we react differently then how we hope we would to the situation, so don't be too hard on yourself. It sounds like you had a really trying day!


Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01
& Alex 04/04

[barbarhow]

Julie-I just wanted to offer up some hugs. It is so hard parenting two-I was going to qualify that but don't think I need to. 1 seems like it was a cakewalk now that I have two. I think one of the things that has been the hardest thing for me to get used to is the notion that kids need to cry sometimes and temper tantrums are a normal part of child growth and development. I, too, have many a day and many nights when DH is working and I am on my own. I know what that feels like.
It has helped me to talk to a child development expert who has explained to me (reminded me, really) that kids need to experience optimum frustration-that is, what they feel when they have a temper tantrum because they aren't getting what they want. They need to feel it and work through it and see that although it feels like they are going to die-that they won't. It helps them to experience this frustration and learn to cope with the discomfort that this evokes. Even though our instincts may say-soothe him-give him what he wants, anything to make this tantrum stop. For instance-Jack wants to watch a movie. I tell him no. (I am sure I have a good reason for that. :-) ) He throws himself on the floor and starts sobbing. I tell him I am sorry that he is angry with me. "But Mama, I need to watch xxx". No Jack. I am sorry. You want to watch x and Mama said no." I let him cry a bit and as he starts to settle I suggest another activity. The theory is that while in the throes of this he thinks he will die if he doesn't get to watch it. He really does think he needs to watch it. In time with patience (Yeah, I have so much of that lately) he will develop self esteem and coping mechanisms and learn to soothe himself when he is hit with frustration. Does that make sense?
My DH just walked by and said "Writing a novel?" Uh, yeah. I guess so. Anyway I hope this helps. It is more to say-it isokay for him to be frustrated and have the tantrum. IYKWIM.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[mamamayi]

Hi Julie -
Hugs from me too. I know exactly how you feel. When kids and/or parents yell, it's not a good thing -- but it's something that happens sometimes. Don't make yourself feel too guilty about this. It sounds like you are a great momma, and even great mommas have hard days where they don't know what to do or they wish they could have done something different.

I know you pray, so something that has helped me in the past about MY feelings is just to pray right at the time I feel overwhelmed (and maybe you did...) That doesn't address the issue with DS, but it might make you more able to handle things. Possibly even praying with DS if you can and he is able to understand.

I agree that some support would be really good, but it sounds like maybe you're not in a position to get any. Is this something that you could arrange somehow? You said there was no one living close by, but you also said that this doesn't happen frequently with DS, so maybe it would not have mattered in this particular instance because you needed immediate relief.

Take heart. I believe you are doing great job. I wish I had more to offer.

May

[ca mom to 2]

No magic solutions, but lots of sympathy. It happens more often than I care to admit around here. My five year old has some developmental delays that we're still trying to figure out. I told my husband the other day that a good day lately is when she just ignores everything I ask her. The really bad days are when she argues with every word out of my mouth.

I do agree with someone else about the timing of the rewards. The collecting of stickers to earn a reward does absolutely no good around here. It just isn't motivating for her. Also, the taking the toys away when we get home, just sets me up for another argument while I'm trying to put the toys away, and I REALLY try to pick my arguments.

Lots and lots of sympathy headed your way.

Cathy

Carly 5 years
Nick 18 months

[psophia17]

Aww Julie - big, gigantic hugs coming your way.

I think the only thing you can do is take a deep breath, and keep doing your best.

[missym]

Julie, you are NOT a bad parent! You are a loving, concerned parent of two young children, one of whom is at a particularly challenging age. In other words, a sometimes over-stressed one! I think you need to go easy on yourself.

Gwen, like Jack, is adjusting to sharing the central spot in the universe with a younger sibling. Becca is also a hold-me-constantly baby, and I know that is hard for Gwen. Gwen is absolutely at her worst when I am alone with the two of them, when I'm not feeling well, or in stressful situations. It's like her mood just feeds off the stress and magnifies it. If the meltdown happens when we're at home, she goes to her room until we both calm down. If it happens when we're out and about, we leave. I don't think you *can* get through to them when they're in this kind of mood.

I'm sorry I don't have any good solutions, but I can certainly commisserate. If yelling when you're at your wit's end and only thinking of spanking puts one in the bad parent club, I think you'll find you have lots of company there. ;)

Missy, mom to Gwen 03/03 and Rebecca 09/05

[JulieL]

Well now I've had some time to breathe I feel better. Thank you so much for the replies, I really needed some other perspectives. It's so horrible to have a day where you really don't like your own child. I told DH the reward time needs to be shorter, I think I really agree that it needs to be shorter. We were doing 7 days and that was going well, and then DH wanted to lengthen it, but it's just not working. I think I sometimes forget that he is still a toddler because really he is so on the brink of being a boy. It's hard to see **that look - you know the one!** of complete defiance and not have my blood just boil. I think if I think of him as a toddler still it will help with my frustrations. He's a little man still in a baby body.

He is in preschool 3 days a week but I work and take care of my DD at home during then, so it's not a break. He goes to his grandma's for one day a week so I can work as well. I do get together with friends with kids about once a week, and have church on sunday. He has a full schedule, but he is an all or nothing child and basically only slows down if he has 1. crashed into a dead sleep or 2. is sick. So this is challenging because making him tired tires me down a lot. BUT, my goal is to try to do more with just him when time permits to give him that sence of being special.

Thanks for the commfort I really needed it. I'm very drained and hope by this weekend I'm made up on some badly needed sleep as well!

Here's to a better day in the neighborhood ;)

[jerseygirl07067]

Hugs to you Julie! You are totally not a bad parent. We all have days, just refer to many of my previous posts on this! I have seen more of the days you've described recently. And yes, I was so tempted to give Sammy a smack when it's gotten really bad, but I restrained myself somehow. I guess it's my own frustration that I'd be taking out on her if I did it.

Not much advice, since we're still figuring this out as we go along, but I'm interested also to hear the other responses you get. We are in the same boat as you, no family really close by and all my friends seem so busy with their own lives these days...

Marcy

[SewSarahSew]

You got some really good advice from previous posters, but I wanted to add a couple of thoughts.

You are really drained. Every mother of two young children is, it is such hard work! And I can't imagine not having my dh around much, I can't tell you how many times I was counting the minutes until 5:30 when he would be home and I could have a few minutes to myself and help with the kids. I highly recommend you get a regular sitter or moms day out or something where you can get a break. Even if it's just 2 hours a week, where you are without your kids and you aren't working, just 2 hrs for you would make a world of difference. Can you imagine going to a coffee shop alone, with a book to read? Don't you NEED that? Trust me, you will feel much more sane and be more able to problem-solve on the fly, which obviously makes you a better parent.

No, your husband doesn't probably get 2 hrs a week. But, he is dealing with grown-ups. He has a different job altogether. No, your mother probably didn't get a 2 hr a week break either, but that was a different world. We have such isolation these days as moms. My mother tells me she had a group of other moms, they would meet DAILY, sometimes in the mornings AND after naptime, for support. So the kids would be busy and they could just chat. We don't have that kind of support except online!

My son has certainly had days like the one you described, but they were much more frequent when he was 3. Now that he is 4 and going to school every morning at a wonderful Montessori school that he loves, he is a changed boy. He is growing up and learning how to process his emotions, learning appropriate ways to react and express his opinions. These are things we learn, mostly by experience. Tantrums are sooooo normal. Bad days are sooooo normal. And my son sounds like yours, very high energy, very, very busy all day. Honestly, I rarely take him shopping. He hates it, he's bored, which is just the way his dad feels about shopping, incidently!

One of the biggest thing that has helped our discipline issues is giving Daniel responsibities and jobs. If he can participate and feel like a contributing member of the family, he is productive and helpful and not getting into trouble. He really wants to feel useful. You should see his face when he finishes emptying the dishwasher - he is so proud of himself! He knows he has been helpful, he has been good, and this totally changes his mood and attitude. Now I cannot order him to do these things, he doesn't have 'chores', it's not that. If he sees something 'grown-up' he wants to do, I let him. I may suggest something, but I'm not talking about chores or making him do anything. And I try to treat him with respect, as a real person, not as a little one that I get to order around. (I don't mean to imply that's what you're doing with your son. But thinking clearly about how I speak to him and interact with him makes a big difference!)

I hope that helps a little-