Another sleep question - Naps!

[maestramommy]

I'm feeling loaded with questions this week, so.....

Dora takes such SHORT naps. As short as 20 minutes, average is 45. On the occasion when she takes a long nap (60-90 min) I can never figure out why, so I can't get her to repeat it. Of course she naps when I take her for a walk, but there's so much noise I really don't know how good that nap is. In the last week I've finally gotten the hang of nursing in side lying position, and I noticed that when I nurse her this way, she can end up sleeping for quite a while, whether it's after she wakes up a little early in the morning, or in the middle of the afternoon. Usually I end up dropping off with her for a while. Is this a good idea? I mean, it makes the feeding very long, I have no idea what kind of a meal she got, and I thought a baby isn't supposed to take a nap right after feeding. Maybe that was a Babywise thing only, but aren't you supposed to follow a feeding with playtime, or something that keeps them awake for a while, so they don't associate eating with sleeping? Or does this not matter?

Summary: How can I get Dora to take a longer nap consistently? I feel like she doesn't get enough sleep. She sleeps about 10-11 hours a night, plus whatever I can get from the naps.

[TraciG]

I think she's to young to be on a nap schedule unfortunately. It's unpredictable until 6 or 7 month's I think . I used to be able to ONLY get Sydney to sleep in her swing, had to be moving the entire time

Most babies sleep after nursing / bottle.

Good luck, sleep was such an issue with us when Sydney was an infant !!

[TraciG]

I think she's to young to be on a nap schedule unfortunately. It's unpredictable until 6 or 7 month's I think . I used to be able to ONLY get Sydney to sleep in her swing, had to be moving the entire time

Most babies sleep after nursing / bottle.

Good luck, sleep was such an issue with us when Sydney was an infant !!

[mudder17]

I think she is too young to be expecting naps of any consistency. That said, some babies her age do actually take longer naps--I think it's just something that varies from baby to baby. I thought about disconnecting the feeding from the whole sleeping thing, but I finally gave that up and did the whole nursing to sleep thing and it worked very well. Eventually Kaya got to the point where she would nurse, and then she would roll over and be ready to be transferred to her crib. She did that on her own, though, sometime after 4-6 months. Prior to that, we definitely did the nursing to sleep thing and I would just let her sleep on my bed or occasionally transfer her to the crib. And yes, she slept longer that way than if I put her down awake.

We did the whole Sleep Training thing at 18 months (as you know), but even then, with naps, my whole go was to get her as well rested during the day so that she would be able to sleep better at night. That definitely included nursing her to sleep during the day. As far as I can tell, it never harmed her for me to do that. :P


Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[ellies mom]

As far as naps go, my DD went from two 2-hour naps to two 30-min naps at about four months. While I understand the reasoning behind separating sleeping and eating, I wouldn't worry too much about Babywise. Nor would I worry about the extra long nap feeding. Plus the bonus there is that you get a well deserved nap and there isn't much that is more heavenly than napping with your baby. Relish it. Also in my mind a nap while walking counts even if it may seem loud to us. Thay can sleep through anything.

It seems like your baby is getting plenty of sleep. At least according to what my doctor said when I asked her the same question. Basically she said that she should be sleeping about 11-12 hours total and it sounds like Dora is getting that.

One nap trick that seemed to work on occasion was in Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution. She recommends being right where you can respond quickly, and the moment she starts to wake you do whatever it takes (nursing, rocking, patting her on the back, etc) to get her back to sleep. Usually after a day or so of that, your baby should nap longer on her own. I have to say though, that sometimes it is easier said than done. I didn't always have much luck getting her back to sleep but when I could it really did seem to help.

I know the first several months are hard. It seems like the moment you get used to her schedule, she changes it. Hang in there. It really does sound like she is doing great. Remember she is still really young.

[heidiann]

I definately think she is too young for a sleep/nap schedule. Be thankful she sleeps 10-11 hours at night. Jillian will be three months old this week and she doesn't sleep longer than 5 hours at night. She wakes up for a bottle but does go right back to sleep.
During the day it seems like everyday is different with her, some days she'll take nice long naps ( sleeps for 2-2 1/2 hours, be awake an hour or so and go back to sleep) some days she doesn't take a nap at all, or maybe a catnap for like 20 minutes. So my theory is shes just too young to get a schedule and in a few months everything will work out. I'm hoping anyways, LOL...

Heidi
Mom to Jillian 10/20/05

[maestramommy]

Thanks everybody,
I'll try not to get too anal about the naps. It's just that when she fusses in the evenings I wonder if it's because she hasn't slept enough. Esp. with a neice that sleeps over 15 hours and is an angel during the day :-).

[ellies mom]

She fusses during the evening because she is a baby and that is what they do. As for your niece, don't worry her parents will get theirs. My nephew was a dream infant and a holy terror of a toddler. My other nephew was a cranky, clingy infant and an absolute dream toddler. It all has a way of evening out.

[mudder17]

Ha! She's already going through her "terrible twos" although admittedly, it's much worse when she doesn't get enough sleep. :) She's now getting around 10 hours at night and a 2-3 hour nap during the day. That seems to work pretty well for her.

Anyway, most of the time, Kaya is pretty good, but she definitely has her moments! So not the "angel" you think she is, Melinda! ;) (well, at least not during those moments)

ETA: Just wanted to clarify, Kaya is not (yet) a holy terror as a toddler. She's merely testing her boundries like most toddlers, I think.

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[maestramommy]

sorry for the extra message, but I'm trying to change my avatar and it's not working, da*@#it!

[maestramommy]

okay, one more time!

[maestramommy]

Oh, I thought the fussy thing was something that lasted until the 8th week approximately. After that, if they were fussy it was because they were tired, or needed a changing, or needed to eat. Okay, another easy illusion down the toliet :-)

Sorry about the avatar folks. I'm trying to change it but I can't get a square pic.

[kboyle]

DS2 is a terrible napper and someone in an old post recommended Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Marc Weissbluth and after reading the parts that pertained to me I felt more confident in the way I was dealing with his sleep rituals & habits. He still only naps for about 1 hr, but I now know when to get him down & all that has worked to make him sleep thur the night. Now that he's a better sleeper, he a MUCH happier baby.

He also suggest that if you feed/nurse your babe to sleep and it works, then do it. DS1 has always been an awesome napper and sleeper and he still goes to bed RIGHT AFTER his lunch. I don't think it's too bad to associate feeding & sleeping. When I have a big meal I want to nap :)

BUT he also does mention CIO for older babes & toddlers, and I don't know how you feel about that.

I checked it out at my library because I wasn't sure that I was going to like his method and I ended up loving the book. To me, it truely helped.

HTH

[mudder17]

If you want to send me the pic, I can make it square for you. :)

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[Momof3Labs]

If she is fussy in the evenings, you could try putting her to bed earlier. DS went through a period when he went to bed for the night at around 5:30pm (and pretty much slept through the night). If she ends up getting up ridiculously early in the morning, then maybe it's not the answer, but maybe it is her natural sleep pattern. Gosh, I remember the days of DS sleeping 5:30pm - 5:30am, and then going down for his first nap by around 8am! Sounds weird, but it worked so well for him that we adjusted our schedule to work with it.

[maestramommy]

I did actually think about this last night because she was whining all through dinner. We've actually been holding her on our laps while we eat, and that keeps her happy for a while. But last night she got sick of it sooner. I did wonder whether we should try to get her to bed even earlier than we have been. But then she nursed for 45 minutes, fell asleep, and woke up 15 minutes later and had to be nursed back to sleep. All told, she finally settled down 50 minutes after her "stated bedtime," then woke up twice during the night to feed. I think she didn't get enough to eat during the nursing marathon, but my milk is so low by then I really don't know what to do about it.

[maestramommy]

My sis told me about the Weissbluth book. DH and I are pretty booked out at the moment so we decided to pass on it unless things really start getting out of hand. For now she does sleep through the night, if you define that as waking only to feed then going right back down. She's done that for a while. Our main problems is her letting DH put her down at night (that was another thread) and naps.

Dora generally is a happy baby; at least that's what my friends and relatives say. It's only at night that she starts fussing. Since she's gotten older she's stopped with the crying and instead is whining. That's a little more tolerable because she can do it for longer periods, and doesn't melt down for a long while.

[smilequeen]

My son was like that for a very long time until it just clicked. He was the opposite though as the naps clicked before the night. I tried the Pantley (No Cry Sleep Solution) stuff and finally just gave up on naps and did whatever worked. Funny b/c that did eventually work for nights. For me that meant I spent about and hour and half every afternoon driving around in my car (thank GOD for drive through Starbucks) or holding him and popping in a movie because he'd sleep fine in my arms. I would let him take 2 short naps in his crib, hoping for him to get used to it, which he finally did. I think he was about 9 months when the naps clicked, and now he either takes 2 60-90 minute naps or 1 2-3 hour nap.

[Momof3Labs]

She may have fallen asleep while nursing (before she finished) because she was just too tired to stay awake long enough to eat all she needed. Also, babies that are past their bedtime (their biological clock bedtime, not your bedtime for them) are notoriously harder to settle down. Both of those things suggest to me that you may have success trying an earlier bedtime!

[maestramommy]

For me
>that meant I spent about and hour and half every afternoon
>driving around in my car (thank GOD for drive through
>Starbucks)
You have drive thru Starbucks? I'm jealous!!! I have a bunch of gift cards I'd love to use, but hauling the carseat in and out is SUCH a pain!

I remember holding her once for almost an hour while she slept. When I put her down, she slept for another 90 minutes. Only worked once though:-). That's the trouble; everything only works once. :-(

[KrisM]

I agree with Lori. DS went through a time where he was in bed by 6:15 or so every night. That was at about 4 months or so. He'd be up about 6:30 and down for a nap at 8:30 or so. It was weird!

Also, he had very short naps - 45 min. or so until about 9 months. Then, he developed a schedule on his own.

[mudder17]

Kaya was one of those 5:00 - 6:00 type kids, so really early to bed kiddo. And yes, there were days when she was up by 5 a.m., sigh, but she was usually ready for a nap by 8:00 or so. It was rather weird, but we just went with the flow. Her naps didn't really develop a good schedule until closer to 8-9 months, either.


Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[brittone2]

DS went through a spurt like this around 6 months. He slept a TON when he was a small infant, but around 6 months he took frequent, short catnaps. It drove me bonkers, but like most other kid things, he outgrew it in time and settled into a great nap schedule eventually.

We still nurse to sleep for naps and bedtime at 23 months...for us it is relatively quick, always reliable, and we both like it :) so I don't worry about it.

[maestramommy]

So last night we tried putting her to bed earlier. It was a bath night, which makes the process longer, but still, she was asleep by 8, an hour earlier than usual. Unforunately, she woke up 90 minutes later hungry! I just can't understand it. After her bath DH fed her 2 oz, then I let her nurse as long as she wanted. Should I have let her have 4 oz first. Since I usually bf, I have no idea how much she really takes in during a feeding. She ended up waking again at 1:30 to feed, then 3:30 for a quickie, then 5:30 for a quickie, then 10 minutes later for a serious feed, after which I just left her in my bed. (I usually go to her room to feed). She's just starting to wake up now at 8:15.

Okay, so the first time was a little rocky, and we'll keep trying the early bedtime for a couple of weeks. But why is she continuing to wake up so often during the night? I know this sounds ridiculous to complain, but she was waking up only once or not at all for a while, but this week she's been getting up more. And she's always hungry! I've been wanting to add the bottle at bedtime so DH can have more face time with her, but I only want to give the amount I pumped the night before, because I'm worried about diminishing my supply. Should I just give her a full bottle no matter what and let the supply take care of itself? I should mention that on nights like last night I don't get to pump at all because she takes the milk and I only have a handpump that works best if you're really full. Aaarrrrrggghhhh!

[juliasmom05]

Could she be going through a growth spurt right now? That may explain why she is waking up more at night to nurse.

Marci

Mom to Julia 4/05

[maestramommy]

heh heh, she seems to have been on a continual series of growth spurts since birth. I thought they only happen at certain milestones (6 wks, 3 months, 6 months), but she seems to hit one every 3 weeks or less. Is thta possible?

[BeachBaby]

Honestly, I think her sleep pattern is pretty average for a 3.5 month old. I know it's frustrating that she used to sleep much longer, but I have to tell you that, in my experience and from what I've read here, sleep patterns change more often than anything else. Just when you think you've got it all figured out and you have a system that is working for you and the baby, bam!, it changes.

I know it's frustrating. My 18 month old woke up 3x last night (9, 12, and 4:30). I have no idea why; she normally sleeps all night. The 4:30 one was particularly hard because I have to get up for work at 6. At the risk of sounding like a pollyanna, the best advice I have is to go with the flow as much as possible. Which is hard, I know, because it's very stressful to feel like you have no control over the situation, especially when you are sleep deprived. I try to remind myself that it won't be this way forever.

Sorry I don't have any concrete advice for things you can try. I hope today is a better day for you. :)

[juliasmom05]

I think anything is possible especially when it comes to sleeping and nursing. I am also not the best person to give advice on sleep issues as we are still struggling with this as well :-(. DD used to sleep through the night (9 or 10 hours straight) when she was 3 1/2 months old. Now, not so much. I agree with PP, once you think you have figured it out, bam, it changes and you have no idea why.

So, no real advice, but hang in there, they tell me, it does get better.

Marci

Mom to Julia 4/05

[Momof3Labs]

If she's not napping well, it may still be too much to expect her to stay up until 8pm (note that most of us who mentioned early bedtimes working for us were talking 6pm-ish). Plus, it takes a little while for them to settle into an earlier bedtime, honestly, and not see it as a nap. Not to mention that she's still awfully young to be on much of a schedule at all.

Most of us can also tell stories of babies who were sleeping well at night, and started waking more often. I'm also inclined to guess growth spurt, in which case you're probably better off going with straight nursing and trying to add the bedtime bottle back in a few weeks (let DH give her a bottle in the morning, or during the day on the weekends). Though at this age, she could also be starting to teeth, which disrupts sleep. Or she could be coming down with a cold, which can also disrupt sleep. It just may not be possible to *know* what is going on; all you can do is go with the flow, as someone mentioned!

[BeachBaby]

Just wanted to add a few more thoughts. You say that she's always hungry, but I am going to guess that she's probably not and it just seems that way because nursing her is what gets her back to sleep. For example, you said that she woke up at 3:30 and 5:30 "for a quickie". I'm guessing that she wasn't hungry then, that really she woke up and because she's so young she does not have the ability to self-soothe herself back to sleep. Nursing, really the comfort from the suckling, is probably what she needed to get herself back to sleep.

If you are open to trying a pacifier and you don't want to nurse her all the time, you may try having your husband give her a pacifier during a night waking to see if that will enable her to get back to sleep.

Or, Lori et al could be right, that it is a growth spurt. Or teething. Or any other number of things. :)

Hang in there!

[maestramommy]

I would LOVE to use the pacifier, but she's not very good at it. We were using the Nuk, which was a freebie, and I just switched to Avent, thinking maybe it was the shape. But same problem, which is also her problem with the bottle. Her tongue doesn't know where to go, and it gets all tangled up. It happened last night with the bottle, and she got so frustrated. I finally had to calm her down, put the bottle to her, then switch with DH once she got the hang of it. I guess my nipple is much softer and more flexible, unlike the bottle nipples and pacifier. With the paci she ends up chewing it more often than not. When she does suck, it's for a little bit, then she spits it out.

Okay, I think I was just feeling disgruntled because she had been sleeping so well, and suddenly waking up three times a night was something I was no longer used to. But if it's going to happen for a while, I'll know to expect it, and get used jumping up. On the plus side, I have no trouble getting back to sleep myself. For the last couple of weeks I'd wake up and lie awake for up to 3 hours in the middle of the night! I guess I was used to going to her. I've been using that time to pump, but that only takes 10 minutes.

Thanks for the encouragement. I know it gets better in the long run. It's just sometimes I feel like when DH says,"When is she gonna be old enough to learn how to change the oil?"

[BeachBaby]

Simone was the same way with the pacifier. When I was really desperate for her to take it (like if we were in the car and I couldn't nurse her), I would just hold it in with my finger. Now I'm kind of glad she never took to it. We're having a hard enough time weaning her off the bottle; I'm glad I don't have to do the pacifier, too! ;)