CIO w/ a BF baby?

[rebeccaravit]

DS had his 4 month check up yesterday and while I was describing his sleep habits his doctor said that I can try to let him CIO. I explained that on random occasions he will sleep from 8p-5a without waking up but more frequently he will wake up at 1, 3 and 5. She asked if he's waking to eat or to cuddle with me and I told her that I usually won't know until I am trying to nurse him. Sometimes he eats and other times he just sucks to sleep.

I spoke with a lactation consultant today about another issue and mentioned the night waking. She told me that I should certainly pick him up and feed DS.

Isn't there a point that this just becomes habitual and DS will cry b/c he knows I will come in to hold him? I feel awful knowing that my child may CIO when he is in fact hungry. I also hate knowing that I may be getting no sleep b/c I am in a vulnerable situation.

What did other BF moms do?

Just curious, does CIO work with naps too?

[o_mom]

Personally, I feel that 4 months is way too early for CIO, BF or not. At that age, IMO, their wants are their needs... you can't go wrong givng them what they want. For reference, DS2 is 9 mo and still waking 1-2 times per night - going 4-6 hours at a time. Just had a check up and the ped didn't say a thing.

With DS1, we night weaned around 10-11 months by having DH rock him back to sleep in the night. It took 20-30 min the first few nights, but after about a week he figured it wasn't worth getting up if there was no boob involved. :-)

[mudder17]

We did CIO at 18 weeks but the CIO was to help her fall asleep at bedtime and only wake when she was hungry. If you want details, feel free to e-mail me, but basically, she was still eating 2-3 times a night even with CIO for bedtime. There were a few times she would wake up, cry out, then roll over and go to sleep, but for the most part, if she woke up, she was hungry and she would go right back to sleep after feeding.

She gave up her night feedings on her own the day before she turned 10 months, but like I said, after doing the CIO, she was a great sleeper and slept from 5 p.m. to 6 a.m. and 2-3 feedings.

ETA: IMO, 4 months is way too young to go through the night without eating, at least with most babies. Kaya's friend and neighbor did go through the night fairly early, but he was also >100% for height and weight, so my guess is that was a contributing factor. :) CIO did in fact work for us, but again, it was not to wean her from night feedings. I'm glad I waited for her to give that up on her own.

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
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Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[brittone2]

ITA w/ O mom. 4 months is so very young IMO to go for extended periods of time without nursing.

I never nightweaned DS...he still nurses and cosleeps at 23 months, but I'm totally fine with that, as is DH. I know that's not for everyone though ;)

There are moms here who did do CIO at 4 months, but that is really the *absolute* earliest that it is considered even remotely okay to do it by most experts, even the more hard-core ones. FWIW, a lot of pediatricians aren't parenting experts or BFing experts. Many of them go by Ferber because that's all they know, and even Ferber has recently changed his tune saying not all babies should/can CIO and that cosleeping can work out just fine ;) Not all of the Ferber-loving pediatricians have caught up with that info yet.

A 5 hour stretch is considered to be "sleeping through the night," so if you are putting him to bed at 8, even if he wakes at 1, he's still going a long time without nursing....that would be considered sleeping through the night by lots of people since it is 5 hours. They are so young, and they go through such growth spurts in the early months that I personally just think if they want to eat, they need to eat. Breastmilk is also very easily digested, so a BF baby needs to eat more often than a FF baby (in general).

I don't know what to tell you...there are some people here that think CIO works wonders and others who are very against it. I personally am with O-mom that IMO their wants are their needs at this age. Even if DC just wants comfort or to be held, at 4 months IMO that is just fine :) Most of us as adults like a little human contact during the night...that's why most people like sharing a bed with their spouse vs. separate beds/bedrooms.

I can't tell you what to do...a lot of it is personal parenting philosophy.

As they get older they have better self-soothing skills to work through it if you opt to night wean later.

But...again...it is all very individual. I'm sure you'll get both sides represented here.

[californiagirl]

At DD's 12 month appointment, the Dr. asked about DD's sleep, and I said she still nursed once or twice a night. The Dr. assured me that I had screwed up her sleep and she was waking because she didn't know how to go to sleep on her own. I pointed out that she didn't nurse to sleep in the first place and rarely nursed back to sleep when she woke. The Dr. was not convinced. The next night DD started sleeping through the night.

DD slept through the night from about 2 weeks to about 6 months, and started again
at about a year. Between 6 months and a year, she actually ATE at night. She's a big eater, although not a big baby. I worked with her to stretch out the time between feedings when she was waking and not seriously eating. She did cry, but I didn't leave her to cry by herself, and I didn't try to make her sleep through the night, because I didn't think she was ready (and I feel vindicated by the fact that one day she was ready, and she did sleep through the night, all by herself).

[VClute]

Can't write much right now, but read this:

http://www.kellymom.com/parenting/sleep/4mo-sleep.html

It made me feel much better about continuing to feed DS in the night when he was ONCE a through-the-night sleeper. HTH!

Amy in NC
mom to Dixon, born 2/14/05

[HannaAddict]

I agree with Beth and oMom. Four months is too young to CIO, though I know people have done it. I can't imagine doing that to a baby that young though and listening to my SIL try to do it was truly awful. Four months is just so young to start having expectations, babies are not little manipulative adults. They are babies and are sometimes inconvenient, like to be held and need to eat a lot. :) And breast milk is really like rocket fuel, it is great for its purpose but burns off really quickly. My son night weaned on his own but probably around a year. At four months, he was waking up two or three times a night to nurse and then went right back to sleep. He self soothes, can wake up and fall back asleep on his own, and all without CIO. We just did it on his schedule and it was much less traumatic for all involved. Good luck.

Kimberly

[daisyandacorn]

I'd have a really hard time making my baby CIO, and at 4 months I really wouldn't even consider it.....I know that many do-I'm just saying that I wouldn't.
I know that sleep deprivation is hard to deal with but I'm more comfortable with that than with a baby bawling :(
I love our Ped. and really trust her-she doesn't ask about things like that, she more does the basic stuff and asks Dd how she's feeling and gives her a good once over every time she sees her
Our previous doctor was always spouting nonsense and we just did the smile and nod thing until we could find someone that we liked better.
If you do want to try CIO, I'd wait at least a few months.
That's my honest opinion, I truly don't want to offend any mothers who practice CIO,it's just not for me and the op is asking for opinions.
Hope that helps,
Susan

[Rachels]

Since you asked what other BF moms do, I'll tell you that BF or not, I wouldn't leave my child to cry. I'm glad my kids know I'll hold them if they need me without checking the clock before I make that decision. They're only babies for such an incredibly short time. If they cry, I comfort them.

What you're describing is decent sleep for a little four month old. He'll figure it out with time, and if you choose to go to him when he needs you, I think that's fine.

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
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Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.jpg


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[brittone2]

Rebecca-I was thinking more about your post. I remember reading advice somewhere that it can be helpful to try a "dream feed"-shortly before you would normally go to bed yourself, either lay the baby in bed with you if he will still stay asleep and see if he'll nurse a bit in his sleep, or if not, wake him, nurse him and put him back to sleep. (disclaimer...I never did this w/ DS and have no experience with it).

Your DS is sleeping a good stretch, even if you are looking at 8pm-1am. It just isn't a good stretch in conjunction w/ your own sleep schedule, kwim?

It seems counterintuitive to wake your baby, but it might be worth trying to see if it then gives you a stretch of say 11-4 or 11-5, kwim? There's no guarantee it will work obviously, because it may just be his own internal clock that makes him wake up hungry at 1am and 3am, but it could be worth a try. It would essentially allow you to top off his tank a bit before you head to bed yourself.

[kath68]

The sleep thing is so hard! You think you know what you are facing before the baby comes, because you hear all the stories, but when the sleep deprivation actually kicks in, it's a doozey!

I agree with the pps -- 4 months is too early to CIO. But, do your own research, then trust your mommy instincts. I recommend two books: The No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley (for the no CIO view), and Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child by Weissbluth (for the CIO view).

Personally, I did CIO at 9 months after being convinced to do it by my ped. It was horrible. And it was exactly the right thing for me to do. I know it with every ounce of my mommy brain. I should have done it earlier -- maybe at 7-8 months.

But every family is different, and this is something you absolutely have to decide for yourself.

[emilyf]

My dd is also 4 months, and sleeps through the night. I hesitate to respond to these types of posts, b/c I know a lot of people get very emotional about this issue, but I will quickly say that I do let my 4 mo. old cry-and did the same with my son. I can usually tell if it is a fussy, trying to get back to sleep cry or a real hungry wail-in which case I get her. She also generally cries a bit (5-10 min) when I put her down for a nap- my son was harder and I didn't have as easy a time telling, but did pretty much the same thing. I would suggest if you hear him at night to wait a few minutes if he doesn't sound hysterical and see if he gets himself back to sleep. (not that I think it matters but my dd is exclusively breastfed) I actually think this is the easiest age to use a mild form of cio before they are old enough to really know that they want you.
Emily mom of Charlie born 11/02 and Zoe born 9/05

[Melanie]

I liked the No Cry Sleep Solution. I wouldn't listen to your ped. a bit about this. Your baby is SO YOUNG!

[psophia17]

We did CIO at about 4 months...but it had nothing to do with feedings, it had to do with bedtime. After his 9pm (or thereabouts) feeding, if we tried to put him into his crib without us also going to bed (we shared a room) he'd cry and cry and cry. So I ended up holding him for another few hours, and that got old. So we went to a modified CIO.

I would BF DS, he'd fall asleep, then we'd put him in the crib. First night, he cried for about an hour. The next night, only 45 minutes, then 20, then 10, then not at all. At first we did some checking on him, but it would disturb him and so we stopped, we just left the door cracked.

When we went to bed around midnight, I'd do a dreamfeed, and then usually he'd wake up for 5am, and spend the next couple of hours in bed with us. It worked so well - and because I was pre-empting his being hungry with the dream feed, he got used to not waking up because he was hungry. I'm not sure if actually made a difference, since all babies are different, but DS was sleeping through from 9-5 by the time he was just over 4 months old.

[asha]

One of my neighbors claims she CIO'd her 6 week old son and he was sleep trained in a week. I personally think that was too cruel.

But then I am struggling with a 26month old DS who still does not sleep through the night. So, may be that is better off than my case.

[Judegirl]

"Isn't there a point that this just becomes habitual and DS will cry b/c he knows I will come in to hold him?"

Yes, there might be. I doubt it's at 4 months old. But I have to ask - are you saying that you want him to learn that if he's crying for you, you *won't* come and hold him?

I agree that he's far too young. I think a 4-month old baby needs to learn that he's not alone in the world and that when he's upset or afraid or just downright uncomfortable, someone will come and make it better. Heaven knows that won't be the case for very long.

But I'll admit that my kid was nightwaking until she was nearly 20 months old. ;)

Good luck...I know how rough the sleep deprivation is!

Jude

[boogiemom]

I had this same issue with DS1. I felt that he wasn't really hungry at his middle of the night feeding. It seemed like it had become more of a "habit". I decided to "test" him one night by just giving him his pacifier if he woke during the night to see if he was just having trouble getting himself back to sleep. The very night that we were going to try this he started sleeping all the way thru the night. I think that your mommy instincts will tell you when to try to eliminate that night-time feeding. FWIW, my son was actually younger than yours at that time.

My DS2 was sleeping thru the night by 2 months of age. He was BF also. So, it really varies widely as to when a baby is ready. I've found that lactation consultants will tell you to nurse regardless of the situation. Mine actually wanted me to start waking DS1 in the middle of the night to nurse! My other option was to set my alarm and get up to pump in the middle of the night. I don't think so.....

Also, I would let him fuss for a minute or two to see if he will go back to sleep on his own. My son's both would fuss a bit occasionally if they woke up but would then go back to sleep. If he's really crying then I'd go in or if you can tell that he's really needing something. You'll learn to tell the difference.

I do remember someone telling me that a somewhat common "rule of thumb" for deciding if a baby was able to sleep thru without needing a feeding is that you can let them sleep thru once they reach 12 lbs. I don't know what the significance is of that weight but I did notice that both my boys starting sleeping thru at approx. that weight. That could just be a coincidence.

Good Luck and I hope you get some much-needed rest soon!

[jillc]

Hi,

This is all exactly what I would have said, too. I couldn't do any type of CIO at 4 months. I just couldn't.

We had to do some CIO at about 8 months b/c DD kept waking shortly after being put into her crib & would cry for us about every 10 min for an hour or so. That was tough, but after a couple 20 min CIO sessions, it worked. Don't know what caused her strange sleep pattern for those couple of weeks.

Other than that, I have always gone to her when she wakes crying & doesn't settle after a few minutes.

Still waking once most nights at 22 months, though, I'll admit. But after 5 min of cuddling, she's a happy camper going back to bed & sleeping until 8:30 every morning. :)

[erosenst]

Just to support the "less popular" view here. I do think that babies learn to wake for the cuddling/comfort, and that that's not good for either of you on a routine basis. (Assuming he's healthy, not teething, etc.) I'm a big believer in CIO, although four months likely is early to do a real version. However, we started letting Abby "fuss it out" at that point. She had made it 10 hours on several occasions, so we knew she could go longer than four or five! If she was just fussing, we'd give her a few minutes. Even if she was crying, DH would go in first and see if a paci would placate her - as soon as she smelled me, she would want the boob, even if that's not what she originally woke up for. She did have a few growth spurts where she meant she wanted to eat - and I did feed her then. Once the growth spurt was over, she reverted to her good sleeping habits.

FWIW - if you're going to do CIO, I do think it's easier to do it "sooner" rather than later, although "sooner" is still pretty relatively. I would definitely not start much later than 9 months - my friends who have done it later are still glad they did - but it was harder than most of my friends who did it earlier.

I also strongly recommend Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child - lots of great advice, and not completely "one size fits all".

Good luck!

[miscelster]

At about 3 1/2 months, my DS on his own dropped the middle of the night feeding. So I ended up nursing him right around 11/11:30pm (it was a dream feed for him), right before I went to bed, and he would wake around 6am. THat lasted for about three weeks, and then at about 4 months, he started waking up between 1-3am and wouldn't sleep until about 6am. At this point, there were two things that made me realize his crying was habitual, and not hunger - he stopped crying even if it was my husband going to get him and not bringing DS to me(which DH did on the weekends so that I could get some sleep); and when I tried to nurse him, he refused, or would nurse for about a minute and come off. He basically just wanted us to hold him - and he would literally stare at us in the dark for hours at a time, every single night.
So, we did the CIO, for all of our sakes, because no one, including DS, was getting any sleep. I did it because we had gone through weeks of not sleeping for hours at night, and no nursing was going on anyways. Within three nights, he was back to the normal dreamfeed at 11pm, waking about 6-7am.

RE: CIO for naps, I tried it a few times, but it never worked. It wasn't until his night sleeping was really down that he started really napping well.

Hope you all are able to feel rested soon!

[smilequeen]

Yeah, I try to stay out of these things because I know how horrible sleep deprivation can be and I can't really blame someone for trying if they are miserably sleep deprived.

But I feel a lot like Jude. Only difference is my no CIO child caught on pretty early, he started sleeping through between 10-11 months. I count myself lucky for that now even if I did almost lose my mind a few times.

To me, when a baby, especially one that young, cries they need something...I don't care if it's just a cuddle or if it's habitual (which I just don't think it is personally). My baby needed me, he got me (or DH). I would have let him fuss for a few minutes to settle, but he never did that (until he was about 9 months old)...he would just cry.

And the weight thing, I just don't buy that. My son was 13 lbs at 6 weeks old. That's awfully young to expect him to go through the night without eating just because he was heavy. He ate at night until he started sleeping through.

[8isenough]

We did not ever CIO so I do not have any advice to give to you. I breastfed all children and Ansley still feeds once or twice a day. If it's any consolation, I know how hard it is. It is exhausting. But it does NOT last forever. Some babes take a month to figure out the sleep/wake cycles and some take years. Half my kids were horrible sleepers and the other half will still take a nap if I suggest it. Please hang in there. You will make the best decision for your family. Sometimes one needs to take advice from an outsider with a grain of salt. It's easy for your ped to say...he doesn't have to experience it.

Sterling