Reader Poll #1: Magic Spells and Mothers in Law

[alandenisefields]

Hi folks: As promised, today we launch a series of reader polls on topics that will appear in our new book, Toddler 411 (due out this fall).

Today's topic is a biggie: Mothers and Mothers in Law!

We want to learn all your tricks, advice and magic spells when it comes to dealing with your mom and MIL!

Specifically, when the grandparents are your toddlers' caretakers, how do you convince your mom or MIL to follow your wishes when it comes to parenting. What worked? What didn't?

Please post your thoughts here. Or if you prefer, email us at [email protected]. The best responses will appear in our book, with your name cloaked to conceal your identity (of course!).

Thanks in advance!
Alan & Denise Fields
authors, BABY BARGAINS * BABY 411

[jamsmu]

I'll start.

One gripe about my MIL (and I have many...) that DH and I have "cured" is clothing buying. Everytime she comes, she brings clothing for the kids that are too small, out of season, ugly, cheap...basically, clothing the kids will never wear. She giggles when the unwrap it and says, "I just couldn't resist --it was so cute!" or something along those lines. PLUS she cuts off the tags before giving the gift and NEVER includes a gift receipt.

The cure? Before each holiday, we make sure we talk to her about the boys' lists. She always asks what size they're wearing. And we always give the same response: C's in a size ___ and W is in a size ___, but they don't need anything! Their drawers are overflowing with hand-me-downs from ______ (fill in the blank: neighbors, cousins, twins... it varies each time.)

While we still get the clothing that goes directly in the charitble contributions box, we've received a lot less since then.

[cmdunn1972]

My Mom and MIL have been great, but even then things still come up on occasion. I've found that it helps be both direct and confident. However, I'm also not afraid to ask their advice if I don't know something. Parenting styles (and baby books) have changed over the years, but I respect their experience and wisdom.

I also try not to sweat the small stuff. Both my parents and my ILs live out of town and don't see DS as often as they would like, so I let them get away with more. If they deviate slightly from the way I would do things, then (so long as it's not safetly-related) I'm fine with it. Interestingly, my Mom taught me to pick my battles!

[ChefGirl]

My Mom is wonderful (maybe I'm bias). They live out of town and generally don't know what to shop for our kids. So, they usually give us cash to get clothes or whatever for the kids. But the clothes they did end up getting for our kids are pretty good so far. When in doubt, I have told them to error on the larger size and always get a gift receipt.

My MIL is a totally different story. Gift receipt is a foreign word to her. She is the tackiest person I know. She normally gets the cheap and ugly clothes. Like the PP, things that I would never put my kids in. I don't mind clearance sales stuff, but we are talking darn ugly clothes. She also gets them age inappropriate toys as well. Like the dollar store plastic teethers. Just things I would never get for my kids. Doesn't she know there is a safety concern here. Ugh! Oh, on top of everthing, she always leave the price tag on the gifts as if we need to know how much she spent!? Ugh! It runs in the family. My SIL is the same way. She thinks Christmas shopping is a chore! Imagine that~

There is NO cure for my MIL. I guess this should be in the bitching session. Anyway, we have basically told her that I am very particular about the kids' clothes and that she should stop wasting her $$. But with Christmas and kids' birthdays, we have lists for them. How difficult could it be to take our lists (mind you, this is a list with store name and website address and pricing information) to the store and get it. Oh no, my DH has to take her to the toy store to physically get the toy with her! You guys should see our Christmas lists. It is as detail as it can be. The list includes all the necessary information except for our credit card numbers. Anyway, the cure for my MIL is take her personally shopping for toys for the kids. And, just refuse to wear her ugly cloth purchases. She eventually gets the hint that her taste is just ugh!!

[ribbit1019]

I have DH tell MIL, LOL! A couple of times I have asked nicely and it never works. If someone has a trick I would love to know.

T.V., napping in a swing at 19 months, and sugar/junk food consumption are major issues. MIL does what she wants when we aren't there. Cheese Puff/Chocolate stains on a couple of DD shirts have given her away on the junk food as well as residual punch in her straw cups and chocolate milk getting sent home. DH and I have asked her to stop feeding DD junk/sugar and she agress with us and then keeps doing it. A couple of times her answer to our requests has been "We can't hide her from sugar forever." TV she also won't budge, she sees nothing wrong with keeping the T.V. on all day so DD and DN have their fill of Nick and Noggin for eight-ten hours a day. DD naps in a infant swing for her nap everyday. It makes napping on other days a battle and though we have asked her to stop putting DD in the swing she continues to do and sees it as the only way to get DD to nap for her. She is with MIL 4 days a week.

My mom is a different story, DD's T.V. is limited to an hour while at her house every Monday and she only eats the food I pack her. They do give her ice cream, but honor my request that she not get more than a 1/4 cup while she is visiting. She has never napped in the swing over there. My mom listens surprisingly well to what I ask, but we are close and I think she listens to my gripes about MIL and tries her darndest to do the opposite!

Christy
Maddy born 6/09/04
http://lilypie.com/baby2/040609/3/4/0/-5/.png

Little Man due 3/02/06
http://bd.lilypie.com/cKLom4/.png
Co-Owner Ribbit Baby

Frogs are lucky, they eat what bugs them.

[kboyle]

Let me start with saying that I live within 3, count em' 3 MINUTES away from my parents AND my MIL!!! So we do see them both quite a bit.

Like ChefGirl, maybe I'm biased because she is my mother, but my mom is great with my DSs. But I alway rant about what MIL did/didn't do so she knows what drives me nuts from hearing my stories. Don't get me wrong, MIL is also great with DSs. I never speak up, but it does drive me insane the way she feeds DS1. I'll drop him off and mention that he's been really picky about what he eats so don't expect much, or that he had a HUGE breakfast/lunch, so if he picks at the next meal, don't worry about it. When I pick him up I always ask how he ate and her reply is ALWAYS...GREAT!!! And then she'll proceed in telling me he polished off 1 snack pack chocolate pudding, a bowl full of pretzels, a handful of M&Ms, 2, oh yeah, 2 containers of CANNED fruit...oh the list could go on forever!! I'll give DS canned fruit if there is no fresh avail, which is really rare since I give DS a whole fruit with each meal (big fruit eater) but I drain and rinse the corn syrup before I give it to him. MIL will give him canned, syrupy fruit cocktail when there is a FRESH banana sitting on the counter. I used to ALWAYS pack a fruit for each meal and 1 yogurt everytime she watched him, but it always ended up getting sent back home, so I gave up the fight. It's not gonna kill him, but man oh man does it drive me batty.

Anyway, I always leave notes when they watch the kiddos. How much med to give (they both get nervous about under/over dosing them), I'll throw in a DVD or 2 for when they do watch TV, all-in-all they are pretty great. Not many mom's can say it but I'm sooo greatful to live within minutes from both of our families. They are there in a pinch when we need them and we have a short ride home if they get to be too much.

[kijip]

There are tons of threads on MIL problems and tricks. You might find a mine of information by searching both the lounge and the bitching forum!

[Melanie]

Nod, Smile, Say 'Thank you,' then do it your way anyhow.

[AngelaS]

Our response to every stupid, unsafe, or dated bit of parenting advice we get from the inlaws is "Oh, there's an idea" (while inside we're thinking "Like hell we will!". They think we'll actually consider their advice and we know they're clueless, but no one's feelings are hurt. :D

[mudder17]

Well, my poor MIL passed away on the day we (and she) found out we were pregnant with DD, so we don't have any issues there. But even if she were around, I know we wouldn't have any problems--she was one of the best MIL's ever and I had the good fortune to be her DIL for 10 years. In any case FIL and my parents live very far away, so it's not really an issue. My mother has been actually pretty good about not interfering, although she does offer her opinion on occasions. If she has a good point (I try to really listen to what she's suggesting to see if it has merit), then I'll say, "Yes, that makes sense and we're working towards that." If I totally disagree with it, I'll say, "Well, her pediatrician said so and so and I happen to agree," and that's usually the end of it. This worked really well when DD was a newborn/infant as well. :) As for gifts...well, she usually gets Kaya clothing and has never given her toys, and her taste in clothing is actually pretty good. In fact, we've sort of spread the word so that generally people give Kaya clothes (and they'll ask us ahead of time about sizing) so that we've rarely had to buy clothing for Kaya since she was a newborn. In any case, it saves us having to worry about the noisy, useless, "drive the parents crazy" toys. :)




Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_4_Kaya+is.png
Kaya's a cousin! 10/1/05, 5lb13oz

[KBecks]

I am blessed with a wonderful mother-in-law who provides free care for my son one day a week while I work.

She's great... so I only give instructions about things that are vitally important -- such as -- the right medicine dosages, etc. I have talked about my preferences, such as limited TV and sweets... But I do feel that Grandma's house is a special place for our son to visit, and the rules are not so important so long as he is safe and loved there.

(It might be more difficult if DS was cared for by Grandma more than 1 day a week, but I'm easygoing and don't have a lot of parenting "rules" anyway.)

I was concerned when MIL purchased a walker to use, but their stairs are childproofed with a very good gate (DS did fine, he enjoyed it a lot, and only used it for a couple months.) I did let MIL know I wanted DS to not spend a lot of time in the walker and that worked out too.

DS has had a few minor bumps and scratches at Grandma's, which were very difficult and emotional for me in the beginning, but with experience I've come to realize that this is just happens sometimes with children.

Lastly, I remember that MIL successfully raised 3 great kids, and so she's very qualified to handle DS once in a while.

(I'd advise that women evaluate their future in-laws when they are deciding whether to marry! My in-laws scored bonus points for DH.)

[Zana]

Personally, the biggest thing I can think off is - to pick your battles. DH is very close to his family and they are very nice people, similarly I am very close to mine - so it was important not to hurt our parents. Too much of anything can always get to anyone and goes double when its well-meaning parents!!

Both our parents are out of the country (so in the long term not much of an issue) but my mom lived with us and looked after DS for the first 6 mths and my ILs did the same for the next 6. Our (DH and mine) priority was to make sure that our ideas/rules were followed most of the time...but if there were deviations on their part, that were non-life threatening or not repeated too often, we would let them slide. We tried to always be very polite/diplomatic when explaining things and tried to understand where they are coming from (lots of cultural issues to deal with too). Of course there were times when after a long days work, I really didnt need to hear how... MIL brought up 4 children without any help...MIL gave her kids XXX and they turned out fine...etc.etc. But since they really meant well, would never intentionally hurt DS and by and large were good about following our instructions, I just ignored them and vented in private to DH if necessary.

[kdeunc]

I am very fortunate that both my parents and my in-laws follow our wishes pretty well. Once we got over the "over-buying" of toys,etc. with the first child with my MIL we have done great. Both sets of grandparents really do follow our rules when they have the kids. I have also learned that a big bowl of icecream with Nana probably will not hurt a 3-year old and it makes both him and Nana very happy!! My poor sister on the other hand has a FIL who will not follow any of her wishes! He completely disregards what she says about food, bedtime, manners, etc. After a visit to Papa's house my nephew drives her crazy for several days until she "deprograms" him.

[chiqanita]

MIL several states away and elderly (80s). Has visited and we've been there, she held the twins quite a bit and enjoys them a lot. She does not offer advice unless requested, at least not to me.

My mom is even further away. She did come out when I was pregnant, on bedrest and after the twins arrived (about 6 months). She is great and her help was needed. When she is here she does whatever it is that I need her to do. She usually agrees with me or keeps her opinions to herself. Which I also appreciate. Tricks or magic spells, I wouldn't call them that what I would say is that I am pretty straightforward. If she or anyone else for that matter gets 'pushy' or obnoxious with their advice/comments I let them know that I do what I know and I'm doing my best.

I know my mom and MIL love their youngest grandsons and I try to keep that in mind. Afterall, they successfully raised 4 children each.

[maestramommy]

Both my mother and MIL are great. When DD was born first my mom came out for 3 weeks. She basically cooked for me the whole time, so I would eat foods that would help my recovery and produce milk. Nice eh? Then my MIL came out for 2 weeks. She also cooked practically every meal and also helped with DD. Actually I feel rather lucky as MIL is very loving, and crazy about DD. She lives on the opposite coast so hasn't seen her since birth, so when there are philosophical disagreements I usually just "nod" and say "hmm! Okay." At the beginning it was a little hard because she wanted to hold DD all the time. After a while I felt like I had to ask to hold my own daughter :-). But since she lives so far away I figure when we're together it's her time. And she would NEVER do anything that I consider remotely questionable/harmful. My own mom lives close enough for a day trip, and since she IS my mom I trust her completely. Sometimes she raises her eyebrows over things like DD crying/screaming for long time when we're in the battle of the bottle (another thread!), but for the most part she lets me do what I need to do.

[kharden]

I've always found that "A spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down." I usually precede any comment or suggestion with a complement. Such as "You really did a great job with your son (Important: Never say "Buuuttt"). Or I just dive right in and say things like "I know you like to let Nicholas have special treats at your house, which is nice of you, but it's important to me that his sugar intake be limited. I'm sure you can respect that." If she says that she doesn't think it'll harm him, I'll follow up firmly with a simple "I do." My strategy is to be friendly and respectful with the attitude of expecting the same. It's only a competition if there's a winner and a loser, so I try very hard to keep that in perspective and not make her feel like she's doing anything "wrong".

[Emmas Mom]

I have a wonderful MIL, we live with her in fact. That being said I think the most important thing was to let her (and everyone else for that matter) know from day one that the bottom line is this:

My children, my rules.

Of course, there's always exceptions & I welcome my MIL's input & suggestions but she knows (and is very respectful) that my husband & I have the final say. As far as buying things for our DD's...well that's another story. (insert rolleyes smilie) Fortunately, she usually gives receipts & doesn't mind if we exchange things. The worst is when she gets things at garage sales & I just think they're SO ugly & worn. Sometimes you just have to wonder what they're thinking!

[lizajane]

i have a new favorite saying that i coined myself:

"there is nothing like having a second child to foster your relationship with your mother in law."

if you are about to have your first child, there is no way i can convince you that you will eventually change your mind about "help" from your mother in law. but i believe it is highly likely that you will change your mind upon the birth of your second. i can't get enough of my mother in law visiting. she will take over with the kids- making their food, cleaning it up, dressing them, playing with them, taking them on walks, reading to them... and i can do WHATEVER i want while she is here. the fact of the matter is when you have two kids, you NEED help. with one, you may think you can do it all. you may be CERTAIN that you can do it all and you should do it all. but once that second kiddo arrives and chaos breaks out... put mother in law on speed dial and praise her all you can for coming to the rescue whenever you call. second to their parents (you!!) no one loves your children like their grandmothers.

[Dcclerk]

Everyone knows I am a researcher. I talk a lot about what I read and what I think about things. I also talk a lot about what **I** am planning on doing and what I haven't liked that I did, and why. It is rare that I speak directly to them about things that they are doing, because they are really great about observing us, listening to us, and trying to follow our wishes.

I'm really fortunate, I think. From the get-go, both sides have acknowledged that we are the parents and that they follow our leads. They know that we take the job of being parents very seriously, and that we are trying our very best. They respect that, and try to follow in kind. Considering my in-laws watch my kids 2 days a week (and it used to be 5 before I went part-time), I couldn't ask for a better situation.

[g-mama]

Liza - I am so with you! I began to really appreciate my MIL when our second ds was born and cherish every moment she can give me now that we have three. I don't even care what she lets them do or what she lets them eat while she is here. I am just glad to have the number of kids I'm responsible lessened by one or two! And they know that I will not let them eat all kinds of junk like she may, they know there's a difference between grandma and mom. They enjoy having her here and getting extra attention and I want to foster a good relationship between them.


~Kristen

Paolo 11-00
Benjamin 8-03
Marco 12-05

[jasabo]

My IL's are great - they love the boys and have so much fun with them, and my boys love spending time with them.....but.....(yes, there had to be a "but" following that statement)....they don't necessarily do things the way I do. For example - candy. I give the boys candy occasionally - usually when I'm trying to bribe them to be quiet at Target (which, before I had kids, I always swore I'd never do..."Bribe my kids with candy?!? I'll NEVER do that!!"). My MIL, however, is a walking candy machine - her purse must have some magic ability to automatically refill itself with candy whenever her supply gets low. She introduced my boys to Crabby Patties the last time they came to visit. I had never heard of them before and was a little freaked/disgusted/oddly intrigued when she asked the boys if they wanted one. Apprently they're part of the huge Sponge Bob conglomerate - they're kind of sugar covered gummy-like hamburger shaped things. I'm personally a big fan of gummy products - bears, worms, fish - you name it, if it's gummy, I'll eat it. But even I didn't want to partake in the Crabby Patty experience. Needless to say, my boys loved them and have developed a Crabby Patty addiction and it usually takes us about a week to "detox" them of all the sugar after a visit with the IL's.

However, I decided that having grandparents in my kids' lives is a blessing that many kids don't get to experience. Grandparents SHOULD spoil their grandkids...that's what they do. Maybe it's because my kids only see their grandparents a few times a year - if they were around all the time, I would probably think differently. But I usually just pick my battles, bite my tongue and let the grandparents have their fun. If they want to give my kids Crabby Patties for dinner - have at it. As long as THEY'RE the ones who stay up with them until midnight while they bounce off the walls from their sugar high, I don't mind. Life is short - we should all experience a grandparent-induced Crabby Patty high once or twice in our lives ;)

One other thing I've done in the past is write what I refer to as a User's Manual - it's a quick rundown of what their gibberish means ("meme" = binkie), what they like to take to bed with them (wubbies, etc.), general nap times, foods they like, etc. I do this mostly to make it easier for the grandparents - so they don't have to guess what the kids want when they're screaming for their "meme!!!!!!" at the top of their lungs. I then hand the Manual over to the grandparents with the understanding that a majority of the instructions I've written won't be followed, which is ok as long as the kids are happy and healthy when I pick them up.

Lisa - mom to 2 1/2 yr old twin boys

[Sarah1]

I'm fortunate to have a very respectful MIL.

I like my kids to sleep and eat at the right times. I really don't care about anything else. My MIL knows those are my bugaboos and she follows whatever schedule I leave for her. I always write down when the kids need to be fed and what time they need to sleep.

[chrissyhowie]

My father and DH's mother are the head-strong grandparents in our family that commit the typical grandparent woes :).

After months of trying to look the other way, but finally catching my father redhanded specifically doing something we had asked him not to do, I yelled, "You are just like my mother-in-law! Neither of you listen to what we ask, and I can't trust that you don't do things behind our backs!" I'm sure some argument ensued, but it was not a major event.

He never mentioned that conversation again, but I noticed a DRAMATIC improvement in my dad's actions after that. He really did start to respect our wishes. I guess being compared to my mother-in-law was something he really didn't like.

Won't work for every family, but certainly worked for ours :).

[firstbaby]

My mom and MIL each watch DS one day a week. It has been a great experience for them and for my son to have regular interaction and form a close bond with his grandmothers. And FIL has now started to stick around the house on the days DS comes to visit so they have a really neat relationship as well.

It has been hard at times to celebrate the grandparent relationship and the caretaker arrangement. I *know* my mom rolls her eyes behind our backs about how rigid we are with DS's schedule but for the most part she sticks to it. Both do a good job of following our eating preferences for him, etc. I shared a lot of our wishes when DS was little and we weren't crossing some of the bridges you cross later (We aren't going to let DS have sweets for a while because of the nutrition research out there, limited TV exposure, etc) so I think that prevented any "surprises" of what we would be okay with and not.

When we have had "issues" I've addressed it in one of two ways. For example, one year MIL did sneak DS a bite of pumpkin pie at Thanksgiving. I know it wasn't malicious but she wasn't thinking about it. I pointed out that we need to know EVERYTHING he's eating so that if he has a reaction, we know what it could be. So, in that way we illustrate a necessity to respect our wishes. Or, if I am feeling like there is not a nice way of addressing something, I will sometimes tell a story of a "friend's" mother or MIL that has been doing the behavior we are not happy about and how my "friend" is really unhappy about it.

But, we would not give up DS's day with each of the grandmothers and are very lucky that we all have them in our lives!

[boogiemom]

I think that if you want to get to make the rules when your children are with anyone, you have to be able to enforce them in some way. For me, I will never put myself in a position where I NEED them to take care of my child on a regular basis. This way if I find out that my rules aren't being followed, I can just have someone else care for my child when needed for awhile. It seems that many grandparents who are used as a regular "daycare provider" do choose to do things their way because they know that the parent is basically "stuck". I've seen this with a couple of friends and they get very upset but the grandparent knows that they won't take the child elsewhere so......

So, for me, my mom and MIL follow my wishes because if they choose not to, then they don't get to care for my children. Also, I let them know that my kids do better when they stick to a routine and everyone will be happier if the kids are happy.

[JTsMom]

I think that a lot of the battles are a result of moms/MILs feeling guilty and insecure about how they parented their own kids. Motherhood is SO competitive, and I think a lot of times we can forget there is more than 1 good way to do something. Everyone wants to feel like what they did/do for their kids is THE WAY.


There are 2 major issues I have battled over with my mom. The first was breastfeeding. I think she has a lot of guilt about not breastfeeding us, and it's hard for her to admit that, so she pushes formula use, and picks at any little thing she can about my choice to breastfeed Jason.

The other issue was starting solids early. Rather than acknowledge that maybe medical opinions have changed over the past 30 years- because that would be admitting that the way she did things maybe wasn't really the best- she ridicules my waiting until he was 6 months to start solids.

The best way I have found to nip the arguments in the bud was to tell her I think that she was a great mom whenever one of these issues crop up, and then phrase my opinion in a way that shows her that I know she did things based on the info she had at that time. I also try to ask her opinion on other issues from time to time, which kind of gives her an ego boost, kwim?

Another little nugget of wisdom was passed on to me here:

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=18&topic_id=22712&mesg_id=22712&listing_type=search

The response I'm referring to references a piece called Pass The Bean Dip.

Alan and Denise- best of luck with the book. I love Baby Bargains and recommend it to friends and even strangers!

[Fairy]

I have found parent and in-law care for our son a real dichotomy and mixed blessing. I was very fortunate to have a grandmother that I could not get enough of and miss to this day. I want that for my son so much, and I am so happy and grateful that he's getting that special, loving relationship from my mom and dad. He adores them to no end. However, now that I am, indeed, the parent and not the child, I have a whole new perspective and often wonder how we all made it.

My parents take very good care of my son and love him, no question. However, there are things we tell them, ask them, unmistakably write out for them -- next we'll be trying pictograms! -- that goes in one ear and out the other because they don't have an active understanding of it from when they went through it. It's the "we all did XYZ back then, and you all turned out just fine!" logic. Deep down they know they're wrong, but admitting it is admitting that they did the wrong thing for us way back when all they had was Dr. Spock.

That's-Not-How-We-Did-It Syndrome is a very real thing, all of us with living parents and ILs are gonna go through it, especially for us in our mid-to-late 30's who were born in the '60s and early '70s when things were so SO different than they are today. Yes alot of things are really annoying, but much of this stuff can be quite serious when you get beyond the ugly clothes and unwanted gifts. Things like food allergies, age-appropriate toys, organic foods, and even the diaper pail are things they just can't wrap their brains around. It's not that they defy us, they just plain forget after we've told them and told them, because it's foreign to them. For me, telling my folks "no, please do it this way" courts a fine line between respecting my parents and appearing not to. My MIL is worse, because half the time she doesn't even believe us, like that food allergies are real and that honey is blacklisted food for babies. She's less of an issue cuz we about never see her.

Unfortunately, I think there is no magic bullet here. Each family dynamic is different and what works for one family will cause a meltdown in another. For us, here's our approach:

* The ugly clothes (and, oh, can they be ugly) and unwanted, unneeded stuff (ok, utter crap) is easy. It's the thought that counts, and we simply don't use them or will put something on him one time when he's seeing them to make them feel good. Easy for us to do, and out it goes, didn't cost us a thing.

* If there's a danger to our DS, then it gets discussed, period. Our folks don't have to like it, but they have to hear it, and it's very difficult, but we pick these battles when they truly will make a negative impact on our DS. Sometimes this includes TV, sometimes it includes food, always it includes what's ultimately best for him.

* The grandparent relationship is critical to us, and if that means I'm sacrificing something by making my mother angry because I've told her she's doing something "wrong" in her mind, then that's worth it for me to ensure that my son is getting the proper care from them while protecting the grandparent relationship with my DS.

* The proof is in the pudding. It's insanely helpful for us when we reference studies or actually show them articles that discuss this stuff. Somehow, showing them documentation and that we're not just blowing smoke really seems to do the trick.

The diaper pail, however, is a lost cause :-)