Infant Swimming Research vs. Safe Start

[randomkid]

Since we live in Florida, I definitely plan to take DD to survival swimming lessons, esp. since many of our neighbors have pools. There are always stories on the news of near drownings/drownings in the many lakes, ponds, canals and pools we have around here. And it isn't always parents who are neglectful. You know how quickly one can get away, and no matter how closely you think you will watch them, unexpected things happen all the time. Just this week a 4yo boy was found in a river by his grandmother. He was missing for a few minutes, but it sounds like she was looking for him the whole time. It just took that long for her to find him. This scares me so much, esp since DD is very fast and into everything - quite the active little thing, she is!

So anyway, do any of you have experience with these programs and which would you recommend? What are the differences in them?

Thanks for your kind input,

[jerseygirl07067]

Kim, DH and I were just having this discussion tonight!! I'll have to fill you in on more of the specifics when I see you, but we were at at superbowl party tonight and they people having the party have a pool, and a 2 1/2 year old who cannot swim. Not only was the sliding glass door open the whole time, but the father, who was supposed to be watching the kid, while his wife was inside in the kitchen, was going about his business, leaving him out there ALONE for several minutes. Watching the whole thing made me really nervous. I finally asked him if it bothered him that his kid was outside playing right at the edge of the pool. He said no, as if he were trying to prove some point.

They live in an expensive house, yet his wife says he is too cheap to put up a pool gate and pay for swimming lessons. It has been a major source of disagreement between them. So idiot, at least watch your kid if you don't want to put up a gate or close the darn door!!! I think he is really asking for troublem to the point where I am concerned for this little boy's life. His wife told me that earlier this week the 2 1/2 year old fell in the pool. I seriously want to have a talk with her but don't want to overstep my boundaries as I know she is well aware of his irresponsiblity...sigh..

I have lost total respect for this person. DH agrees too.

So yes, I would like to know what the difference is between the two also. I know a few moms who did the program at the Y which I think is Safe Start and they were very happy with it.

There is a lady who lives on the west side of town who gives survival lessons and she supposedly attracts clients all over town due to her reputation. I actually have her number and was going to call her and talk to her about who she recommends on our side of town.

Marcy

[karolyp]

Yikes!!! That's a very scary situation with that little girl. I have known 2 people that have had their children drown, very sad indeed. We have a pool with a gate, so I do feel somewhat safe.

But I did get a card about the Y's Safe Start program in the mail last week. I am going to call and get more info, but thought I'd pass along their # which is 407-644-3606.

I also have a friend who knows an instructor who lives on the east side of town...I'll get her # if you want.

[jesseandgrace]

Marcy, that is absolutely terrible. I think you should print out all kinds of statistics and tragic stories from thge internet, and put it in their mailbox.

I don't know anything about the specifics of these lessons, but I just wanted to share what I've heard about them. DH sat next to a guy flying down to Florida once, and the guy had his 2 year old in one of these classes. It sounds like it is well worth it. He said it was really hard to go see sometimes, that he had to go instead of his wife. He said that they pushed the kids in, threw a wet shirt at their head and had them fall in, etc. I don't know if this program was more extreme, but it sounds like it would work well. He said his 2 year old was able to get out of the water and basically save himself by the end. I'm sure this was scary for the kids, but much better than any alternative.

Even though we are not around any water my 2 year old will start swimming lessons in a few months and even if she doesn't like it, she will go until she can swim on her own. I think she will end up loving it, but for me it is not a sport, it is a safety issue, and I will take her screaming and crying if I have to. Can you see that I feel strongly about this, LOL?

[brittone2]

Here's a link that I thought was interesting:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/868

[lilycat88]

Very seldom do I come out so strongly for or against any issue as I will on swimming lessons for kids. So, fair warning, I’m stepping up on my soapbox now. I hope I don’t offend anyone. I’m speaking in generalities about parents, not specifically about something that any of you would do.

I’ve been teaching swimming lessons (age 6mo – adult) and lifeguard training to varying degrees since I was 15 years old (over 20 years now). I’ve been involved in good programs, average programs, and bad programs. I’ve taught at small town community pools where there wasn’t a real “curriculum�, I’ve taught for the YMCA, and I’ve taught for the Indiana University Natatorium. What you will find is like most things, the most fabulous instructional program is entirely dependent upon the skills and philosophy of the instructors.

I HATE HATE HATE the terms “survival training�, “drownproofing�, etc. when referencing swimming lessons for very young children. I know some people will disagree but in *my* experience, those terms have no place in reference to swimming lessons at all for children under the age of 5. Yes, I have had a few 2 year olds who could “swim� for quite a distance and many 2 year olds who could get back to the side of the pool when jumping in. In no way did I ever equate this with any type of survival training. I think it is wrong to approach any type of swimming lesson with a toddler/young child as anything but fun. IF they happen to learn some skills to help them if they accidently fell into the water, that is fabulous. But, I find that many parents that I’ve dealt with have to be cautioned against feeling that their child can now “swim�. No, they can’t swim. In fact, they many times are more comfortable in the water away from mom and dad. If the program hasn’t done a really great job of working with them on the “rules� of being around water, they are a greater danger to themselves. I can’t even count the number of times I’ve had to pull 2-8 year olds out because they jumped right into an unfamiliar pool with water deeper than they were used to because they could touch the bottom of the last pool they were in.

So, yes, I am ardently in favor of swimming lessons for kids starting as young as 6 months. But, the programs, such as the one mentioned above, where the child is put through the ringer all to produce a child who can “save himself� scare the daylights out of me. Yes, kids move fast but if parents spend more time drilling rules such as “no getting near the water when mom/dad aren’t with you� and staying away from dangerous water situations, perhaps the need for “drownproofed� kids would be less. When I am working with a very young child, I will push as hard as the parents want and I think the child can stand without scaring them. But, the most important thing is to never get lulled into a false sense of security after going through swimming lessons.

I live less than 75 feet from a huge retention pond. We have a fence with padlocked gates and DD is never allowed out the door without one of us with her. Despite my background and much to the surprise of everyone who knows me, DD has not been in swimming lessons yet. We will probably try to do a session this summer. Despite my desire that she learn to swim and her love of water, I don’t think she is ready for even a parent/child class.

*Stepping down off my soapbox now*

Jamelin
DD Susanna 6/29/04

[slknight]

I know that Safe Start has come up on the board a few times in the past. Do a search on it and you might turn up some more responses. As a former world-class swimmer, I am very adamantly opposed to it for many of the same reasons as lilycat (Jamelin). A good friend of mine who was also a world-class swimmer put her daughter in Safe Start for one lesson and was so disgusted by it that she demanded her money back.

[jesseandgrace]

I don't disagree with many of the points you guys make, and if I were wanting my child to learn how to swim I wouldn't ever do those type of lessons, but it isn't for swimming, it is for safety. As is, we don't have bodies of water around us enough to do this type of thing, so I wouldn't do it because of the negative side to it. However, if I lived in a place with water, pools, everywhere I would. On the other hand I've never researched it, so maybe more research would change my mind.

I was told that this saves many lives, is that not true? I also come from a swimming background, but I've separated the two in my mind. Yes, they have water in common, but these are not lessons to teach kids to swim, they are lessons to teach kids to survive in the event that they fall in. It wouldn't make me any less attentive though, it is certainly no replacement for watching the child! I'm sure there is a down side, but it would have to be pretty big when weighed against my child being able to save himself/herself in the event of an accident in water. But, I guess this is all easy for me to say since I don't have to even consider this stuff, I don't even think they offer it around here.

[jerseygirl07067]

Jamelin,

I totally agree with your point of view. I have thought the same things, like is Sammy going to be MORE likely to go in the water since she is more comfortable around water, etc. And I definitely don't feel that we have a false sense of security sending her as there is no substitution for proper adult supervision, though I know people that have that incorrect mindset.

However, I don't take my eye off Sammy when she is with me, especially when we are around water. However, I can't control what goes on when I am not there. DH is with her if I am not home, or there are instances when DH's sister watches her (she has a pool) or she has a babysitter. The media in my area are always covering stories where even under the best situations, something happens. Humans are not perfect, and accidents can happen. I'm not making excuses, but all it takes is a split second to get distracted, even under the best intentions. That is where my fear lies. Life in florida revolves around pools and many places where we go (friends, family, etc) have pools. They may have older children who use the pool, so to expect them to deadbolt the door for our sake is not always realistic, as it's our responsibility. I am ultra paranoid, and want to do this as an extra, extra precaution.

I was looking into the lessons more for the remote possiblity that a freak accident should occur. I have worked in rehab units and seen many near drowning victims...it is horrible. It has become one of my biggest fears as a mom.

Marcy

[jerseygirl07067]

Jamelin,

I totally agree with your point of view. I have thought the same things, like is Sammy going to be MORE likely to go in the water since she is more comfortable around water, etc. And I definitely don't feel that we have a false sense of security sending her as there is no substitution for proper adult supervision, though I know people that have that incorrect mindset.

However, I don't take my eye off Sammy when she is with me, especially when we are around water. However, I can't control what goes on when I am not there. DH is with her if I am not home, or there are instances when DH's sister watches her (she has a pool) or she has a babysitter. The media in my area are always covering stories where even under the best situations, something happens. Humans are not perfect, and accidents can happen. I'm not making excuses, but all it takes is a split second to get distracted, even under the best intentions. That is where my fear lies. Life in florida revolves around pools and many places where we go (friends, family, etc) have pools. They may have older children who use the pool, so to expect them to deadbolt the door for our sake is not always realistic, as it's our responsibility. I am ultra paranoid, and want to do this as an extra, extra precaution.

I was looking into the lessons more for the remote possiblity that a freak accident should occur. I have worked in rehab units and seen many near drowning victims...it is horrible. It has become one of my biggest fears as a mom.

Marcy

[jerseygirl07067]

Beth, the link didn't work. Do you have another link? I will check on the AAP site to see if I can pull it up.

found it, is this it? http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/868



Thanks,
Marcy

[brittone2]

It doesn't look like my link above is working now, but
I think the AAP policy statement is that there is no evidence they work. (I don't know how much it has been studied).

Here's a link that talks briefly about the AAP position:
http://parentingmagazine.theparentingchat.com/info/?m=show&id=657

eta:
http://pediatrics.about.com/b/a/2003_06.htm

[o_mom]

Here's a working link...

http://tinyurl.com/dckus

[randomkid]

OK...I really did not make my intentions very clear, I guess. I want to take DD to swimming classes only because there is such an enormous amount of water here in Florida. I don't intend to think she will be going to lessons for "drownproofing" in any way. The responsibility will be on myself and DH (or any other adult caring for her)to watch her closely and make sure she is safe. I take her to in-home daycare and I didn't take her to one person I interviewed because she has a pool without an enclosure. Her response was that she never lets the kids out there. I thought that was a very irresponsible attitude, so I took the responsibility by not leaving her in that woman's care. However, I am a realist and if you live in Florida, you know how far too often these accidents happen. I, like Marcy, am a physical therapist and I know the reality of the brain damage that is caused by near drowning. I have seen it for myself. Not to mention the fear of actual death from drowning or having to take your child off life support because they are braindead.

The reason I posted this question is because I don't want a program that is going to be extreme (i.e. throwing DD into a pool and trying to drown her!). I feel those types of classes would just make her fearful and I think that is even a worse response than being comfortable in the water. I don't think she will be able to swim in the true sense of the word. However, if she can learn to flip onto her back and float, that may give me enough time to find her if something tragic were to happen. The story last week involved a child who was out in the woods or some similar setting with his family. He disappeared and his Grandmother started looking for him immediately - he hadn't been missing for long. The thing is, by the time she found him, he had already been in the water for too long. He was only missing for a total of 5-7 minutes so they don't really know how long he was in the water. That is really not a long period of time, but it takes much less time than that to drown.

This may be difficult for someone to understand who does not live in an area like we do. Everywhere you go, there are lakes, ponds, pools, etc. Accidents happen and trying your best as a parent to protect your child in any way possible is the right thing to do, IMO.

I know DD won't be entirely safe around water, and my hope is that she would never have to use any of the skills she learns in the class. Who knows if it will translate to other situations, but I would rather take the chance that it might, than not even try at all. I believe the AAP makes the statements that they do sometimes to address parents who are not very responsible. Of course they will say these classes are not helpful to keep parents from believing their child is now totally safe and doesn't need their supervision. Parents like myself can be realistic and know that is not the case.

I have a friend who used to teach swimming and she is all about classes that teach the child to move themselves actively in the water. Just pushing the child through the water is passive. I want a program that teaches her to be active and one that is not frightening to her. I don't see any reason to "throw" a child into a pool. If they fall in, that is quite different than being thrown. I'm sure there are more gentle approaches to this and that is what I am looking for.

Thanks for your points of view and info. If anyone does know of a program with a gentle approach, please educate me.

Thanks,

[brittone2]

I definitely understand where you are coming from....I know the mamas here aren't the type to send their kiddos to a class and then assume they don't have to worry about drowning. We don't have a lot of pools in our area, but I can imagine it is scary to be faced with the possibility of drowing every day in a place like FL.

I hope that you can find a class that you like for your DD :)

Just wanted to say that :)

[Mommy_Again]

Here are links to a few past posts. My thoughts are in the first one- but I basically agree with all PPs that fear-based instruction is not effective. It just causes them to freak out and panic when they hit the water. You want them to be calm and natural and not scared of it- because God forbid if they do ever fall in, they will be scared enough as it is.

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=81&topic_id=3041&mode=full

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=197500&mode=full

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=177743&mode=full

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=115918&mode=full

[jd11365]

I did Safestart and LOVED it! Ok, well, let me clarify. After the first lesson, I was sick to my stomach, and couldn't eat, drink or sleep. Kayla was NOT happy. By the third lesson, it was muuuuuch better, and now Kayla LOVES the water. She loved her teacher, and she's amazing and SAFE in the water. I can't recommend the program highly enough, especially for those in Florida where the drowning rate is so high. We live across the street from a pond and have a swail in our backyard that fills with water when it rains...which is often in Florida. I feel so much more comfortable knowing she can get herself out of a dangerous situation. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

[brittone2]

Thanks for doing that Omom. I'm not sure why the link wouldn't work.

THe one I posted I think was from 2003 or 2004 but it basically just reaffirms the statement from 2000 where they said the classes have never been shown to actually reduce the risk of drowning (although again, I have no idea how much this has been studied or if that is just a general CYA recommendation on the part of the AAP, kwim?)

[niccig]

I'm from Australia, back yard pools on every street, legal requirement for all pools to be fully enclosed by a pool fence, swimming lessons taught at many elementary schools, drown prevention commercials airing on TV in the summer, and yes children still drown. Vigilance around water is the only thing that will protect our kids.

I've been taking DS to the YMCA for swimming lessons, not Safestart, since he was 8 months old. For now, it is about DS becoming comfortable in the water and as he gets older, learning how to swim. I've committed to taking him all year round. I don't believe a few sessions over the summer each year is enough. Until he can swim a lap of a pool, we'll have regular lessons. But, it's not just about lessons. It's fun, he loves going to the classes. As children, we were always playing at the local pool and in the swimming club. So, we sometimes go to the pool just to have fun.

Visit a few swimming programmes, talk to the instructors and go with what feels like a best fit for you and what you want DC to learn.

Nicci