Jewish mommas, would you feel okay with this?

[nfowife]

Hi all,
I am thinking that I would like to enroll DD in a mother's day out program for 1-2 days a week starting in the fall (she'll be 18 months at the time). For one, I think the socialization would be good for her and she'd have a lot of fun, and also I am planning to get pg again in the next few months and I know I will need some alone time before (and of course after) the new baby arrives. Anyhow we are living in the bible belt of Oklahoma right now and the only places that seem to offer these programs are the churches. I have one Jewish friend that sends her DD to a church program and seems to be alright with it (I have an email in to her asking more detailed philosophical types of questions). The closest temple to us is 25 minutes away and their program starts at 2 (which I would wait for, except...--->) but is only 2 hours long and so I'd spend about the same time in the car as DD would spend in the program, so not a great situation. We don't belong to the temple right now because DD goes to bed at 6 every night and so most of the activities and services are a no-go for us right now, but we do plan to get more involved as she gets older in the near future.
Anyhow, I'm kind of struggling with this right now. On one hand, it kind of weirds me out that she would be attending a church program, and participating in activities related to holidays we don't celebrate (Christmas, Easter) and talking about a messiah we don't believe in (Jesus!). On the other hand, at her young age I don't know it will have any real impression and I don't know how much these programs even get into that with kids these young, you know? But I don't know that I would like to have her singing "Jesus loves me" either. Any advice?

[lmintzer]

Honestly? It would bother me. I don't think there's anything wrong with you doing it if you feel comfortable, but it would make me feel really uncomfortable. Maybe it's because I grew up in a non-Jewish area and felt like such a minority--could be why I'm more sensitized to these things now. I guess, also, as a mom of 2, I wonder if I'll "give back" enough to a dying people (what's the chance that both my kids will be practicing Jews?). I'm not saying that going to church-based preschool would make it more likely that a child would not be a Jewish adult later on--probably wouldn't affect her either way. But we went the other extreme--even though we arne't super observant, we are sending Jack to a Jewish preschool. He started at 3, and he did pick up some stuff that year--he came home with a Hebrew word of the week, learned the basic blessings, made Jewish holiday crafts. To me, it meant something, but I think it's a very personal thing. And gosh, if that's your only reasonable option, than you that may be what you need to do. The only thing would be if you could find something to do up by the temple so that the trek would feel like not such a waste of time. Is there an internet cafe where you could unwind or check these boards (lol)? Or some shopping to be done up there? Just a few ideas and my thoughts. Hope I didn't offend in any way. I just wanted to post honestly about how I would feel in your boat.

[nfowife]

No, you're not offending me! I do want to say that for actual preschool and probably even the 3 year old program, we will be taking DD to the temple because I think that there are longer hours so that would make it more feasible. This would just be for the mother's day out program for probably a year to a year and a half, or until I find some other solution. I do want her to have a Jewish education and we aren't super observant right now but I do want to do more as DD gets older (like have a shabbot dinner/family night on Fridays; right now DD is already asleep at sundown!). Although DH and I grew up in a heavily Jewish area, this is the polar opposite. Most of my mommy friends (from mom's club) have never met another Jewish person before me and some of them thought it was another denomination of Christianity, like Protestants! But since DH is in the military (very rare for a Jewish boy, I know!) we are here whether we like it or not!

[Eloise36]

I am not Jewish, so can't add anything from that perspective. However, DS attends a Moms Morning Out program for 2 year olds at a local church and I feel the program there is very light on religion, if at all. The normal schedule for the kids is a half hour of free play for the kids followed by a craft (usually coloring), a snack and then free play again with toys. The caregivers may read the kids a story but not always. I think the intent of the program is socialization rather than education. The only hint of religion are the occasional Bible verses above the pictures on the pages the kids color (which I doubt any of them can read yet), and also that the Preschool observes Christian holidays. BTW, DS and I also participate in a parent-child class at a local Jewish Community Center and I am happy he is learning about Jewish holidays, customs and crafts.

Two potential issues come to mind: (1)the foods provided in the church Moms Morning Out program are not likely to be Kosher and (2) they will be observing and celebrating Christian holidays.

I hope you find something that works for you. Good luck!

[Queensgirl]

I'm not Jewish but just wanted to add some thoughts here. I think it really depends on how observant you are and how much time your DD will spend at the program. Are you able to visit some of the programs/churches and voice that concern. It's a legitimate issue and can't see why anyone would take offense and not answer honestly. Maybe the programs are held at the churches, but are non-denominational & don't emphasize religion? I grew up in a Jewish, non-observant neighborhood. I then lived in a very orthodox neighborhood. Our local Jewish community center (and temple) had many activities, open to all. Might that be the case w/ the churches? By the way, my very Catholic sister-in-law attended a Jewish pre-K (more than 25 yrs. ago). Her mother said it was the best one around & loved it.
Complete opposite of your situation, I know, but it worked for them!
Hope you find one you're comfortable with.

-Karina

[psophia17]

I'm not Jewish either, but I have a very good friend who is Orthodox, and we have had many conversations comparing Judaism and Catholicism (I'm Catholic). We didn't talk about kids at all (this was long before either of us were going down that road), but she did say that in her experience, there were more similarities between the two religions than there were between Judaism and other forms of Christianity. Maybe if there's a Catholic-based program nearby, it would be worth checking out?

As an aside, I went to Catholic school my whole life, and I don't really remember much about religion being taught until 2nd grade.

[Radosti]

I'm Jewish and hubby is Catholic. We agreed the ids will be Jewish. I wouldn't feel comfortable with sending Aaron to a church daycare. I'm concerned about the daycare he will be going to because they celebrate easter and christmas and all that... don't know what to tell you.

[Zansu]

If it's a MDO program rather than pre-school, isn't it more of organized babysitting? So how much "churching" would your DD actually get? Do you know anyone else in the program, so you can ask what the kids bring home (projects and vocabulary).

I would be completely weirded out if my kids came home singing Christian songs, but as long as this is a stop gap measure, I think you'll all be ok. Very little of it will stick, and your DD will be constantly surrounded by the celebration of Christian holidays no matter what. The best antidote to that is to start creating your family observances now, so that they are always a part of your DC's lives and memories.

And to get more involved in the synagogue, ask if they have a Chavurah program. It's like a playgroup for families (although they can be adult only). We've been involved in one for three years, and it's nice to be able to socialize with other Jewish families. You may be able to participate in a chavurah even if you're not members of the congregation.

[MichelleRC]

I am Jewish (DH is not) and DS goes to preschool at the Methodist Church. We chose this school because it came so highly recommended and also because there are no temple preschools in our area. II was a little hesitant at first, but we love the school. The emphasis on religion is not huge, although for Easter there is a little more than normal. It is more of a "Be kind to each other" thing than Bible Study. Danny did come with a cross they colored for Easter the other day and when I asked him what it was he told me a "T". So there you go. Last year before we moved, he was in a temple preschool program and I think more than half his class was not Jewish.

Not sure if this applies where you are, but here I found that the Methodist and Episcopal preschools had a more general curriculum, while the Catholic, Lutheran and Church of Christ schools were more religious-based.

Good Luck!

[JBaxter]

Im not Jewish but my boys did/are attending a church preschool and they were very multicultural. They talked about Passover and Hanukah as well as the Christian holidays. I learned alot!

[HIU8]

Personally that would bother me, but DH and I live in a very very heavily populated Jewish area. DS is in an in-home daycare situation where he is the only Jewish child. The lady who cares for him does ask me to supply books/information about the Jewish holidays and all the children learn about the Jewish holidays as well as the Chrisitan ones (I could not find a Jewish daycare that would take him under age 2). Also, I make DS meals because the lady who cares for him serves a lot of pork and ham for lunch. She doesn't have gefilte fish, which DS loves and eats every day at least twice a day, etc.... DS will be going to nursery school at the JCC in September when he is 21 months (he is 16 months now). However, if I were in your shoes I would want to know from the program I am considering, just how much religion is taught to the children. I would also try to expose DS at home to Judiasm. Also, at 18 months it shouldn't matter so much--especially if she will be going to nursery school someplace else.

HTH
Heather
DS 11/27/04

[icunurse]

I'm not Jewish, but I wanted to toss this in for you :) DS attends a MDO twice a week. The program, to me, is *very* religious (more so than others I have seen or heard about). DH and I are Catholic, but very laid back about it, not really gung-ho about everything the church teaches. That said, I sometimes cringe at stuff that DS does for art or songs, but then I realize that he has no idea what it all means at his age. He's enrolled for next year, too, as I think we can get by without too many issues. But after that, he's going just to a regular preschool program. For me, I don't have a problem with the religion aspect (it's a great program, DS has learned a lot and has a lot of fun, and I will send future children there), but I am a little uncomfortable with the level of religious teaching and some of the views of the church affiliated with the MDO.
Traci
~Connor's Mom 02/2004~
Agency paperwork completed - waiting (and waiting) for another baby!

[nfowife]

Thanks for all the input! I know I will have to do some research on my own regarding the specific program and what they teach. My other Jewish mommy friend emailed me back and says she is very happy with the MDO where her DD goes and that she feels it is quite secular. Her DD is 3 so older than mine and I think they might be a bit more religious than we are at the moment as well. I will have to give them a call because I think they are pretty close to me. I definitely will be sending DD to preschool at the temple when she is old enough, but for the MDO program the focus is more on socialization and fun, and giving mommy a break :) . I'm not too concerned with the academic aspect. You have given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate all your views!

[Zana]

We are not Christians (or Jewish :)), but DS attends a religious (catholic) based Montessori program simply it was because it was our best option. He was 11mths when he joined and will be there till he is 3 (we will be moving then). We knew at the time that this would be an issue (and quite frankly we havent even mentioned the Catholic aspect to my super-religious ILs!!). But we decided to go ahead anyway and its worked out pretty well.

DS loves his teachers and his school (the most important thing). Yes, they celebrate Xmas, Easter etc but this just involves DS making artwork/singing songs/having a party related to the event - At this age he really doesnt get more than that and neither do they make a bigger deal about it than that. Every morning they have 'bible study' which basically involves reading a story from the bible...again to DS its like reading any other book. Finally I do know that they sing "Jesus loves me" but he is 2 now and he has never once sung it at home, unlike the ABC song and sundry other nursery rhymes that he picks up from there and sings all the time. IMO they do teach the religous stuff since its the part of the curriculum, but at DSs school it does seem like they know he is not christian (if that makes any sense?). Also we teach him basic (our) prayers at home every night and he quite happily repeats that.

Frankly, I probably would not continue in a religion-based school as he gets older ...but right now, no matter what their message, all he does is have fun and I'm okay with that.

[aliceinwonderland]

We are not anything ;), but I too would have a bit of a problem with my kid singing "Jesus Loves me" several times a week. Because we're agnostic on most days, we are not sure re: Jesus, and even less sure re: whether he loves our son or not :)
If that's the only option, fine, but something about the indoctrination aspect of it makes me uneasy.

[JMS]

Hi Margaret,
I'm not Jewish, so I can't help in that sense but I wanted to ask if you've really looked into this particular MDO program? I only ask b/c I'm in the process of deciding between two separate MDO program's for DD in the fall and both are located in a church but are not church based. They both rent the space from the church they are located in (physically) but are not affiliated or endorsed by a church. The only connection is that one of the two programs (of course the one I really want DD to go to) gives preference to children of church members in their lottery system. Every school in my area has a wait list :(.

Good Luck and I hope you're able to find a suitable solution that gives you a much needed little break :)

[KBecks]

I'm Catholic, not Jewish, but can I play too?

Would it be possible to check into whatever church programs are available to find out what kinds of activities they do, and how much (if any) of it is Christian education vs. regular non-religious kid stuff?

Just because it's at a church doesn't necessarily mean that it's a religious ed program. I'm just guessing that some of the programs are designed for people of all faiths and are secular but with "Christian values".... but you don't know for sure unless you ask and find out the details. A MDO program is not equal to Sunday School, I think (and hope). I would expect a lot of religous ed in Sunday school, but not much at all in MDO, but they may do Easter and Christmas themes since they're such huge holidays.

I've attended lots and lots of different Christian churches and some are very pro-Jewish, and some are well.... backward. Not that you'd see anyone preaching negatively about Jews, but you'd find that some individuals who feel that Christianity is the only right way and everything else is pretty much wrong and misguided. I think this attitude is mostly rare, but I'd hate for your family to be exposed to that cr*p.

If there's Catholic programs, you may want to check them out. I find that the Catholic church generally approaches Jewish people as brothers and sisters, but again, this can vary by parish and by individual.

So, if you feel like investing the time, talk to the managers and teachers of the programs to see if what they're doing is general enough to work for you. Knowing the teacher is important, because you don't want a teacher who's going to treat your daughter as different. You just need a teacher who gets it in terms of being open and accepting of all faiths. I hope you can find something that works for you!

I totally agree.... having your kid sing "Jesus loves me" is completely unacceptable and would be terribly confusing for your daughter (how old is she??). Drawing pictures of the easter bunny and eggs and christmas trees might be OK, but you've got to go with your gut comfort level first and foremost.

Good luck!!!

[amp]

Jamie asked this exact kind of question about a year ago. You might want to search for that thread. I'm sure it's way buried in the archives, but could be found with a little diligence.

Also, where in OK are you? We just moved from KC down here to the Tulsa burbs, so I'm just curious where you are.

Good luck making a decision!

[applesauce]

Personally, I would have a problem with someone "using" the Church in this way and I am Christian, but not especailly religious. WOuld you be upset if someone "used" a temple for convenience sake? Just doesn't seem at all approapriate to me for many reasons.

[JustMe]

I am Jewish, although not religious at all, and I would not be feel okay with this. I want to say that I do not plan to send my child to Jewish based programs either (I prefer secular or inclusive/mulitcultural where lots of things are taught equally not as an aside to a main teaching), but I would be particularly uncomfortable about sending my child to a program that is based on a religion that is more dominant (and I don't mean dominant in a negative way; just meaning more present and practiced by a greater majority of people) in the country.

I feel that there are so many things about dominant religions that are so pervasive/weaved within the general US culture that it is very confusing for kids to realize that these beliefs/practices are actually religiously based and not necessarily pertinent to our family. I don't know if I am being clear, as this is hard to explain.

I realize you don't have a lot of choices, and of course it is about what you feel comfortable with. I do agree it would make a difference if the program really was mostly babysitting with no religous aspects weaved in. However, if I were making this decision I would ask a lot of questions to make sure that religion was not weaved in, in some way. I realize your child is young, but as someone who works with young children as a therapist/Early Intervention Specialist, you never know what they are able to take in or what can have an effect on them.

Are there any in-home daycares in your area? This is an option in some areas if you are just looking for a safe and fun place for your child to be.

Good luck with your decision.
Robyn
mom to a 3 yr old from Guatemala

[s_gosney]

As another mommy in OK, I just thought I'd point out that you're likely going to run into things like Easter and Christmas at any daycare, religious or not.
Although I am Christian, I can certainly understand your hesitation about sending your child to a program that's philosophy is in conflict with your beliefs. I think that pp have had some great ideas about questions to ask and such. I would look into the full range of options (home care providers, centers, church programs, etc) and see what you find. In the area where I am, it is very difficult to get anyone other than the MDO programs to take a child part-time, so you may just be stuck. I do think that there is great variation between the amount of religious focus at the church programs, so I'd visit a few and see what they're all about. I think that actually visiting is a much better indicator of the culture than a talk with the director. Good luck!

[jd11365]

I asked the same question this past year!
Here's the link: http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=234996&mesg_id=234996&listing_type=search

We sent her, it all worked out. Nothing overtly religious, and my husband is Christian, so we do have a tree at Christmas in addition to our menorah, and the Easter bunny comes to bring treats. Now, Jesus Loves Me would freak me out, but so far as I know, that hasn't happened. Oh, and funny this was posted today, but the teacher just left a message on my answering machine letting me know there was an Easter party on Friday so if I didn't want Kayla to participate I would have a heads up. Since it's just an egg hunt and treats, I'm ok with it...no one is impersonating the resurrection of Jesus. ;)

Hope that helps. :)

[pb&j]

Would it be possible to find out how many of the activities center around religion? My mom's side of the family is Jewish (we weren't really raised in any religion, though), and I went to a preschool affiliated with a Christian church. I don't have any recollection of doing anything particularly religious, though I'm sure that Christmas and Easter were celebrated, as we even celebrated them in public school in my red state. I'm certain my mom wouldn't have sent us had there been religious overtones to the instruction.

-Ry,
mom to Emma, stillborn 11/04/04
and Max, 01/05/06

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[pb&j]

>Personally, I would have a problem with someone "using" the
>Church in this way and I am Christian, but not especailly
>religious. WOuld you be upset if someone "used" a temple for
>convenience sake? Just doesn't seem at all approapriate to me
>for many reasons.

It sounds like the church is making this program available to the general public, therefore it *is* appropriate for the OP to take advantage of the service the church is providing. If the church doesn't want its resources used in this way, I'm sure that it wouldn't make its programs open to all comers. I'm not Christian, but I was of the understanding that churches often did nice things like this for members of the wider community.


-Ry,
mom to Emma, stillborn 11/04/04
and Max, 01/05/06

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[ellies mom]

I would agree. Especially since in areas like ours the options are about $150 a month for pre-schools in a church or almost $500 a month for pre-schools that are not churched based. Realistically, church-based pre-schools are the only option for a lot of families.

[chlobo]

I agree with Ry on this. If the church doesn't have a problem with children of different faiths attending the program it is not inappropriate.

[o_mom]

Wow, I don't even know how to respond to this.

I am Christian and many of the churchs in the area have daycare/MDO/preschool programs. These are open to the pubilc and never meant to be exclusive. Some will give preference to church members, but all encourage anyone of any faith to sign up. On the flip side, the local JCC has an excellent and highly sought after daycare that is used by many Christians. Of course, there is going to be some religious aspect of the care, more or less depending on the program.

For me, it all comes down to WWJD - I don't think that excluding little kids because they are Jewish would be part of his message.

[nfowife]

Yes, all the programs I am looking at are open to the public. I also would have no problem if my DD was at a Jewish program for there to be Christian children there as well. I used to teach public school and we did activities for both Jewish and Christian holidays, and some Muslim holidays as well. I'm all for inclusiveness and of course I know that my DD will have lots of exposure to Christian holidays because that's just how it is.

p.s. amp- we are in Edmond, a suburb of OKC :) .

[lmintzer]

Applesauce,
To me, that's not the point. I don't see it as wrong or inapprpriate for a Jewish child to be at Christian school. Nor do I see it as inappropriate for a Christian child to be at a JCC or synagogue preschool. Almost all of the programs I know (that are based in a particular faith) are open and welcoming to all. The question is whether it a particular parent is comfortable with that degree of immersion in another religion (in the absence of his/her own religious beliefs being taught as a means of comparison).

[kijip]

FWIW, I know that such programs at my Catholic parish are open to all faiths. I also know that the school is open to all faiths (some parents choose it for academic performance). And frankly, I am on the Jewish Community Center mailing list and occasionally attend their activities/classes. Which are open to all.

If you feel comfortable with it I would not hesitate to use the community resource. Maybe chat with the teachers to see if the activities are things you can handle. A lot of MDO programs are taught fairly secularly but run by the church as a community building service.

[kijip]

I think the church members get to decide how to structure their programming. As an active parish member, I have a hard time imagining parishes with a closed door to the community. At the very heart of much of most denomoninations' mission is to serve as evangels of Christian faith. And community outreach programs like MDO seek to do just that. In many cases it is just to build inter-faith community- a worthy community minded goal in my opinion. Also, MDO programs are fee based and the church does recieve revenue for registered families. In many cases, the fee might be lower for parish members. I really don't see this as a "convenience use" of church resources. And yes, as a Catholic I do attend from time to time events and classes held for the community at the Jewish Community Center. Heck, I might even join the JCC instead of the Y since it is closer. Since I will pay the fee and being Jewish is not required, I really don't see the problem. If anything it gives an exercise in community and tolerance to all involved (including me!).

[barbarhow]

Gosh-I sure hope that none of the Jewish community was offended when we put my Protestant father in Cedars Nursing Home. We chose it because it had the best care in the area, not because we were "using" it. It offered a service just like this MDO program. I would not hesitate to "use" a temple MDO/preschool program if that were the best option in my area. In fact I am a non-Catholic who will probably send her children to Catholic school because they are the best schools in this region. I hope the Catholics don't feel used by a Protestant.
It could be the start of a holy war. ;-)
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[amp]

Ah, Margaret, you are a bit away from us. I'm always looking to meet other moms, especially those from the boards, and especially with us being new here, but you're a bit of a hike, eh?! Thanks for responding.

[amp]

I agree, Barbara, and by the same token, should we not "use" the hospitals that are most always funded by or have a particular faith associated with them on paper? For example, the hospital I gave birth at is 7th Day Adventist, but my original choice was the Jewish Hospital. Those were my 2 top choices. The others were Catholic, but further away.

FWIW, most of the preschools in our area, both where I just moved to, and where I moved from, are located in churches or religious centers. Not all have a religious based curriculum, and not all of which cater to their parish members alone. They open it to the public and are more than willing to take my money and my kid. It's more a matter of whether you care about your child learning about Jesus or not. For me it's not an issue, but then again, at the core, I'm Christian, even though I'm not actively involved anywhere. And I could probably make a case for you either way.

Again, good luck making your decision. And check for that thread by Jamie from a year ago or so, or email her and ask her what the gist of the response was. It was interesting and fairly supportive to her.

[amp]

Ok, Jamie, I referred to this thread twice now, but am glad you popped in to link to it, because I didn't want to take on the task of finding it in the archives. Glad you had a link. I knew you'd asked this very same question.

[ctmom]

I would look into the programs more and make sure the are/aren't affiliated with the churches where they are located. In my town, there are about 5 preschools and/or mdo programs that are located in churches, but only one is faith based, the rest just rent the space from the churches. Because I'm Catholic I chose the program at my church, which is the faith based program in town. My youngest dd attends the mdo program and it is specifically called "teach me to pray, teach me to play" she comes home every week with a new prayer and craft pertaining to the Church teachings. You probably would not want your dd to attend a program like this.

HTH!!

Mary
dd#1 2/01
dd#2 12/03

[jamsmu]

My preschool was in an Episcipal Church (I was ages 3-5 when I attended.) No harm done. :)
I would be totally fine with it. You need the break and found a good place for her.

Will it bother you that she brings home an ornament for the tree or colors a few crosses? Probably. But she's learning a culture that she probably won't ever learn again, so, in that sense, you're opening her eyes to something outside your home. And you can always do Purim and Hannukah activities, etc. at home.

And that reminds me... I need to make a construction paper seder plate for DS' party tomorrow. (He's at a Jewish preschool and only 1/2 of the families are Jewish, so a lot of the Jewish stuff gets put on the Jewish moms--see? You should be happy you won't have to do that!) For the record, he's never come home singing Dreidel dreidel dreidel... but does sing Hokey Pokey and 5 Little Monkey's Jumping on the Bed, etc.

[TraciG]

For me I wouldn't feel comfortable with it .

[C99]

>Personally, I would have a problem with someone "using" the
>Church in this way and I am Christian, but not especailly
>religious. WOuld you be upset if someone "used" a temple for
>convenience sake? Just doesn't seem at all approapriate to me
>for many reasons.

I thought that temples were often marketplaces in the B.C. period?

To the OP: Nate attends a MDO program in a church. It is a Christian program, but not overtly so. We are both Episcopalians, but Nate's religious education is nebulous at this point. I don't know how much of it he is picking up, but since it is a co-operative program, I've worked in both his class and the 1-year-old class and I don't think I've heard mention of Jesus. They do a blessing/prayer before mealtimes and they do a song about thanking G-d for their hair, eyes, arms, etc. ETA: So far, all of the holiday crafts, etc. that they have done have been in the "secular" sense: Easter eggs and bunny (which is really Pagan), Santa Claus, etc.

Nate is 3 and only just started to learn the words to songs -- today he came home singing Little Bunny Foo-Foo. I bought him a bucket of those little foamie stickers. We picked it out because it had animals on it, but when we got it home, I discovered that it was Noah's Ark. He kept referring to Noah as the zookeeper.

[anamika]

Just my perspective. I was raised Hindu and studied mostly in a Catholic convent school. So yes, my sister and I went to special mass and sang hymns and said all the prayers at assembly.
I can assure you it didn't scar us in any way :) If anything, it really helped me learn about another religion. It also helped that my parents were cool with it.
My sister now often goes to a local church and a mosque (as well as Hindu temples, of course).
So just my opinion........