Interesting article: The Mom Mystique

[bunnisa]

I think this article brings up some interesting points, and wonder what everyone else thinks. Here's the beginning excerpt:

The Mom Mystique
By Karen von Hahn for the Toronto Globe and Mail

Who is in the driver's seat of the minivan next to you? Sorry, it might look like her, but, it's not really Mommy. Thanks to the vogue for "consensus" or "democratic parenting," our children are now the ones who decide whether they are ready to leave without kicking up a fuss, and when they're ready for bed.

Not only are we unable to say "No!" to our three-year-olds (who don't suffer the same difficulty), we are asking them where we should go on vacation and which restaurant we should go to for dinner. If there is anything we could have learned from our own mothers, surely it is that being a mother means never having to say you're sorry.

***
excerpted - read the entire article at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060513.NOTICED13/TPStory/TPEntertainment/Style/


Bethany
blessed wife and mama to two!

"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-Justin Torres

[maestramommy]

Interesting! I came from a household of strong parental authority. Though there were some things I want to get away from (hard spankings and yellings) I'm still old-fashioned enough to feel like I'm the boss, and DD will have to obey me sometimes just because I say so, and I'm not going to stand there doing UN level negotiations. If in fact what the article is saying about today's mommies/parents is true, I'd have to say it's pretty depressing. However, since my DD isn't yet a toddler I can only say what I plan to do if she starts pulling something major.

BTW, I think the behavior you see on "Supernanny" is the type of thing that can happen to anybody. I'm sure a lot of parents look at their kids and wonder how they got to that point. "Supernanny" just shows families that have kids behaving like that all day.

[KBecks]

I think our 4 year old niece runs her house. I posted in the b*tching post about my BIL-SIL driving to Disney World and skipping a part of our Key Largo family vacation. I learned later that the probable reason they went was to keep niece happy, because somehow she thought that a FL trip would mean Disney, and they didn't want to disappoint her.

I do think that they both enable niece to have her way, and they let her negotiate almost everything. I hardly see a no that is carried through. She even still gets into their bed and sleeps with them EVERY NIGHT, she's four. They don't want her there, but they have been unsuccessful getting her to spend the whole night in her own bed.

Anyway, I like Dear Niece, she's bright and very active, but she does wield lots and lots of power in her little world. I wonder how things will play out for her as she goes to school, and grows older.

[barbarhow]

What a great article. I agree with it. I have a hard time with the mothers I know who say that they don't say "no" to their children. They claim they are saving "no" for really important or dangerous situations. I guess I feel that it is dangerous to not set limits with a child and to not have them learn who is in charge. They also need to learn that they can't have everything that they want. If they don't learn what is called optimum frustration now-they are in for a very difficult transition into the real world.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[kath68]

The article reminded me of something I saw today. I was standing in line at a place for lunch, and there was a mom in front of me, with two kids. One was in the stroller, and the other (about 3yo?) was roaming the entire restaurant. At one point he was standing outside, holding the door open. Then he was going up to total strangers. Then he practically went behind the counter to the cooking area. He demanded some toothpicks from the counter, and she handed them over. She just let him do it all. She didn't even seem bothered by it. He was certainly the one in charge, not her.

I am not there yet with Charlie, and I am not trying to judge. It just seemed to me that if she couldn't/wouldn't reel him in there, she is going to have a much tougher time later.

In general, I agree with the author of the article, I guess. There is something to old school parenting -- and grabbing hold of the authority. I'd just like to think you can do it without the spanking, etc that is associated with that style.

[barbarhow]

>There is something to old school parenting -- and grabbing
>hold of the authority. I'd just like to think you can do it
>without the spanking, etc that is associated with that style.

It can be done without physical punishment. So far it is working quite well with Jack. He is respectful and mindful. He tests boundaries and is told no. Consistency and firmness without yelling and spanking. It works pretty well in our experience.

[jenjenfirenjen]

Very interesting. Luckily, I don't really know any moms like this. Goodness knows my mom ruled the roost and so do I (along with DH.) I don't believe in enforcing my authority just to get my kicks, but I do believe the parents should be in charge and the kids should know that. I think just like the article said, there is a comfort in that for the children.

I do try to limit using the actual word "no" with DS just because I don't want it to be the only thing he hears and to start saying it to me all the time. That doesn't mean that a large part of my day isn't correcting, distracting, reprimanding him...it is. I just try to be a little creative with my language when I can and explain why we can't do so and so. That leaves "no" for the really important instances when I don't have time to think of a better way to say it...like when he's reaching for something on the stove, etc. Hopefully it gives "no" more impact.

[brittone2]

Interesting article. I'd like to think it is possible to be authoritative without being authoritarian. Similary, I don't think a parent has to be punitive to be effective. I'm very anti Super Nanny ;) but that doesn't mean my child is allowed to behave inappropriately.

I do think there are a lot of permissive parents, but I'm also a parent that doesn't use "no" very often, etc. and I don't consider myself permissive w/ DS. There are so many strategies available that don't involve negotiating/permissiveness, but also don't involve an authoritarian parenting style.

[holliam]

Regardless of your parenting style (AP, traditional, alien intervention), you can be permissive, and I think permissive parenting is the problem. Consistency and boundaries are needed, but it has nothing to do with whether you say "no" or not. I redirect Mari a lot and set boundaries just fine without uttering that word, and she never said it to us either until she heard her aunts say it often in the past two weeks.

In my opinion, it really changed her behavior, and we are now in the process of re-forming the boundaries and redirecting methods that do work well without using "no", which has caused far more behavioral problems than we had seen before.

We are constantly being praised for Mari's behavior, even when she is having one of her toddler meltdowns, complete strangers give us such positive feedback for how she and we handle it.

So, I do very much think that it is possible to set boundaries and limits very successfully using our parenting methods.

Holli

[kijip]

Well I am the mean mommy who redirects and says no. Toby tests but seems to do well with boundries and while I treat him with respect and try to model good manners I do not let him set the agenda so to speak. I can't stand it when parents ask their kids permission for things the parents should be directing. They end up with cranky, unhappy kids IME.

[tiapam]

A frequent slogan of my mom's was, "This is not a democracy!"

Because of DD's age and disposition, this isn't an issue for us yet. Unless caving about something she wants to eat or letting her watch Signing Time (again!) counts. I see that as more of a convenience thing, though. I see it as serving both of our interests. For now.

-Pam

DD - One year old!

[Vajrastorm]

It isn't a democracy if the parents grant a child's every wish. That's a dictatorship. ;)

Granted, I'm not trying to run a democracy, but I do strive for consensus as much as possible, and I'm satisfied with the path our family is on. I (mostly) treat dd with respect and she (mostly) treats me with respect too. I don't think either of us has any confusion about who is larger, wiser, and more capable.

The article was dealing with pretty shallow cliches, as well as the classic "Back in the good 'ol days" nostalgia, whih has been happening for as long as recorded history. The previous generations always did a better job ... ask the Romans!

[new_mommy25]

>A frequent slogan of my mom's was, "This is not a democracy!"
>
>


Your post made me smile because my mom used to say the exact same phrase. :)

[barbarhow]

I don't understand the problem with saying "No" to a child. What are you protecting the child from? And conversely, what is wrong with a child saying "No"?
I guess I don't understand how being told "No" could change a child's behavior. I personally don't see how a word could possibly cause behavioral problems. Maybe there was something else that caused the issue?
We have also been on the receiving end of positive feedback for our children's behavior. So I think it is also very possible to set boundaries and teach respect while using the word "No". JMHO.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[brittone2]

I can't speak for Holli, but one reason we don't use "no" all that frequently is that for us, using "NO" is saved for really immediate danger, etc. So I don't want to dilute the power of "no" by saying it all day long. Other families probably have their own words for when their child needs to stop something immediately, or do it differently, but it is what works for us.

Also, I've read that from a developmental standpoint, kids have difficulty for a number of years thinking in the negative. So, for example, Logan will sometimes put his feet on the table when we are eating (just touches them to the table). Rather than saying "no feet on the table" I will often say "feet on your kinderzeat." IMO it is easier for him to understand what I want if I'm very specific and tell him what *to* do vs. what NOT to do. Maybe that isn't true for all families or in your experience but we find it very effective. IMO it isn't a matter of "protecting" him from anything.

Again, Holli probably has her own reasons but I wanted to share two (there are quite a few more reasons I could come up with as well) why our family doesn't do a lot of "nos". Like many parenting approaches, there are a million reasons why any one of us does things a certain way. I don't think "no" is inherently an evil word ;) but we get by just fine without using it much at all. IMO we aren't a permissive household at all either.

[holliam]

It's simply not the way I wish to parent my child. You said, "I have a hard time with the mothers I know who say that they don't say "no" to their children. They claim they are saving "no" for really important or dangerous situations. I guess I feel that it is dangerous to not set limits with a child and to not have them learn who is in charge"

Considering that I have made nearly that same statement dozens of times on this board, I was just reiterating that in our family it is very possible and quite simple to set limits without using "no" nor expect my child to learn who is in charge. I also think by restricting "no" to truly dangerous situations enables her to understand true dangers.

Personally, I don't like someone running around telling me "no" every time I try to do something. I much prefer someone to stop and explain things to me. It's not that I never tell her that she can't do something. It's just that I do it without using "no".

So, if my child throws a block (like she did today), I gather her into my arms and say "We do not throw blocks because it can be dangerous. We might hurt someone. Blocks are hard and sharp. We can throw soft balls or playsilks in the house." We have explained things to her ever since she was an infant. Forcing ourselves to avoid the use of "no" consequently forces us to slow down and take the time to explain things to her. Honestly, if I cannot think of an explanation, then it usually means that I have chosen to disapprove of that activity for some unknown reason and it is likely not really worth it.

I find that *my* child is much happier when we are working like this. She seems to slow down and listen to us much more when we take the time to explain things to her. When she is told "no", she tends to just parrot it back to the person and it is ineffective as a behavioral modification tool for *my* family.

Thus, if another family uses a different parenting technique, it's not intended to be a judgement against your method. Permissive parenting can happen with any type of parenting style, as can loving and boundary setting parenting.

Holli

[lisams]

I use "no", but try to limit it. My reason is that "no" usually comes out of my mouth like this: "no running", "no whining", "no yelling" etc. I try hard to say it like this instead - "walking feet", indoor voice", "use your talking voice", etc. Emma seems to respond much better telling her what to do instead of what not to do. Like I said, we do use "no" and especially when we mean business, but I try to not use it as much because it simply doesn't work as well. But when she does get a firm "NO" from me, she knows Mommy means business and if she doesn't immediately stop the behavior she goes right to her room. It's one of those things that I learned as we went!

[holliam]

Yea, I forgot to mention that too. Instead of saying things like "don't open the door", we say "please close the door" to keep the emphasis on the positive. It works really well if you say "Oh! Can we close the door now?" She seems to like to think she is helping. :)

Holli

[Melanie]

>I can't speak for Holli, but one reason we don't use "no" all
>that frequently is that for us, using "NO" is saved for really
>immediate danger, etc. So I don't want to dilute the power of
>"no" by saying it all day long.

Ditto. In everyday situations I find it more useful to tell Dc what they can do, instead of what the cannot. Example instead of "No! We Don't throw blocks!" I would say, "You may build with your blocks." or I might say,"If you want to throw here is a ball."

Of course, that's in a perfect world when always have the time to think about what I want to say.

[aliceinwonderland]

Barb,
I say "no" quite a bit...As a matter of fact I may have said "I already old you "no" about that a billion times today"--which I guess is problematic on several levels, one being Erik does not count to a billion yet, second, I doubt I **actually** said it one billion times. So I guess my kid will be screwed up in more ways than one, which is always the fun way to be screwed up.

Sometimes I feel like I want to hear myself speak and go on on the reasons why a particular activity might not be the way he wants to go about it, but then he gets bored and walks away....

[Jeanne]

I don't see the word "no" as negative. The problem comes in when the word is used without ever offering an explanation as to why something can or shouldn't be done.

The world is filled with "no" for children and adults. It's a very simply way of explaining that an action should not be undertaken without question. This is pretty common sense. No Parking, No Smoking, No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service...

We use the word "no" in conjunction with an explanation. And with a toddler who is almost 5, we've found that offering an explanation helps to rationalize right from wrong. Such as "no, that is dangerous, you will get hurt". The point is very well taken by both our girls and now we just say "no - dangerous" and they get it.

My friends have kids much older than mine and I've seen the effects of never saying "no". Regardless of how many times an explanation or alternative to that word is used, when the word "no" is never uttered, it is ALWAYS subject to negotiation and interpretation. It also doesn't establish many boundaries as the child ages. This isn't the only area but this combined with parenting as "friend" instead of "authoritative parent", has caused a lot of trouble for my friends. And truthfully, I don't see these kids as problematic or bad, but rather high maintenance PITA kids who will most likely grow into high maintenance PITA adults who get the eye roll.

JMHO but I think you can use the word "no" very successfully without it being construed as negative as long as you have set the proper explanations and expectations in place. Otherwise, don’t you think the child will suffer even more when they venture out in a world full on simple "no's"? They are not always going to be given an explanation as to why and I don't think anyone can rightfully expect that. Nor are they always going to be told the reason the way they want to hear it. I don’t want my kids to take everything too personally just because it was said to them in a way they aren’t used to hearing it – it’s not what was said, but how is was said, etc…

[barbarhow]

Well exactly-I don't think kids of this age compute a full explanation. They think in about 5 words particles. I follow my nos with a simple explanation. Seems to do the trick.
And what the heck is wrong with Erik? Jack's been counting to a billion for infinity. ;-)
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[barbarhow]

Beautifully said Jeanne. Thank you.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[holliam]

I will strongly disagree with you on this one. Children understand far more than most people give them credit. It's obvious with my own child and from my years of experience working with them (in grad school, as a nanny, etc.).

My daughter understands absolutely everything we tell her. I have no doubt about that. Her words and actions make it very clear that she understands us.

Honestly, I don't know why people here seem to want to passively bash those of us who don't want to say the word "no". I don't think any of us on the anti-no side of the fence has ever gone on and on to imply that you all are doing your child harm. We have simply explained why we are doing what we are doing for OUR families.

This just gets so tiresome. The off-handed comments that imply those of us who choose a different parenting style are somehow making this up, bragging, whatever.

I personally know several of the mamas on this board who use positive discipline/gentle discipline in real life. I have met their children. They have met mine. We aren't making it up. The kids do respond. They do understand.

These are techniques that do work well for many families. Just because it's not the method you have chosen, does not imply a judgement on your parenting style. If you ask what we do, we'll tell you and why. But, please don't respond by trying to explain why we are wrong. We're not wrong, just different.

But, I have said this many times before, I don't really care what other people do with their kids. As long as they are not being physically, sexually, or emotionally abused, I don't care. But, I will always share my opinion of what we do and use successfully in my family.

Holli

[brittone2]

I couldn't agree with Holli more.

I absolutely believe my son processes and understands more than a 5 word sentence. Like Holli's daughter, he does better if I explain *why* he can't have something or do something. I don't always explain in detail, but he's very capable of understanding most of the time when I do explain. He does much better if I take the time to explain than if I don't.

That doesn't mean that works for all kids, but it works for mine, so we keep doing it. If I take something away from him without explanation he gets far more upset than if I explain *why* he can't have it. That's just how it works around here.

So, it works for us. It isn't a judgement of your parenting style that you opt for something else. I will say some of your comments come across as judgemental to me as well. I assure you my child is doing just fine and is a pleasure to be around (most of the time) even though I do things differently than you. I've got no plans to change since this works for us.

We set boundaries...I just use different language and a different parenting style than you do. I'm sure your kids are great too.

[Jeanne]

I don't see anyone passively bashing you or anyone else in this thread - really.

I practice aspects of AP and traditional parenting but with a focus on learning the most from others around me. Like I said, most of my friends and family have kids much older than mine - as many as 16 years older so when you have a large sample in which to view what works and what doesn't in real life, you tend to see that a lot of what worked for a young child, doesn't work for a tween or teen.

Books and parent groups of similiar age are great resources but can sometimes put people in a bubble. And I guess I do care how others parent simply because I have children that interact with other children. And living in a diverse world, they are going to be exposed to many kids whose parenting style varies from mine. I just hope that most people do recognize when they need to use a little common sense in their parenting because I don't want to have to find ways to discourage my kids from hanging around the high maintenance PITA kids. Nor so I ever want to say that out loud to bias them.

I don't think anyone is bashing you.

[daisyandacorn]

Oh My! I read the article yesterday but just read this thread now.
I feel sorry for the author of it, and any kids she comes into contact with.
The idea of reducing my child to jelly with a raised eyebrow is obscene. Children are people.
No need to humiliate someone because you don't like what they're saying, or say No at every turn because "You are the mother".
Of course they understand you. Even cats and dogs understand more than yes or no.
We don't always explain every little thing to our kids. If our 3 year old tears off towards the street or tries to grab the cats tail she hears a sharp No followed by an explanation of why not.
Not just because I (or Dh) like the sound of our own voices, but because we are teaching our children abvout the world.
FWIW, I'm not a PITA, and neither is my daughter.

Susan

[lisams]

"Sometimes I feel like I want to hear myself speak and go on on the reasons why a particular activity might not be the way he wants to go about it, but then he gets bored and walks away...."

OK what's funny is when my MIL explains things to her dog, like "No, we can't go outside, it's raining and muddy. In a little hon." Now, I do think children understand A LOT more than we really think they do, but a dog?

[lisams]

I suppose it goes to show that different things work for different children and families. I think everyone in this thread would agree that children need and want boundaries and guidance in learning them.

[barbarhow]

Wow, Holli. I haven't seen anyone here passively (or otherwise)bashing anyone. Actually it seems that you have gotten quite defensive in the midst of a pretty interesting discussion.
Perhaps Mari can understand a long explanation as you described in your post but most developmental experts will tell you (and there is research to support this) that the majority of children who are between 18 months and 2 years do not understand nor do they listen to long explanations. I think many times what they do absorb is the caring voice of the parent. The nurturing they certianly do respond to. And I agree wholeheartedly, distraction and redirection work wonders.
For the record I don't feel judged by anyone here. I, personally, could not care less what anyone here thinks about my parenting choices. My style is one that my DH and I have reached together and is directly responsive to the needs of each of our children as individuals and our personal beliefs regarding parenting. These beliefs may or may not be different from the majority of the rest of the world. This is irrelevant to me. I wonder, Holli, if perhaps you are the one feeling judged? I am not judging you and I completely agree that different styles work well for different children and different families. I apologize if you are feeling bashed or judged by me.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[holliam]

You're right--I do feel judged. As I mentioned, your original statement about parents who only use "no" for dangerous situations was judging. The continual defense of the use of "no" does seem judgemental too. I'm just being honest here.

My academic background is in cognitive/language development so I'm well-read on child development. I'm not talking about a long scientific explanation of why a projectile throwing through the air would cause pain to another person. My example was in line with the type of info we normally provide--certainly more than 5 words.

But, I do strongly believe that children do in fact understand more than most parents seem to think. It's an irony I find in American society in particular that seems to push independence and "growing up" yet (in general--not you specifically!), many adults seem reluctant to respect that children are people and can understand more than we think.

Maybe it's because we have always explained things, even when she was much younger. I agree that when she was 7 months old, she probably had no idea what we were saying, but I think that by us continually explaining things to her, she really gets it.

I admit that sometimes she "gets" things that we have no idea how she figured out. So, perhaps she is precocious in her understanding. But, I don't think so. I see Logan (Beth's son) grasp things well too.

Holli

[s_gosney]

Just chiming in tentatively here to say that while pps may not agree, I can see why Holli may be feeling attacked/bashed. While I certainly see that we are all being very careful to say "I'm not talking bad about your parenting decisions", anytime we start referencing how "well, my friend that does that has PITA kids", THAT IMHO is passive negativity, whether you call it bashing or not. Just imagine that you just posted that you spank your children and I respond that of the children I've seen, the ones who have been spanked are violent or more disrespectful or whatever. Wouldn't you feel judged by that comment?

Although we here at the BBB are a very diverse group, one of the things we clearly all hold in common is that we want to be the best parents we can, and many of us spend a great deal of time reading and reflecting to determine how to constantly improve as parents. Of course we all approach it a little differently. We are all individuals as are our children, and anyone who knows anything about child development knows that each parent-child dyad is unique. Clearly there are parenting practices that are unacceptable, but I don't think anyone here falls into that category. Heck, if someone posts and says "I blew up at my child today and yelled at her or spanked her and I feel like such a failure", everyone would rally around that poster and say it's okay, we all have our moments...and I can almost guarantee that the responders would include both parents who spank and those who don't. So, why in the world can we not exhibit that same graciousness to parents who parent differently than us on an everyday basis? Really...can't we all just get along? ;) I just hate to see us mommies ganging up against one another when clearly we all are just trying to do the best we know how.

[aliceinwonderland]

My mom does the same with her dog. :)

[kath68]

ETA: I just re-read my post, and it sounds more combatitve than intended. I am really just want to understand the parenting style more, since it seems to have its devotees. And it seems to work for people. So forgive me for sounding harsh. I am just asking questions, is all. Bottom line for me, I just want to know more about what works for people, and I really think most people use a bunch of different styles mixed up together.

I think what gets *my* hackles up in these discussions is when false dichotomies are presented. To quote G.W., the "you are either with us or against us" viewpoint. Nothing is ever that simple.

People who use the word "No" can be gentle in their discipline, too.
People who don't use "No" can be downright mean. IMO, AP, gentle parenting, whatever you call it, has nothing to do with the word "No."

I use "No." I am gentle about it. I explain and redirect. There are lots of tools in my tool chest, just like everyone else's. We are not so different, whether or not we use the word "no."

I guess what I find intruiging about the anti-"no" perspective is that it voluntarily takes one of the tools out of that tool chest. And I still don't understand why, despite the explanations here. I understand why you choose other tools, but why toss out one that may have an application down the road?

Also, as a practical matter, speaking as a mom who gets frustrated/tired from time to time, and has been known to blurt out a "No" or a "Stop" without a full explanation why, I just don't know how a parent could stop themselves from *ever* uttering the word "no." That requires a level of control 24/7 that seems super-human to me. And then when the word "no" does eventually pop out of a parents' mouth, wouldn't there be disappointment in oneself and a feeling of failure, which could interfere with the parenting relationship? It is so hard to parent, why make it harder?

I am sorry you think that people accuse you of making things up about Mari. I don't read anything in this thread as questioning her or you. From everything you say, she seems to be thriving, and absolutely delightful. If there are people who disagree with you, I think they are doing so for the purpose of promoting interesting discussion about a parenting style, not to attack or judge.

[holliam]

>just don't know how a parent could stop themselves from *ever*
>uttering the word "no." That requires a level of control 24/7
>that seems super-human to me. And then when the word "no"
>does eventually pop out of a parents' mouth, wouldn't there be
>disappointment in oneself and a feeling of failure, which
>could interfere with the parenting relationship? It is so
>hard to parent, why make it harder?

But, here is an excellent example of judging or passively bashing or making us feel like we're bragging. I am sure you didn't intend that, but do you see how it can be viewed that way?

I am NOT super human. I make mistakes daily in my life. I am overweight and have a million other character flaws. But, it is very important to me to choose this path in my parenting. It is what works for my daughter. So, I do force myself to stop and think what to say. Sometimes I can't do it, so I walk away and tell my husband to do it. I don't think any of us said we never use "no". What we did say was that we use it for truly dangerous situations.

Honestly, not having it in the toolbox in the first place, makes it really easy not to miss it. Like I said, by forcing myself to have an explanation, it forces me to slow down and consider the situation.

Parenting like this has made me a better wife and friend too. By default, my personality is reactive and accusatory. I have forced myself to become the parent I want to be, and that is leading me to be the person I want to be too.

It's not easy. I'm not super human. But, it is what is right for us.

Holli

[brittone2]

Well, I won't say that we *never* use no, but most of the time it isn't a problem for me to avoid it. I don't feel pressured or distraught or disappointed or anything else when it does slip out ;) It is just something we've done since the beginning...we've used other ways of saying no whenever possible, so for me it is just habit. I really don't find myself consciously avoiding no...it is just that the habit of not saying it is already ingrained in my mind that I automatically word things without saying it most of the time.

"NO" and "stop" are definitely in my toolchest, but it just gets reserved for when I need DS to stop immediately due to safety.

I totally agree that parents can be gentle and effective while using no, we just opt for a different way of doing things and it works for us. "No" works for lots of people here obviously.

I think it is great to have these topics so we can all open our minds to other ways of thinking and parenting...even if we don't agree, we all learn something. IMO it doesn't always come across in all cases that people have a genuine interest in why someone does something a particular way...and in those cases, the subtle choice of words can make someone feel personally attacked. It is as if (IMO) sometimes a question is asked, and when an answer is given, it isn't "adequate" for some reason...I think that makes people feel attacked (at least that is the case for me here sometimes). In those cases it doesn't seem to me like there was a genuine interest in the first place....but maybe I'm just sensitive like that ;)

To each their own.

[maestramommy]

Okay, just so I can follow this discussion a little more, what is PITA?

[brittone2]

pain in the @ss.

[elliput]

pain in the ass

ETA - I see Beth is a bit more PC than I! ;-)

[kath68]

>>just don't know how a parent could stop themselves from
>*ever*
>>uttering the word "no." That requires a level of control
>24/7
>>that seems super-human to me. And then when the word "no"
>>does eventually pop out of a parents' mouth, wouldn't there
>be
>>disappointment in oneself and a feeling of failure, which
>>could interfere with the parenting relationship? It is so
>>hard to parent, why make it harder?
>
>But, here is an excellent example of judging or passively
>bashing or making us feel like we're bragging. I am sure you
>didn't intend that, but do you see how it can be viewed that
>way?
>


Holli -- I honestly am at a loss to know how to have this conversation with you, then. I am not judging. I am not bashing. If you know I didn't intend to do those things (and I didn't, and said so), why choose to view it that way? I just want to discuss parenting with someone who apparently does it differently (but not that differently) than me. I am saddened that I can't ask the questions I asked without it unintentionally hurting you.

I am not saying that you are super-human, or that you claim to be. All I am is saying is that it seems really hard, doing what you are doing. And that I don't fully understand the whys of it. It is great that it works for your family. And you mentioned years of nanny experience, which feeds into your decision. Clearly you know what you are doing. You have more experience than me. Why is it so hard to believe that I am sincerely asking the questions?

[daisyandacorn]

That's something to applaud!
Of course, you're not a "super human" That would really be bestowing an easy label on you and negating all of your hard work.
It's refreshing to hear someone acknowledge that living the life you want to live is a choice, and that not all of us are sunny and thoughtful by nature. I'm not at all surprised that the choices you're making as a parent are making you a better friend and wife-it just makes sense.
eta- I meant to reply to Holli

[brittone2]

I also just wanted to chime in and say that there are million varieties of "attachment parenting" just as there are a million varieties of other parenting styles.

I've met very permissive, drive me crazy, attachment parents with kids who walk all over them. I've met people who spank but only after saying "Johnny, please don't do that. " "Johnny, you need to stop." "Johnny, how many times do I have to tell you to cut it out." "Johnny...." and then the fifth time they crack the kid. That's permissive IMO.

Similarly I've met attachment parenting/gentle discipline parents that say it once and make it happen. Not punishing doesn't mean a child doesn't have boundaries and rules. Attachment parenting doesn't mean you let your child run wild any more than people who use more traditional methods are child abusers, kwim? There's a million flavors under the sun of what can happen in any given parenting style.

I just don't think it is fair to picture all "attachment" parents as parenting exactly in the same way, any more than it is fair to assume that other parenting styles all parent the same way. There's a huge range of permissive to very authoritarian/punitive that can happen across any parenting style you come across.

[kath68]

Yup.

I think it goes both ways, though, just like you said. In my experience, *some* people who label themselves as AP often lump everyone else in a category of lesser-than, lazy, uneducated, uncaring, authoritarian parent. Understandably, that sweeping generalization is offensive, too.

To the extent that there is any sparks flying in this thread, I think it is because the labeling as AP vs "traditional" (or whatever the opposite of AP is) is totally inaccurate and counter-productive. There are as many parenting styles out there as there are children. People on both sides of that false dichotomy don't like to be pigeon-holed. It is just like the fake "mommy wars" between SAHMs and WOHMs, IMO. There are no sides on this one.

[kijip]

>I think it goes both ways, though, just like you said. In my
>experience, *some* people who label themselves as AP often
>lump everyone else in a category of lesser-than, lazy,
>uneducated, uncaring, authoritarian parent. Understandably,
>that sweeping generalization is offensive, too.


Thank you for pointing this out. While I have not seen so much of this in this thread, I have seen that attitude on BBB.

[aliceinwonderland]

Yep. I have got the implication that I am an unenlightened parent so many times, I now believe this about myself. Shrug. That must be the way it is then. But when I talk about the way *I* parent, I am then passively accusing/passing judgment someone? When all I am talking about is *my* particular kid, who *does not* in fact understand everything I tell him and *does* get bored with my explanations?? How does this work??

[Jeanne]

Not sure I see it that way because we are all hanging around this message board, aren't we? Who's not here to learn a better way or alternatives? I see this board as a great tool in addition to RL friends, books, pre-k, and playgroups. Referencing examples from RL whether they came from someone on this board or outside is a logical way to explain simply why *I* choose my style of parenting. I don't see how that is ganging up or bashing someone. It's simply a way to express why a person draws from one style as opposed to another.

Actually, using the word "negative" in describing the word "no" could similarly cause offense to those on this board who use the word "no" in their discipline. Posting that you don't use that word because you feel that a child understands more than that can imply that those who use don't necessarily have a firm grasp of just how much a child can understand. That could be taken offensively despite the fact that it's not meant that way.

[dules]

I am so tentatively jumping in here, just on your point! I have recently become a SAHM/WAHM and DH still goes to work every day. He feels kind of left out and jealous of DD's and my time together, so when he DOES spend time with her he asks her permission for EVERYTHING, which makes DD (2.5) really cranky and irritable with him. She much prefers that I tell her what we're going to do (and I try to make it sound like fun, lol).

I tried to broach this with DH this AM. Maybe I should direct him to this thread to help him think about it.

FWIW I don't think about whether we say No or not - sometimes we do and that works for us. But DD hit an age right around 2 when suddenly everything was no, even if she really means yes when she reconsiders. IMO it's just a way for her to try and test limits (which she expects and wants) and exert a little freedom. We deal with No - hers and ours - depending on the situation.

Interesting topic, and I hope it continues! I love reading about different people's "real life" parenting styles.

Best,
Mary

[Jeanne]

So I guess because I referenced knowing a situation IRL as a PITA is cause for somehow interpreting that anyone who chooses a different parenting style will raise PITA kids? Not what I said.

[papal]

haha. me too. I am a fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants parent. So were my parents. I turned out okay (i think). heehee.
I envy those of you whose kids listen to them at every instance. Mine is defiant, frustrating, rebellious and sometimes a PITA. She was born like that (my little one is completely different!). I love her to death but I swear some days are a pure test in my patience (which I sorely lack).
I have no parenting rules.. i use my instinct. Maybe that is not such a good idea! LOL.

[jbowman]

I think Ellie and Leela are talking on the phone, Rashmi. ;) Sounds as if Alice and Meera are similar as well! :) I'm another one who parents purely by instinct!

[brittone2]

Well, I'm sure I'm going out on a limb by saying this but I will.

Often there are questions here such as the recent "how much TV does your child watch?" which inevitably leads to questions about why some posters do/do not allow TV in their homes. It is hard to answer a question like that without annoying *somebody*. I think that there are people who are genuinely curious why someone wouldn't or would allow TV. However, for every person who is curious, there are probably 5 people that really are tired of the discussion becuase they've been around here long enough to see it played out, kwim?

So for someone who doesn't have TV in their home, as I see it, their choices are to a.) Not answer b.) only give the answer that their child doesn't watch and then not give a reason why, even when pressed by the one or two people that might actuallly be curious.

So yeah, my child doesn't watch TV. I don't think that makes me a better parent. I've done reading on it and decided from what I've read and learned that I prefer to not have it be part of our lives for as long as it is practical. That doesn't mean I don't think other parents haven't researched it for themselves or that they can't make their own decisions about it. But if someone asks specifically "why not?" and wants to know, should I lie? Should I pretend I haven't read about it? Should I cite or not cite the reasons? If I explain why, it seems like I'm saying I think I'm a better parent because my kid doesn't watch, even if that's not what I think at all. If I don't explain why, the few posters that might actually be genuinely curious won't really see a full range of opinions on the topic.

So, this time, I didn't even bother answering the question because it feels like most people really don't *care* at this point. They don't really care that my child doesn't watch TV or why. So I just feel like there's no point in answering.

Same thing with any number of topics...why we don't have plastic or noisy toys, why we eat organic, why we don't vax on schedule. I can share what I've read and learned and how I made my decisions (and any given person on here could probably find research to substantiate any parenting choice they've opted to make, but I'm just saying I could offer why I do things a certain way...not that it is *THE* right way), or I can lie, or avoid it altogether, which apparently is the smartest thing.

The internet just isn't a great place to try and have these discussions at times. So much can be read into in a post depending on what we bring to the table that particular day. So one person's attempts to be helpful and share resources could be construed by another person as someone acting like everyone else isn't smart enough to look into it for themselves.

I'm moody and hormonal today so forgive me for bringing to the table my frustrations as well.

[brittone2]

Again though, that could be a false dichotomy ;) I feel like I parent by instinct too. Yep, I read books here and there about parenting, but I think the books I read just reinforce my instincts. I don't do "AP" (whatever that means to any given person) because a book like Dr. Sears told me to. I was AP in my heart (it just resonates with me) before I knew what it was called, kwim?

And no, my child isn't a perfect angel every day. But I'm happy with how he's turning out, and I'm sure that most parents here feel the same way about their own kids no matter what approach they've taken.

[barbarhow]

>You're right--I do feel judged. As I mentioned, your original
>statement about parents who only use "no" for dangerous
>situations was judging. The continual defense of the use of
>"no" does seem judgemental too. I'm just being honest here.
>

I have to say Holli that you are choosing to feel judged. I am not judging you. I questioned a practice(prior to you even posting), referring to mothers that I, personally know, and mentioned my experience with it. I was not judging anyone but expressing an opinion on a topic. Unfortunately, you have chosen to interpret my statements negatively. That is your choice.
You chose to enter the discussion and then accused me of criticizing your parenting techniques. Ain't so. And I choose not to accept YOUR judgement of me as a basher of AP parenting or of you specifically.
Anyone who knows me and knows what I post understands that I am extremely nonjudgemental, empathetic and very open to hearing alternative ways of facing situations. I am sorry that you cannot see me the way I am.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[holliam]

(note: this is a response to several messages, not just Rashmi!)

Yep, I envy those parents with kids who listen to them at every instance. Where are they, anyway?

Not my kid. Just because I explain things doesn't mean she likes it all the time. She has tantrums. She is defiant. She is rebellious. It's part of being almost 2.

I didn't like how my parents raised me so thus I chose not to trust intuition/familial history. Sounds like some of you were lucky to have been raised with love and trust and can pass that on to your children without consulting outside sources. I envy you!

Some of us had to learn to love and trust to be able to pass it on to our children. As a researcher, I naturally research everything, gather it together in my brain, and choose what is best for us. Doesn't make me a better parent, just one who has to work harder.

The irony of this whole discussion is that I only entered into it because Barbara expressed disbelief at parents who only use "no" for dangerous situations and because there was a clear implication in many of the discussion that it leads to permissive parenting.

All along I have said that it does not matter what type of parenting style you choose, anyone can be permissive. I chose "traditional" as my word choice simply for lack of anything else. If I had chosen "mainstream" or "what my parents or sisters did" I'm sure someone would have commented on that too.

Holli

[jbowman]

I think that we all follow our instincts and find what is right for our children. I think that's true of all the parents here. It's fun--and educational--to read about everyone's parenting approaches. I think it makes us all better parents! :)

I have no idea what I "am," but I know that holding my babies all of the time works for them (and me too, LOL. I love holding babies!)!

[barbarhow]

There are not just 2 styles of parenting; AP and then everything else. The world is filled with one hell of a lot of grey. (and not just what is on my head :-)) I happen to practice many components that would be lumped under AP. I don't consider myself an AP parent. In fact I choose NOT to label myself. I am in the "I am the best parent I can be" camp. I integrate from all sources including AP, Sears, Weissbluth, some of the christian mothering techniques., instinct, history, my clinical experience and so many other sources. That is what works for OUR family.
My point is that there IS no opposite of AP and I happen to think that it is counterproductive and downright offenisve to try and set those viewpoints as opposing.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[Jeanne]

ITA Barbara.

[brittone2]

Oh I wholeheartedly agree as well, but online, it becomes difficult to explain oneself sometimes without "labeling." I certainly don't think there is a clear cut way of dividing things nor should there be.

In fact there was a post a while back asking "what is AP" and I think most everyone agreed there is no set checklist that means you are or aren't an AP.

[holliam]

Yea, and I think the only reference that even mentioned AP and traditional was when I was actually trying to be light-hearted and list a couple of different parenting styles--including alien intervention--to indicate that it just did not matter. But, that has gotten completely misconstrued in this thread.

Holli

[barbarhow]

Actually I was verbalizing that I did not understand how it could work. I never stated disbeliei. You responded as though I attacked. I did not. You immediately chose to become defensive about something that was not directed at you.
It's funny but even after this whole long thread I still don't understand how it is possible to not use the word no, nor am I any closer to understanding why people would choose not to. It is a word. Not an action, not a valuation. puzzling to me. But that is JMHO.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

Edited for grammar

[Jeanne]

My use of the word "traditional" didn't come from your reference at all Holli. That is simply what I call it for myself when I have to describe it to someone. I consider my style to be a mix of everything. Traditional to me incorporates some of the parenting techniques my own parents used - hence my use of the word. The use of AP for me is another way for me describes some of the principles I pull from as certainly breastfeeding, co sleeping, slinging, etc... fit AP.

[kijip]

The flip of that is that many of the threads I see on, say, TV are started by people that do no or little TV. It seems self congratulatary to me sometimes. I watch less TV than the average american by far (did not grow up with it, don't pay for cable etc) and even I feel that sometimes there is an implication that I am doing damage to my son by letting him watch videos...it really goes both ways Beth.

[kijip]

The flip of that is that many of the threads I see on, say, TV are started by people that do no or little TV. It seems self congratulatary to me sometimes. I watch less TV than the average american by far (did not grow up with it, don't pay for cable etc) and even I feel that sometimes there is an implication that I am doing damage to my son by letting him watch videos...it really goes both ways Beth.

[Jeanne]

I also agree with you on this Beth. That is why I used the words to describe what I do. However, it does appear that some take those words too literally - and not just on this board. I once used the word traditional to my Aunt and she thought I meant spanking. People can pull from some traditional parenting methods without spanking or barking orders. People can also pull from AP without agreeing with every principal listed for AP. I guess I just assume that people will not rush to make a judgment on others or get offended if the minutia of detail isn't listed.

[kijip]

>I am so tentatively jumping in here, just on your point! I
>have recently become a SAHM/WAHM and DH still goes to work
>every day. He feels kind of left out and jealous of DD's and
>my time together, so when he DOES spend time with her he asks
>her permission for EVERYTHING, which makes DD (2.5) really
>cranky and irritable with him. She much prefers that I tell
>her what we're going to do (and I try to make it sound like
>fun, lol).


LOL. I say please when I am asking Toby, say, to say pass the peas at dinner but you'll never here me say "Toby, will you please pick up your blocks". He needs to know that it is not an optional deal. I model good behavoir by picking up my blocks (LOL) and expect him to know that certain things are never up for negotiation. I often say something like "Do you want to go to the library or the beach?" But never "Would you please go to the beach with me" LOL. I had luck with my husband (he did the same sort of permission seeking thing with Toby sometimes) by asking him if he would really NOT go to the drycleaners if Toby answered "Not today, maybe tomorrow" when asked by my husband "Do you want to stop at the drycleaners, please" to Toby. I try to only ask Toby questions that he has the power to answer. LOL.

[Jeanne]

I am also one to not quite fully understand what is negative about the word "no". No in itself is a negative, but negatives are everywhere as is can't, won't, shouldn't, don't, will not, etc...

"No" with redirection is a negative reinforced with a positive thereby offering a reason a child can understand, grasp, and take forward to it's next logical step. To me, this creates a thinker. This creates a person who can understand that negative consequences result when a "no" is violated.

[holliam]

Actually, you did indicate disbelief by stating that those mothers "claim" to restrict their use of "no". You also immediately made a clear link to not saying "no" to being permissive.

But, I was not immediately defensive. I actually was pretty lighthearted at first but then when I am continually asked again and again how I could possibly do something that I really do, then yea, defensive.

Does it really matter if you don't understand how it is possible to not use "no"? Does it really matter if I don't understand why people use "no"?

IMO, it just doesn't really matter. My whole point in this whole discussion was that ANY TYPE OF PARENTING STYLE CAN BE PERMISSIVE and ANY TYPE OF PARENTING STYLE CAN BE LOVING AND BOUNDARY SETTING. I have said that very consistently.

I think that is what most of us are saying and are somehow getting bogged down in having to justify our choices. It just does not matter if I understand your methods nor if you understand mine.

I have to admit that this is why I tend to avoid even discussing *why* I do things. Inevitably, someone ends up saying they don't understand it anyway. But, I still insist that it just doesn't matter if you understand it. It's simply what I do! I got questioned for NOT explaining why I wanted a specific type of doll for my daughter in Around the House.

I honestly never know when I am supposed to provide my explanations or not, like Beth mentioned. Sometimes it seems that people want to know, and other times it does not. It feels like baiting at times. It's just strange.

Holli

[holliam]

Really? I had no idea those threads are started by people who watch little TV.

I guess I don't understand why folks think there is an implication about this. By stating that research says xyz or AAP recommends 123 does not mean to be a judgement. It's simply a sharing of information and resources, allowing people to do with it what they will.

The point of research, particularly social science research, is that no theories can ever be proven, just disproven. So, even if a bunch of studies says lmnop, an equal number of them often indicate qrstu. It's just up to us all to weed through, ignore, choose, whatever, for our families.

But, I know personally, when I answer posts, it has no underlying implication that everyone else is doing their kids harm.

I'll say it again. My parents sucked at parenting. I do not want to be them. In my efforts to avoid that, I read and research everything, and also rely upon my experience in academia and as a nanny in my college years.

Sometimes I forget that not everyone evaluates situations like I do. I don't intend to come off sounding omniscient. Heck, most days I am just hoping that Mari has actually bonded to us and really thinks we're her parents.

Parenting is hard, and I don't think anyone here believes that their family has found the golden key. But, it is even harder when you feel constantly challenged.

Let me spin this another way. I feel like I do things against the "norm" of American society daily. I cloth diaper my child. I avoid TV. I avoid plastic. I am a fat white mama with a beautiful hispanic adopted daughter. I do any number of things that are considered "out there" by the "average" American. It gets really hard to constantly be ready to address any of 100 questions we might be asked in a given day. I wish some days I could just be "normal" and not overthink everything. But, that's who I am. I accept that people are going to ask about my daughter--whether it's the color of her skin or her diaper. We stand out, and I think sometimes it just gets old and it makes me more sensitive than I should be, even though I am happy with our choices.

Holli

[SummerBaby]

My thoughts exactly.

Val
Mom to Madeline
7/28/04

[Jeanne]

This is a very good point. I too often encounter the same despite being one who rarely watches TV herself. However, I do let my girls watch videos and certain TV shows that I find educational such as Veggie Tales. I know there are a lot of people who find Veggie Tales to be too religious but I find they just teach simply moral messages. And I am not particularly religious myself. I'm also a huge fan of the Discovery Channel and feel there are terrific programs on nature to watch.

Now of course there are several reasons that folks have for not allowing TV – images being one of them. I’m not that well read on it to really make that decision and the truth is, we are out of the house all day anyway so TV really isn’t a big deal in my house. But having said that, I've heard the other reason for no TV to be one of marketing to kids. And while I do find that deplorable, I really do think that it's in my control. So what if my kid sees a commercial for Dora or Disney cereal, videos, clothing, etc... and asks for it? Doesn't mean I'm going to buy it. And I'll tell them why I'm not going to buy it. I control that, the marketers don't - at least for now.

I have no illusions about what I will be facing as they grow up. And I'll say it again - seen it with my friend's kids. It's not going to be easy. But I will try my best to instill a certain value system into them and go from there.

[trumansmom]

Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread. However, I have read enough to see it's going downhill and treading in dangerous waters. (I feel like I should throw in a sports metaphor to make sure all my cliches are covered, but I can't think of any.)

Please, please, please play nice. I'm up to my eyeballs in 4 year old today, but will be keeping an eye on this thread.

Thanks-

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04

[Piglet]

Well, there is always Detachment Parenting... that is my preferred parenting practice ;)

[Jeanne]

Sign is right. And bummed. Another good discussion that I am getting a lot out of in terms of getting to know people's style and views. I don't see anything overtly offensive here unless people are sending alerts to you.

[Piglet]

My dad's slogan was that he "runs a benevolent dictatorship". I love my dad to pieces and love his parenting style.

[Vajrastorm]

I'll stand up and say I aspire to consensual parenting. That's even crazier than not saying no. :7 (Note - I'm approaching this lightheartedly, but I'm serious about the parenting approach.)

I do have "no" in my toolbox. I have most things, outside of punishment, in my toolbox. Once in a while I slip and act punishing. My goal, however, is to reach mutually acceptable solutions as much as possible, and to not revert to punishment when she does things I find undesirable.

I can't imagine NOT getting my dd's input on a vacation or restaurant. She's on the young side, so I do a lot planning based on what I think she'll enjoy or be able to handle.

I frequently ask her what she'd like to do that day. If I need to do an errand and drag her along, we'll do something of her choice after. I plan extra time into Target trips because she likes to spend at least 30 minutes wandering the toy section.

If it isn't going to kill or maim her, and it isn't going to interfere with other people, it is up for negotiation in this household. We often sit down and negotiate our respective wants. She's 2 and a half, but she understands the give and take of bargaining.

This is all a work in progress. Like Holli, I was raised by parents who did things in a way I have no desire to repeat. I often have to check my impulses against my ideals. Sometimes impulse wins. ;) Still, I'm really happy to be on this journey. Parenting brings out the best and the worst in me, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to nourish the best and face the worst.

/end cheesiness

[kijip]

Here are a few threads started by people that were either no, limited or feeling guilty about TV:

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=320033&mesg_id=320033&listing_type=search

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=77249&mesg_id=77249&listing_type=search

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=300614&mesg_id=300614&listing_type=search


http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=300066&mesg_id=300066&listing_type=search

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=283525&mesg_id=283525&page=

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=37&topic_id=104779&mesg_id=104779&listing_type=search

I am sure that there are threads started by "TV families" LOL but honestly I don't recall any specfic ones...but that is my bias.

What I find amusing about the TV debate is that I reckon my own kid watches far less than some I know IRL whose parents make a big deal about limiting TV. And I know I watch less...you and I are similar in that TV only entered our house after marriage and only as a gift. I drag it in and out of the closet when I want to use it. LOL.

[Marisa6826]

All Jeanne (the Mod) and I are doing is gently reminding people to be aware of what they're saying. A lot of feelings are surfacing, and nobody wants to unintentionally (or intentionally) step on toes.

So, I don't know what the problem is. It's not unusual at all to have Mods pop in and remind everybody to act like the ladies they are when threads are getting this complicated and somewhat heated.

-m

[holliam]

Okay, I see what you are saying. But, don't you think those people were genuinely asking for input? I don't think they were dangling a fishing pole hoping to have a slam fest against TV watching families.

If we compared the number of threads started by non-TV families to the number of threads about TV shows, we might have some interesting data too. ;)

Want to know how I finally got the TV out of my living room? DH wants an aquarium and we had no room for it unless he removed the TV. muahhahahah! ;)

Holli

[jesseandgrace]

I actually think that "NO" is really just a word, and it is not all that different than "please do xyz instead". I didn't read the full article, but my guess is that unlike the parents here that are limiting "no" but are still helping to protect and guide their children, there are some who don't say "no" and really do nothing else. It doesn't sound like anyone here does that, but if I'm wrong I would love to hear how it works. I dream of a dictatorship, but I've been overthrown here by a veryy bossy two year old soon to be 3, and the strongest willed five year old who is absolutely positive he is one of the adults. Thank god I can still boss around my dh :).

I was in the quiet section of the library meant for quiet study only, and I can't tell you how many parents were looking at books letting their kids run around yelling, jumping, playing. It was really frustrating as there wasn't so much as a "indoor voices in the library uttered". I think that is just a lack of respect for the rest of the people there. As a society we deserve some places that are quiet and peaceful, and we need to teach our kids respect whether we use the word no or not. It sounds like so far we all agree on that, we just have different ways of trying to get there.

When I was younger and living in Switzerland there was a story going around, it was supposedly a 'friend" who had witnessed it, but it might have been one of those urban tales. In a nutshell there was a boy of around 4 and he repeatedly was kicking the leg of an elderly man riding a bus. The man asked the mom if she could please tell him to stop and she said "I'm sorry, we are raising him not to ever hear no from us." and the boy kept kicking the man. Then, a young man walked over slapped the mother across the face and said "I was raised the same way." This al made me remembver that story, I wonder if it was true!

[Marisa6826]

Too bad there's not an international version of Snopes ;)

-m

[trumansmom]

Although the discussion is chock full of all kinds of interesting information, it also is showing signs of possible problems. Obviously, it hasn't turned completely or I would have locked it instead of warning about it. That's what warnings are for - to keep things from going south.

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04

[Vajrastorm]

ROFL. Love it!

[papal]

Want to trade? I'll take Alice. You can have Leela. heehee.

[papal]

What she said!!
Truly, I have no judgement about how you parent if it works for you!! Who am I to talk when I just had to hastily exit a playdate because Leela hit her friend on the nose.. she threw the biggest tantrum.. she knew exactly what she did (she told me in the car) but showed no remorse. She was angry that she had to LEAVE but not sorry that she hit.
So clearly I am not one to speak about parenting. As Mary says ' Some days work. Some days don't'. If I have any parenting matra.. that would be it.

[Piglet]

Your post reminded me of the best shopping excursion I ever witnessed. I didn't have kids, but was in awe of a mom out shopping with her young (about 4 year old) DD. I was a bit nosy, so I followed them for a bit. The mom would make a game of the trip - she would say that she wanted to pop into the book store and then she would ask her daughter and where do YOU want to go next? The little girl would point to some store (whether it was a shoe store, clothing store, music store, etc.) and the mom would take her there without any question or disapproval for her choice. This continued for a while and the mom was able to get her errands done while the DD had fun loking at all the pretty CDs or whatever. I sometimes get pretty caught up in getting my errands done with little regard for DS's desires to look around. I think a lot of it stems from lack of time, but I still aspire to that style.

From the other end of things, I have a 4 year old DS that NEEDS to know WHY about everything and anything. Granted, he is very inquisitive about nature, science, history, etc. If you call him to the table, he will ask why (because dinner is ready), if you tell him to go brush his teeth, he will ask why (because cavities are no fun), if you tell him to wipe his bum... well you get the picture. Eventually we just need to say, "because I said so!".

I think a lot of his WHY-ing comes from my overly talkative nature. I have always explained things to him like he was an adult and while he can comprehend a great deal, it set him up for NEEDING to know the reasoning for everything. He learned that there has to be a reason before he will do something. That stopped working for us once DS2 came on the scene. I found I had less and less time to explain the same thing over and over again (i.e. the bum wiping and toothbrushing). I had to give shorter answers and sometimes a 'no' worked the best (sometimes not so much). I still communicate with him like he is an adult, but I also put my foot down on things that are not negotiable. He is getting better about just doing something without the back and forth. I still give him plenty of choices and I try to incorporate his and DS2's needs into my routine (like the mom in the mall) to make things mroe enjoyable for both of us. Fortunately he has always been a good kid - he just has a really mellow personality. I think that every parenting style will evolve as the kids get older and start pushing different buttons. Things that worked on a 2 year old don't always work on a 5 year old... you know... evolve or die :)

[papal]

Thanks for pointing this out. I often use 'Please' when I need not be doing so when asking Leela to do something ("please can you apologize to xxx"). What a dumb thing to do! D'oh!
I do think it is counterproductive. Anyway, I guess just seeing it in writing really hit home to me. Thanks!

[KBecks]

Generally, I think people are trying to play nice, but it's gotten emotional / sensitive in a few hot spots. But its definitely civil. Of course, it makes perfect sense that people are passionate about their parenting choices, especially if a lot of thought has been put into them.

Gotta love the diversity of the BBB boards!

As a side note, Alek's first word was "no". I worried whether he would develop a negative life attitude (I'm a natural worrier!) But really, he just liked the line in Moo Baa La La La, where the reader corrects the story, because pigs don't say "la la la."

Alek will also say "no no no" if you prompt him by saying "yes yes yes." But more recently he says "ya ya ya" and "no no" with about equal frequency. Anyway, at this age, I'm just happy he's saying anything -- it's still a joy to hear him speak any words.

We use no, but not a lot. My style has always been -- go with the flow -- reading different philosophies is helpful because it gives me fuel for thought -- I read Magda Gerber the Self Confident Baby, and as with anything, I'm taking what I think will help me and leaving the rest.

[LoveMyBabyBeans]

Holli, you are wonderful! Just reading about all of the research you put into your parenting exhausts me. I have time to sort of keep my house clean, play with and care for my kids, spend time with my husband, and socialize a bit with some friends. I wish I had the energy and enthusiasm to research the harm or benefit of using the little word "no" when it comes to parenting my children.

[kath68]

I hear myself doing the "please" thing at inappropriate times, too. It drives me nuts that I do it and I am trying to break the habit. It sends such a confusing message -- I can see it in his response (or lack thereof). Charlie does much better when I speak more decisively with him.

[wagner36]

>My goal, however, is to reach mutually acceptable
>solutions as much as possible, and to not revert to punishment
>when she does things I find undesirable.


Ditto. I can't really say it better - I tried, but I just keep deleting it.

[kijip]

>Okay, I see what you are saying. But, don't you think those
>people were genuinely asking for input? I don't think they
>were dangling a fishing pole hoping to have a slam fest
>against TV watching families.

Sometimes yes, I do think people are asking for input. Sometimes though, as will all input I think it becomes reassurance.

>If we compared the number of threads started by non-TV
>families to the number of threads about TV shows, we might
>have some interesting data too. ;)

Maybe!

>Want to know how I finally got the TV out of my living room?
>DH wants an aquarium and we had no room for it unless he
>removed the TV. muahhahahah! ;)

We never had it in the room. I just refuse to have any electronic device be the center of attention in my living space---my computer needs to fit in a drawer, my tv must be small enough to lug around, LOL.

[lisams]

"From the other end of things, I have a 4 year old DS that NEEDS to know WHY about everything and anything."

OMG that is so DD!! Everything is followed by "why?" and not in confrontational way, but as in a "wanting to get it" kind of way. I'll never forget when she saw a man smoking outside the mall and she asked why he was "sucking on a smoking stick". Or why babies grow inside of mommies. Man it's getting tougher the older she gets!

I agree though, as they get older you change how you parent. What I thought worked so well at 2 would not cut it at 3 1/2. It's a never ending education!

[JulieL]

I think the word no is a very useful word. When people use it, well that's up to them. But I don't think it's negative. I mean we say "When a girl says NO to sex, she mean's NO!!!" I think this is a tool to use. Saying it's purely negative isn't so. We need this power to enforce some issues. A child can feel empowered saying NO to a stranger who trys to lure them away and to million other bad events.

eta: that if a child thinks no is only negative, a child may be confused to use in the right way - in a negative situation

[kijip]

Yeah, I was thinking that too. I want my kid to understand that when his teacher or his girlfriend or the judge at his sentancing hearing says NO that it really means something...LOL. ;) No is a word that has a lot of power with a lot of people. And the teacher, the girlfriend or judge in my little far off example don't need a reason other than that is just the way it is/the law.

[holliam]

Yea, well, you forget that I had a lot of time spent waiting to be a mom! After lost pregnancies, lost adoption, etc. I had a lot of free time with motherhood on the brain! :)

I don't get a chance to keep up nearly as much now but I still try to read at least one or two books a month.

Holli

[holliam]

I totally agree! This is one of the reasons we use it for truly dangerous situations so that it does not lose its impact.

Holli

[barbarhow]

If a child asks for something in a store and you don't want to buy it for him-what do you say?
Or if a child asks a question that is a yes or no answer-how do you answer?
Just curious.

Oh-and the "you" is meant on a general way.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[papal]

"No, you can't have it.".

[Wife_and_mommy]

nak

i have a non-AP friend who says "we're not spending our $$ on ____" she says that so as not to give her dc's a poverty mindset i.e. "we can't afford _____" but i like it for any reason.


Elizabeth
mommy to DD(April '04) and DS(January '06)

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

[stella]

I think "no" means "don't do it" or "stop that."
I say it all the time. It keeps them safe. It keeps them from jumping from the couch to the chair; it keeps them from whining; it keeps them from wrestling and screeching right by my feet while I'm on the phone.
It doesn't always work, but I have yet to find any technique that does.

[stella]

As I mentioned previously, I say no all the time.
In a store, though, I often say, in a tiresome, obnoxious, singsong voice "that's not on our list!"

[brittone2]

Well, my kiddo is just over 2 and therefore doesn't really know much about things leaving stores yet unless they are on my list ;) I don't buy him stuff that he picks up unless it is on my list so he doesn't expect it to go home with us.

Sometimes he carries it around the store for a while and then I tell him it needs to stay at the store for other people. He puts it back.

Nope, it won't work forever but it works for now. I am not implying we aren't fluid...we adjust and change as necessary but in the future I can think of plenty of responses that explain why we aren't buying XYZ.

Or you could say "no." Your choice ;)

[barbarhow]

As Mary says
>' Some days work. Some days don't'. If I have any parenting
>matra.. that would be it.

I have repeated her mantra many a time to many people. I agree with it wholeheartedly!



Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[brittone2]

Oh geeze...we've left places before too. That's what I'm saying...we aren't permissive. If Logan can't behave, we leave where we are as well. It doesn't mean he leaves with a smile, believe me!! Today he didn't want to get into the carseat and I was in a rush. I told him it was time to go now, and carried him kicking and screaming to the car. He got over it in about 45 seconds. He has his tantrums...believe you me ;)

Again, I don't think my not saying no means I'm permissive and my kid gets to do what he wants to do.

I don't *ask* him *if* he wants to do something when it needs done. I do try to engage his cooperation because it is easier, but some things (like diaper changes) happen whether he wants to or not. I often tell him he can pick a spot by the count of three or I am picking it for him. Most of the time he picks a spot and gets ready for me to change his diaper. Sometimes I pick him up kicking and screaming and pick the spot for him.

I'm not implying my kid does all things with a smile by any means.

ETA: we have definite boundaries and things that have to be done. I do however pick some battles and don't engage in things that don't really matter to me. But we are very firm on the things that must happen and there's no negotiating. I do try to give him choices that are acceptable to me (which toothbrush to use, but not whether or not we are brushing teeth). Yes, we have boundaries, and they may be different from other people, but they are absolutely there and are enforced. I just enforce them differently than some other people do I guess.

[brittone2]

I also see what you are saying, but I think that is true of a number of topics that are posted on here. Is a thread about why people choose unmedicated childbirth self congratulatory? Reasons to breastfeed? I mean, to me it seems like a huge number of topics could be considered self congratulatory.

I've never analyzed who starts threads about tv/no TV, etc. for whether they are started by TV users or non users. I guess naively I usually assume people are looking for genuine input...maybe I just don't get message boards <shrug>.

[brittone2]

We do it sometimes too but try hard not to. We kind of laugh at ourselves when we accidentally DO ask DS if he "wants" to do something (that he NEEDS to do) when we didn't mean to. Generally we're pretty good about not doing that, but when we ask, we look at each other and laugh when he says "no"...yeah, we shouldn't have asked in the first place ;)

The first place that made me really think about not saying "please" was the gentlechristianmothers board. It kind of seems like the polite thing to do but I can see how in toddler speak it looks like a request. So we don't generally say "please" to things that aren't optional, although we slip up often enough ;)

[brittone2]

Yeah that, and my child still manages to say NO when he means it even though we don't say it often to him ;) That doesn't mean things don't happen because he says "no" but he certainly has no problem asserting his opinion.

[barbarhow]

I think that some women do believe that they are superior for having an unmedicated birth and I think that has been illustrated many times here on the boards. And I agree that there are a huge number of topics that could be considered self congratulatory or downright bragging in nature. This would include some of the posts about Christmas gift lists, clothing, home improvements....I could go on.
I think that there are many people who post here because they need validation for their parenting, birthing, life choices rahter than because they are looking for information. That said I have learned so much een from these threads that most of the time it doesn't bother me.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[Bethann31]

Ok, I've stayed out of this one, but I'm going to chime in and remind everyone that I'm a longtime BTDT parent. My children get told "no" all the time. Just like they are going to be told "no" by a teacher, an employer, a friend or perhaps the girl they want to have sex with. I want them to know that "no" means no. I don't want them to wonder what no really means, since they have never heard it before, or think it only applies to running into the street. "No" is a very important word in the English Language. When I look at Katherine and say, "no ma'am" she knows that she must stop what she is doing and we will perhaps talk about it. I've read most of the responses on this thread, so tonight when I asked if she wanted something at dinner and she looked at me and said, "no thank you" I thought of how proud I am that she is able to express herself in that way.

I want my children to know the word no. I DON'T feel it's necessary to offer an explanation for everything, to my 16 year old or my 2 year old. Sometimes the answer is just "no." I hope like crazy when some of your children get older that they know that no means no, especially when they get to those tricky teenage years and have to deal with the opposite sex or employers or high school teachers.

Beth
mom to:

Josh 3/90
Mollie 4/92
Jeffrey 12/94
Katherine 6/03


http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/lamlamsvi20030604_4_Katherine+Grace+is.png

[KBecks]

OK, I'm curious now, and genuinely. How do you define punishment? Does that mean -- no time outs, no negative consequences at all (like taking a toy away)? Obviously, I get no physical punishment... but I sense that what you're saying is no punishment of any kind, is that right??

I understand and appreciate the intent to recognize and meet the needs of children, and to arrange life in ways that work well for both parents and children. That makes perfect sense and it seems like a wonderful way to nurture a child as long as there's balance.

I also understand the benefits of reinforcing positive behavior vs. punishing negative behavior, but I don't know how it's possible to use only positive reinforcement? How do you teach consequences w/o a negative? And, I've never really thought about parenting w/o teaching consequences for undesirable behavior, it seems like something you "have" to do. Is there another way?

Maybe it's the language that's confusing me, or maybe I just haven't run into this way of doing things before.

ETA: I'm also wondering if the consequences / punishment thing is something that you might be saving for a later age? I'm thinking of the old -- broke Mr. Johnson's window, now you'll have to earn the money to pay him back kind of thing....

Or, do you simply withhold rewards as a "non-punishment" punishment?? As in -- no chores done, no special treat??

I don't think I'm getting it, thanks in advance for any help.

Thanks!

[brittone2]

Again, I think that is much more an issue of whether boundaries exist in a household rather than whether or not a given word is used.

We have boundaries, they are enforced (can I say this a few more times?). DS gets that. It isn't as though he runs around willy-nilly doing whatever he likes because we opt not to use the acutal word "no" anymore than we have to (very important situations).

I'm glad that what you've done has worked for you. I'm happy with the way things are going here and I'm sure that my son will understand boundaries exist in his teens and adult years regardless of the particular word I use.

ETA: I'm not implying that this is true of parents here, but in my IRL experiences I see far more parents that use the word "no" over and over without actually enforcing the meaning of it. Again, you can be permissive or you can have firm boundaries regardless of your choice of words. I don't think it is at all fair to suggest that someone who doesn't use "no" regularly in their house is going to have a child incapable of understanding boundaries, etc. as an adult without really knowing what their IRL parenting looks like.

[barbarhow]

Beautifully said Bethann. :-)
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[elliput]

<snip>But really, he just liked the line in Moo Baa La La La, where the reader corrects the story, because pigs don't say "la la la."

LOL! Right on cue, my DD shakes her head when I start to read this line.

[Vajrastorm]

Does anyone really worry that a child might grow up not understanding what "no" means if the parents don't use it as a command? I think you'd need to keep a kid in a box to accomplish that, and if you are keeping your kid in a box he has much bigger problems than knowing what "no" means.

I use "no," although I try and limit it, so I may not be the perfect person to address the intentions of those who take no out of the parenting toolbox, but my understanding has been that not using no means not using no as a command and framing negative responses in an alternate way. [As in "Can I watch a movie?" "It isn't movie time." rather than "No."]

I have never seen a parent argue that no should be banished from the English language. Once in a while you hear the nutty story of an overly permissive parent who uses the excuse of not saying no, but the people I'm familiar with who don't use no are not permissive. They're creative and dedicated to finding an alternate route to guide their children.

I don't worry that my dd, or the children of those who don't use no at all (none of whom have posted on this thread) are going to engage in date rate.

[brittone2]

Well, that would be a dissertation.

To me discipline equals to teach. IMO we can teach DS without punishing. We don't do time outs, spanking, yelling (well, yes, occasionally I snap on a bad day), etc.

Some consequences occur naturally without being imposed. I don't always need to impose something extra to get my point across (when DS was young and would smack me, bite me, or whatever I would put him down and walk away. My natural reaction is that hurts and I don't want to be around someone that is hurting me. It isn't a deliberate attempt on my part to "punish" him). Similarly, we aren't big external praisers. I try to have DS focus on how it feels good inside to help/share/etc. rather than telling him how proud *I* am of him for sharing.

A lot of it IMO has to do with a parent's mindset. I don't think that you need to be punitive or adversarial to teach your child proper behavior.

Really, it is such a broad topic I could write pages about it...but no, we don't punish.

That doesn't mean DS doesn't get removed from certain situations kicking and screaming, but it isn't followed by a "punishment" for a tantrum. If he took another child's toy and wouldn't give it back, I'd try to engage his cooperation (I'd tell him it needs to be returned to the child) and if he didn't, yes, I'd remove it and give it to the other child. I'd encourage turn taking if the other child was up to it and I knew the parents.

Gentlechristianmothers has a lot of information about this topic if you are truly interested in reading about it. Basically a major premise around here is we say it, then make it happen. It isn't doled out like "punishment" though. He doesn't always like me "making thigns happen" but I'm okay with him not being happy about certain things.

Gotta run for now.

[KBecks]

I hope like crazy when some of your children get older that they know that no means no, especially when they get to those tricky teenage years and have to deal with the opposite sex or employers or high school teachers.
---------

I'll venture to say that all the children here will learn how to use and respond to NO, regardless of how it's being handled in the toddler years. I think it is especially important though, for kids to have the *confidence* to say no and the *respectfulness* to obey a no.... but that's another subject, and I think that regardless of style, all the mamas here will achieve that confidence and respect from their children, no matter what means they use to instill it.

Now, we could debate which "nos" deserve to be obeyed, and which nos should be objected to..... but, let's not. I'm also very confident that the kids of the mamas here will learn to think for themselves and use their values to discern reasonable and unreasonable requests.

(end of ramble!!)

[aliceinwonderland]

Perhaps I am just jealous of the people with the strength/time/patience/whatever to answer their child in paragraphs everytime, but after two weeks of being a SAHM and now with DH out of town, I know it must be a vastly different genetic code, one far superior to mine!! :)

[megs4413]

Have to agree with this. I know I will get flamed for this, but I was shocked at first when I came to the baby BARGAINS board and found topics referencing extremely expensive, furniture, designer clothing, etc....

Having said that, I find such useful information and caring voices on the boards that it's become a part of my everday routine. I finally realized that we all come from such different worldviews and realities that we comprise an incredibly diverse and rich landscape, in which, almost all opinions can be shared/debated! It's intense at times (as in this thread) and usually extremely enlightening. I would never have known to keep my daughter RF in her car seat as long as I could had it not been for these boards. I would have called my Ped about 100 times when DD was younger had it not been for these boards calming me down. I would never have bought a britax (cause we couldn't really afford it at the time) had it not been for these boards. I would never have made it my life's mission as a Mommy to be up to speed on all things baby all the time. These boards have made me understand that there is more out there than what you can find at BRU or even in your ped's office and the best I can do is try to stay current.

[holliam]

Never mind. I've realized that I need to move on from this discussion and place. It is not benefitting me or my family at this point.

[mudder17]

Ah, seeing this in black and white makes me realize how silly it is for me to say please to Kaya when I want her to clean up or lie down for a diaper change. Now that I think about it, "Please" is sort of asking for permission isn't it? I think I'll at least try to break myself of the habit for situations where I don't want her to really have a choice. Thanks.

Eileen

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/candle.gif for Leah
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif

http://tickers.baby-gaga.com/t/catcatcvi20040222_-6_Kaya+is.png
Kaya will be a sister, ~11/14/06!

[elliput]

And your post reminded me of the worst shopping excursion I ever witnessed. I was at an office supply store right before the start of school last year and saw this disturbing scene play out in front of me. A woman was with her daughter of about 8 or 9 I am guessing, and they had their list of school supplies to buy. The mother would look at the list, pick up an item that was not specified on the list and proceed to tell her daughter in great detail what was *wrong* with the item. Intermittently in this diatribe of *this is wrong*, the mother would interject with how much of a *PITA* this shopping trip was and how much she disliked having to buy school supplies.

I would like to imagine that this woman was trying to teach her daughter to be discerning by evaluating the school list and items, however her approach, IMO, left much to be desired.

What I witnessed was the spirit of a young girl being completely squashed by her mother, and it showed in her demeanor. She was withdrawn and sullen. Her mother would ask her a question and then not bother to even wait for an answer before moving on to the next negative statement. This child was being told indirectly that everything about her was *wrong* and that she was a *PITA*.

I can still see this young girl's face and hear this woman's voice. And I still feel sick to my stomach thinking about it, as I know this child will be affected by it for the rest of her life. She is living a life of one big "no".

[lizajane]

holli-
i am sorry you are hurt. i really respect your parenting style. (what i know from reading your posts!) i choose to use the word, but i choose to explain. too. i choose to redirect. i choose to set limits and also to use gentle discipline. i do not choose to lose my cool and yell, "NO!" but it happens. i am sad when it does. i have flaws, big surprise.

i think the problem here is that we are all caught up in semantics when the point is that many, like you, holli, choose a "redirection for a reason" type of discipline whereas others choose a variation, maybe a "no and redirect" type? or a "trust me that i know what is best" type? i think we can agree that we know what is better for a toddler more often than the toddler does when it comes to danger or unacceptable behavior.

can i share some perspective?

today at the park i witnessed a horror. a 3ish year old was crying and screaming (and begging) "mommy, mommy, mommy" and the mother was SCREAMING back at her, "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!" and when the child continued to beg, "MOMMY MOMMY MOMMY" the woman hit her child with a belt that she took off of her waist. and when the brother said to his mother, "all you did was ask her where her SODA (!!!!!!) and cookie was" the mother said, "yeah, and i am sick of her crying like this. and i am going to start ***tearing her ass up*****." then she threatened to make the child wait in the car (i thought she might be safer there) and when the child finally did calm down, she played in the sand with her brother, my 3 year old, my 1 year old and my two friends' 3 years old like an ANGEL.

[mharling]

>I actually think that "NO" is really just a word, and it is
>not all that different than "please do xyz instead".

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding!!!!!!!!! I find it somewhat ironic that this thread took the direction of saying no or not saying no when the article was really about letting children do what they want. Regardless of the semantics, the end result is the same, is it not?

Mary - Some days work. Some days don't.

[kijip]

As a fellow child rape survivor, I am sorry for what you went through but I fail to see what anyone has said here has to do with their firm belief that no is not an uncreative parenting shortcut. In all honesty I DO know kids and adults that realy DON'T understand that no means no. Thet are the result of households where no was overused, unenforced or just not used at all. No one said that if a rape victim knew the word NO they would not be raped----the implication was that the abuser (the rapist) could be aided by growing up with a disregard to other people's needs/feeling/wishes expressed by the word no because the word is up for debate. I understand that you don't want to duplicate your parent's mistakes but that does not mean that parents that say no are in anyway duplicating your parents mistakes.

As a person who has returned to her desk at work to find an unknown toddler crawling over her desk, leading around a mother who then lectured me that she never told the girl no and that she was (her words) child led, I can honestly say that I have seen the extreme of this anti-no stuff played out. I don't think anyone here meets this extreme but I scoff at the notion (that I have read in this thread) that somehow not saying know equates to calmer, more creative, less fear inducing parenting.

Bethann, I want to thank you for your great insight and post.

[stella]

Well said, Beth. I am in awe of any mother of four who is still standing. I truly believe that having to deal with more than one child at a time can be a real test. It's fun and I love it, but it has tested my parenting skills and patience in ways I never imagined. And I only have two.

I never believed in any kind of stern or harsh correction. I had the world's sweetest baby boy until he was a little past two. At that point his baby sister was sitting up and playing so happily with her toys and he took great pleasure in walking over to her, pushing her on the forehead with his hand and watching her topple backward to hit her head on the floor.

This happened more than once. And he still is a very gentle child for a boy. But you can bet we said "NO! Don't ever hit the baby!" This is after a gentle "we don't hit, that hurts the baby" didn't work.

And we still say no. Because it is important that they practice responding to the word.

And FWIW, I don't think that you stated or implied that children whose parents don't say no are likely to be either the perpetrator or the victim of a sexual assault.

[kath68]

I, like Barbara, think a lot of posts do come across as self-congratulatory. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;)

People deserve to pat themselves on the back from time to time. You have listed many topics that are sensitive issues, ergo the need for validation in them (and why people take the search for validation as self-congratulation at the cost of others' feelings). I know I have posted in search of validation from time to time. It is a tough line to walk between searching for validation and being insensitive to other people's feelings.

I have learned a lot from this board about generosity, tolerance and what is truly important in life. I try to keep in mind that people genuinely don't intend to be hurtful, even when they post something that comes across as insensitive. That isn't true for all boards, but it is true here. I hope people cut me the same slack. As others have said, it is the diversity of this board that makes it as successful as it is, and why I keep coming back.

[Vajrastorm]

>OK, I'm curious now, and genuinely. How do you define
>punishment? Does that mean -- no time outs, no negative
>consequences at all (like taking a toy away)? Obviously, I get
>no physical punishment... but I sense that what you're saying
>is no punishment of any kind, is that right??

Yes. No punishment of any kind. Mind you, this is an ideal and I've slipped up here or there in anger or frustration. My dd is spirited and then some.

>I understand and appreciate the intent to recognize and meet
>the needs of children, and to arrange life in ways that work
>well for both parents and children. That makes perfect sense
>and it seems like a wonderful way to nurture a child as long
>as there's balance.
>
>I also understand the benefits of reinforcing positive
>behavior vs. punishing negative behavior, but I don't know how
>it's possible to use only positive reinforcement? How do you
>teach consequences w/o a negative? And, I've never really
>thought about parenting w/o teaching consequences for
>undesirable behavior, it seems like something you "have" to
>do. Is there another way?

I don't feel like I need to teach consequences. An understanding of consequences develops easily. What would there be to teach? Drop a block on your foot. It hurts. Hit someone. They are sad and cry and may not like you. I admit that young children aren't able to grasp the wide range of consequences in life, but I attempt to interfere ar little as possible. I interfere when I feel there is a significant danger to dd, or that she is impeding on the rights of others.

Examples:

Dd wants to run fast down a wet and slippery grassy hill. I give her the information that the grass is slippery, but since a fall is not likely to kill her I don't tell her not to run. She runs, falls, and I explain that slippery hills can make you fall.

Dd hits another child at the park. We apologize to the child, and leave the park. Not because she's being punished, but because if she's feeling physical it isn't the time to be associating with other victims (er, kids LOL). The older she's gotten, the better she has gotten at controlling impulses. I make sure to phrase it in a neutral way when we're leaving, and emphasize that we can try again next time we come to the park. We go to the park almost daily.

I step in to prevent what needs to be prevented, and to sort things out when they've gotten out of hand, but I don't believe dd needs me to impose my disaproval in a concrete action.

>Maybe it's the language that's confusing me, or maybe I just
>haven't run into this way of doing things before.

Yeah, I don't think its a terribly common way of thinking.

>ETA: I'm also wondering if the consequences / punishment thing
>is something that you might be saving for a later age? I'm
>thinking of the old -- broke Mr. Johnson's window, now you'll
>have to earn the money to pay him back kind of thing....

In my mind, if you break something, you are responsible for fixing it. That isn't punishment, it is responsibility. It doesn't need to be framed negatively. Oops, I made a mistake and now I need to fix it. Mistakes happen. That's life! I thinking fixing one's mistakes is something to be proud of, not feel badly about.

>Or, do you simply withhold rewards as a "non-punishment"
>punishment?? As in -- no chores done, no special treat??

I don't withhold rewards. That's a punishment in my mind. Sometimes we may say we need to x before y, but it isn't approached like a threat or a punishment. Say dd makes a mess, and then she wants ice cream. I tell her we have to clean up first. If she helps me clean up, wonderful. If she doesn't, she doesn't. Either way the ice cream happens, but not until the mess is cleaned up.

>I don't think I'm getting it, thanks in advance for any help.

It takes a paradigm shift. I'm optimistic about human nature. I'm not pollyana-ish, but I believe we all have the innate ability to be thoughtful caring people. There are ways to influence this in children, but I don't worry that I have to stomp it into dd. I also don't believe compliance is the end-all be-all of human development, and compliance is not a major goal of mine when it comes to parenting. I'm more interested in dd learning to make thoughtful decisions than obey mine. I want her to feel empowered, and free from conformity AND rebellion.

Yes, I KNOW I'm a weirdo. :+

[trumansmom]

>
>I have learned a lot from this board about generosity,
>tolerance and what is truly important in life. I try to keep
>in mind that people genuinely don't intend to be hurtful, even
>when they post something that comes across as insensitive.
>That isn't true for all boards, but it is true here. I hope
>people cut me the same slack. As others have said, it is the
>diversity of this board that makes it as successful as it is,
>and why I keep coming back.


You just said *exactly* what I feel. :)


Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04

[brittone2]

How does saving No for important circumstances translate to no being "up for debate" ?

It isn't up for debate at our house, I assure you. When I say it, I mean it.

Again IMO it is about boundaries and limits and teaching your child to respect them. There are many, many, many ways to do that and I do not live in fear that my DS is not going to understand members of the opposite sex telling him NO and what that means....because he will understand limits and boundaries.

You have seen the "extreme of this anti no stuff played out."

What IMO you have seen is a permissive parent. It has nothing to do with the parents' choice of words, it has to do with a failure to respect boundaries and limits, particularly affecting someone else (since it was YOUR desk). IMO it has little to do with using or not using no...what you saw was a matter of ineffective, permissive parenting.

There is a big difference IMO. Lumping the two together IMO is unfair, although as you said this was an extreme case. I still don't think the two (avoiding overusing NO and permissive parenting) go hand in hand unless the parent chooses that or doesn't know how to be effective in setting boundaries.

[Vajrastorm]

I scoff at the notion that any of us are creating rapists.

Shall I pour some beer? We can have a scoff party. Like a pity party, only with more hair flipping and less sobriety.

Look, there are many ways to parent. What works in one family doesn't work in another.

Yes, there are extremists in all walks of parenting, but we do each other a great disservice when we let the extremists color our views of everyone else.

[kijip]

>I also see what you are saying, but I think that is true of a
>number of topics that are posted on here. Is a thread about
>why people choose unmedicated childbirth self congratulatory?
>Reasons to breastfeed? I mean, to me it seems like a huge
>number of topics could be considered self congratulatory.


Well I see MANY siggies that reference BF, co-sleeping, homebirth, cloth diapering and only 1 that celebrates not doing those things. So yes, I see that there is are lot of self congratulations. However I agree with Kathy that that is a-ok- we are all in need of validation/reassurance from time to time. I just like to call a spade a spade. Heck, my siggie congratulates me for being a CPS Tech LOL. I do think that it is important to look at how others percieve what I write. I would hope that I make it clear that my choices are best for me, not superior to other choices. But that is a goal I fall short of from time to time I know.

[kijip]

>I scoff at the notion that any of us are creating rapists.

I assure you that somebody right now is raising a rapist. With 1 in 4 women being rape victims, a much larger percentage of our children (in a society, not a board sense) will commit horrific crimes than we like to think about.

>Shall I pour some beer? We can have a scoff party. Like a
>pity party, only with more hair flipping and less sobriety.

Why is it ok for some to call using no "uncreative" and not ok for me to assert that it is not. I do scoff at the notion and I am not flipping my hair.

>Look, there are many ways to parent. What works in one family
>doesn't work in another.

I think I have said the same thing.

[stella]

I scoff along with you at the whole rapist notion.
That would be an absurd thing to suggest.
I believe that Bethann's point was that her kids will hear and have to respect the word "no" throughout their lives, so they might as well get used to it. (But I am not Bethann, so I could be wrong).

We have gotten way off track, haven't we?
And I have many items that I could bring to the scoffing party. We could scoff for days. When shall we start? (smile here - I don't know how to use the smilies on this board. It's on my list!)

[kijip]

>You have seen the "extreme of this anti no stuff played out."

Beth, I made that clear myself by calling it extreme.

>There is a big difference IMO. Lumping the two together IMO
>is unfair, although as you said this was an extreme case.

Where is the "fairness" in calling parnets that use no "uncreative" and implying that they are unresponsive.

I said early in this thread that it cuts both ways, something that I believe firmly. I have no issue with how you parent, I just take issue with the implication that many saw in this thread that saying no was a shortcut or uncreative.

[brittone2]

Hmmm...never once did I say other parents were uncreative or unresponsive. Read in whatever you like my dear, I'm D-O-N-E as people are going to bring to the table whatever personal baggage, sensitivities, etc. they carry, myself included, and read whatever the heck they want into any given post. Therefore, basically *anything* said is going to get twisted into something unsuitable by someone's mind here and therefore there's simply no point in continuing.

I'm sure there is thunderous applause that I've now decided to shut up. Yipee.

[Vajrastorm]

I said creating, not raising. I think those are two different things. Finding other ways to deal without saying "no" does not automatically lead to children who (a) don't understand the literal meaning of the word no and (b) have no concern for the emotions of other people.

I do think of "no" as uncreative, but only in the sense that it comes easily for most of us. I don't think uncreative means bad. I am perfectly ok with the fact that you don't think its uncreative. Cool. We disagree. Differences make life interesting.

What I object to, rather seriously, is the line of thinking about sex crimes and reluctance to use no. Bethann referred to "some of our children" in her post, and yes I *did* take that as an insinuation that certain parenting styles were helping create date rapists. I don't care to fight a huge battle about it (too late?) but that's how I read it and it makes me feel squicky.

I'm sorry you won't join my hair flipping scoff party. I'm trying to lighten the mood, poke some fun. I'll sit in my corner and flip by myself. *guilt tripping sniff* Come on, you know you want to come. }(

P.s. - my scoff party has an open invitation. We'll have the shiniest, flippiest hair ever. And good beer.

[Vajrastorm]

I scoff in your general direction!

*FLIP*

It's sooooo on.

[kijip]

The issue was raised in Holli's post when she said that her parent's use of the word no did not stop her from being raped, which i thought was completely out of range of what anyone had said. (Bethann mentioned that she wanted her teenage son to know that no meant no) I asserted that I did not think anyone was saying that knowing NO would protect any victim and I touched on the fact that as a society we have a large number of sexual offenders that do not respect no. Do I think that is because of their parents not using no? NO. But I do know that rapists consider thier feelings superior to thier victims. It is called a tangent. Obviously a misplaced tangent. Rape is something that I personally know all too much about based on first hand exerience and volunteer work. Having come up multiple times against a predator who disregarded the sanctity of others people's word and body as a child of 11, I can say that it goes without explaination that my emotions are running high I need to stop typing before I say something that will get me banned.

[Wife_and_mommy]

"I'm sure there is thunderous applause that I've now decided to shut up. Yipee."

No thunderous applause from me. You're one of those people I just love to "hear" speak(in a good way!)even if/when I don't agree. :)

Elizabeth
mommy to DD(April '04) and DS(January '06)

http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif[/img][/url]

[kijip]

>I'm sorry you won't join my hair flipping scoff party. I'm
>trying to lighten the mood, poke some fun. I'll sit in my
>corner and flip by myself. *guilt tripping sniff* Come on,
>you know you want to come. }(

Um, frankly it sounded to me, and rereads to me like a scoff party at me and a play on my words.

And yes, I do think that some parents help create rapists. Rapists do exist and someone helped them get to that place. And my experienece in this area is a little more than theoretical.

[stella]

I wouldn't ban you, Katie (not that I have the power anyway!)
I'm just saying that we are an unlikely group all around to be raising sexual predators. We are all a nurturing, loving group who are deeply invested in our children, regardless of how we discipline.

And I seriously doubt that parents not saying "no" alone is what makes a criminal. I just hate to see this lively and interesting conversation go way off in a direction that equates parenting without "no" to the creation of a rapist. I have not seen anyone suggest that - although you are correct - not respecting "no" or empathy for others IS definitely a common trait of all kinds of criminals.

Don't stop typing - there's some good discussion!