How to start discipline?

[Jenn98]

DD is 10 months old and is for the most part a sweet little baby, but she is starting to "express herself" in ways that aren't appropriate. ;) For example, she's started fighting and rolling over during diaper changes. She has begun ripping her bibs off mid-meal and has started sitting up on her knees in her booster seat. She still thinks the word "no" is funny as if I'm making a funny noise like "boo!" So, I'm looking for some btdt advice on how to begin with discipline.

I know some of your answers might depend on what kind of parenting "style" I fit best. I'm looking for more of a gentler approach with lots of natural consequences and redirection. I don't just want to smack her hand and say, "No!" But I'm no wimp either. :) I believe in having firm rules, but not having rules just to have them.

Any suggestions?

TIA,
Jenn

[brittone2]

I need to get DS to bed but have you checked out the site www.gentlechristianmothers.com?

There is a gentle discipline board on their message boards that is IMO excellent. It is a great, free resource (I'm not particularly religious and the name was a bit of a turnoff to me at first, but it is a great, great resource). It is non punitive, but not permissive either.


IMO at 10 months there isn't much you can do but distract and redirect. Developmentally your DD isn't trying to be defiant or anything...she's just being a 10 month old w/ her own opinion. That doesn't mean it isn't hard on you though :)

Check out that website if you are so inclined. There are a few mamas here that introduced me to in a loooong time ago and it has been a wonderful resource (and it is filled w/ lots of practical advice). It takes a bit of a paradigm shift in how you view/relate to your child (at least for most of us raised in a more punitive household) but it really makes sense, and we've found it very effective. A lot of the premise is say it, and make it happen.

Good luck! I hope you find something that works for you! :)

[stillplayswithbarbies]

honestly, those sound like perfectly appropriate ways for a 10 month old to express herself.

all you can do is redirect her or remove her from the situation at this age.

[maestramommy]

DD is only 8 months (in 2 days!), but she has been rolling over and fighting the diaper changes for a while. There's really nothing to do but try and distract her with a toy, or cuddles and kisses beforehand.

I may have to check out the Gentle Christian Mothers before long. She keeps grabbing things she shouldn't and I don't know what to do to discourage her, other than grabbing her and moving her someplace else.

[dragop21]

I am a very active member at GCM and am very familiar with their type of discipline, which is what I use with my children (well, the newborn isn't quite there yet! lol).

anyway, discipline means "to teach" literally. and you can start stating your expectations for her behaviour now. like when she is cooperating really nicely for a diaper change, tell her that you really appreciated it. don't be afraid to talk to her like you would an older child or adult. at this point, even though she can't understand your words, she can understand your attitude. that and, its great practice for later when "to teach" without punishment is something that is going to have to be worked on. When she hits the toddler age, you can just keep using the same words she has heard her whole life when she has done something that you liked. (also avoiding self esteem based on only what she does and when she is "good" enough). Just have age appropriate expectations, she can't honestly be asked to lay still at 10 months without some form of distraction or redirection. and they will need our help for a long time. not our punishment or nasty words.

Also, try and avoid NO, unless its really really important. I try to save that word for when I really want my dd's attention. I had to use this technique initially with my dog! :) I didn't want him to ignore my NO either. but I know its hard.

HTH's somewhat! I am no pro star parent, but I am working on it and applying this stuff as much as possible.

[shilo]

hi jenn,

my son does all of these. at 1, i think 'discipline' really comes as much from me having the 'discipline' to examine my expectations when he is trying my patience :) as it does from any actual attempt at changing that behavior. ok, all joking aside, i find that redirection works for some things, and just working with him/around him/between him, etc. works for others - but really i think this is quite typical behavior at her age.

with the diaper changes, i found that he does much better if i let him stand while i change it. there is a small window sill at standing height, just above our changing table, so that works well for me. out and about i let him stand up against a wall and then wash his hands afterwards - there is a little bit of a learning curve to standing changes, but it gets easier. i just basically decided on day 2 of this behavior that i hated spending my whole day saying "no Sam!" "don't do that Sam!" etc. etc. and so decided for both of us that this was a compromise i could live with. my DH has beter luck with giving him lots of toys to distract him while changing him - doesn't work worth a darn for me. another girlfriend just said she was going to try 'pull-ups' this week for this problem - don't know if it works or not, maybe someone else will...

for the bibs, my ds could get off the first velcro one's i tried (more like drool bibs you get with all of those outfits at showers) at 6mos when we started solids, so i switched to the over the head terry cloth ones. when those got hard to get over his head, i tried bibs with snaps that lasted about 2 weeks until he figured those out, then i switched to ones with ties or much bigger/longer patches of velcro that are much harder to get off. i find now that when he really gets restless trying to get it off, it usually means he's done eating anyway, so i just got better at 'reading' him.

our booster has a lap/crotch belt and an adjustable tray, so between the 2, he has yet to defeat that and get up on his knees. just like you, "no" is met with a sly, devious, mischevious little smile that only seems to make him more likely to do whatever it is i am saying "no" too. i haven't found solutions to all of my "no" dilemmas, still working on it everyday :) - just like a lot of new moms i think... anyway, hope that helps for the ones you mentioned.

not to hijack, but anyone have a good redirection for the toilet seat/toilet paper... he's already figured out how to defeat the "child-proofing" devices? i am tired of having my toilet paper on the back of the toilets and keeping the doors shut all of the time - probably a necessary evil we'll just have to learn to live with, but open open open to suggestions!

lori
Sam 5/19/05 How lucky I am that you chose me.

[holliam]

Just a comment about the toilet paper...I honestly decided it wasn't something that mattered. She thought it was fun and honestly it looks like fun to me. So, I just let her have fun and she just stopped doing it after a while. Once in a blue moon she will do it again (I guess for old time's sake ;)) but it actually just makes me laugh when I see the trail.

My daughter is 21 months now and I guess my best advice, regardless how you choose to parent, is to sit down with your DH and determine what you consider to be "non-negotiables". For example, holding our hand in a parking lot or along a sidewalk is a "non-negotiable". It's a safety issue. Having these established in your head from the beginning helps set your expectations and plan your reaction to situation.

At 10 months kids are enjoying their new skills in exploring the world. Figure out which actions are safety issues and which are really just convenience issues for you--will any harm happen if babe does not wear a bib? It's summer so you can feed shirtless or use snaps or over-the-head bib.

I also have really forced myself to think before reacting. Basically, I think of an explanation for why I don't want her doing some thing (We need to sit in our chair so we do not fall out and hurt ourselves, or whatever), and whether or not I share that explanation with her (I always do but some folks don't), it has given me enough time to figure out WHY I want a behavior to stop/change/whatever.

Holli

[cmdunn1972]

I just wanted to comment that our DS's must be cut from the same cloth! DS is 13 months now, and he'd trying the same tricks that your DS is trying.

Sorry I don't have an answer about the toilet paper. Taking it off the roll hasn't gotten old for me yet. Child proofing our toilet hasn't worked, and I've already caught him wanting to play in the toilet water (necessitating major hand washing afterwards). They're quick little devils at this age, aren't they?

[Rachels]

I agree with Karen. She doesn't have words to say, "I don't like having my diaper changed and I'm angry that my movement is restricted," so she struggles and snarles instead. It's communication and expression of her experience. She doesn't need to be disciplined for that. Distraction and redirection are all a ten month old needs in the way of behavior stuff.

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.jpg


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[pampamz]

IMO, you just have to roll with it at this age. My DD is also 10mos and she is a fiesty one when she wants to be and is getting into all sorts of things.

No "discipline" for her yet. We redirect, there are a lot of "Ta Ta, we don't eat dirt" etc. and just try to make dipe changes swift and efficient! At meal time if she starts hurling food I clear her tray (hopefully before she does!) and she is starting to sort of grasp that cause/effect idea.

It's the age. She's still very much a baby, right? I personally find it much cuter than the roll on the ground tantrums at Walmart that come in the not so far future!

Go with it, try to laugh at it -- it goes by so fast...

[stillplayswithbarbies]

I's like to add that this is a good opportunity to start helping her to understand the world around her. When she wriggles on the changing table, you can tell her "You don't like having to lay still while I change your diaper, it's frustrating to you, I know. But it has to be done, we have to stay clean and healthy, it will be over soon" and that is a start to her learning about her feelings. She won't understand the words yet, but she will get the tone of voice and know that you empathize with her. And if you start this kind of talk now, it will be second nature by the time she is old enough to start to learn the words that go with the feelings.

[californiagirl]

At this age, it's as much about teaching yourself as it is about teaching her. She's learning that what you say has meaning. You're learning to make sure that what you say has meaning. Saying "No!" without other stuff doesn't help either of you. So you learn some formulas: you learn to give positive statements about what you DO want (because telling her what not to do leaves it up to her to pick what to replace it with, and she's the least qualified person in the room) and you learn to make them happen.

It's hard to make sense of "No!" by itself. Do you mean "stop"? What is the bad thing about what she's doing? What is she supposed to do instead? 10-month olds understand a lot more than people think, but "No!" is usually the hardest thing people ask them to make sense of! So give her a specific instruction or rule, and move to make it happen almost as soon as you say it -- it's just polite to give her the information to work with.

For fighting and rolling over during diaper changes, I employed a mixture of force and guile. Force is putting her on the floor and putting a knee across her chest (looks terrible, amuses DD no end). Guile is making sure she's occupied -- providing a toy, singing songs, talking about what noises animals make, getting her to "help".

For ripping off bibs mid-meal, you have a couple of choices. The easiest is to figure out why she's ripping them off, and fix it. Is she bored? Are they annoying her? Does she just like the sound of ripping velcro (get her some other velcro, then -- even a bib she's not wearing)? Then comes "you need to wear your bib to eat" (no bib, no food).

[jhaud]

i'm also active at gentle christian mothers... one of the books highly recommended over there is Easy To Love, Difficult To Discipline(becky A. Bailey). it is more of a mindset and being a good example. another book i have not read is playful parenting(lawrence cohen), but it is one i am in process of looking for. i think at your dd's age redirection is the best tool and i think this book will go into that more. anyways, fwiw at 22 mo, my dd still thinks no is funny and if i physically remove her from the no-object/area it is even funnier... this is a list of other books as one of the stickies on the gentle discipline thread at gcm:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=201.0

good luck

eta authors and link

[dules]

I agree with Karen. I think my DD started to understand No a bit at that age but (no flames please :)) it really was reserved for a danger situation.

With the booster, do you use one with a harness of some sort? My 2.5 year old climbs into hers on her own but still needs the reminder of the harness when sitting in it just so she doesn't lose her balance (forgetting how high she is).

And for diapers, well you will get very good at wrestling, but some great distractions are blowing a wandful of bubbles over the table so baby can try to "catch" and watch while they fall (and give you time to change her) or a small, shatterproof mirror that she can hold and admire the baby in the mirror (also giving you time to change her).

Good luck!

Best,
Mary

[KBecks]

I guess I'm a wuss because when Alek started doing those things, I generally adapted to him. Sometimes I change him on the floor and put my leg over him so he can't roll. Sometimes I sing songs to him -- we have a diaper change song, and another one I've added that has a high pitched "wheeee!" in it that distracts him. I also let him stand on the changing table (with me right there) while I'm changing his diaper standing up.

We do a lot of bibless meals, although you could remove her shirt rather than struggle with her at the table, or when the bib comes off--- hey, meal's done! go run around.

In terms of climbing, we're trying to stop it, but I'm also a wuss in this area, I let Alek climb a bit on things, and he has taken some minor spills. I generally tell him to sit on his bottom and place him on his bottom, but I'll let him stand on a chair if that's what he's going to do, as long as he's not climbing on the table (although sometimes I let him do that too!)

So, this is possibly worthless, but you are not the only one struggling. I think and hope it will get better with time. I'll expect more cooperation from him when he's a little older.


ETA: And my son is 19 months... so you'll have plenty of time to work out your own way of doing things... this phase is around for a while, but they do start to get bigger and stronger.... :)

[smilequeen]

Well 10 months is too young for the "discipline" in the way we typically imagine it. Everything she is doing is age appropriate, learning the world around her, what the boundries are, what things do, how things feel, etc.

A lot of what I did at that age and still do to an extent is adapting the world he's in to keep him safe and picking my battles. Like if he wiggled on the changing table I either found a toy (usually a non toy that he was fascinated with like the ear thermometer or something) that kept him occupied or I changed him on the floor so he didn't get hurt. When he started taking off his bibs I bought some that he couldn't get off (bumkins with the long sleeves). I gave him a safe, babyproofed house that he can explore and learn without me having to police him and say "no" or "stop" all day long.

You also have to choose your battles. It's annoying to reroll the toilet paper, but I don't think DS is still going to be fascinated with it when he's 7, so I just let him have his fun. If he bites though I have to show him how to be gentle instead. That is a battle worth fighting to me. You just can't expect quick results.

Another thing I'm learning now is that I have to have a plan for things. If DS does bite (can you tell what my current issue is?) I needed to have a programmed response because when it really really hurts there are times I want to yell out. The thing is, he isn't trying to hurt me and getting angry really isn't appropriate. I just have to teach him that it does hurt me and he needs to be gentle.

It's a tough age. I think this whole late babyhood/early toddlerhood can be exhausting some days. It's also a whole lot of fun watching them explore and learn and laugh :)

[shilo]

oh-mi-gosh yes!!! so fast. it's such an interesting age for me right now. where you know they have so so so much going on upstairs, but are still babies, KWIM? and those little monster-grins they give you, sometimes it's all i can do to hide my smile :). he's just started to take steps without holding on this week, so i think my life will be changing again drastically in the next few weeks - i'm feeling well armed though with all of the recent threads on starting hand holding, touching the car in parking lots, etc. so hopefully it won't be too, too rocky.
lori
Sam 5/19/05 How lucky I am that you chose me.

[o_mom]

> i am tired of having my
>toilet paper on the back of the toilets and keeping the doors
>shut all of the time - probably a necessary evil we'll just
>have to learn to live with, but open open open to
>suggestions!

Is there another place for toilet paper? :-)