Did anyone else see/read this story?!?

[denna]

PREGNANT IRAQI WOMAN SHOT BY US MILITARY

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2025900

<ETA> My DH is in the military as WAS I. By posting this story I did not state any opinion I had towards it. I just found the story interesting.

I do not feel that the loss of a pregnant woman is more valuable than the loss of a US soldier. HOWEVER I do feel that the US military has been known to be well let's just say 'trigger happy'. One of the many reasons I left the military was because I do not agree w/ war or the politics involved w/ most of it.

[Rachels]

Yes. It's horrific.

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
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Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
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"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[DebbieJ]

That is just ridiculous.

~ deb
DS born at home 12/03
2 year check up: 25 lbs with clothes on and 35 inches!
BFARed for 20 months and 6 days
(Breastfeeding After Reduction is possible! www.bfar.org)

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[KBecks]

I think it's tragic. At the same time, I understand that there have been some "pregnant" female suicide bombers, and that it would be a very difficult call whether to fire or not if the vehicle was speeding through a security checkpoint and not stopping. Iraq is still a very dangerous place.

That said, it's still a tragic accident with a terrible outcome.

ETA: My gut feel is that discussion of this topic could be controversial, depending on one's view of our military in Iraq.

[bostonsmama]

I keep writing things and erasing them.

In college I took a journalism class. The first tenant was deciding what was newsworthy. "Dog bites man" is not news, but "Man bites dog" is. Funny how when pregnant/female homicide bombers blow up American soldiers en masse in Iraq and Afghanistan, it doesn't quite create the controversy/stir that "PREGNANT IRAQI WOMAN SHOT BY US MILITARY" does. Read into that what you may.

FTR, I think ANY loss of life is tragic. War sucks.

Larissa

Baseline appt July 25th! Tentative retrieval ~Aug 10th, transfer ~8/13 or 15

Proud Aunt to Jack Dorian, born to my bro & SIL 3/06
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[Emmas Mom]

Well said Larissa.

[lisams]

I totally agree with you. A baby, a father, a son, a wife, a mother, a brother, a sister. Any death is horribly sad.

[mamaturk]

WELL SAID!!!!!!!

[megs4413]

on that note...isn't it possible that she WAS on a kamakaze mission? It's not good PR for the US military or positive propaganda for the war effort. It makes the US look terrible. If she were speeding through a checkpoint maybe she was hoping to get shot and cause the anger that I'm sure most of us felt when we first read the headline. It's hard to know what's true and what's not when it comes out of the journalism machine. I wish it was as easy as reading a story to gather the truth, but I guess we'll never know what really happened. I agree with many of the other posts that it is just sad all the way around.

[Saccade]

No, I was too busy following the story about the Haditha massacre. That's more than enough for me. End of topic for me.

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[kijip]

Ok, EXACTLY how many pregnant sucide bombers have there been?

And I hear news everyday about roadside bombs, "insurgents", sucide bombers. And the heartbreaking detailed life stories of American troops dead. It is in the news all the time and I am sure that my news sources have a bit of an anti-war bias. Doesn't create "controversy"? This whole war is very well covered in terms of newspaper inches, radio and tv hours and websites and can't be described as lacking in controversy. Regardless of that woman's story or history she is a dead woman, a dead mother. And her life is equal to mine in the eyes of God.

The blood of American troops, Iraqi civilians, American contractors and Iraqi insurgents is on my hands as an American citizen, voter and taxpayer and it makes me very, very upset.

[bostonsmama]

I don't quite understand how "the blood of American troops, Iraqi civilians, American contractors and Iraqi insurgents is on (your)ands." Unless of course you've joined the Army in your spare time and gone to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The blood of Iraqi and Afghani terrorists and homicide bombers on my hands (that have killed a whole team attached to my DH's command...who have suppressed the rights and extinguished the eductation of women and girls...who have starved and killed their own) ...now THAT I'd like to have on my hands. But war protestor, war sympathizer or not, that BLOOD belongs to the men and women who actually serve over there....figure of speech of not.

ETC parentheses

Larissa

Baseline appt July 25th! Tentative retrieval ~Aug 10th, transfer ~8/13 or 15

Proud Aunt to Jack Dorian, born to my bro & SIL 3/06
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[kijip]

My tax dollars and my government started and are funding this war. As a person who opposes war and killing on principal under just about any circumstances, I feel considerable guilt over that fact. Just because I don't like the outcome of the political process does not mean that the outcome is any less mine. I did not choose this war but the actions taken on my behalf by my government are in my lap as an American. My parents taught me that I can't dodge responsibility for community action. But guilt and reflection is perhaps an overexpressed tendancy of mine ;). I almost threw up in the car today listening to the Haditha news and to the biography of the latest solider killed in Iraq. There is a reason I don't WATCH news. I can't do much besides vote, contribute $$ and light candles but that is what I am going to have to keep doing until our war is over. And then, it is on to the next war as history indicates. I wonder which war Toby will be asked to sign up for?

[Marisa6826]

Please let's keep this civil. Debating what is done in one's spare time and whose blood should be where isn't going to help this thread.

-m

[denna]

I feel the need to apologize to anyone and everyone who may have been offended by this post. I did not realize this would cause such a debate and anger in my fellow posters. Maybe I didnt think this through clearly before posting.

I truly am sorry. And your perspectives were very interesting for me to read.

Denna

[R2sweetboys]

Denna,
Honestly, I really don't think you need to appologize for posting this story. It was not your intent to cause a stir and to create a debate about whether the war is right or wrong. You were simply posting about a current event that you thought would be of interest. It is a very sad story, regardless of how or why it happened. And I realize there are many many more tragic stories of death and despair related to this war.(be it soldiers or civilians) I'm guessing that the fact that this was a pregnant woman killed is why you felt it might be of interest on this board-not because you wanted to start a debate over whether or not the war should be taking place.

Katie- I understand and respect your strong views about the war. However, your posts seem to help fuel the debate. The original post did not have to turn into who believes what about the war. It didn't have to "create controversy"-that seems like a choice to me. There are valid opinions on both sides but this isn't the place for them IMO.


~Leslie

SAHM to...
Ryan 8/14/00
Matthew 2/14/03

[kijip]

>Katie- I understand and respect your strong views about the
>war. However, your posts seem to help fuel the debate. The
>original post did not have to turn into who believes what
>about the war. It didn't have to "create controversy"-that
>seems like a choice to me. There are valid opinions on both
>sides but this isn't the place for them IMO.

War is by definition controversial as it is a controversy. It was not my choice to create controversy...that happened before and when the war started. FTR, there were 4-5 posters on this thread that made statements that I disagreed with (esp with regards to pregnant sucide bombers and medica spin). But I never called into question their rights to say what they did, just choose to verbalize my own thoughts. If there are "valid opinions on both sides of this but this is not the place for them" why do you welcome 4-5 other's opinions without calling them out by name?

[kijip]

>Katie- I understand and respect your strong views about the
>war. However, your posts seem to help fuel the debate. The
>original post did not have to turn into who believes what
>about the war. It didn't have to "create controversy"-that
>seems like a choice to me. There are valid opinions on both
>sides but this isn't the place for them IMO.

War is by definition controversial as it is a controversy. It was not my choice to create controversy...that happened before and when the war started. FTR, there were 4-5 posters on this thread that made statements that I disagreed with (esp with regards to pregnant sucide bombers and medica spin). But I never called into question their rights to say what they did, just choose to verbalize my own thoughts. If there are "valid opinions on both sides of this but this is not the place for them" why do you welcome 4-5 other's opinions without calling them out by name?

[KBecks]

I appreciate the apology, but also feel you shouldn't sweat it too much. I'll admit that I was seeing red yesterday morning when I read the headline.

I also saw your note about feeling the military is trigger-happy. Well, some may be, but I tend to think it's rare.

For this story, I feel bad for everyone involved, the victims of the shooting, and for the military personnel who had to decide whether to shoot or not. It isn't clear what exactly happened -- someone in the vehicle said they didn't get any warning, but the military said they warned and signalled for the car to slow or stop. To me, it's a tragedy of miscommunication and misunderstanding.

As for the decision whether to fire at the vehicle, in an environment with suicide bombers, it's a terrible decision to have to make.

Do you shoot at the vehicle, killing or injuring the occupants? or
Do you risk allowing the vehicle to proceed into an area where there are more innocent people around -- and take the chances of more death from a bomb?

I don't even know if the person or people shooting could even see whether the lady inside the car was pregnant at the time. I feel that if I were in the position of taking the life of people in the car, or risking my life and the lives of the people in the vicinity, I would probably shoot too, especially given that if the people in the cars are bombers, they would be taking their lives anyway.... why risk additional lives? Of course, this is assuming reasonable assessment that there is perceived real danger posed by the people's behavior. I tend to think there was.

Of course hindsight is perfect, and it would feel awful to have made such a terrible mistake. But how could someone have known? What would you have done differently?

And, these soldiers are working in a place where bombs have killed a lot of people, so they're working in an environment where there is significant danger from bombs and bombers.

I feel this story is much like the tragic accidents where cops shoot pepole who appear to have guns or are otherwise involved in threatening behavior. It's a horrible situaion to be in and a horrible decision to have to make, and a horrible thing to be wrong about.

Now, there are two sides to the story -- was this a checkpoint or not? were there signals to stop or not? etc. etc. etc.

I go back to thinking that there was some tragic, fatal miscommunication or misunderstanding about the signals or lack of signlals given to the driver, and it's possible the driver was distracted by the oncoming birth and desire to get to the hospital. I don't think this happened because anyone was trigger-happy. Maybe I'm naive. It's a very unfortunate situation that is terribly tragic.

Anyway, that's my read, FWIW.

[lisams]

I don't feel as if you need to apologise! I just don't think we know or ever really will know the whole story. Unless we're there, in that moment there's just no way to know what happened.

My brother just got back from Iraq last week and I am so relieved. To think about what could happen is so scary. So many lives lost and families living in pain, it just makes my heart ache for any family that has lost a loved one in war.

[Saccade]

>My brother just got back from Iraq last week and I am so
>relieved. To think about what could happen is so scary. So
>many lives lost and families living in pain, it just makes my
>heart ache for any family that has lost a loved one in war.

Just remember: every person lost was some mother's baby once. Some mother once watched him sleep for hours, marveled at his tiny fingers' grip, inhaled the sweet smell of his head and rubbed her cheek against his downy hair. Some mother got up every night for months to check on him, to rock him, to sing him to sleep. Some mother hand fed him patiently for months, turned his babble into speech a word at a time, held his hand while he toddled.

That's why we care about war, maybe more than ever once we become mothers (or imagine ourselves mothers).


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