Do I give in or let him starve over a bib?

[swampnurse]

My previously well behaved child has taken a turn for the worse today. He usually has no problem putting on his bib and sitting down at his little table to eat. This morning, and every meal since, he has FREAKED OUT every time i have tried to put the bib on. He is 22 months old and feeds himself, so i don't want to let him spill food (especially the yogurt) everywhere. And even if i did, this is the rule i have made, it is simple and i expect him to follow it. So even at th emention of the bib he freaks out and clings to my legs sobbing. I tell him that he cannot eat unless he puts the bib on and he continues to sob and refuse to eat and try to cling to me. At the third meal i said, OK no bib, but you have to take off your shirt and stay at your seat. i have never insisted that he SIT the whole time, but he must remain at the spot and not wander around while eating.

I don't know if this is him testing me or if there is some real issue. I did pinch his neck in the bib the other day, but it was minor and he got over it in a couple of seconds and then wore the bib.

He's certainly not starving and is well above the 100% for height and weight, so i'm not too worried about him missing a few meals if necessary. Is this too early to insist that he obey. My gut tells me no, but he IS my first, so i'm not sure. And i'm due with my second in 2 months, so i'm especially worried about losing any control i already have over him.

Please help!I'm sure there are many more tests to come!

[Marisa6826]

I wouldn't hold fast to a bib rule. If you're that worried about him making a mess, strip him down to a dipe. He's a toddler and he's trying to assert his independence. This is one of the few things he thinks he has control over. Yeah, it SUCKS to have to clean up yogurt, but is it really going to make a difference at the end of the day? I found that if I try and force the issue, they end up flinging food around anyway. Good thing for the dogs. ;)

The only non-negotiables in our house are:

No hurting the dogs or each other, and NO letting the dogs outside!
Must go down the stairs on a belly or heiney - and Mommy ALWAYS goes first
No fooling around with the DVR
No standing on chairs

Out of the house, it's:

Carseats and straps ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS
Same goes for holding hands any time we're in public. If they can't abide by the holding hands thing, they go in the stroller.
They're also not allowed outside without a grownup (our yard isn't fenced)

What about letting him pick out a big boy smock or apron? Both my kids did away with bibs when they were about 14m old. If they're eating something messy, I have oilcloth aprons for them. They think they're wearing aprons just like Mommy. Works every time. ;)

-m

[brittone2]

IMO it depends on how important the bib is to you. Truthfully ,I'm surprised you made it to 22 months with him still wearing one to be honest ;) We abandoned the bib early on as DS hated it. He didn't like eating, so I certainly didn't need any more mealtime stress on him or I, and so the bib went. I usually just took his shirt off if he was eating something messy. He's a few months past two now and most days does surprisingly well with utensils and food without making a mess.

I think everyone has to decide what boundaries and limits matter most to them. For some people, a bib or no bib is not a big deal, to other people it is a big deal. Only you can make those decisions for your family.

I'm not sure if you've ever seen it mentioned here, but a great website pertaining to discipline is the gentle discipline board at www.gentlechristianmothers.com. I'm not particularly religious at all, but IMO it is a wonderful (and free!) resource.

I think the concepts of "control" and "obedience" can be hot buttons. Some of it has to do w/ how we are raised, and what expectations we have of our kids. Gentlechristianmothers has some interesting info on topics like this. The advice there is very practical in my experience. It is non punitive but not permissive IMO. It might be worth checking out if you are open to it at all.

[brittone2]

LOL! Love the apron idea ;) One of my college roommates had parents (who were otherwise very cool) that required her to wear an apron at the dinner table even in high school because she always got food on herself. The girl was a near-genius, but apparently her parents couldn't deal with stains very well ;) Anyway, she said they finally got into a huge argument as her parents still wanted her to wear her apron when her high school boyfriend (who was in college at the time) would come over for dinner ;)

I'm sure your girls will no longer need the aprons by high school, but what a great idea in the meantime :)

[kijip]

Toby stopped wearing a bib a long time before he turned one. He mostly took it off. I never viewed it as defiance, just him not liking it. I save my energy for the non-negotiables- car seat, holding hands, not watching a dvd, not hitting/kicking/etc, no more cookies.

I don't think this is testing as much as it is him expressing a preference. What will happen if he does not wear the bib? Just my 2 cents.

[swampnurse]

Thanks, i'll definitely check out that site tonight.

Like i said, the bib isn't a huge deal, it's just whether he is usung it as a control issue or not that i'm concerned about. The darn dog died last month and i sure miss her clean up duties! He actually asks for the bib, so it's not something i ever considered a control issue. And he loves eating more than just about anything, so mealtimes are never stressful for anyone- UNTIL NOW. I did abandon the bib at the second meal of the day, strip him down to a diaper, and then only insisted that he stay in his spot. My concern is how far do i go with the giving in and will he just push it one step further every time. I am now considering bringing the highchair back out if he will not stay in that spot at his little table.

Kill me now! I can't believe we're having another!



(My apologies - I hit edit in the wrong box, and edited your post instead of mine. -m)

[mariza]

We ditched the bib at about 10 months, it was actually making more of a mess than not using one. DD would rub the bib with food all over it on her face and in her hair, so we finally gave up. She still loves to rub food in her hair (not sure what that's about!) but she is overall much cleaner without it.
If you still want to try it how about taking him shopping and letting him pick out his own, or try the disposable ones? I also really like the apron idea. Good Luck!

[swampnurse]

No, REALLY, the bib is NOT a big deal! Like i said, at the second meal i gave it up and stripped him down. I am just concerned about whether or not this is a control issue that i should try to put a stop to now or let it go. I tell him to put it on, he freaks out and then i say, "OK, you don't have to wear it". Isn't that giving in to some variation of a tantrum? I think i've had it beat into me from all these parent's books and Supernanny that i am never to give in. Although my son has never actually had a real tantrum, i'm terrified! How are we supposed to tell when they are testing us or when they are just expressing a preference? I wish mine came with an instruction manual!

And i wish the dog was still alive to clean up after us! :)

I'll go check out that gentle christian mother website tonight.

[KBecks]

Do you have different styles of bibs to try? For some reason my DS all of a sudden loathed the bibs I was using (the bibsters), but I got him 2 different kinds from Wal Mart (one over the head with a t-shirt neck, and one that snaps in back) and somehow he's OK with these bibs, the over the head t-shirt ones are the least objectionable.

I'll admit I'm a wuss and would rather my DS get messy and just deal with the laundry. But, if this is something that's important for you, then stick with it. I'd offer him the choice to either eat w/a bib or to take his shirt off, or not eat.

I think letting him skip one meal a day would be my tolerance level, personally. Maybe you could let him go 2 meals w/o eating, but I wouldn't let him go for days w/o food.

Otherwise, you could change to non-messy foods -- like finger foods that aren't sloppy on the clothes -- like hot dogs, lunch meat, cut up apples, etc. for a little while and then try the bib after taking a couple days break from it.

I'm not very experienced and make it up as I go along, so these suggestions may be useful or not. Good luck with it!!!! Let us know if you come up with something great.

[bunnisa]

>>Is this too early to insist that he obey.

Nope!

>>My gut tells me no, but he IS my first, so i'm not sure.

Follow your instinct - no one on this board knows your child like you do, and no one can diagnose his intention (and your child's heart attitude is what really matters).

I will give you my experience, though. My DS is older than yours but he doesn't like to wear bibs. If I'm giving him something that's particularly messy or will stain, the deal is that he either wears a bib or doesn't get the food. He always chooses the bib, unless he's not hungry to begin with.

If my DS was younger (read: inevitably messy) I wouldn't give him the option of going bib-free. Why? Because I'd be setting a precedent that wouldn't be practical for our family. What if we were in a restaurant? I wouldn't take off his shirt there. Or in a cold building? Or would I really want to always carry a change of clothes for him, and be throwing away permanently stained clothes?


Bethany
blessed wife and mama to two!

"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-Justin Torres

[C99]

>No, REALLY, the bib is NOT a big deal! Like i said, at the
>second meal i gave it up and stripped him down. I am just
>concerned about whether or not this is a control issue that i
>should try to put a stop to now or let it go. I tell him to
>put it on, he freaks out and then i say, "OK, you don't have
>to wear it". Isn't that giving in to some variation of a
>tantrum? I think i've had it beat into me from all these
>parent's books and Supernanny that i am never to give in.
>Although my son has never actually had a real tantrum, i'm
>terrified! How are we supposed to tell when they are testing
>us or when they are just expressing a preference? I wish mine
>came with an instruction manual!

Well, he's almost 2 -- he's GOING to throw tantrums. And he's going to be a big brother soon, which will also cause tantrums. IMO, you'd be better off to accept that it's going to happen and expect it than worry over how much "control" you can exert over him.

I would really recommend against imposing rules about eating. If you have a toddler who actually eats his meals, you don't want to mess with that! It might be testing, but it might also just be a preference. I think of testing more along the lines of a child making sure that you're watching him while he yanks the power cord out of the wall, for example.

[nicoleandjackson]

((Hugs)), mama!

No, I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect him to obey you at this age. What you *do* need to decide is whether the issue at hand is a deal-breaker for you. Those you don't budge on, even during the ensuing DEF-CON-5-level tantrum.

You can ditch the bib, set new rules for dining, and consistently stick to them OR you can try to negotiate your DS back into wearing a bib. If bib-wearing is a deal-breaker for you, maybe you can get a different style (towel bibs w/the stretchy neck-hole thingy vs. velcro closure, vs. snap closure), or let him pick out his own bib from a selection of two or three so that he gets some "choice" in the matter.

For things that are deal-breakers in our house, our motto is "you don't get to choose WHETHER you'll do it, but we'll give you some choice as to HOW you want to get it done."

Good luck, and be gentle with yourself about this!

Nicole
Mommy of Jackson 4/30/02

http://b5.lilypie.com/nD9Jm5.png

[Marisa6826]

I only JUST took Sophie out of her booster seat a few weeks ago because I couldn't trust her to sit in her seat for an entire meal. Even now, it's still a challenge, and she's 3-1/2.

I highly suggest getting a booster seat with straps instead of pulling out the highchair. First off, he's not a baby anymore. Second, you will need that highchair for your new baby sooner than you realise. I had Mia in ours long before she could sit up - it was just reclined all the way - I needed *someplace* to put her down in the kitchen!

We have this one from BRU. For $25 you simply can't beat it. In fact, we keep a second one in the car for Mia when we go to restaurants/friends' houses. You can use it with or without the tray, and it has three settings for the height of the seat.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000DEW8N.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/rb2rb

-m

[californiagirl]

It's not too early to expect him to obey, but it's also not to early to recognize that compromise is a good thing and is different from simply caving in. Getting hung up on making him obey and maintaining control over him is not usually useful, as far as I can tell.

If he hooowls and you give in, even though you really care, because you can't stand the noise, that's permissive and it's setting you up for trouble. If he hooowls and you change things to meet both your needs because you don't really care that much and clearly he does -- that's just being flexible and responsive. Honestly, they do know the difference.

So if it really matters to you, hold the line. But if it doesn't really matter you, don't feel like you have to hold the line or he'll be a demon child. You would already have noticed if he were the kind of kid who needs incredibly firm boundaries or he goes wild; he's had plenty of time already.

Also, this is a classic age for sudden development of apparently irrational fears. So he could really genuinely be terrified, even though he wasn't yesterday.

[kijip]

>>>Is this too early to insist that he obey.
>
>Nope!
>
>>>My gut tells me no, but he IS my first, so i'm not sure.
>
>Follow your instinct - no one on this board knows your child
>like you do, and no one can diagnose his intention (and your
>child's heart attitude is what really matters).

Agreed.


>If my DS was younger (read: inevitably messy) I wouldn't give
>him the option of going bib-free. Why? Because I'd be setting
>a precedent that wouldn't be practical for our family. What if
>we were in a restaurant? I wouldn't take off his shirt there.
>Or in a cold building? Or would I really want to always carry
>a change of clothes for him, and be throwing away permanently
>stained clothes?

My question is when do kids learn how to be neat without a bib if they are expected to wear one until well into toddlerhood? Like being quiet in church- my kid needs to not disrupt the whole congregation so I need to teach him to be quiet for over an hour. So in order to do that I have to give him the chance to learn by sitting near the back and whispering direction and being prepared to take him out (and losing some sort of privledge in the process) for being too loud. I can't sit in the cry room or the nursery for 3-4 years of Sundays and then march him in for First Communion and expect him to sit the whole time. Trial and error is an important part of the learning process IMHO.

[dhano923]

Wow, my DS hasn't worn a bib since he was like 12-13 months old!

I think what your son is doing is normal for his age. He's entering the Terrible Twos, and they were named for a reason. ;) He's going to try and see what he can get away with, and what he can't. Plus you're expecting -- when I was pregnant with DD, I noticed DS was more emotional and more sensitive. I think partly due to his age and partly because he was noticing changes in me physically as well as mentally.

That being said, I wouldn't insist on a bib at mealtime. Sure, he'll make a few messes while he learns to eat neatly, but it's all a part of the learning process. He won't learn until he gets a chance to try. I wouldn't take off his shirt either -- you wouldn't do that at a restaurant or at someone's house, so why bother doing it at home? Otherwise he's going to think it's the "normal" thing to do and attempt to take off his shirt whenever you try to feed him in public too.

Unfortunately, with toddlers, you can't expect them to obey all the time. They are developing their own personalities and will want to try new things the way they want to try them. You'll have to pick and choose your battles. I teach DS that there are consequences for his lack of action. If he doesn't want to pick up his toys, I'll tell him that he has to pick them up otherwise they are going into the trash. I have actually tossed a couple of cheapie toys to show him I mean business (read: Happy Meal/Dollar Store toys). If he doesn't want to get dressed after his bath, I tell him that he can sit on the bed naked, but only kids wearing clothes get to go to the store with Mommy later on. It almost always works. I'm not rewarding him per se, but rather teaching him that sometimes we have to do things we don't want to do so we don't have to deal with the consequences of not doing it.

There are times I do give in just because it's not worth the time and effort for either one of us (like when he wants to take a toy in the car that I normally wouldn't let him take, but we are running late for an appointment, that sort of thing). But like I said, you have to pick and choose what you want to stand firm on and what you are willing to bend a little for.

[JBaxter]

I think it was about 12 months when we went through the "I'm not wearing the bib". If it was really messy I just took his shirt off.

[chlobo]

I totally agree with Caroline. I think its completely appropriate to worry about testing but I just don't think you should mess with meals that are otherwise going well and you don't really know the reason for his behavior (preference v. definace). They'll be a lot more battles to come.

[BellaGirl]

One thing to try is to ask him to put the bib on himself...and give lots of praise for when he does it on his own. ??? This sometimes works for our 23mo...but mostly he won the bib battle many many months ago. We just do tons of laundry at our house!!!

One thing to definitely try....Yoplait Thick and Creamy yogurt!!! This stuff sticks to the spoon and makes a lot less of a mess than regular yogurts.

[WitMom]

No words of advice from me, but I just wanted to let you know you are not alone. We went through this EXACT SAME THING last night with our 18 month old daughter. 'Nuff to make you crazy some days! I had to laugh when I signed in this morning and saw this as a topic.

[bunnisa]

>My question is when do kids learn how to be neat without a bib
>if they are expected to wear one until well into toddlerhood?

DS has gotten progressively neater as he's gotten older. Trust me when I say that letting him go bib-free and ruin a shirt in NO WAY discourages him from being messy next time! Neatness at mealtimes is just something that comes with age, in my experience. For us, it's not a behavior issue, it's a coordination and attention thing.

>Like being quiet in church- my kid needs to not disrupt the
>whole congregation so I need to teach him to be quiet for over
>an hour. So in order to do that I have to give him the chance
>to learn by sitting near the back and whispering direction and
>being prepared to take him out (and losing some sort of
>privledge in the process) for being too loud.

For things like you have outlined above, I practice at home first. We try quiet times and progressively increase their length. Or we work on table manners at home before we have to go to a wedding. I don't expect him to be perfect (he's a toddler, after all) and we roll with that, but like in sports, we "practice before the game".


Bethany
blessed wife and mama to two!

"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-Justin Torres

[kijip]

>DS has gotten progressively neater as he's gotten older. Trust
>me when I say that letting him go bib-free and ruin a shirt in
>NO WAY discourages him from being messy next time! Neatness at
>mealtimes is just something that comes with age, in my
>experience. For us, it's not a behavior issue, it's a
>coordination and attention thing.

IME I think many kids can learn to be neat far earlier than we give them credit for. Toby started self-feeding and eating without a bib and he was eating neatly and drinking neatly from open glasses around age 18 months.


ETA: for us "quiet in church" is a whole different ballgame than practicing being quiet at home. Toby quietly plays/sits each day for longer than mass but my apartment lacks the ohhh and ahhh effect of candles, an altar, the music that he loves and a cathedral full of stained glass. All of which motivate him to say thing like "I like FIRE" and "Let's take ANOTHER can to the BASKET" loudly to the congreation. So I resort to not letting him light a candle after church if he has been too loud, LOL.

[kijip]

>DS has gotten progressively neater as he's gotten older. Trust
>me when I say that letting him go bib-free and ruin a shirt in
>NO WAY discourages him from being messy next time! Neatness at
>mealtimes is just something that comes with age, in my
>experience. For us, it's not a behavior issue, it's a
>coordination and attention thing.

IME I think many kids can learn to be neat far earlier than we give them credit for. Toby started self-feeding and eating without a bib and he was eating neatly and drinking neatly from open glasses around age 18 months.


ETA: for us "quiet in church" is a whole different ballgame than practicing being quiet at home. Toby quietly plays/sits each day for longer than mass but my apartment lacks the ohhh and ahhh effect of candles, an altar, the music that he loves and a cathedral full of stained glass. All of which motivate him to say thing like "I like FIRE" and "Let's take ANOTHER can to the BASKET" loudly to the congreation. So I resort to not letting him light a candle after church if he has been too loud, LOL.

[squimp]

I don't think not wearing a bib teaches kids to be neat. They can learn that by watching, practicing and a few gentle nudges ("turn the spoon this way, so it scoops up the yogurt"). Just my 2 cents.

I let DD pick out her own bib at around age 2 - that seems to help her want to wear it more. She still says "I picked this bib". She still wears one when she's eating really messy stuff that I'd prefer not to clean up, like spaghetti sauce on a white or light pink top. But then I tuck a napkin in my collar when I'm eating spaghetti!

[kijip]

Well, it did for my kid and he is after all the kid I have the most understanding of and experience with ;). He has a decidely prissy personality when it comes to having stuff on his shirt, hands or face. So in all honesty I KNOW that having refried beans, spagetti sauce and yogurt on his hands taught him to not make a mess just like wetting his pants taught him to run to the bathroom. ;)

I do think letting the child pick the bib is a good idea for whan the parents want to use a bib, I just don't think it is really needed for all families. It stands to reason that hands on practice helps. For example: Toby has seen me open the PO Box a hundred times but it was not until he tried everyday for a week and he could turn the key and open the box and then close it again. ;)

[megs4413]

is it possible that he's behaving differently because he is starting to FEEL the changes that are happening in the family? DD has had some strange battles with me in the past that I think were related to insecurity she was feeling from other major family changes. If you want him to wear the bib (which i totally understand cause DD is required to wear a bib) maybe take him to the store and let him pick out a style he likes a lot? I see that you said the real issue here is his defiance and honestly, I think maybe it's not related to him being defiant at all. Has anything else been going on that would make him stressed? Kids are tricky to figure out and it sounds like you're working hard to be the best mom you can be....hang in there...it's gonna pass.

[bunnisa]

>IME I think many kids can learn to be neat far earlier than we
>give them credit for. Toby started self-feeding and eating
>without a bib and he was eating neatly and drinking neatly
>from open glasses around age 18 months.

Well, that's great that it worked that way for you, but that's not my experience, and not from any failure on my part to "give (my son) credit".

All children are not alike. My SIL's DS at one year old would walk around the house holding a box of Cheerios and not spill a single one. My son at that age would have decorated the house with them.


Bethany
blessed wife and mama to two!

"And children are always a good thing, devoutly to be wished for and fiercely to be fought for."
-Justin Torres

[lisams]

When DD got to that stage, we just used an old t-shirt that went on either over her shirt she was wearing or I took that one off and put on the old shirt. It worked great and she didn't protest.

Funny how the older they get, the messier they are! Seriously I do more laundry now then when she was a baby, and she's 3 now!! Now it's the grass stains, glue stick, markers, playdough, etc!

[kijip]

>Well, that's great that it worked that way for you, but that's
>not my experience, and not from any failure on my part to
>"give (my son) credit".
>
>All children are not alike. My SIL's DS at one year old would
>walk around the house holding a box of Cheerios and not spill
>a single one. My son at that age would have decorated the
>house with them.

Bethany, that would be why I said "IME, I think MANY kids...". I in no way meant to imply that all kids were the same. I am sorry my post read that way to you.

[californiagirl]

Here's an alternate way of thinking about it; instead of thinking about it as giving in, think about it as picking your battles. So you could say "I'm not training him that he can get away with things; I'm training him that I don't argue for the sake of arguing, that he can trust that there's something really important when I choose to draw the line." Then you have just as much advice to "pick your battles" behind you as you would have "be firm" advice if you chose to hold the line. Because you sound like honestly, your gut says "It's a bib; I don't care that much" and it's the voices from outside saying "You're doomed". I don't think you are doomed. I think you're fine. You just need more voices so you can pick the ones that work for you...

(Picking your battles comes from "Time Out For Parents" by Cheri Huber. Little tiny odd book, reassuring and practical. Gentle parenting from a zen perspective.)

[squimp]

Sounds like it was in his personality ;).