How much sleep should a 9 month old be getting?-I'm desperate

[mommyoftwo]

Linnea hardly ever sleeps. She goes to bed between 11 and midnight. It had been midnight but I've finally gotten her to move it up a bit so it's been more like 11 the last few nights. But then she gets up at 6:30ish (it had been 7:30ish when she went to bed later). She will usually take a short nap late morning and that's it! She will fall asleep in the car and sometimes in a baby carrier. She looks tired, but if she takes another nap, she goes to bed even later. If she happens to fall asleep before 11, she thinks it is a nap and wakes up ready to play a couple hours later. Twice last week I tried to let her cry it out from 1-2:30am because she wanted to play. I didn't know what else to do. Sometimes she doesn't take a nap at all. I can't imagine that she is getting enough sleep. I know I'm not. She still wakes up at least twice at night to nurse as well. Should I be concerned about this? Is there anything I can do about it?

ETA a few things.

[Lovingliv]

Big hugs to you Jessica! Olivia was the exact same way. From birth to six weeks, she was a dream. She slept 6-7 hours every night and then napped frequently during the day! From 6 weeks on, not so much. She stopped napping and would take a cat nap for 45 minutes one time daily. She would go down at 8pm but up every three hours. I was a total mess. I nursed (and still am) so I would automatically nurse her everytime she cried. Finally when she was 11 months I had my DH go into her at night. He would hold her for a few minutes and she would fall back asleep, no problem. Some nights she will not settle, and I do have to nurse her, but it is not the norm. Now she is really starting to sleep for 5-6 hour stretches at night.
Right around the time she started with the stretches, she started napping for two hours daily!!!
And Liv would always wake up at 2am and think it was time to play. A few times DH got up and took her down stairs to play because she would not settle.
Sorry this is so long,,,,but I guess what worked for Liv was my DH going in at night. When she would see me she would want to nurse. When she see him, she would just cuddle. She stopped waking up when she realized it was just to cuddle!
Now, I should add that Liv had some weight gain issues in the first year, so i was trying to give her as much milk as often as I could.
HTH!

[mommyoftwo]

Boy we sound so much alike. We even have the weight gain issues. She was off the charts for a while but is finally back on at the 1st percentile. I would have DH get up with her and he does every once in a while when I just can't take it any longer, but he is a surgical resident and either not home because he is on call or is utterly exhausted and trying to get a few hours of sleep because he is on call the next day. All of this is complicated by the fact that I have chronic fatigue syndrome and really need about 12 hours of sleep to function anywhere close to normal, sigh. At one point Linnea was getting up seven times a night and I was ready to shoot myself. It's now between 2 and five times but usually 2-3.

[newnana]

Hi Jessica,
Sleep is so hard. Lord knows I'm better mommy when I've had mine, I think we all are. I don't know how we do it, but do know that when DD sleeps more, she sleeps better. If she's too tired, she sleeps terribly, waking up a bunch, staying up later, getting up earlier.

We finally had to break the bad cycle by making a rigid routine. We kept that for a long while and now we can be more flexible. Now DD goes to bed every night between 6:30 and 7:00. That's rough because that means we only get to play with her for about an hour after getting her home from day care and us getting home from work.

I took a few weeks off and we only left the house to go for walks. Since DD will only take one nap at day care that is 1.5-2.5 hours long at 12:30, that is the routine we followed here. We'd get up in the morning whatever time she woke up5:30-7:00, but typically closer to 6:00. She gets up at the same time no matter what time she goes to sleep. Since she'll only do one nap, we had to adjust bed time accordingly.

So we'd get up. Then we'd go around the house and open all the blinds together to let her know its morning and it's okay to wake up and play. For us, we never play in the middle of the night. Dark= bed time. Then we'd have breakfast and go for a walk (get a little vitamin D and more sun exposure to regulate her little body clock). Then we'd play hard and she'd get a little alone time in her room to play and poop (she likes to be alone for that, I can't blame her) while I attempt a shower or dig something out of the freezer for supper). Play, eat, play, eat. With DD, the key was lots of little meals and she had to see me eat. I realized I was only eating when she was asleep or at day care, so she never saw DH and I consume anything and I think that was contributing to her hunger strikes. Then 12:00 rolled around and we'd eat, read a story or do something else quiet after darkening her room. We kept the same night time routine for the nap except skipping the bath. After she wakes up, same routine for the afternoon: eat, walk, play, eat, play, eat, play, eat, bath, bedtime routine- zonked for 10-12 hours with maybe 1-2 wake ups.

Wow that was long. It took about a week for her to actually start sleeping like that and another week for her to really settle into the routine. That was in November and we've been doing it ever since. We can be more flexible with the nap time and bed time now, but if she ever misses the nap or its a short one or she goes to bed over an hour late we know we're in for a rough night and it isn't worth it.

Obviously this won't work for everyone for a whole host of reasons, but I thought you might like to know what we did. Following the same routine, it just seems to be an age/weight thing now that she is waking up less at night. Starting at about 11.5 months she started consistently sleeping through the night- until she got sick 2 weeks ago and we're back to one wake up at 2 am that lasts about an hour and a half. Poor thing is miserable and we're all sick so we feel her pain :)

Good luck! Let us know if you find anything that works. Thanks,
Michelle

[Judegirl]

Hi Jessica. My name's Jude and I have a 2-year old that didn't sleep much, from the time she was born until now.

I agonized over this for 18 months. It was a source of much anxiety, and I drove everyone on the boards completely batty. She just didn't sleep much - not at night, not at naps. Even when she's dead tired; she's like a trucker at the 13th hour trying to stay on the road.

Sometimes it affects her mood, mostly it doesn't. It doesn't make a difference. She's what I call "sleep-averse" and that's all there is to it.

Please, please try not to let this consume you like it did me. Knowing how important sleep is for healthy bodies (both hers and ours!) I stressed and stressed over this. The upshot was - and is - that my kid just doesn't sleep as much as most kids. Period. No matter what I do. I messed with bedtimes. I read 4 books on the topic, I woke her up earlier, later, I swung her on a blanket, put her in a swing... the list goes on and on.

She's over 2 and we drive or stroll or baby carry for EACH AND EVERY NAP. No naps in the crib for several months.

I'm not saying you shouldn't ry to get her to bed earlier and earler, aiming for the "magical" 7pm. (When we did that, she started waking for the day at 3am.) But if it doesn't work, when nothing's working, it's much, much better to look at yourself in the mirror and say "Hmm. My kid is just not much of a sleeper. Weird."

I suspect that this won't help because someone told me exactly this (over and over) when I was in your shoes, and while it helped a lot to know I wasn't alone, still I worried. More than anything else since she was born, I worried about sleep.

She's a kid now. She still doesn't sleep. She sometimes says she's tired, lies down for a minute, makes a snoring sound, and pops up saying "Time to wake up, Rory!" She's a happy, healthy, active, talkative, good-natured kid who just does not sleep. And I just can't worry about it anymore.

If you are not in this boat, then something will work for you. If you are, then welcome aboard! In that case, Linnea's in good company, I must say. :)

Best,
Jude

[mommyoftwo]

I think I'm in the same boat you are. I'm more worried about me surving than her I think. She just doesn't seem to need much sleep. I totally know what you mean about putting her to bed earlier. It just means my day starts earlier. I can't get her to sleep in the crib. She still sleeps in the swing. Most of the time it doesn't have to be moving. She just doesn't like to sleep laying down. I think that's why she falls alseep in the baby carrier and the car seat. I'm really glad to know that I'm not the only one to experience this. It just doesn't seem possible that a baby could need so little sleep. She went down to one nap at four months. I can't believe that at nine months she is starting to give naps up altogether. It's just nuts. Somehow it helps to know that I'm not alone though. Thanks for responding.

[Lovingliv]

I had CFS in college,.,,,so I feel for you! It is really hard when all you want is a few hours to catch up on and she won't sleep!
She may not change, like Jude has posted. Any chance you can have someone come in and help you? Any other family around or friends?
My friends without kids were insanely helpful, always offering to come over so I could take a nap.

[kristine_elen]

I think they're supposed to sleep like 10-12 hours at night and take two daytime naps. The more they sleep in the day, the better they'll sleep at night. I'm not a fan of crying it out, but when you put her down in the day, what happens? Can you let her cry for just a few minutes? I find that generally if my daughter gets overtired it's harder for her to go down and she has to cry for a little while to finally soothe herself. Again, I don't like the "Let them cry for five hours and who cares if they puke and poop all overthemselves?" method.

[nfowife]

My DD is a pretty good sleeper, but hasn't always been. I really would try to get her down much earlier. Are you against CIO? It might be worth trying if you feel she is truly sleep deprived. My DD has gone down quite early for a really long time, but we had 3-4 nightwakings for a long time. Then at 9 months she just started STTN, it was like a miracle! And around that time her naps kind of got better too, more regular I mean. I do think that some kids just aren't good sleepers, but that doesn't mean that they don't NEED sleep. They just need more help getting it. I would try to do whatever you can (including CIO if you aren't averse to it) to get her to sleep earlier so she can have 11-12 hours of sleep a night. I'd focus on that first, and then tackle naps because the naps might naturally get better if her nightime sleep gets better. I found that a crappy nap day around that age really disrupted nightime sleep and vice versa. If you can start a good nightime routine, the naps might follow hopefully. Hugs and know that you are doing the best you can with 2 kids and lack of sleep that you need!

[cchavez]

In his most recent book, Ferber says most 9 months olds need 12.25 hrs total. But most other sleep books say they need more. hth

[sarahbrown29]

Last Christmas, DD got into a HORRIBLE sleep routine. We had several nights in a row where we were keeping her up really late and then we went to my in-laws for a week and she slept in our room in a PNP. It was horrible. She was up every hour and the only thing that would get her back to sleep was to nurse.

When we came home, her sleeping habits were non-existent. After a month of getting up every 2-3 hours to nurse and having 1-1 1/2 hr naps total during the day, we had to put Ella on VERY rigid schedule. I agree with PP that this really works! We put her down for naps at 10am and 2pm and to bed at 7pm. We let her CIO for an hour (if necessary) at 10am and 1 1/2 hr (HORRIBLE!) at 2pm. She was almost always ready for bed at 7pm and usually went to sleep really easily. In the night, I would get up once (around 2am) to nurse, and that was it until 6am.

It took about a week to get her into this schedule, and another week for her to sleep through the night. DD is 13 months now and is a fantastic napper and sleeper! If she doesn't nap well during the day - usually because I push her and she falls asleep in the car - then she doesn't sleep well at night. Sleeping during the day is 100% related to sleeping well at night.

It was really hard for me to let DD CIO. DH and I would lie awake in bed listening to her scream. If you need a baby monitor in your room to hear your baby, maybe you just need to turn it off during her nap time, and use that time to take a nap yourself. If you are concerned about her crying too long, maybe set your alarm?

GOOD LUCK! It is never easy to get a child to sleep when she doesn't want to!!!

[megs4413]

Oh poor Mama! DD was JUST LIKE THIS! we sound soooo similar. All the way up until she was about 10 months old we struggled to get her to go to sleep sometimes until 1 or 2 in the morning. and then she'd wake up several times through the night and sometimes LITERALLY wouldn't go back to bed at all. She napped sort of like a cat just sleeping for 20-30 minutes if she got comfortable enough and looked EXHAUSTED! I talked to the ped about it at her 9 month appointment and she pointed me toward a sleep clinic. Do they have one in your city? I don't have any particular advice as DD just kind of changed the way she worked on her own...I will tell you the only things we did differently (though I dont' know if they helped or hurt in the long run)

-we love to have friends over and usually let them stay until they are ready to go home, but we had to make a rule that 9:30 was closing time at our house so DD didn't feel so COMPELLED to stay up
-we put her to sleep at the same time every night regardless of what else was going on or how tired she seemed to be.
-unfortunately we had to resort to a revised version of CIO. We were doing attachment parenting and tried rocking her as she cried, and she did fall asleep like this for awhile, but she didn't like waking up in her crib and it necessitated cosleeping (which out of necessity had been happening all along). At 9 mos. she was just too large and squirmy to be in our bed anymore as DH and I couldn't get a minute's rest even in a king size bed. So we had to just stick her in the crib and let her cry, though she did get periodic hugs and kisses and a bottle if I was truly in pain!
-we eliminated the bedtime bath--i know it's the opposite of what some will tell you to do, but the bath wound her up more than it settled her it turned out, but we did keep the infant massage part of the routine (she LOOOVES having her feet rubbed!)
-we made the room almost completely dark, I thought leaving some light would be comforting to her, but I guess it was stimulating and caused her to want to be awake more
-we stopped feeding her late in the evening, again this is opposite to what some will tell you, but DD had reflux issues and I think laying down after eating just an hour or so before, was aggravating to her condition

I think the other half of the puzzle for us lay in her naptimes. She NEVER napped. Not even as a newborn so I didn't know how to make that happen. I started structuring my day AROUND her nap...I couldn't do anything during naptime becuase the slightest sound would have her up and i did have to let her CIO at naptime at first, but it only took a couple of weeks to have the naps going and the crying stopped. FWIW, at that age DD wanted just one nap and not two. She started doing an after-lunch 2-3 hour nap instead of both a morning and afternoon nap.

You may have tried all or some or none of these things already, but I thought I'd chime in. DD is 14 mos. now and is sleeping 9:30 pm to 8:30-9:30 (it varies) everyday with one wake up at 1:30 am (i have no idea why). She naps every day from 12:30 until 2:30-3:30 (also varies slightly). It's a total BLESSING! I hope you get some rest soon...try to take care of you..i KNOW what it's like to be sleep deprived for months on end. I also ended up having some insomnia trouble from the disruption of my own sleep pattern. So be on the look out for your own health as well as DD's..

BTW, (sorry this is sooo long) the ped told us not to worry too much about it because DD was relatively healthy otherwise. Good luck and BIIIIIIG hugs! Let us know if we can do anything for you!

[kimbe]

No real advice because DD has sleep issues herself that we are trying to work out. Just support! I know how frustrating it can be. Hugs!

Oh, DD still gets up 2x a night to nurse and she is almost a year!

[scarletsmommy]

I would just like to take a minute to sympathize. Who would have thought sleeping topics could be so stressful? I have been in your shoes and was very discouraged. Keep your chin up and keep trying new things. You never know what will work.

For us, the theory of 3 nights breaks a habit held true. It started accidently (DH thought he turned on the monitor) and we just gritted our teeth the next 2 nights. By night #4, all was well for at least 8 hours. I thought I heard angels singing!! 8 HOURS!!!! FABULOUS!!!

I hope you find a solution that works for you soon!!

[mommyoftwo]

Boy, we really do have a lot in common. Have you recovered from the CFS? If so, how long did it take? While I know there are people with more severe cases, mine is definitely not mild. I have been sick for over five years. I spent the first nine months or so in bed. I slept 20-22 hrs out of 24 for a really long time. While I have definitely improved drastically, I am a long way from normal.

As far as getting help goes, my husband is a surgical resident and we moved away from our family in Illinois to Ohio for residency. We try to fly my mom in every once in a while to help, but we are having a really tough time financially right now and can't afford to do it. Boy would I love to. She is a teacher and has time off right now but we can't afford to fly her here. We know a few people here, but since dh is never home we don't have much of a social life. I try to make it to church (and we do have some church friends who help occasionally) but I don't get there regularly because it's so hard to do with two little ones and the hardest time of the day for me is morning. After a couple of bad experiences with people not understanding how incapacitated I am (I act normal when I go to church etc. and they don't see how my life is the rest of the time), I am hesitant to ask for help. The last time, two women from my church came to help me clean the house and then complained to the pastor's wife that I didn't do enough even though I worked so hard that I had a relapse for two weeks. So I feel kind of stuck. I desparately need someone to come help me regularly but I can't afford it. I am for the most part living the life of a single mom though my husband does help when he is home. Sorry, not trying to turn this in to a rant, it's just been tough lately.

[mommyoftwo]

I'm not averse to CIO but it doesn't seem to be working for us. Twice last week, when she woke up in the middle of the night wanting to play, I let her cry for 1.5 hours. I finally gave up and was able to rock her to sleep a little while later. I'm not sure exactly how to go about getting her to sleep earlier, but when it does happen, she will not stay asleep no matter what I do (hence the crying for 1.5 hours). I definitely see with Amelia that bad night time sleep affects everything and makes her sleep less overall, but more sleep for Linnea during the day means less at night and vice versa. I'm not sure how to break out of that cycle or if that is even possible.

[overcome]

Jude- I LOVE your post. Such good advice...

Jessica, I, too, feel your pain. I have read so many books, couldn't make up my mind what was best, blah blah blah. Finally, this past Saturday I decided to follow Ferber's plan TO THE LETTER.

Hearing my dd cry was true agony. I just kept telling myself "she is learning to fall asleep on her own" I would reread the pertinent parts of Ferber's book to reassure me that I was doing the "right" thing.

We are having some success!! Now I realize by going in and picking her up I was perpetuating the problem. Things are not perfect now, but each day gets a little better in some way.

After a couple more days, I would like to start a more rigid schedule too. I am waiting to see what her wake up time will be b/c it has ranged from 4am - 6am.

The tough part is what works for one person may not work for another and it is so difficult to keep trying new approaches. Add sleep deprivation to that (and a DH who can't stand to hear her cry, questions the whole plan, but refuses to read the book for himself--but that is another post) and you've got quite an unpleasant situation There were literally times in the wee hours of the morning when I questioned my decision to have a baby!!

I would really consider trying Ferber. I know CIO is not popular with many people, but I also know many people have had success with it when they follow his plan.

Never in my wildest imagination did I think the topic of sleep would consume me.

Hang in there!!! You are NOT alone.

[mommyoftwo]

Yup, I have the insomnia problem too. I've actually had that for a while and was on medication for a long time. I'm off medication for the first time in over 5.5 years because I'm so exhausted. However, I still have a really hard time falling asleep. I know she will be up any minute so I can't relax enough to fall asleep.

We have reflux issues too so she has been sleeping in the swing. Well, now I can't get her to sleep anywhere else. The swing doesn't even have to be moving. But the moment I put her in the crib she wakes up immediately no matter how sound asleep she was. She usually nurses to sleep, but if I think she will go down and isn't interested in nursing, I put her in the swing and turn it on. She's super tiny so I know I can get away with it for a long time weight wise, but I have no idea how to break the habit. We have the room completely dark with black out shades and everything. I don't know if it helps, but it can't hurt. I have recently (less than a week)started putting her in the swing after she has been up for a couple of hours or so and turning it on. It's been the most consistent napping she has had in a really long time. The problem is, she will only go down if I turn the swing on. I know I've gotten us into some really bad habits, but I'm not sure how to break them.

[mommyoftwo]

I think I need to get a copy of his book and read it. We obviously need to train her to soothe herself to sleep and we need to develop some sort of schedule. CIO did not work at all with Amelia. She would just get so worked up that she would become inconsolable even after we would get her. Linnea isn't as bad, but just never falls asleep. It seemed to work a little better when she was younger and couldn't sit/stand yet. Now, if i try the crib, she just trys to climb out of it and gets very angry.

[mommyoftwo]

We have three tiny bedrooms which are all connected. When she cries, it is like she is in the room with you it's so loud. I wish I could just sleep through it, but since I have sleep issues myself, it just doesn't work. DH on the other hand can sleep through anything and never realizes what is going on. I think I'm going to focus on getting a routine down and see if that helps.

[chlobo]

Hugs. Sleep issues are so hard.

I don't have any real advice. Just wanted to let you know there is another member of the sleep trouble club. My DD still only sleeps 9.5-10 hrs/night. And it doesn't matter what we do. It doesn't matter how long she naps, how far she runs, how much she nurses. That's all she sleeps. I think some kids are just that way. We went so far as to visit a sleep specialist and after trying all her advice our kid still doesn't sleep that much.

You can try some of the suggestions people have given but I'd like to echo Jude that you shouldn't be afraid to accept that this is the way it is and try not to stress about it (I know that's really hard).

Any chance you can get a mother's helper in during the day so you can nap?

[megs4413]

Jessica-

Please dont' beat yourself up on the bad habits! Trust me I've fallen into some big ones because of the sleep problems we had.

Here's a whopper--I let her sleep with a pillow! I know it seems crazy with the SIDS risk but I had to start doing this at about 9 months old because no one was sleeping at our house. I figured since she was big enough to stand up in the crib on her own, she should be Ok with a pillow....i know that might be wrong and terrible advice and I MAY get some flames on that, but I did it. It worked for her reflux and she's doing quite well. What have you been doing for the reflux? I think getting it under control was key to her improvement in the sleep dept. DD was on prevacid for a long time and as I said we stopped doing the later night feed. I also added the pillow to prop her some (which you could do another way I'm sure). If you don't do a Rx now and don't want to start...my ped suggested Mylanta Supreme when she was REALLY struggling. It helped! I didn't give it to her in a "dose" I dipped a pacifier in it and let her suck it off of the pacifier, so she wasn't getting a ton but it seemed to help when the acid was really bad (this is on top of the prevacid). It may be worth talking to your ped about it.

Has your DD had an upper GI? I don't know how severe her reflux issues are, but they could be contributing to her sleep problems so anything to help get that under control IMO would be good.

I think the key to breaking bad habits is to do it slowly, in a way you're comfortable with, and one at a time....i was always trying to solve all the problems we'd had all at once, but I guess the best thing to do is tackle them each individually and having one problem taken care of helps with getting the other ones under control KWIM?

Last question for you, if you let her CIO (if you have tried that as I'm sure ppl have suggested) does she end up vomiting or having reflux difficulty? THis was the biggest problem in our efforts to get DD sleep. The CIO method was just horrible for her reflux!

I'm so sorry about the insomnia. I totally relate! I haven't gone to medicine (cause I'm scared of it!) yet but even though DD is sleeping now, I still have trouble getting to sleep and staying asleep. It's like I'm on guard all night long. My body just won't rest. I know how you feel about the...any minute DD is going to start crying...it's a horribly dreadful feeling in the back of your mind that haunts you enough to keep ypu up. I think you guys need some big time BBB mojo! let's get this mama some rest ladies! We need a solution!

[mommyoftwo]

Her reflux is severe although she seems to finally being doing a little better (i.e. she is actually gaining weight). She was off the charts for a long time and is finally back on them in the 1st percentile or something like that. At 9.5 months she weighs a mere 14 lbs 10oz. She is on prevacid and sees a pediatric gastroenterologist on a regular basis. He suggested getting an upper endoscopy done if we feel she is not improving, but I've been trying to avoid it. I can definitely tell when her stomach is bothering her (she also has a lot of food insensitivities) because then she just doesn't sleep period. I have an anti-spasmodic that I give her then to help with the cramping but I don't know that it does much good. I can't actually put her in the crib right now (I'm embarrassed to admit that) because she started sitting, standing, and crawling all in the same weekend about a month ago and the crib needs to be dropped. My DH keeps saying that he will do it, but is never around to do it. I do think I might try propping up the mattress once we get it to be usuable again. I don't blame you for trying the pillow thing.

CIO hasn't seemed to affect her reflux that I'm aware of (she doesn't end up vomiting more than usual), but I do worry about that a little bit.

I am going to start working on a routine and I'll take it a step at a time. Thanks so much for your support.