I am so glad we vaccinated DS

[kozachka]

Some days I wonder whether vaccinating is the right thing to do (like when I met a 3 year old boy at the playground who got diabetes after being vaccinated) but today I was truly happy that we did. Apparently more than half the kids in DS daycare are down with chicken pox. I am not even exaggerating. There are two buildings and all but 2 kids in the other building are sick. Quite a few in our building are too but fortunately not in DS' group. When I found this out few days ago I freaked out, I can't afford to pull DS out of daycare for 21 days or whatever the incubation period for chicken pox, besides it would be too late anyway, since all kids in the building eat in the same canteen and an older sister of one of the boys in DS' group is sick.

Today DS saw his pediatrician and she confirmed to me that since he got vaccinated for chicken pox in the States (we are in Ukraine right now and it is not a mandatory vaccine), he is probably not going to get sick and even if he does, it should be in a pretty light form. I can't tell you how relieved I felt :). Now let's hope my little boy stays healthy.

[aliceinwonderland]

Yes, international travel is one of the main reasons we vaccinated DS, who is part of the toddler jet set crowd :) :)

Sending healthy vibes to Daniel and you.

[JBaxter]

Both my son's were vaccinated but had severe cases of chicken pox several years later( fevers 104 with spots from hair to soles of feet). Its not a 100% vaccine and dont count on a mild case.

[kozachka]

I am so sorry to hear that both your sons had bad case of chicken pox despite having been vaccinated. What's the point of vaccinating then? Scratching my head. I hate to feel helpless but feel like there is nothing I can do at this point other than hope that DS will be OK one way or the other.

[octmom]

My DS had chicken pox last month and he was vaccinated. His case was very mild though- less than 20 spots all together, no fever, minimal itching. I was worried about DD because she is too young to be vaccinated for chicken pox, but she didn't get them. I am BFing her and the pediatrician said that would do a lot to help protect her.

Hope you can avoid it completely!

Jerilyn
DS, Sean 10/03
DD, Katie 3/06

"Baby makes days shorter, nights longer, home happier, and love stronger."

[millerpjm]

DS got the chicken pox vaccine, but still got a mild case (about 40 pox but hardly any itching) so now we're covered. Before the dots showed up, he was with my friend's 2 kids who've had the vaccine, and they did not get it. So, it's still a possibility, but I'm glad he got the vaccine.

Jen

[Raidra]

I'm so glad you feel good about vaccinating. Back in my pre-mommy days, I worked at a hospital and saw what horrible things can happen to kids who get the diseases we vaccinate against. Sure, there are risks, and yes, it is possible to still get something like chicken pox after getting vaccinated. But vaccines work for the majority of people without incident.

There have been several cases of people coming down with measles in Boston in the last month or two. These were all adults working in one of the big office buildings near where my husband works. I'm so glad I choose to vaccinate my boys, or I'd be much more worried about my husband bringing something home.

[JElaineB]

We had a mumps outbreak here in Iowa recently and I was glad DS had one dose of MMR at any rate. We are in a college town, and his daycare has lot of student workers, so I was less worried than I might have been. (The mumps outbreak was affecting college students at a high rate. It can cause sterility and deafness, so it really was something to be concerned about).

Jennifer
mom to Jacob 9/27/02

[JBaxter]

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5513a3.htm

http://www.idph.state.ia.us/adper/common/pdf/mumps/mumps_update_062006.pdf

I was incorrect 64% had history of mmr.

[Lmoor]

Curious... where did you find that 84% were vaccinated? From this article on the Iowa cases, it looks like they only inquired about it with 133 patients, and of those 133, 87 had 2 doses... Which makes it about 39% with 2 doses? I also think it's interesting that so many were college students. I was required to get another one before starting college. Is that not the case anymore? Or is that state specific?

[JElaineB]

It still made me feel better to have him vaccinated. :-). If you look at the footnote of the report it does indicate confirmed cases could be asymptomatic, and that a good percentage of them seemed to be so (at one point they were testing anyone exposed to mumps to see if that had caught it). The report doesn't seem to indicate what percentage of asymptomatic cases had 2 doses of vaccine or vice versa.

Jennifer
mom to Jacob 9/27/02

[JBaxter]

.

[daisymommy]

I hate to chime in here, but the majority of the outbreaks in our country today are among vaccinated children. Lately it has been pertussis (whooping cough) or and measels & mumps.

[KBecks]

OK, I'm confused now! (Guess it happens a lot)

I'm guessing that more of the affected kids are vaccinated just because more kids are vaccinated.

It doesn't mean that NOT vaccinating offers any type of protection.

Have I got that right? Or is this one of those nebulous things?
Not trying to do pros/cons of vax, just trying to get a handle on the stats, which seem weird, but hey, weird things happen.

Good health to everyone and their kiddos!

[o_mom]

You are correct - more kids are vaccinated, so there will be more vaccinated kids with the disease.

Here is the thread with example stats I gave the last time this came up:

http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=37&topic_id=312417&mode=full

[maestramommy]

Okay, just to add to the confusion, there was an outbreak of pertussis at the school I used to work at, and all the affected kids were NOT vaccinated. Gave it to one of the teachers too! She's from Singapore so she wasn't too clear on whether she was vaccinated. However, I do believe they are now recommending that teens get vaccinated again.

[brittone2]

Well, further complicating things is that unvaxed children are more likely to be *diagnosed*. There are probably many vaxed kids that contract pertussis, etc. and simply are not diagnosed.

The increased awareness about pertussis has been a fairly recent thing, but again, kids that are unvaxed are more likely to receive that diagnosis when health officials realize they haven't had the vax. Pertussis is still fairly common in vaxed populations and the diagnosis can be missed in those groups...particularly in older kids (preteen/teen) and adults where sometimes the symptoms are fairly mild. In those cases, it often is labeled as something else, or a lingering cough/illness, but not necessarily pertussis.

Edited for clarity

[randomkid]

I'm glad you're DS is vaccinated as well. There are too many diseases that were all but eradicated in this country that are making a comeback due to international travelers and non-vaccinated children. I read multiple articles about this when I was deciding what to do with DD's vaccinations. One of the saddest was the story of a Mom who contracted pertussis during her pregnancy, but went undiagnosed. As she related in her story, "I gave my newborn son pertussis with my first kiss". The baby did survive, but was critically ill. When she researched where she may have contracted it, she found that it was most likely from an unvaccinated child (who had contracted pertussis) that she had contact with while she was pregnant.

There are many countries where there have been polio outbreaks and recently there were 4 children in Minnesota who had polio (although, thankfully, none suffered paralysis). Just Google "polio outbreaks" and you can find a lot of info. The information states that outbreaks are limited due to the high number of individuals who are vaccinated. I have worked with many patients who had polio when they were children and it is not something to take lightly.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was in Target and there was a woman in there talking loudly on her cell phone, then I also passed by the pharmacy when she was there talking to the pharmacists. I couldn't help overhearing that her elderly mother had mumps. She was laughing about it and thinking it quite funny (I'm sure her mother didn't find it funny at all). I was so glad that I didn't have DD with me even though she has had her 1st MMR. For all I know, the daughter could have been carrying it. The pharmacists were trying to educate her about the disease and that she shouldn't take it so lightly. Made me wonder how many people are out there that pass by you and can transmit something.

I'm glad when anyone decides to vaccinate their child as you are not only protecting your child, but mine as well.

BTW, I knew when I chose to vaccinate DD against chicken pox that it may not entirely protect her. However, both of my stepdaughters were vaccinated and have never had chicken pox and I'd rather have 20 or 30 dots any day over what I went through when I had them.

JMO, and now stepping down from my soapbox :-)

[jerseygirl07067]

Well said Kim, ITA! :)

Marcy

[essnce629]

>The mumps outbreak was
>affecting college students at a high rate. It can cause
>sterility and deafness, so it really was something to be
>concerned about.

Just to make it clear, mumps can only cause sterility in males who are past the age of puberty. Orchitis (inflamation of the testicles) occurs in up to 25% of postpubertal males who contract mumps, but it's very rare for it to actually lead to sterility. In order for it to lead to sterility, both testicles must be affected and this is extremely rare. If only one testicle is affected and actually becomes sterile, they can still go on to have children with no problems. That's why mumps is less problamatic if contracted in childhood-- there's no orchitis or sterility to worry about. If mumps are contracted in childhood you're protected for life, if you get the vaccine, however, you're more protected in childhood, but it may not be that protective in adulthood, when mumps can actually have more serious complications. Same thing goes with chickenpox-- I'd much rather Conner have chickenpox now, than as a teenager/adult when complications from it are much higher.

Deafness occurs in about 1 per 20,000 mumps cases-- usually in one ear only and it is usually transient (not permanent).

***Latia
Birth and Postpartum Doula

Conner 8/19/03 (homebirthed water baby)
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aug2003angel
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif Self-weaned at 24 months!

[brittone2]

I hope all parents can find peace with their decisions.

First, with regard to the Minnesota polio cases, those children had subclinical polio...it was picked up randomly and they had no signs of paralysis, etc. They contracted polio from someone exposed to the oral polio VACCINE and that was determined by looking at the strain they had. Oral Polio vax is no longer used in the US but is used in the rest of the world. There is some debate as to how many of the previously diagnosed cases of polio in the US are the result of exposure to the vax. In some people, oral polio vax DOES trigger paralysis, etc. which is why it is no longer used here in the US.
http://www.medpagetoday.com/PublicHealthPolicy/PublicHealth/tb1/1935

The child initially affected was also immune compromised.

Pertussis is contracted by the vaxed and unvaxed alike. One of the biggest carriers is older children as the vax immunity wanes over time (and there is debate about exactly how effective it is to start with). Lots of older kids and adults spread pertussis even though they were vaxed. Additionally, since the earliest children are usually vaxed for pertussis is 2 months of age, the newborn wasn't going to avoid contracting pertussis from the mother in the case you cited. Even a vaxed mother can easily acquire and transmit pertussis. You don't have to have contact with an unvaxed child by any stretch of the imagination. It happens quite often.

Mumps, as has been discussed here before, is not dangerous (in almost every case) if contracted in childhood, as it was a childhood illness that initally hit before kids encountered puberty, when it becomes a somewhat bigger concern. So it can also be argued that the vax has pushed it into an adulthood disease. There will always be breakthrough cases, even in the vaxed population. There is a certain percentage of people that no matter how many MMRs they receive, will never develop immunity (I know this is particularly true of Rubella). I don't have the number in front of me, but it is not a super small percentage by any stretch. If girls contracted Rubella in childhood, they would have natural immunity. WIth the introduction of the vax, it has been pushed into adulthood, where the risks are greater, and some people will *never* develop immunity from the vax no matter how many times they get it. As we saw with the recent mumps outbreaks, a large percentage of people were vaxed and still contracted the illness. A significant percentage of those people had subclinical cases...essentially no symptoms. Breakthrough cases will always happen and don't always come from a non vaxed person.

I could go on, and I realize that this subject is greatly annoying to many, but I just want to reiterate that it is possible to make an educated decision on either side of the fence.

Vaxes can cause a variety of devastating complications, as can natural disease. Each person weighs those risks for their own family differently.

Edited to add: a major concern with pertussis is that the virus is/has mutated into a different form from what is currently in the vaccine. That is nature, it is going to happen, and will happen again. There is no way currently to vax for all strains or predict what strains will arise in the future.

[randomkid]

I get frustrated because every vaccine related post, this happens. I almost didn't post earlier, but just couldn't help myself. I am well aware of everything you posted above.

The family in Minnesota was subclinical, but the fact is that they are carrying the virus and it is mutating, being passed around among unvaccinated children in the community. If they were vaccinated, it wouldn't be mutating because it wouldn't be getting passed around. The Amish typically have little contact with outside communities and it is a strain of the live vaccine. Since they usually don't vaccinate, where did they get it? Also, passing of the virus outside their community is limited because most of us are vaccinated. This is what frustrates me. It is the vaccination that STOPS the spread of the disease. However, Amish teenagers leave their community at some point to make a decision whether or not to stay in the Amish community. So, now they come into contact with those outside their own little world and that is how things get going.

What about the cases in Nigeria where they banned the polio vaccine because they thought the US was making them infertile and spreading AIDS with it? And just this week in Namibia...

http://www.polioeradication.org/content/general/Outbreak_UpdatesNMB20060606.asp

As you mentioned, the live vaccine is not used here anymore. I cannot understand why it is still used in other parts of the world, but I do know that by using the injected vaccine here we are protecting ourselves.

As for the pertussis case - I know the newborn would not have been vaccinated and I realize that the Mom could contract it. But, the fact is if she had not been in contact with an infected, unvaccinated child, this probably would not have happened to her newborn.

I am educated on both sides of the fence (mostly thanks to these boards) and I choose to vaccinate and appreciate it when others do as well.

[aliceinwonderland]

" I could go on, and I realize that this subject is greatly annoying to many [...]"


Indeed it is.

[m448]

>" I could go on, and I realize that this subject is greatly
>annoying to many [...]"
>
>
>Indeed it is.

I don't find it anymore annoying than the underlying attitude that non-vaxers are somehow ruining your children's health. That someone is glad their child is vaccinated is fine with me. That others find me not vaccinating my child a public health risk and WANT me to do otherwise is annoying.


Marielle


Ian - born 10/03
&
Ryan - born 01/06

[randomkid]

Let's just drop it. This happens every time and not everyone will ever agree on this subject. Sorry if I started another debate.

[aliceinwonderland]

Edited, filed under "dead horse".

[o_mom]

On a couple of points - the live vaccine is used elsewhere because it is an oral vaccine. It is much easier to administer than to have to find sterile needles for injections. It is also believed that the oral provides more immediate protection if the person is exposed to polio before they complete the series. The only reason it is not used here anymore is because the risk of encountering it in the US is almost zero, so we have the luxury of using the injectable.

Pertussis is everywhere - most carriers are adults, not unvaccinated kids. All the chronic coughing that goes on is rarely considered pertussis, but up to 30% of adults with a cough more than 6 weeks have pertussis. I most likely had it last year - could have gotten it anywhere. As much as you can argue that if that kid had been vaccinated, it can be argued that if we didn't unnaturally supress the disease, people would be exposed regularly - that Mom could have developed immunity naturally and not had to worry.

No vaccine is 100% effective - there will always be people who can contract the disease. It is highly unlikely that we will ever eliminate many of the vaccine prevenatable disease because of the nature of disease. So, a few Amish that don't vaccinate are not going to be the reason we can't wipe out polio.

[mamicka]

To be fair, the "essays" started with the pro-vax info, which I, for one, don't have a problem with. The point, IMO, is that to some people, this is a very important issue that warrants discussion. The fact that you don't think it does is fine & is your perogative. What I don't understand is why you feel the need to be mean & condescending about it.

[randomkid]

I am not being mean and condescending and generally do not get involved in heated threads because I am not that kind of person. However, I do feel the need to respond to your post. My "pro-vax essay" was in response to other posts that were implying that vaccinating is not effective. Just read the posts before mine.

If I didn't feel this issue warranted discussion, I would not have posted. I do think it is important, but as PPs said, they find it annoying. I was merely trying to end the debate that you seem to think I started (if, in fact, you are referring to my post as the one just above yours was deleted). It is quite apparent from multiple other threads that this has been discussed often on the boards. I just felt that the point was straying from the OPs post.

I may have a differing view, but there is no reason for you to get personal. I have not done that in any of my posts. Everyone is entitled to her own opinion and if you don't agree with mine, that doesn't make me mean and I don't appreciate being treated as such. Feel free to continue the discussion, but I am out of it.

If this was not directed at me, I missed the post that was deleted and maybe you were referring to that. I still feel there is no need to get personal.

[trumansmom]

I'm not locking it yet, but will if it continues in this direction. If anyone has something new to add to this thread, please do. Otherwise, let's back off and agree to disagree. Let's not make this personal, okay?

Jeanne
Mom to Truman 11/01 and Eleanor 4/04

[buddyleebaby]

I don't think a non-vaccinated child is a health risk. I respect everyones right to choose what they deem to be best for their child. I do, however, think that non-vaxers are only able to make this choice because the majority of the U.S. population does vaccinate.

If everyone stopped vaxing, there certainly would be a reoccurance of diseases mostly erradicated in our country. Althogh no vaccine can guard against the spread of disease 100%, not vaccinating does not guard against the spread of disease at all.

I understand the concerns about possible side effects of vaccines.
If we lived in a country where there were regular outbreaks of diseases not seen for years here thanks to vaccines, the cons of vaccinating would certainly take a backseat to trying to avoid serious illness, imo.

And so while it is annoying that someone would treat your child as if he or she has cooties it is equally annoying that some (amd I'm not saying you) treat those who choose to vax as uneducated on the subject. For some to choose not to vax is fine. To encourage the whole population to do so would be irresponsible.

[ppshah]

My understanding is that perussis is not a very effective vaccine. So-only about 70% will achieve immunity after 3-4 doses. Also immunity wanes during the late teens/adult years. Most adult get a minor cold like illness. It is young childern (<1) who get the sickest. The youngest of these haven't even received the full course of vaccines- so they are the most vunerable.

The child's immunization record rarely affects my index of suspicion for pertussis.

[mamicka]

Kim, I didn't respond to your post nor do I have any problem with it. I have not gotten personal with you in the least. I have not treated you in any way at all, mean or otherwise, since I didn't respond to you. Yes, it would be more clear had the post that I was responding to not been deleted.

Feel free to write essays on any subject that you'd like, I find most of the essay posts on this board to be quite interesting whether I agree with them or not.

[randomkid]

Thank you.

[megs4413]

That's a really good point Alicia. I never really thought of it that way.

FWIW, i think the comment that these discussions are "annoying" wasn't a personal dig on anyone or their posts/opinions...it's just annoying cause it gets heated and i think we would all rather just get along. It's much more pleasant! I totally understand why it's heated, though, bc it's such a personal decision regarding doing the best for your child that you can.

I don't know who said it, but, i too hope everyone has peace with what they decide for their kids and I hope all our little ones stay happy and healthy!

[mamicka]

:)

Allison

[m448]

>I don't think a non-vaccinated child is a health risk. I
>respect everyones right to choose what they deem to be best
>for their child. I do, however, think that non-vaxers are only
>able to make this choice because the majority of the U.S.
>population does vaccinate.
>
>If everyone stopped vaxing, there certainly would be a
>reoccurance of diseases mostly erradicated in our country.
>Althogh no vaccine can guard against the spread of disease
>100%, not vaccinating does not guard against the spread of
>disease at all.
>
>I understand the concerns about possible side effects of
>vaccines.
>If we lived in a country where there were regular outbreaks of
>diseases not seen for years here thanks to vaccines, the cons
>of vaccinating would certainly take a backseat to trying to
>avoid serious illness, imo.
>
>And so while it is annoying that someone would treat your
>child as if he or she has cooties it is equally annoying that
>some (amd I'm not saying you) treat those who choose to vax as
>uneducated on the subject. For some to choose not to vax is
>fine. To encourage the whole population to do so would be
>irresponsible.
>
>

Actually not so to your first paragraph. As a non vaxer I actually would prefer my sons to get a case of chicken pox and you vaxers make that hard for me LOL. Regarding the other vaccines while I'm not looking to infect my sons with all those diseases I actually consider the more serious scenarios of said diseases less of a risk than regularly putting the vaccines and all their ingredients in my child's body. I fortify his immune system so that he can fight off most illnesses and if not actually build a healthy immunity to the ones he gets. But like I said it's a personal decision that should rile no one and is certainly not based on whether you vax your child or not (my decision not to vaccinate my child that is).


Marielle


Ian - born 10/03
&
Ryan - born 01/06

[kijip]

Here is an article that I found interesting on this subject, pertaining to populations with lower rates of vaccinations:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9F00E3DB1038F933A05752C1A9649C8B63

When I was pregnant I was advised by my doctor to cancel a B and B trip to Vashon. As I understand it, Vashon has the highest rates of unvax-ed kids west of the Mississippi River.

[buddyleebaby]

I actually consider the more serious scenarios of said diseases less of a risk than regularly putting the vaccines and all their ingredients in my child's body.


I understand that, and I agree that it makes sense. My contention is that it only make sense because in the US, your child stands little chance of contracting said diseases, vaxed or not, and so the "more serious scenarios" do not play as much of a role when making your decision as it would in a country where those scenarios are not only real, but highly probable.

[buddyleebaby]

Good article.
My father had polio as a kid. he survived and he's perfectly healthy. Unfortunately he also passed it on to my grandfather who lived incapacitated for years before finally dying.

[brittone2]

Well, I'm not one who is 100 percent convinced that herd immunity is as effective as it is cracked up to be, by any stretch.

I also believe that many infectious diseases are taken care of through people developing natural forms of immunity for things they are exposed to regularly without necessarily knowing it (subclinical cases of things, which can be why titers will show immunity for diseases that some people were never aware they had), good nutrition, clean water, maternal antibodies being passed through breastfeeding, etc. I don't buy that vaxes are the biggest part of that.

Interestingly we continue to exist on this planet despite the fact that things like bubonic plague still circulate in the US (a month or two ago some was detected in CA), as well as things like tuberculosis. We don't have vaxes for either currently. Certain diseases happen in waves. They occur, they drop off on their own (even if we never develop a vax) and they mostly disappear, without vaccines (think SARS). They may mutate and come back years later, they may not. Certain strains of disease mutate over time (like pertussis) and may cause a temporary uptick in the number of people diagnosed with the disease. Then a less serious form comes about, and we don't hear about it as much anymore.

Edited to add this link. The first few paragraphs about waning natural immunity in mothers as santitation improved (so somewhat the opposite of what you'd expect, but interesting that nature had its own way of dealing with Polio initially):
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/rxforsurvival/series/diseases/polio.html

Vaxed kids can theoretically spread plenty of things quite effectively. Live virus vaxes like chicken pox and MMR can be shed through feces, etc. and theoretically can affect immune compromised or not yet vaxed kids. Again, pertussis is spread quite a lot among vaxed people and I am convinced it would be spread even if the vax rate was 100%. It mutates. It has never been one of the most effective vaxes. Pertussis mutates, and my understanding is that it doesn't require being hosted in an unvaxed person to have it happen.

There was a relatively recent high school outbreak of chicken pox and every single kid affected was vaxed. They could not identify even *one* unvaxed kid to blame. There are people here that have had fully vaxed kids contract CP, and it can happen even if your child isn't exposed to an unvaxed kid. The vax is not 100% effective, the disease mutates, mother nature happens.

If I were concerned my child would be at risk if more people stopped vaxing, I wouldn't broadcast my own thought process. I'd want to keep it top secret to keep everyone vaxing their children, kwim? Not that I think 98% of people are swayed from their original position, but I'm not living in fear that fewer people may vax. Yes, certain diseases scare me, but there are many vax related complications scare me more. I've weighed my options carefully, as I assume most parents have.

Yes, there are concerns that your child may contract a "vax preventable illness" if you don't vax. For some people, there are concerns about what vaxes may do to their child that outweigh concerns about the disease itself.

This was a recent ruling (5/26/06) on compensation related to MS and Hep B vax:
http://www.ccandh.com/decisions/werderitsh_5-26-06.pdf
No, it isn't conclusive, but the final ruling is that there is enough cause for concern that Hep B may influence autoimmune disease. Possibly in only certain genetically succeptible people, but we don't yet know who those people are. This will impact a number of petitioners that have noted problems related to the Hep B vax.

Similarly, there's still research being done on vaxes and the development of Autism, Diabetes, motor and speech delays, etc. I won't post links and articles, but they exist. There are still concerns there. Those diagnoses can be hugely life impacting for families, just as a "vax preventable" diagnosis can be for other families. Even if only a fraction of things that could potentially be linked to vaxes (and are still being studied) actually are, there is enough cause for concern there IMO.

IMO it isn't cut and dry on either side, but that's why I think it is important to not bash the other side. Vaxing doesn't mean that your child won't contract a serious illness or die, and non-vaxing doesn't guarantee perfect health either.

That's my last comment on this thread and I'm sure lots of people are grateful to see me shut my mouth ;)

[JElaineB]

Very interesting article, thanks for posting it, Katie.

Jennifer
mom to Jacob 9/27/02

[cmdunn1972]

Elena, let us know if Daniel stays healthy! Please keep us updated.

I'm curious to know what the daycare administrators are doing to manage the outbreak. An infection of about half is a difficult situation. Those poor kids! Chicken pox is no picnic.

[newnana]

As pps have said, I hope everyone feels excellent about their choices raising their kids.

On a lighter note, is anybody here immature like me and digs South Park? I'm rarely awake late enough to watch it anymore, but this thread reminds me of one particular episode.

One of the kids gets chicken pox. All the parents think it would be excellent to get all the kids together to expose them to the disease so they get the milder pediatric version than the wicked adult version.

The kids catch wind of the plan and decide to play a little biological warfare of their own... with an STD.

Gross!!! My mom always says the things I do with DD will haunt me as they have her, and this episode reflects that.

I know, totally frivolous post, but it kept coming back to my head so I thought I'd let it out. There's probably a much funnier way to describe this (like just watching the episode) but apparently my storytelling skills are out at the moment.

Michelle

[m448]

Actually that's my point - they do. Whether my child has a 1 in 100 or 1 in 100,000,000th of a chance to contract the disease my decision not to vaccinate him is NOT based on the likelihood of him catching the disease but that the disease can be treated whereas somethings that come about as a result of vaxing cannot. I'm having trouble getting my point across but I'm not sitting here thinking that I'm satisfied in my choice to not vax because my sons don't stand as much of a chance of contracting the disease. My own thought process is that I would rather they catch it than risk the adverse effects of vaccines.

Marielle


Ian - born 10/03
&
Ryan - born 01/06

[buddyleebaby]

Thanks for clarfying. I guess that's where we differ. Were my child to contract chicken pox it would not be such a big deal. Smallpox is something different. (Although I don't think they even vaccinate for small pox in the US anymore....)

[buddyleebaby]

...Vaxing doesn't mean that your child won't contract a serious illness or die, and non-vaxing doesn't guarantee perfect health either....



I completely agree.



If I were concerned my child would be at risk if more people stopped vaxing, I wouldn't broadcast my own thought process. I'd want to keep it top secret to keep everyone vaxing their children, kwim?


well, thanks a lot!!! ; )

[cmdunn1972]

ITA.

What bothers me is that the thread has denegrated into the ad nauseum re-hashing of a controversial issue when probably all the OP wants is a little sympathy for her scary situation.

Can we please forget that her situation, on a tangent, is related to vaccines and simply share in the OP's concern for her child?

[kijip]

FWIW, I am a 100% pro-vaxing mama but I can see how a title of "I am so glad I vax-ed" would justifiably bring out people on both sides of the issue.

[cmdunn1972]

I do too, but FWIW after re-reading the original post I thought that the intended tone is more asking for empathy than starting a debate.

ETA: All I'm saying is that that if we could remember to address the human concerns brought up by the OP first, then maybe we could avoid re-hashing all the debate in the first place. That would be ideal, anyway.

[kozachka]

Thanks for asking, Colleen. So far DS is healthy as well as every other child in his group. I hope it stays this way. Not sure whether it is because he was vaccinated or because I BFed him for the first 26 months of his life and might have passed on to him my antibodies (had chicken pox when I was 12 years old, no fun).

As far as I know, the daycare administration is not doing anything about the outbreak. Even if they are doing something about it, they are certainly not communicating it to the parents. All I was told the day I started making noises about it that there is quarantine and if I am not happy I should keep him home for the next 3 months. And the way I found out about the outbreak was by overhearing daycare providers complain about this one woman who came over to pick up her DS from our group together with her older DD who has chicken pox. The seriousness of the situation did not hit me until after I got home that night and when the next morning I demanded explanation of what's going on and why this child is allowed to attend, I was made to be the bad mom for letting my DS come to daycare with cough, which I don't think is comparable. This lack of communication and few other minor things is what making me think of switching to another daycare in our area. Unfortunately, we don't have that many options until DS turns 3 years old.

[kozachka]

Wow, I have not checked this board for few days and did not realize what a controversy I started. I did not expect this debate or that many responses since ours is not a typical situation (as in most kids not having had a chicken pox vaccine). Guess I could have phrased the subject line differently would I have thought it would be controversial. My apologies to those people who got offended or felt judged by my OP, that certainly was not my intention.

All I was looking for is some moral support and reassurance. I was and still am scared that DS will get sick and since I have recently (3 weeks ago) started working in a firm where I am expected to hire a nanny and continue working even if my child gets sick, the last thing I want right now is for DS to go down with chicken pox. I am sure I'll burned for accepting a job like this but I have my reasons. I am also pretty sure I'll get more slack in couple of months but right now it is what it is. I really like my new job and the change of dynamics between DH and I, but it is no fun to be at work when your child is sick at home with nanny. DS managed to catch a virus few days before my start date and was home with a nanny the first three days of my first job week. This is probably more information than anybody wanted to know, just making sure you understand where I am coming from.

[elliput]

:-)

[cmdunn1972]

Elena, I hope that Daniel stays well! Thanks for the update. <crosses fingers for you>

Also, I'm sorry you've been catching this attitude from the day care providers! BOO to them!

[denna]

I just wanted to add that the US being a cleaner environment has also helped to erradicate the diseases....

[Rachels]

Also for pertussis, immunity wears off. It's not a lasting vaccine but they stop doing boosters because the risk is in the first year of life. Many of us have almost certainly had pertussis at some point.

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.jpg


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[Rachels]

I dunno, I think the rehashing is interesting. I haven't read the vax threads in a while and learned some new stuff here. The cat claws aren't pretty; it would be easier to deal with this stuff if people remembered that disagreement with a stance on things doesn't mean the poster hates another and wishes her eyeballs to fall out and roll into the gutter.

As for whether we should shut down discussions just because they've been had here before, I'd vote an emphatic no. I've been here four and a half years; I've got about seven thousand posts. Most of you who are posting here now weren't here when I first showed up. We had vax discussions back then, too. Had we tabled the issue four years ago, a lot of newer moms would have missed the chance to read or participate in some pretty interesting discussions. The boards get new members all the time. It's good to keep talking. Anyone who feels it's too much of a here-we-go-again issue doesn't have to jump in, kwim?

-Rachel
Mama to Abigail Rose
5/18/02
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_amethyst_36m.gif
Nursed for three years!

and Ethan James
10/19/05
http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/bf.jpg


"When you know better, you do better."
Maya

[o_mom]

ITA - There is always new information coming out. To think that because it has been discussed once it never should be mentioned again is not fair to newer members. They might not have even been pregnant the last time it was discussed and their situation may not be the same as the last person who asked. The search function on these boards is poor enough that it is very hard to find old discussions, I think telling people to "go search" is very frustrating.

[cmdunn1972]

Thanks for sharing your POV, Rachel.

I'm not saying the issue shouldn't ever be brought up. However, there's a time and a place for everything. I simply feel it's inappropriate to get ugly in a thread where the OP is merely asking for a bit of sympathy. It sometimes makes me feel like all one has to do is start a thread with one or two key words, and the brawl begins again. In that vein, the constant threat of too much controversy might deter some from posting about a legitimate concern altogether, and that's not good.

[denna]

Thank you Rachel! This what Ive been trying to say! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I know as a new poster/mom I have posted some threads that I guess have been beatened to death in the past...I being new like others of course had no idea it was such a dreaded and sore subject!

Thanks so much for your 2 cents...they were appreciated from here!!!

[denna]

ditto, ditto, ditto on the 'go search' being frustrating! I was told this by another poster and was hurt by it. sounds so mean 'go search'!!!

[cmdunn1972]

Sorry if I sounded like an old grump. I guess I'm just tired of the cat fights over this.

[hcsl]

The live polio vaccine is still used in the rest of the world because it is more effective, plain and simple. It is no longer used in the US because of the horrible side effects, including polio. In fact, the last case of polio in the US was a direct result of the OPV.

"Vaccine-Associated Paralytic Poliomyelitis (VAPP)
Cases of VAPP were observed almost immediately after the introduction of live, attenuated poliovirus vaccines (43,44). Before the sequential IPV-OPV schedule was introduced, 132 cases of VAPP were reported during 1980--1995 (Figure) (26; CDC, unpublished data, 2000). Fifty-two cases of paralysis occurred among otherwise healthy vaccine recipients, 41 cases occurred among healthy close contacts of vaccine recipients, and 7 cases occurred among persons classified as community contacts (i.e., persons from whom vaccine-related poliovirus was isolated but who had not been vaccinated recently or been in direct contact with vaccine recipients). An additional 32 cases occurred among persons with immune system abnormalities who received OPV or who had direct contact with an OPV recipient (Table). "



"As a live attenuated virus, OPV replicates in the intestinal tract and induces antibodies in more recipients after a single dose. Thus, OPV can protect more persons who are susceptible in a population, making it the preferred vaccine for rapid intervention during an outbreak (53,67). OPV has been the vaccine of choice for polio outbreak control. European countries that rely solely on IPV for routine poliovirus vaccination (e.g., the Netherlands and Finland) have also used OPV for primary control of outbreaks. During the 1992--93 polio outbreak in the Netherlands, OPV was offered to members of a religious community affected by the outbreak (who were largely unvaccinated before the outbreak) and other persons living in areas affected by the outbreak."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4905a1.htm

And, according to the WHO, OPV is preferable becuase it "apparently" provides lifelong immunity, and the IPV "may not" prevent the fecal excretion of the virus - another major reason it's not used in third world countries. It's easy to forget that we have the luxury of sanitation here in the US.

http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/2005/9241580364_chap6.pdf