If you can count to 20 in another language...

[american_mama]

This is so off-topic, even for me, but I was wondering how many languages in the world follow a different pattern for numbers 11 and 12. For example, in English, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, etc. all follow a similar pattern, as does 21, 22, etc. So why isn't 11 said "one-teen" or 12 said "two-teen"? Is there any language that follows the same pattern for 11 and 12 as for 13-19?

German, Swedish, and Dutch do not follow the pattern for 11 and 12. In what other languages do 11 and 12 follow or not follow the pattern?

[mudder17]

Hmm...well in French, 11-16 have their own numbers and then after 17 there is a pattern.

In Taiwanese (and I believe Mandarin, although I know people here can correct me if I'm wrong), 11 and 12 DO follow the pattern of the rest of the numbers.


Eileen

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[lizajane]

ohmigaw, i totally can't remember how to spell my numbers in french... so lame...

but in french, it doesn't start until 17. it goes 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 10-7, 10-8, 10-9, 20, 20and1, 20and2...

[BillK]

edit: I misread the original post and have nothing useful to add! :)

[american_mama]

Didn't know that about French. That logic would explain the layout of streets in Washington DC ;-).

Just a little French joke from a mild German-phile. ;-0

[lizajane]

posted at the same time as eileen, by the way. so pardon the repeat of info.

[kozachka]

In Russian, 11 and 12 follow the same pattern as 13, 14, 15 etc. There is another vowel in two part of the two-teen than in stand alone two though. In Polish, the pattern is perfect. And in Ukrainian it is perfect as well.

I am guessing that the cause behind this can be related to the fact that in certain cultures/countries pp count in dozens rather than tens.

[buddyleebaby]

In Spanish, 11-15 roughly follow a pattern and 16-19 a new one (10 and 6, 10 amd 7, etc.)

[mudder17]

>I am guessing that the cause behind this can be related to the
>fact that in certain cultures/countries pp count in dozens
>rather than tens.

That's pretty cool--I didn't realize that, but it does make sense!


Eileen

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[ett]

>In Taiwanese (and I believe Mandarin, although I know people
>here can correct me if I'm wrong), 11 and 12 DO follow the
>pattern of the rest of the numbers.

Yup, in Mandarin 11 and 12 follow the same pattern as the rest of the numbers.

[Saartje]

Most of the languages I can count in have already been covered; the one that's left is a little difficult to explain. Japanese has more than one name for each number: the Japanese name, a name taken from Chinese, a name taken for English, etc. Which you use at a given time depends on what it is you're counting. I don't remember all the systems, but the one used if you're just reciting numbers (just saying 1, 2, 3, etc.) is completely regular in the teens (ten-one = eleven, etc.). However, it does have one major difference when you get past 999.

In English, we count: one thousand, ten thousand, one hundred thousand, one million, ten million, one hundred million, one billion, etc.

In Japanese, it instead runs: one thousand, one ten thousand, ten 'ten thousands', one hundred 'ten thousands,' one thousand 'ten thousands,' one 'one hundred millions,' ten 'one hundred millions,' etc.

(In that explanation, remember that 'ten thousands' and 'one hundred thousands' are single words in Japanese — it's a different unit than used in English. I don't want to make it sound like the Japanese is as cumbersome as a literal translation to English makes it sound.)

Someone feel free to correct me if I've misremembered something; I only got to take 3 sememsters of Japanese, and it's been several years.

[cbm]

As in French, in Italian the pattern is the same from 11 to 16. It changes from 17 to 19.
In Spanish is the same pattern from 11 to 15 and changes from 16 to 19.
I hope I understood your question correctly.

Claudia
DS 12/18/04

[californiagirl]

The generalization is that in countries that were part of the Hanseatic trading league, they counted by dozens. It's not perfect (and of course requires you to know details of medieval history...) but that's where the effect comes from.

Most non-European languages are regular. It appears to be the case that kids in learn counting and math faster in countries with regular number systems, but it's a pretty weak effect. Here's an interesting related bit from one of my favorite blogs:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002349.html

[maestramommy]

yes, you're right, and I believe Japanese is the same. People from those countries tell me it's so much easier to count objects quickly in those languages because it has so few syllables.

[american_mama]

Thanks for everyone's input.

>>>The generalization is that in countries that were part of the Hanseatic trading league, they counted by dozens. It's not perfect (and of course requires you to know details of medieval history...) but that's where the effect comes from.

That's fascinating. Obviously, in English we count 11 and 12 differently than the teen's, but do we count in 10's or dozens? It seems like we do both.

Does anyone know how it is in Finnish or Estonian, as they were part of the Hanseatic League (I think) but come from an entirely different language family than other European language?

What about our Hindi speakers on the board, for another non-European perspective?

I don't know any French, but if 75 is said 60 and 15, and certain other numbers follow that sort of pattern, isn't it plausible that this FACILITATES rather than inhibits mathematical reasoning? But perhaps a few exceptional words does not a systematic teaching tool make.

[mamica]

I'm not familiar with Estonian, but if it's a slavic language like its surrounding countries, then I would guess it follows suit with 11 and 12 following the teen pattern, as with Russian and Polish. But, if it's similar to Finnish....

I think Finnish is similar to Swedish, so it could follow with the op's info that 11 and 12 are unique.

[kozachka]

I don't know but I'll try to find out. You have me intrigued. I do know that Finnish and Hungarian are similar and are considered to be difficult languages. Did not know about Estonian being in the same language family.

On a related note, some (weight?) measures are based on counting in 16s in addition to dozens and tens.

ETA: Estonian is not a Slavic language, neither is it part of the Indo-European group of languagesm which includes most European and Slavic languages. You were absolute right when you said it belongs together with Finnish language. Here's an interesting language on the topic, including comparative table for number, which unfortunately goes only up to ten.

http://www.einst.ee/publications/language/language.html

Now I am curious about 'teen' numbers in other ancient languages such as Basque and Georgian.

[stefani]

In Indonesian, the 11 ("sebelas") is not "one-teen" (1 = "satu"), but 100 is "seratus", 1000 is "seribu", etc. 12 however follows the pattern (12 = "dua belas", while 2 = "dua").

[californiagirl]

Ah! I do know about Finnish and Estonian, and they do have funny words for 11 and 12. In fact, they both call what German calls the East Sea the East Sea, even though it is east of one and west of the other. Finnish and Estonian are in fact the reason why the generalization is about the Hanseatic league.

[staramama]

I can pipe in about Czech following a consistent pattern for 11 and 12 and on, although you guys have already discussed related slavic languages like Polish and Russian.
And just for the record, American Sign Language also produces 11 and 12 in the same manner as for 13-19. I also doubt that it was ever used by participants of the Hanseatic(sic) league :)

[knaidel]

In hebrew, 11-19 all follow the same pattern. This is so interesting to think about!

[jeminaal]

The same goes for Tagalog (language in the Philippines), where 11 through 19 also follow the same pattern:

Labing-isa (11), Labing-dalawa (12), Labing-tatlo (13)....Labing-siyam (19).

Jeanette
(formerly known as jeanmick, member since Feb 2003)

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