I do not like being a trouble maker's mother!

[deenass]

This is not a bitch - more of a call for advice from a been there done that mom.

DS is 3 1/2 and extremly bright (for some reasons teachers keep telling me that when we discuss his discipline problems which is why I'm including that info). Her just has an almost complete inability to keep his hands to himself. Some might remember my post a few weeks ago about my friend's daughter going to the ER with a scratched cornea - that friend will no longer let her daughter play with him).

He is not malicious in his "handsiness" just does it in the fun of playing, but the end result can be someone getting knocked over, falling, etc. Today it resulted in him not getting a sticker at the end of class b/c the teacher had to tell him and another boy to keep hands to themselves multiple times (of course, when she said she couldn't give him a sticker b/c of the pushing he replied "that's okay, I got a sticker at the library today!") It's stuff like that which makes me feel like I'm rasing a sociopath (you know brilliant guy - not remorseful - kills 8 people!) We haven't yet found his "currency" (you know, the thing that makes him tick - that we could use as a reward). He just doesn't seem to care when he gets in trouble.

He's been around kids since he was born, has been exposed to groups, one on one play has been in pre-school for a year, classes for 3 years and I feel like I'm at a loss. How can this child who can repeat a 15 page story VERBATIM not remember NOT TO THROW SAND IN SOMEONE'S FACE? We CONSTANTLY talk about it - the last thing I said to him before his class today was "I love you - remember, what do we do with our hands? To which he replied "keep them to ourselves".

I don't get it - what can I do?????????

[JMarie]

Do we have the same child? Because this is exactly what my DS is doing. We had daily pep-talks on the way to school - hands are not for hitting or pushing, feet are not for kicking, listen to the teacher - and every day, it's the same report. Pushing, throwing, hitting, tantrums, not listening. I was mortified. Does your DS's school have a closed-circuit camera system? I was able to watch much of DS's class that way and I discovered that he was simply bored out of his mind. An example - the school gives them 30 minutes to complete a 'worksheet,' but he's done in 30 seconds. The teacher didn't give him anything else to do for the rest of the time, so he ran wild. After a full day of this, he was out of control.

Rewards didn't matter. 'Punishments' (closing his playroom, time-outs, no Thomas video, etc) didn't work. He doesn't behave so drastically at home, so we made the decision to keep him out of school/daycare for the time being. It wasn't fair to him that he was bored and left to his own devices most of the day (which, I'm sorry, when you're three means you're going to act out), and it wasn't fair to the other kids in his class for him to act out at them. I hated feeling like I had the class bully.

I would try to observe him at school, if you can. See how the other kids relate to him, how the teacher relates to him. The teachers/directors were our issue, they didn't take the time to try engaging Aidan in other activities once he finished the 'assignment'. I would also question if it's the number of children in his class - are there too many? Is the teacher able to give him one-on-one time everyday, or when he needs it? Some kids need more than others. Could a more definite reward system work for your DS? Something you put together - like every day he doesn't push, throw, etc, at school, he gets a sticker on a chart. If he has a week of stickers or a certain number, he gets a prize from a treasure chest, or something like that. I hope you find something to work, but in the meantime, just know you're not alone.

Jennifer
Mom to Aidan Christopher
01/28/03

[kdeunc]

Thank you for posting this!! I have spent all day upset because my very bright 3 1/2 year old is driving me crazy. You have completely described him. He is going through a phase (I hope, although I have considered the sociopath option too!!) where he he is hitting and kicking at people. Usually this is directed at me, which of course makes me feel like "Mom of the Year". He also thinks it is funny to make spitting sounds and call people "poopy head". This occurs about 20% of the time and the other 80 he is charming, chatty and generally a great kid. We too have tried punishment, reward and everything in between. I have heard that the threes are bad, I am praying to God that the fours get better, otherwise I may end up completely crazy. I hope some peopple have some suggestions!

[deenass]

With regard to school - I don't think it's the school, he's been having this problem since last year and this year he is in a different class, so different teachers, plus, today it happened at music class (again, different teacher - one who he has known for 2+ years) and DS is really GOOD at entertaining himself (b/c so far he has done REALLY well at a drop off class where 45 mins is free play in a room full of really fun toys). It's also not the class ratio b/c this happened last year with 8 kids, at camp with 8 kids and this year with 18 kids. It also happens at the playground with me about 3 feet from him.

We tried a "good choice chart", each day he didn't make bad choices at school he'd get a star, after 5 stars ice cream, some days he was excited to get a star, the days he didn't get one he really didn't care (and when he asked for ice cream on days when he didn't have 5 stars he was like "ok whatever!")

Yes, I do feel better not being alone in this, I feel like I have no IRL friends to talk about this (ALL my friends seem to ahve these sweet well behaved girls) and do I really want to talk about DS having behavior problems with people who's kids he is playing with???

[JBaxter]

Playgroup at Nathan's house is all I have to say.

Nathan's new favorite thing to do ( thanks to his older brothers) is body bump other children. Its fine if they are also 39in and 35lbs but most in his playgroup arent. Dont bump the little boy ..Dont bump the little boy ..Dont bump the little boy ..Dont bump the little boy

I spend most of my day re-directing him . He isnt mean just big and rough.

[Vajrastorm]

He's not a trouble maker. He's a sensory seeker. :) High energy, high pain tolerance, enjoys rough physical contact, right?

I have one of those. We have video of her at 5 months old, trying to ROLL OVER her 5 month old friend, flailing and smacking him in the head. Oh, the children she has reduced to tears. She made a 6 yr old boy at the park cry when she was 2 1/2. (I'm usually pissed, but that one was hard not laugh at.)

We have a multi-faceted approach. The first, and most important IMO is to make sure he has ways to get his sensory needs met. While I don't consider dd to have SID (Sensory Integration Dysfunction) I have found resources aimed at kids with SID to be really helpful in dealing with dd's need for stimulation.

The second thing we do is have a zero tolerance policy for intentional harm. Dd isn't a beast, but she can go over an edge and lash out. If she does that, we leave wherever we are. Period. [This one wouldn't work at preschool, obviously. Thankfully she doesn't do this kind of thing often - anymore].

The third key aspect is supervision, supervision, supervision. I keep a close eye on dd's play, and remind her to tone it down when it starts getting too rough. If you haven't read "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen, I *highly* recommend it. As often as possible, I redirect the play in a way that is energetic and safe. Running, climbing, whatever. I help the kids take the physical focus off each other. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. Anyway, I stay involved and I help her navigate the world in (more) socially appropriate ways.

I won't lie - I do spend a lot of time and energy on this. The good news is that while she's still as physical as she ever was, she is learning better ways to express it and her behavior with other kids is much more gentle than it used to be. I can't wait to get her in sports, though! Soccer is a perfect sport -lots of running and just enough person-to-person crashing. }(

[KarenNYC]

we were in the same boat a few months back and I wanted to cry most of the time as I did not want o people to think I was raising a bully etc... I actually went to a child therapist as I had tried everything. Here aer a few ideas:

1. read 1..2..3.. Magic (if youhave read it already re-read it and start enforcing it).

2. read hands rae not for hitting series as a story book adn discuss things that hands are good for (hugs, art etc..) and what feet are good for (soccer, climbing etc...)

3. Make good on all punsihments (like if you push again we are leaving - and remove him as promised).

4. remember tihs is NOT your fault - I can not tell you how many of my friends kids are going thru this.

feel free to e-mail or PM me and we can chat about other stuf as well.

DOn't assume that your child is an "out-of-sync" child (a great book for people who do have kids with sensory issues). Your child may just be going thru a phase where he does not understnd what is and what is not acceptable. I was told to make sure to have a disucssion aboit good choices and bad choices and that he makes the decision as to which choice to make and if he looses privledges it was because he made the choice etc...

When Ryan went thru this he was just over three - he gave up his nap, just had a baby sister, was recently potty trained AND had a friend that instigated and then cried that Ryan pushed him etc... so he got a bad rap when most of the time he got pushed etc... repeatedly before he responded and never made an issue while his friends did so keep en eye on things, go watch in school if need be and see how these situations happen.

either way - good luck. I know it seems like the end of the world, or at least it did for me, but you guys will get thru this.

[mamicka]

>He's not a trouble maker. He's a sensory seeker. :) High
>energy, high pain tolerance, enjoys rough physical contact,
>right?
>
...
>The second thing we do is have a zero tolerance policy for
>intentional harm. Dd isn't a beast, but she can go over an
>edge and lash out. If she does that, we leave wherever we
>are. Period. [This one wouldn't work at preschool,
>obviously. Thankfully she doesn't do this kind of thing often
>- anymore].
>
>The third key aspect is supervision, supervision, supervision.
> I keep a close eye on dd's play, and remind her to tone it
>down when it starts getting too rough. If you haven't read
>"Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen, I *highly* recommend
>it. As often as possible, I redirect the play in a way that is
>energetic and safe. Running, climbing, whatever. I help the
>kids take the physical focus off each other. Does that make
>sense? I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. Anyway, I
>stay involved and I help her navigate the world in (more)
>socially appropriate ways.
>
>I won't lie - I do spend a lot of time and energy on this.
>The good news is that while she's still as physical as she
>ever was, she is learning better ways to express it and her
>behavior with other kids is much more gentle than it used to
>be. I can't wait to get her in sports, though! Soccer is a
>perfect sport -lots of running and just enough
>person-to-person crashing.

Andrie, I read the OP & was going to write almost the exact thing that you did - Thanks for saving me the typing :).

To the OP, I second everything that Andrie has said here. Your DS isn't a troublemaker, he just has different needs. Lawrence isn't as extreme as maybe your DS is, but I can relate & sympathize just the same. It really tears me up because protecting Calvin day-in & day-out is exhausting. But for us, it's makes a *huge* difference - I spend so much more time supervising him it's just sad - I seriously get really tired of it. But as soon as those hands start flying, I have to step-in with the reminders - & he responds well, seeming to remember, "Oh yeah - I have to be gentle with my hands". It might happen again in 5 minutes, but that's life right now.

Good luck!
Allison

[SnuggleBuggles]

We actually went to a psychiatrist about this last year for our 3.5yo. Diagnosis? Being 3.5. She said maybe in a few years it would play out to be something like ADD because the main problem they said was "impulse control." She said that he was very bright and personable.

He is still having a little trouble about once every 2 weeks at school but it has gotten much better. It really is a case that he knows better but he just snaps for a second. The teachers have been very nice in working with us and saying that age and maturity are the fixes. I can already see so much growth and development in the past year.

We were actually kicked out of 2 summer programs because he was either hurting another kid (pinch, bite, hit) or he was getting into trouble (like walking away when they were outside playing). We were lucky to find such a great program that doesn't make me feel bad about my son (I still do when this stuff happens!).

It really and truly gets better. I don't know if your ds is potty trained but we were on the late side with that. AS soon as he pt'ed (in a day, mind you, totally stubborn and was going to do it his way :) ), he became so much gentler! It's like he was just so stressed and frustrated about the pressure to pt that it was as though a weight was lifted. It was an overnight change. So, while he still has trouble sometimes it is so much better.

This is a challenge of a 3.5 yo. It maye help to go and talk to someone- it really helped us. Make sure you aren't missing anything. (Try getting his hearing tested, btw, because they now know that slight hearing trouble can cause behavior problems. Since it so easy to get done it would be a good first step to ruling anything exceptional out.)

Beth

[Aunt to sweet baby boy]

Avi is younger than most of the others who are posted but he is having alot of trouble controling his body lately. I was with him at the playgroup at our temple and he walked over to a boy. I was sitting and watching him and as i walked over he went from hitting him on the head to "making nice". It is frustrating but also hard to discipline him because he always does something cute after he misbehaves.

These posts make me nervous, i have a feeling it will get worse before it gets better LOL!

Ilana, aka Nana to my sweet nephew Avi

http://lilypie.com/pic/060826/Fsm6.jpg[/img]http://b2.lilypie.com/alzym7/.png[/img][/url]

[cmdunn1972]

Once of the Moms in our playgroup is going through a similar situation with her 3 y.o. DS. She seems to managing him well and suggested the book, "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. (ISBN 0060923288) Apparently, there's a checklist that you can go through to determine if your child is "average", "Spunky", or "Spirited". Of course, there are also plenty of discipline tips. It's available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060923288/sr=1-1/qid=1159561422/ref=sr_1_1/104-8919545-9942300?ie=UTF8&s=books

HTH!

[brittone2]

Adrie and Allison-Thanks for bringing up the possibility of it being a sensory-related issue :) I feel like I bring it up as a possibility around here a lot, but it is really quite common. People probably assume I'm nuts, but I really think a lot of kids that have these kinds of issues have some sort of unusual sensory processing. Of course, it certainly can be typical 2 or 3 year old behavior, and teasing out one from the other isn't easy.

A lot of kids that are labeled early on or perceived to have behavior problems of a sort IMO often are just sensory seekers of some sort.

These kids often don't have a good awareness of personal space for themselves or others. THey may get too close to other kids, causing the other child to lash out at them. They may feel like others are waaaay too close to them, even though it is probably an amount of space other kids can deal with. They may have trouble regulating the amount of pressure between a pat on the back to a friend and slapping them hard across the back.

I know I've seen OTs use things like individual carpet squares in classrooms to teach space/boundaries in a more concrete way. That won't work for lots of things, but for circle time types of activities, it can be something to try. As Andrie said...lots of appropriate sensory stimulation/good outlets for sensory play can be helpful. Pinching play doh, kicking balls, jumping on a trampoline, being rolled up in a big blanket or buried under couch cushions and playfully "squeezed" by a parent.

ETA: play tunnels are also good for body/space awareness.

[Vajrastorm]

> I feel like I bring it up
>as a possibility around here a lot, but it is really quite
>common. People probably assume I'm nuts, but I really think a
>lot of kids that have these kinds of issues have some sort of
>unusual sensory processing. Of course, it certainly can be
>typical 2 or 3 year old behavior, and teasing out one from the
>other isn't easy.

I'm far from an expert, but I don't tend to think of it as difference in sensory processing per se. Every human being falls somewhere on the "Sensory Avoidance ........ Sensory Seeking" spectrum. I may be biased, since I am a "spirited adult" and a sensory seeking person myself. I can't seem to find anything wrong with that, although it does present certain challenges. [I purchased "Raising Your Spirited Child" because of dd, and I was blown away by how much the book talked about ME. :D]

My sensory seeking led me to participate in a variety of sports and take pride in what my body could do. It has led me to have wonderful adventures and makes me a great playmate for toddlers. ;) I'm sure sensory seeking played no small part in the fact that my unmedicated birth was the single best experience I've ever had. The saddest thing about having an only child for me is that I'll never give birth again!

I never thought of myself as sensory seeking until I began looking for ways to understand and deal with dd's physicality. I simply considered myself a tomboy and an athlete. I never understood why some of the boys said I played too roughly. :7

Nonetheless, I maintain that any bad behavior in dd is dh's fault. I make sure to remind him of this, too.

[brittone2]

oh sure, I totally agree. It is a big continuum. My DH has some interesting sensory stuff...he's very sensitive to auditory things and certain tactile things. But he's a sensory seeker in other domains...as a toddler he constantly hurt himself because he needed to jump his big wheel on ramps and things of that nature ;) As he got older he is/was very into rock climbing and other very sensory intesive activities.

I am usually trying to post while nursing my son down for nap or bedtime, so I don't always articulate what I want to say very well ;)

I do agree that it is a big continuum though. I do think it can be more of a sensory processing disorder though when it starts being problematic in how someone functions day to day.