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sethsmom
10-05-2006, 08:55 PM
Dr. Phil says, "Pick your battles." DS just turned one, and DH and I have been discussing discipline. In the midst of a spank/not-to-spank analysis, we decided we needed to think about what issues we may be facing.

What are some issues that can be anticipated (I know kids will always throw you for a loop) that we can establish a plan for? Here's what I've seen so far:
bad words
harm to others
harm to self
purposeful damage to property/items
whining, tantrums
disrespect, lying, ignoring parents
not cleaning up
good manners
mealtime refusals
avoiding naps/bed

Thanks for your ideas!

holliam
10-05-2006, 09:01 PM
I think all kids are different, and IMO it's not really worth it to have a battle plan for something your child might never do. For example, my child has never refused a meal, nap, or bedtime. It's just not her personality. So, I have never had to develop a plan to address those issue. Now, chucking things across the room...never would have guessed that she'd do that behavior.

Honestly, I'd just try to have a "wait and see" plan. See what type of toddler/child he develops into and then figure it out. We're usually quick enough to stay at least a few minutes ahead of her. ;)

Holli

dules
10-05-2006, 09:13 PM
I agree with Holli. You just never know what your child might do, or might never do. DH and I have some basic tenets that we agreed upon - we want her to learn to be kind, honest, compassionate. We only sound alarms at situations involving harm or potential harm to her or someone else. You get the idea. Based on this, we can set general agreements on how to deal with things as they arise.

Good luck!

Mary

sethsmom
10-05-2006, 09:16 PM
Basically, our problem is that DH wants to spank, I want to look into alternatives. He says, "Of course, we shouldn't use spanking for everything, just the big stuff." My question is what is the big stuff? In the grand scheme of things, what stuff should be labeled as spanking-worthy, which as time-out-worthy, and which as only waranting a "don't do that again?" What kind of things might we need to deal with? As I look at the list I've come up with so far, I can easily see that not eating your green beans is not even in the same league as causing harm to oneself or others. It just helps to put things into perspective.

cmdunn1972
10-05-2006, 09:30 PM
I tend to agree with PPs that it depends on the child. IMO, it also depends on the child's age. Prior to afound age 2, lessons just don't "stick" very well. Also, I found that DS is an active toddler, and I would sound like "Negative Ninny" if I focused on more than just the very basics. That's not to say DS is an ill-behaved toddler. He's just a toddler, and much of his behavior is just a phase. (For instance, he doesn't eat much now because he's getting his molars, so I don't fuss about mealtimes.)

For that reason, most of my focus is on safety issues. It's okay for him to climb onto a chair to sit on it, but I correct him when he stands because he could fall off.

I've figured out that tantrums are an attention-getting technique, and a very convincing one if you let it. It's tough, but I will try to ignore the tantrum without ignoring my child. When he pitches a fit because he doesn't want to hold my hand in a parking lot, I will pick him up and nonchalantly carry him back to the car. Funny, but his tantrum quiets down pretty quickly when I ignore it in that fashion. That said, it seems that the "no tantrums" lesson is still in progress.

oliviasmomma
10-05-2006, 09:54 PM
DD is 17months (I need a lilypie so I can stop saying that every time, huh?) so it isn't like I have a wealth of knowledge. Still, the spanking discussion in the bitching post got my juices flowing as far as dicipline opinions are concerned. We pretty much wing it over here, and focus on health/safety issues for the most part. An example is that we don't want DD to stand ont he sofas as we have mission-style with oak arms that are pretty un-kid-friendly. We don't resort to spanking, though, just repitition, reminding and praising her like crazy when she is sitting down. (Olivia is such a good sitter, she sits just like daddy on the sofa, etc.) We also remind her that she is a good sitter when she stands up and usually that encourages her to sit. If nothing else, we remove her from the sofa and distract her.

At this age DH and I pretty much think that her behavior is developmentally appropriate and our job is to make sure she doesn't hurt herself. Tantrums, avoiding naps, and mealtime refusals seem to us like power, fatigue and/or hunger issues rather than dicipline issues. As she gets older I'm sure there will be many more things--but again, so much of it is developmental and just what the age is about that we're not comfortable with dicipline per se.

So far we've agreed not to spank at all, use methods like standing in the corner, time outs and the like (as last resorts), but mostly to follow through with our rules every time, correct and remind every time. We also work on alternate ways for her to explore the things she wants to--she LOVES the lazy susan cabinet that stores spices, and I find bottles of spices all over the house. We have almost gotten her to the point where she is allowed to spin the cabinet, but not touch--but she can touch the plastic container cupboard. Every time she tries to take a spice jar out, we move her to "her" cupboard, open it and encourage her to play. Tedious--you betcha--but yelling has more to do with my frustration than any long-term effect it has on her. I've tried it and realized the entire time it is meaningless to her. Hey, I understand why she wants to spin the lazy susan--it's pretty cool and I like it too.

I'll be interested to read other responses, because many of us grew up in a spanking world. We are, in many ways, forging new territory by looking for options besides spanking.

StantonHyde
10-05-2006, 10:05 PM
Deleted--lack of sleep, a glass of wine, and I sound like a moron :-)

tarahsolazy
10-05-2006, 11:27 PM
Quite a few of the things on your list are developmentally appropriate at certain ages, like tantrums, whining, meal refusal, sleep refusal, etc. And, the ability to understand harm to property or even people isn't fully developed in many toddlers. You can set yourself up for constant stress and failure if you expect behavior from your child that he is developmentally unable to produce consistently.

I look at my job to teach my son how to function in society. He's only 2.5, so I have no idea how I will respond when he says, "I hate you!" which I am sure is just on the horizon. However, for the things I have encountered:

Meal refusal: maybe he's not hungry, or doesn't want to eat what's being served. That's fine, he can either eat what is served (I always include a food he's likely to eat), or just drink his milk and call that a meal. I sure hate it when people try to force me to eat when I don't want to, I figure he's the same. When he's older and understands the idea of trying one or two bites, we'll have him do that. He is not sophisticated enough to get that idea consistently now.

Whining, tantrums: We tell him we understand how he feels: you are really mad that you can't have a cookie, aren't you? And then we are nonchalant about the whole thing. Whining, we tell him his voice hurts our ears and its hard to understand. He is starting to get this, sometimes.

Cleaning up: evolving, and he's just understanding this well now. Like, we can't play with the balls until we pick up the blocks, repeated by a parent a zillion times as he helps pick up the blocks. A few months ago he was totally clueless on picking up, now he helps, but needs constant reminding. Hopefully he'll get more efficient with more modeling.

My basic philosophy is guided by instinct, but I will say that I never intend to try to shape my son's behavior by means that hurt him physically or humiliate or shame him on purpose. Being told off by a boss or teacher in a mean way, being struck, and being shamed has never made me feel motivated to be a better person, so I don't think it will make my DS want to be one, either.

Saartje
10-06-2006, 12:55 AM
I agree 100% with Holli and Tarah. :)

Since you say that this has come up because you and your husband are disagreeing on the issue of spanking, I'll note that my parents also used spanking for something "really bad." In my family, that usually amounted to getting a swat on the legs as they grabbed you and carried you back off the busy road they had been yelling for you not to run into. (This would be followed by a stern talking to about it not being safe, needing to listen to your parents so they could keep you safe, etc.)

I'm not an advocate of spanking by any means (and I don't spank my son, and won't allow others to do so), but if you and your husband want to specify what would be a big enough issue to warrant a swat, I think the combination of doing something very dangerous and not listening when you're being told to stop would be the place to do it.

But really, I think that kind of thing is rare enough (and certainly far enough in the future) that you'd be better off discussing a non-spanking discipline strategy and applying that gently and consistently than discussing such a contingency. Keep in mind both your child's personality and his developmental stage, and make adjustments to that plan as needed. If you're planning not to spank, it's not really a hardship, and once you've learned how to apply gentler discipline on the small things, it will be easier to use that same gentle discipline on other issues down the line.

Hope I'm making sense, and that I'm saying what I'm trying to say. If anything sounds off, you have my apologies in advance; it's very late here.

Moneypenny
10-06-2006, 09:13 AM
I actually think planning ahead is a good idea, but, in this instance, you really can't effectively plan for every thing that may come up. The types of issues you'll face, and the way your kiddo will respond to them, depend a lot on his personality and may even change as he grows and matures. A general overall plan is probably most effective in this instance.

Since you brought up spanking, I really can't think of anything a kid would do that is spank-worthy. I have found that redirection is very effective, especially at your son's age. As he gets older and is better able to understand that whatever behavior he's engaging in is unacceptable, a time-out or take-a-break type method could be pretty effective. Once my brother and I got to be about 4 or 5, my mom would tell us we needed to go to our rooms until we were ready to come out. We could read or play or whatever in our rooms, but we knew that what we had done was not okay, we got out of each other's hair for a while, we calmed down and refocused and came out ready to actually communicate about what was going on.

A lot of the things you list are things you simply need to model - don't say bad words yourself, clean up after yourself, don't disrespect, lie to, or ignore your child...that will go a long way to helping him understand what you and DH feel are acceptable behaviors in your home. Some things, like whining, just ask him not to do and then ignore it. If he doesn't want to eat at mealtime, fine, then he doesn't need to eat. One thing I have found is that when you engage in a power struggle, no one wins. NO ONE WINS. All parties involved end up upset. It's been much more effective for my family to look at things from the perspective of we all need to work together to create a happy home. Mom and dad absolutely have the last word on safety issues, but working on respecting others and being kind and polite, etc is a learning process for everyone and those types of situations are best handled as teaching moments rather than punishable moments.


Susan
mama to my cutie pie, Avery
http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_sapphire_24m.gif[/img][/url]

ellies mom
10-06-2006, 11:00 AM
I would spend some time over at www.gentlechristianmothers.com They have a lot of great advice on age appropriate behaviors and different tools you can use. My husband was like yours. He wanted to "reserve the right" to spank. So, I made sure to cram our "toolbox" full of other tools so he didn't feel the need to pull out "spanking". Now, he pretty much agrees that spanking just simply isn't necessary.

As for our battles, Ellie is turning 3 in a couple of weeks. It is like having a new child so we are dealing with a lot more tantrums.

brittone2
10-06-2006, 02:53 PM
iTA w/ Tarah. I think having a good understanding of age appropriate behavior is an excellent place to start.

IMO tantrums and certain other behaviors are an immature expression of emotion, but we're dealing w/ little immature beings that don't have a better means of expressing their displeasure, upset, anger, etc. Punishing a tantrum IMO does more harm than good by far.

The Ames and Ilig series "Your one year old" "Your Two Year Old" etc. is a good place to start reading about age appropriate behaviors.

I really like the website www.gentlechristianmothers.com. There is a gentle discipline board there that is a wealth of information IMO. I don't identify myself as particularly "Christian" but I really like the non punitive, but non-permissive approaches and ideas shared there.

o_mom
10-06-2006, 03:32 PM
For a 1 yo, here is how I would handle these issues:

> bad words

ignore

> harm to others

Remove/redirect while saying "No hitting/biting/whatever, hitting/biting/whatever hurts"

> harm to self

I'm not sure what a 1 yo would be doing as far as this goes. Head banging, maybe? Ignore or redirect ("You may bang your head on this pillow) while trying to figure out the triggers.

> purposeful damage to property/items

a 1 yo does not have the capability to form this intent, IMO. Keep things out of reach if you want them intact. :-)

> whining, tantrums

"Please ask in a nice voice" or "I can't understand you when you use that voice" for whining, but this really doesn't start until later. Tantrums - let it play itself out and just be there for support. Again, looking for triggers.

> disrespect, lying, ignoring parents

Disrespect is in the eyes of the beholder. I cant imagine a 1yo being disrespectful. Lying also comes much later - peaks around age 5 or so. Ignoring is usually because of lack of impulse control or intense concentration. Coming down to their level, looking them in the eye and saying what you need to say is usually the best tactic. Redirection/Removal for continuing to do something you asked them to stop.

> not cleaning up

Reduce the number of things to a manageble level. Have a clear place for everything and expect to be very hands on on the pick up for quite some time.

> good manners

Model the behavior, explain why and maybe some gentle reminders. IMO, the forced "Thank You"/"Sorry" is meaningless. I want my kids to say those things because they are thankful or sorry, not because they are afraid not to.

> mealtime refusals

Mainly offer at least one food at each meal that you know he will like and don't sweat it. The more you make it a battle, the more likely he will refuse it. I think it is fine to say that you will put the plate away for later and then bring it out again if he says he is hungry. Or, have a "staple meal" that is easy and takes no effort on your part. Ours is cheese sandwich - slice of cheese on whole wheat bread. Takes exactly 3 seconds to make and at least has some protein.

> avoiding naps/bed

You can't make them sleep, short of sedatives. Provide the time and place. Have a rule about staying in the room or bed, but that really doesn't come into play until they are out of a crib. Delay that as long as possible so that they are capable of understanding the rules when that time comes.