What do you think of schools teaching kids to fight armed gunmen?

[bostonsmama]

I saw that report elsewhere, but it bothered me, too. I'm just not sure that in a real situation they'd a) actually remember/be able to do it, b) not piss off a (wo)man with a gun and get more kids hurt, and c)be able to contain the person until help arrived. When I taught at a middle school, we frequently did drills where we locked the door and huddled all the students into a corner out of view of the door window to make it look like no one was there. It still doesn't help if someone just walked up to OUR classroom, but then again, what can you really do if faced with any weapon (a knife, a chainsaw, a box cutter...I mean, that's how the terrorist highjacked our airplanes) but cooperate and hope that either the police intervene quickly enough or that someone who is brave enough to do something about it succeeds.

The ONLY good thing I think of when I heard this is that perhaps it would make it less likely that an attacker or revenge-seeker would pick this school because to the public eye these kids seem to be on their toes, empowered, and confident enough to not be submissive captives. I also like that the students and faculty feel better equipped to handle crises....there's a lot more education that went on than just getting kids to throw text books at intruders.

Anyways...it seems weird to me, but if it ever worked in a realworld setting, I'd be a quick supporter.

Larissa

[cmdunn1972]

ITA with you, Larissa. Fighting back seems to aggressive, and it could worsen the situation. IMO, they should be focusing more on preventing/escaping the situation. These are kids, not soldiers.

[MartiesMom2B]

I saw a news program where they showed kids how to escape, and that seemed more realistic. For example, they said that most kids will run by an exit in panic - when they should be running out of the building and not into a class room! Another technique that I remembered is that if a gunman were to come near you to set off the fire extinguisher.

-Sonia
Mommy to Martie
& Li'l Girl Bunny to come Feb. 2007
http://bd.lilypie.com/Kchhm4/.png (http://lilypie.com)

[maestramommy]

Haven't read the other replies yet, but I have real reservations about teaching kids to fight off an armed gunman. They are still children, not law enforcment professionals. I think it's different from teaching them how to fight off someone that tries to snatch them off the street, but if someone came to the school and took it hostage? Wouldn't it be safer to teach them how to stay under the gunman's radar long enough for pros to get the situation under control?

[KBecks]

I'm imagining an armed intruder entering a classroom and having 25 kids jump out of their seats and start hurling textbooks at him/her.

It's an interesting idea. I think it would surprise the crap out of an intruder, and perhaps allow for self-defense.

I'm intrigued but not 100% sold on the idea. I'd wonder what a simulation would be like -- send in a guy with padding and a paintball gun and let the kids have at him and see what happens :)

ETA - I think it could be effective with junior high and older. I think it is probably not appropriate for elementary school age kids.

[bubbaray]

http://us.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/10/13/defending.the.classroom.ap/index.html

Not sure how I feel about it. We have started reading stranger danger books to DD (Berenstein bears is the best one at her age, IMO). I plan on teaching her to fight back if someone tries to snatch her (we're also considering martial arts training when she is older, not just for fighting back, but for self-esteem). I just never really thought about needing to teach her to fight an armed suspect in school. Sigh.

Thoughts??


Melissa

DD#1: 04/2004

http://bd.lilypie.com/SasRm7.png

[cmdunn1972]

That does seem much more reasonable. It's much more along the lines of "self defense" than of out-and-out aggression.

[cmdunn1972]

I think *I* would be in a panic if someone entered the room where I was and waved a gun. I'm an adult, so how can I expect that kids would not panic when I think I would?

[Sillygirl]

I think there are about seven thousand topics that better deserve classroom time. Like art, science or PE. I know these school shootings get tons of press, but they remain very very rare.

[KBecks]

You'd be panicking if someone tried to abduct you too, but would you fight back or let them take you?

The idea is giving the kids a response that they can work with, in terms of preparedness. The more prepared you are, the less panic.

If your clothing catches on fire, you've been taught to stop drop and roll. It's still a frightening situation, but at least you have a pre-programmed response that is effective.

Whether trying to fend off a gunman is effective or not is the question. I think they should lab test it with paintball and a lot of padding for everyone. I think the test highschoolers would have a blast, no pun intended. Give a scenario of the average number of people shot/killed in school shootings, and see if the test runs produce superior results.

[cmdunn1972]

I think I'd probably just hope I can come to my senses enough to figure out how to get away. Isn't that what they teach you in self-defense, to only do enough "damage" to get away?

I question a child's ability to navigate those kinds of situations with a good head on their shoulders since I'd question my own ability to do the same.

I haven't even begun to touch on liability issues yet.

[kijip]

>I think there are about seven thousand topics that better
>deserve classroom time. Like art, science or PE. I know
>these school shootings get tons of press, but they remain very
>very rare.

This is a very true point that you make. Frankly I think it amounts to needlessly scaring kids about violence.

I was talking to an 11 year old girl on Monday in Seattle. She said that it was scary that more kids died at school than anywhere else and that she was afraid to go to school. I heard this attitude from kids years ago as well. There has not been a school shooting death in Seattle or even in this county, going back over over decades. Her fear, based on the sensationalized news reports, struck me as proof that we are doing our children a grave disservice. She is fearful and depressed about school and I am sure there are many others like her. Not a very good framework for learning. Kids do not have the same reasoning skills that adults do. When we overexpose them to this crap they can believe that in reality, a shooter WILL literally be coming to their school and thet it is not a matter of if, it is a matter of when. That is shockingly sad IMO.

Send them to art class or biology or band or recess rather than waste time of this sort of stuff.

[kijip]

>You'd be panicking if someone tried to abduct you too, but
>would you fight back or let them take you?

Most self defensive training goes right out the window when people are faced with weapons and immediate danger.

[ellies mom]

Very well said, Katie. Thank you.

[KBecks]

Stats, please? I know you have 'em :P

[kijip]

Actually I don't. :P It is just what I always learned in my self-defense classes. I am sure I could go looking for the sources again, but alas I have other things to do in Sundays.

I am not stating that people should not fight back or that fighting back is pointless, just stating that most people are affected by a present danger much differently than they are in theoretical self defense situations. People that do have sufficent enough training or just instinct to fight back are in fact safer. But violent criminals function because they *know* that most people when attacked cower rather than stand and fight. Many people that have had self defense training will fail to use it when the time comes. Asking kids to learn to fight back can burden them with big worries that interfere with their normal daily learning and fuctioning. As an adult woman, I have a pretty good chance of standing my ground with a single attacker, male or female. As a 10 year old child, not so much. Fight or flight kicks in a real situation, on a very deep level. Much deeper than paintball test.

Besides I want my high schooler learning calculus and drama, not running paintball practices, LOL.

If outside gunmen were a really large danger in schools, I suppose that teaching kids to throw things and yell or reach a phone is a good idea. However, the actual risk of this is pretty darn small and scaring very young kids out of their minds (any more than some already are- see my post below) by eating class time up for it seems like we are giving the violence more control than it needs to have.