Defiance....in an 18 month old?

[Lovingliv]

Hi Mamas,

Liv is at daycare for 10 hours a week. Lately, her DCP (a center environment) has told me that she is defiant. She gave examples

1. Not listening when told to do something. She would not stop playing and clean up, to take a nap.

2. She took toys away from some of the other kids and would not give them back, until the DCP physically led her over to the other child.

3. She would turn away from the DCP when spoken to.

4. They said she is very stubborn

Their other complaint is that she is signing and not speaking. Now, she has around 25 words that she uses at home, with sign when prompted to. I don't think that they prompt her enough at school. They say she is "behind", and my question is how many words should a 18 month old have? No one could answer this for me.

We are meeting this week to discuss the issues. They would like the school/home schedule to be similiar and they would like the "limits" to be the same at home and school.
The director has also said that one of the problems may be that I am really strict at home and they are lenient at daycare. They think she is pushing limits when she is there because of this.
I do not think I am overly strict. When I ask Liv to do something, she is going to do it. We may spend 15 minutes cleaning up her toys, or her room. When she does something she is not supposed to, I let her know it. A lot of our day is spent correcting in a positive way, and I let her make choices constantly.
In any case, I am not going to change my parenting style because they are having trouble controlling her. She does need a lot of "one on one" and maybe this Daycare situation is not the right one for her.
Any Mamas have any opinions on the above? If you made it this far, I appreciate it!
P.S. I will not let them "label" her, or "break" her spirit. However, I have no problem investigating a problem that *may* be there.

[sdbc]

Huh. Is that all they said? Your description/list sounds pretty normal for an 18 month old. My DD is in home daycare, and pretty much all the kids acted that way at that age... Ask them if other kids act differently.

My daughter had probably 200 words at that age, but I think she was ahead. I'm not sure what average is.

I'd listen to them with an open mind, but don't take what they say as gospel.

[oliviasmomma]

It all sounds like normal 18month old stuff to me. Our "Livs" are the same age, and DD does all of those things. She has fewer than 25 words (about 10 that she says and many that she understands) and her EI evaluation is normal. It sounds like this might not be the best place for her.

I personally don't think 18 month olds are "defiant" though, and have trouble with the DCP using that word. All of those things are just where they are developmentally, IMO.

PS, Kudos to you for getting your DD to clean up for 15 min, all Olivia does when we clean up is take everything out again!

[kristenk]

The examples they gave sound like normal 18mo behavior to me. Maybe it's not the right place for her. It just seems odd that those things are issues.

[barbarhow]

Rachel-she sounds pretty normal to me. Anna had about 35 words that she says that probably only DH and I can understand because we here them all the time. That number is purely a guess. I have no idea off the top of my head what a normal range is.
Sounds like they may need to be a little more structured and strict with her. Is there a consequence when she won't clean up? What would you do at home if she wouldn't help clean up. Doesn't sound like it has to be a deal breaker to me-however I would think it unreasonable if a DCP wanted me to change my parenting tactics. kwim?
Hope you can figure this out. Keep us posted.
Barbara-mom to Jack 3/27/03, a Red Sox fan
and Anna 5/12/05, my little Yankee fan!

[elliput]

Gee, that is almost exactly like how DD was at 18 months and her DCP never said anything about it being a problem. DD is there 45 hours a week. Like a PP mentioned, it sounds like age typical behavior to me.

My DD at 21 months still has maybe 30-35 spoken words, but can sign close to 70. Her teachers don't see this as an issue, even though they know very little sign and are actually learning from DD.

It may be just an issue of your DD needing a bit more one on one as you mentioned. See what the DCP has to say, it may come down to a personality issue between your DD and the actual teacher(s), and possibly your DD could benefit from a change of classroom if the center has more than one per age group. Or (as my DH just put it) your DCP could be a bunch @assholes who don't want to work at anything.

[gordo]

I agree with the previous poster who said that they don't like the word defiant. That is definitely not a word I would choose for an 18 month old. Her behaviors sound developmentally normal to me. I would hear th e day care out, but it sounds like maybe it just isn't a good fit.

As for the words, my 17 month old has maybe 10 words - probably less, but has over 30 signs. My ped says there is nothing wrong as her comprehension is amazing and she is obviously able to communicate to get her needs met.

[Lovingliv]

Sue, Rory had 200 words at that age? She must be really ahead!
Thanks for the response and I will keep an open mind!

[Lovingliv]

Hey OLM (other Liv's Mom),
that is exactly my thought....DEFIANT is a strong world with a negative vibe....and I do feel that these are the things that normal 18 month olds do, but worth listening to their thoughts! Thanks for the post,,sometimes I just need to hear where you other moms stand! Thanks again!

[Lovingliv]

Thanks Barbara, I appreciate you responding. I have always said to this DCP that I feel that they are too "warm and fuzzy" regarding discipline. Basically, they ask her to stop what she is doing, and "walk away". It is a big corporation though, so that is not going to change.
Our meeting on Thursday is going to discuss ways that we can come up with to "improve" her behaivors.
At home, I have NEVER had a situation where she is not responsive to what I ask her to do. It may take 20 minutes, but I wait it out.
If she says "NO" to cleaning up, I ask her again. She gets three strikes and then I go over to her, take her face between my hands so that she has to look at me and repeat what I have just said. Then, after she has made eye contact, I release her, and she does what I have said. Usually, I do not have to touch her, but if she is overly tired I will. The next activity of the day is a nap! I think this is a lot of the problem at daycare. They sleep on mats, and she will only go down for about 40 minutes daily. At home she gets 2 1/2 to 3 hours!
In the setting that she is in, I am not sure that they can give her the attention that she needs. but switching teachers is not a bad idea either. I guess I have to wait and see....which drives me crazy because she had more patience than I do!
I agree...I find it crazy that they want or inferred that I change my parenting style. I will keep updating and thanks for the response.

[Lovingliv]

Hehehe Erica, I agree with your DH. My sister, who works for the corporate office at the daycare said basically the same thing.
"It is their issue to learn how to best deal with Liv, not yours." And they asked me not to take signing to the "next step". This is upsetting because we have had NO problem at home, and she is using words and signs at home...with no issue at all. The dcp said that she doesn't really need to ask for anything at daycare. she just gets what she needs. Well, at home, she asks me for what she wants. She eats breakfast when she asks. She gets a drink when she asks. We are playing or reading otherwise.
I do happen to think that she is "the norm" but I was very curious about other BBB's kids! Thanks for responding!

[ShanaMama]

Rachel-
I agree with the PP that an 18 mo is not defiant. A DCP can be lazy however.
Not saying it's totally their problem, but it sounds like you have a very warm & nurturing home structure that is consistent & firm at the same time. If she's used to such consistency from you, she might not be responding to their flexibility. I hope that makes sense.
I think at this age she understands limits & what's expected of her. It may be that she's waiting for them to 'take her face in their hands' or the equivalent of what they do when she needs to respond. By them walking away it tells her she doesn't really need to do what they just told her. You are obviously very involved with her. I wonder what's the teacher- student ratio? Maybe she would do better in a smaller or more focused group.
DD is 16 months & has about 25 words, most of which aren't that coherent (except to her parents). She doesn't sign at all, but knows how to get what she needs (ie: leading me to the kitchen & pointing at her drink). She does understand almost everything I say.

[nfowife]

My DD is not in daycare per say, but she does go to Mother's Day Out 2 times a week for a total of 10 hours, so it is similar I would think. Anyhow, all of the things your dcp says are a problem sound like completely normal things to me for an 18 month old, and don't sound like any big deal at all. I am especially irritated that they would see signing as a problem and ask you not to do it. It isn't their say how you parent- especially when you are doing something good. And 25 words is NOT behind. My DD has less than 5 words right now and is slightly delayed (not enough to qualify for EI) and when I mentioned I was having her evaluated to my DD's MDO teachers (there are 2 of them and they have both been there for over 20 years each), they said they though she was just fine and had no concerns about her developement whatsoever. I would have a problem with someone calling an 18 month old "defiant". At that age, they are doing what comes naturally to communicate their needs becuase they are too young to verbalize it.

[katiesmommy]

Everything listed there sounds like typical 18mo behavior to me as well. Katie does all of those things too. And has to get time outs for not listening or doing something she knows she's not suppossed to. If they are just asking her to do these things, and not enforcing that she actually do them, then how can they really expect her to do it? It sounds like it's their problem, not her's IMHO. Katie is 18mo, and I think she probably says somewhere around 20 words. Our doctor told us at her last appointment, that as long as she's saying at least 10 words she's pretty much on track. It sounds to me like they set their expectations a bit to high for an 18mo.

[megs4413]

this is just from out ped's office so take it for what it is: the 18 mo. eval sheet says kids should have between 30 and 50 words. We just had DD's 18 mo. checkup so that's why i have the sheet handy!

DD has a couple hundred words (i really honestly can't count them anymore...) and has started to speak in phrases and small sentences, BUT she only knows like 3 signs. (eat, potty, more) so i think you have to look at communication on a general level...is Liv communicating? I think she clearly is....

As far as the defiant thing goes: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! what are these people? morons? anyone who has spent a significant amount of time with an 18 mo. old knows they can seem "defiant". They're learning to assert their independence! they need to change their approach with Liv...one way doesn't work with EVERY kid...could it be that she's not there enough to follow these "rules"? 10 hours a week doesn't seem like a whole lot to me....Her "defiant" spirit (according to my parent educator from PAT) is part of normal development and should be nurtured--not punished! She's learning to think for herself and decide for herself...there's nothign wrong with that. A robotic child that can only do what it's told and responds to commands like a program, would be a concern to me. I think you've got a smart, wonderful, normal(!) little girl! and a pretty stupid daycare provider!

[stefani]

Well, if you replace "She" with "He" in your list, that describes my DS..., not all the time, but often enough. I have to admit, I think all of those are pretty normal behavior. DS is definitely testing the limits now.

At 18 months, I think DS had about 15 spoken words in each language (he was bilingual, and now trilingual), plus about 20 signs, but he understood quite a bit more. So, IMHO, Liv is not behind at all.

Yes, it is easiest when the limits & schedules are the same everywhere, but that is hardly possible. Different people just act and behave differently. I think children knows about how to "handle" different adults as well. My DS goes to daycare 3 days a week, Grandma 2 days a week, and of course at home 2 days a week, so he has to adjust to 3 different environment & sets of people. Not always easy, but we all manage.

Good luck!

[cmdunn1972]

If Liv is defiant based on that description, then so is my 18 month old as well as every other child of that age. That's just normal 18 month old behavior. They live for the moment. Neither you nor her doctor have a problem with her at home. That tells me that the problem lies with the DCP not doing their job.

As far as signing and speaking go, we signed with DS, but not diligently. He signs about 3 or 4 words and verbalizes the rest. We've written his entire vocabulary down, including signs, and his list is about 25-30 words also. Live seems normal enough to me on that front, given your description.

I would maybe approach the meeting as an opportunity to let them know exactly how you and your DH have chosen to parent at home. I would also let them know that you give signing equal weight to verbal communication.

HTH!

[denna]

ITA w/ all of the prior posters. It sounds like Liv has a wonderful and loving environment at home. This sounds like perfectly normal behavior for an 18mo and calling her deviant is MUCH to strong of a word. It does sound like this DCP may not be the best for your DD (she sounds too smart for them) :). They sound like they are just too lazy be the right type of caregiver, and they dont really sound like they understand developmental stages very well either. Your DD has found a flexible environment and she is pushing her boundaries. I dont see this as anyway your fault, or that you should even consider changing your parenting style.

I hope you find a solution to this soon.

Denna

[o_mom]

My thoughts...

>1. Not listening when told to do something. She would not
>stop playing and clean up, to take a nap.
>

She is 18 months. They are not going to listen to verbal requests every time. They need to get down on her level, one on one and speak to her directly with the request. If they are just announcing to the whole room that it is clean up time or nap time they should expect some will not listen.

>2. She took toys away from some of the other kids and would
>not give them back, until the DCP physically led her over to
>the other child.

She is 18 months. They will not willingly surrender prized possessions and have no concept of sharing. If they expect 18 month olds to share nicely, never take toys away and give them back without any intervention, then they have unrealistic expectations of 18 month olds, IMO.

>
>3. She would turn away from the DCP when spoken to.

This could be too much stimulation or just not wanting to hear it. They need to be the adult and not take it personally.

>
>4. They said she is very stubborn
>

So? This is not a bad thing. :-)


>Their other complaint is that she is signing and not speaking.
> Now, she has around 25 words that she uses at home, with sign
>when prompted to. I don't think that they prompt her enough
>at school. They say she is "behind", and my question is how
>many words should a 18 month old have? No one could answer
>this for me.

Here is one check list:

http://www.thenewparentsguide.com/baby-development-month-16to18.htm

18 months: Say at least 15 or 20 words

There is a big range to this. A friend had her 18 mo evaluated for EI and he had less than 5 words, but was not eligible for therapy. Sounds like she is right on track. DS2 has about 25-30 words and 11 signs and the ped said he was normal. She may prefer the signs at DC because of the environment, because she has found the DCPs understand it better. I know that most people couldn't understand most of DS2's words right now, but he does have them because they are the correct sounds used in the correct context ("aaat" is hot, which he says as he holds his hand up to the stove in a stop motion).

[Lovingliv]

Thank-you to all you Mamas! I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't being overprotective regarding this issue, or defensive when I go in to have our "meeting". My gut instincts are right, like usual!

Than-you all for sharing...please continue to leave experiences. DH sat down and read them, which helped him too!
Thanks again to all you mamas!

[Lovingliv]

thanks for your response, and I was thinking the same thing...too much stimulation. The room is basically organized chaos at all times.

Her attention span is longer than mine,,,,and I could not function well in this room :)

She does love going,,,,

And stubborn is a good thing. When they told me this...I asked them if they had met her mother :)

[Lovingliv]

ShanaMama, good point! I think the kid is screaming to be disciplined. I had not thought of that. Thank-you!

[sdbc]

She was really into those word/picture books. We looked at them *all* the time, plus she looked at them all the time at daycare... Her first word didn't come until close to her first birthday (cat), but after the first one, she learned multiple new words every day, it seemed like. At nearly 2.5, she is quite a chatterbox.

Oh, I should add that not everybody could understand her words, but mom and dad and dcp could. Also, we have a friend the same age who is/was about the same developmentally as Rory, but she signed. Because she signed, she didn't use as many spoken words because she didn't need to. By age 2, they were both roughly equivalent with spoken vocabulary.

Sue, mommy to Aurora (Rory) born 5/13/04

[clc053103]

I think I posted this before for someone else too- my ped at DS's 15 month well baby visit told me he doesn't consider EI unless a child doesn't say 1 word regularly by age 2! that's one single word- I don't think your DD sounds behind at all.

And yes, you have aptly described every 18 month child I know. And I certainly wouldn't call them defiant.

Best of luck to you, I hope you find a caregiver that is a better fit for you and your family.

[casey0729]

Our ped told us that there is no statistical evidence that EI works under the age of 2 and to not evaluate until 2. My DS is almost 18 months and says 2 words Mama and Dada. He understands everything I say to him and does 3 signs. Yet, he totally manages to convey through actions everything that he wants. I can see him trying to form the words but it just not there yet. I am not worried about it at all.

I have to agree with everyone else, I doubt your child is defiant. Your center sounds lazy. If I could get my DS to do something by just announcing it, I'd never get out of bed.

KC

DS 5/11/05

[californiagirl]

Wow.

At that age, I went to pick up DD at daycare, and the carer said to me "She's a strong girl. That one's got a mind of her own, you don't need to worry about her," and proceeded to tell me about a great deal more stubbornness than you've listed here. We then discussed their biggest problem (she was leaving the room!) and realized that she was following the rule I always stated ("You may only go through a door with a grown-up") and just tagging behind every grown-up who left the room... so we changed the rule and within a few days all was good. (I hasten to point out that there were three more doors between her and the outside in that room, so it wasn't like there was a risk of her wandering into the street -- she just ended up in the playground with other classes and got sent back into her own room within seconds.)

This is normal 18-month behavior. Signs count as words (and our daycare encouraged sign in that age-range; DD had a bigger sign vocabulary than they did, but they were thrilled to learn new signs from her or me) so she is by no means behind.

[table4three]

>
>1. Not listening when told to do something. She would not
>stop playing and clean up, to take a nap.
>
>2. She took toys away from some of the other kids and would
>not give them back, until the DCP physically led her over to
>the other child.
>
>3. She would turn away from the DCP when spoken to.
>
>4. They said she is very stubborn
>
>Their other complaint is that she is signing and not speaking.
> Now, she has around 25 words that she uses at home, with sign
>when prompted to. I don't think that they prompt her enough
>at school. They say she is "behind", and my question is how
>many words should a 18 month old have? No one could answer
>this for me.

Um, sounds like my 19 mo old son. He has recently started to assert himself and throw tantrums. He probably has between 20-30 words, which his pediatrician last week was very happy with. Your daughter sounds like a normal 18 mo old. I'm having trouble understanding what exactly your DCP is expecting from a toddler.

http://b2.lilypie.com/mkn7m5.png

[Sillygirl]

1) Your DCP sounds ridiculously judgemental. Who the hell are they to label your child and start critiquing your parenting style at home? I would laugh in their faces as I was pulling her out of the center. But I know it can be tough to switch, so my other option would be "Yeah sure thanks" and ignore them. Puh-leez.

2) Jonathan at 18 months had really no spoken language and 10-15 signs. He hit his explosion around 21 months and now speaks hundreds of words and is making two-word phrases. Once again your DCP sounds misinformed and overly involved.