Update- things are going better. Parenting Advice. I'm Begging. .

[newnana]

Okay, so DH and I had a great discussion yesterday. Before I said anything, he stated, "if this is normal, then I'm okay with it and need to learn how to handle it better." I was stunned. Floored. Rejoicing.

Thank you so much for the book recommendations. We'll be looking into the AAP's book mentioned in one of the posts about developmental milestones and be getting the Happiest Toddler on the Block mentioned by some of you. We definitely need a simple approach. We'll be looking for a class as well. We figure the more tools we have in our toolbox, the better.

DD was a dream last night with her bath, jammies, story, and being put into her crib awake just like before the trip to Grandma and Grandpa's. Of couse she's going to have a period of adjustment. Thanks for reiterating that for me.

When she woke up at 4 AM it was another whole ballgame. She wanted up and I did because usually we sing one song and put her back in bed awake on the rare occassion she wakes up in the middle of the night. That went over like a lead balloon. Screaming crying etc. For the first time ever she took a header out of the crib. I cannot catch. For the first time in my life I caught something and it was my DD headfirst about 6 inches from the floor. I think even DH was impressed :) So, I'm off to "Around the House" to read old posts about crib tents.

Also this morning it was a knockdown/dragout to get her dressed, which is new this week. But we're getting there. And hopefully with all your wonderful advice and support, it will be sooner rather than later.

Ah, and while we were doing the getting dressed thing. Instead of DH's normal MO of barking as loud as he can at her, he tried talking her through it. It didn't work, but it was so nice that he was trying, especially since he was in a rush. I can't thank you all enough!
Michelle



Original Post:
We. Need. Help. There, I’ve said it. But I don’t feel better.

DH and I are at odds with parenting DD. He says she’s a spoiled brat and doesn’t listen. I say she’s 21 months old and we need to be creative/consistent in our approaches to different things. He thinks screaming at her is fine. That I should really give up my objection to spanking her because she “so obviously needs it.� He has a much more harsh version of this statement, but it boils down to, "she's “almost 2 and we should stop making excuses for her behavior.�

He expects that she should do exactly what we tell her when we tell her. If she doesn’t, he goes straight to DEFCON 1.

I’m too lenient. He has unrealistic expectations of her behavior. We need to find a way to meet in the middle.

This has come to a head because DD spent an entire week with her grandparents while I was out of town for work. We are in the middle of retraining her to sleep in her crib, get ready for school, etc. It’s not an easy task.

We don’t disagree in front of DD, but we certainly don’t agree, either. I don’t know what to do. I feel like a horrible mother. And DH is reinforcing that. It is true that she is a biter, especially when angry. DH blames this on me and the fact that I won’t spank her, or somehow make it real to her. I’ve tried everything I know to do.

I think now the only way to get DH and I on the same page is for the 2 of us to take a parenting class so that he can understand normal 21 month old behavior and I can get some other ideas how to handle things. DD is in daycare. Most folks think she's a wonderful child. At least that is what they tell me. Could she be a brat? I don't know, I have a completely biased opinion. I have very few rules in the house that when DH and I originally talked about he agreed with, but now I guess he thinks aren't enough. Nothing dangerous: no standing in the tub, no playing near the oven/dishwasher, no playing in the trash. She has never had a problem with these after we initially taught her not to do them. The 2 we have a harder time with is the other 2 rules: respect yourself and respect others. She bites others and she bites herself. If you catch her before she does it and offer her something else instead, that works. She just needs the sensation of biting when she's frustrated or teething. But yes, she will bite her own arm so hard it leaves welts when she's frustrated (crying herself to sleep).

I love DH. But I hate us like this.

I know there have been other posts similar to this one, but my search skills seem to be sub-par in my emotional and sleep-deprived state. If you have a link to an old thread, I would appreciate that so you don’t have to retype your well thought out previous responses. I’m desperate.

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
Michelle

[denna]

((hugs)) michelle. I have no fulltime experience with a 21 mo just what I know from working in day care and biting is normal behavior for her age. This is a frustrating age for DCs they feel like they want to do everything but there are so many limitations. Biting is her way of communicating.

I think that the parenting class sounds like a really great idea for you guys. This may help your DH realizes that your dd is normal and not a 'brat'.

I hope you guys can work this out.

((hugs))

[SnuggleBuggles]

I have to run but I wanted to ask if your dh had read any parenting books or child psych books? I think anyone who goes to college and plans to have kids should take child psych (it should fulfill some general ed req't). It doesn't even have to be a parenting book (which if he fundamentally disagrees with the tone of the book, like he would probably with Dr. Sears, he wouldn't respect the message) but the AAP's "Caring for your Baby and Young Child." That AAP book lays out normal behavior at every age range.

My parenting decisions all boil down to keeping ds safe and healthy and I will apply rules where necessary to ensure that happens.

Biting at this age is normal, btw. Head over to the askdrsears.com board for tips on handeling it (and an explanation of why they do it).

Beth

[Fairy]

I know how frustrated you must feel right now. DS is about eight months ahead of your DD, and we went thru a very brief biting phase. Not all toddlers are gonna go thru that phase, but alot of them do, and my DS went thru it very briefly. Our approach was very consistent till we were blue in the face to be extremely firm and unsympathetic and severe saying, "no biting! We do NOT bite. Ever. Naughty." Same with hitting. Rather than the warm, sweet, "oh, honey, we don't bite, that's a no-no" cuz it just didn't drive anything home for him. But when we had no hint of anything in our tone but all-business seriousness, he listened. Took a bit, but he did it. Also, we gave him reasons. It hurts people, it's an owie for mommy when you bite her, it hurts my feelings when you bite me. Last thing is we used to play, "I'm gonna eat your nose!" That was a problem, cuz alot of his biting was playing that he wanted to eat people's whatevers. So, once we figured this out (he tried to bite DH's nose), we stopped 100% and to this day have never done this cute play again.

On to spanking. I'm a no spank ever kind of person. Exceptions to every rule, absolutely. When? I dunno. I'll know it when I see it. But until then, we just never raise a hand, period. Ever. That's our approach. For us, time outs really work, as does withholding things he wants, like TV, dessert, or favorite toy (not wubbies). It's a constant struggle to keep it consistent and not waiver, but eventually, DD will ge the message that if she does X, then she's always gonna end up with Y, and that sucks for her, so she'll stop doing it. At 21-months, she's not even 2, so her ability to reason is very limited. But she'll get it if you're very consistent.

Finally, I really agree that you have to be a united front with your kids. You wanna disagree with each other, no problem, but never in front of the kids. They will divide and conquer as young as a little nubbin cuz they're insanely smart. Before he was 2, DS was asking for TV on, and I'd say no, and he'd go to DH for TV on, to which we just giggled. Anyway, if he does something you disagree with, find a way to be ok with it and not contradict DH in front of the kids -- but also he has to do the same with you. sounds like maybe you're doing that already, and it's not always gonna work, sometimes one or the other of you are gonna snap and disagree with an approach in front of the kids, but generally, if you try not to, that's good.

Parenting class certainly couldn't hurt. I really hope things get better for you!

[schums]

A parenting class sounds like a very good idea. Maybe look at the hospitals in your area, the Y if you have one, or even the library. Our libraries have been doing parenting classes for the last year or so (I think they are the Love and Logic series, but are geared for different age kids).

Another idea if you can't find a parenting class right away is to get a couple of really good developmental books from the library and have your DH read the section on 18-24 months. This really helped my DH when we hit a similar problem. It opened his eyes that the behavior was (for the most part) developmentally appropriate (but still supremly annoying). By getting a couple of different books, you can show DH that you aren't just "cherry picking" the book that agrees with you.

Just a suggestion about your rules, tho. The first few rules work with your DD because she understands them. No playing in the tub, in the trash, near the oven. Those are concrete things that make sense to her. Simple, specific, to the point, and easy to remember. Respect yourself and others? Way to theoretical for a 2 year old (or even a 5yo) to understand. Make a few more rules that are concrete. For example, new rules that would encompass respect would be "No biting ever." "No hitting, ever (including Mom and Dad)", etc. Not saying she's going to follow them immediately, but they would at least be rules she will be able to process and eventually remember.

FWIW, this behavior you're describing is very typical for this age. This is the beginning of the "terrible twos", which are not nearly as challenging as the Threes. The sooner you two can get on the same page (and DH can figure out a way to parent better), the easier the next 2 years are going to be.

HTH,
Sarah
Mom to Alex (3/2002) and Catherine (8/2003)

[psophia17]

My DH also has a very short fuse before the yelling begins...it drives me crazy, and lord knows it doesn't accomplish anything.

ITA with the PPs that some more concrete rules might help. N is 3, and respect is something he's heard about that just hasn't sunk in. It's been much more effective to tell him that XYZ behavior causes owwies, which he does get.

As for spanking, we finally are morphing away from being a spanking household. In N's case, he is obstinate as a mule, and would not listen for anything until recently, which became a huge safety concern. It didn't take long to realize we had to do something, and at that point, any and all "not listening" earned a spank. Every example, whether it was to me screaming "stop stop stop" as he ran into traffic (this happened several times), in the kitchen as he tried to climb on the stove to see what was in the pans on the back burners (thank god that's where they were, or he'd have burned both his hands really badly), or as minor as him going downstairs to hang out with MIL without telling me, earned a spank. It started when he was just about 2yo, and it continued until about a month ago. I hated it, but absolutely nothing else got any kind of reaction from him, so we went with it as a last resort.

I think a parenting class would help, as would books if your DH is willing. It sounds like he needs to lower the bar of his expectations.

[ribbit1019]

I agree a parenting class may not hurt. My DD is the same way, well minus the biting. DH keeps threatening to spank her but hasn't as of yet. I found that counting to three helps a lot. I remind her between each count what I want her to do and then if I get to three she gets a timeout. She hates taking time outs so it works well for us. It has taken quite a long time to get to this point though. And her behavior is far less than stellar.

She is terribly mean to her brother. It is more than I can take sometimes. She has bitten another child once and DS once. I try to keep reminding her that one day he is going to be bigger than her.

My uncle has similar issues (0-defcon1 in two seconds flat) and well his daughter is a screamer now too. They have very similar personalities and she does things to annoy him simply because she knows she can (she is 11 by the way). It is really hard to watch and not healthy for either of them. So I would recommend seeing someone sooner rather than later to get help with this.

GL! It is REALLY hard to have a 1 (2-3 etc.) year old and I wish I could say that it is going to get easier but each age offers it's challenges.


Christy
Wife to Richard
My Waterbabies
http://lilypie.com/pic/070228/Yrlv.jpg http://b3.lilypie.com/H-lkm5.png
http://lilypie.com/pic/070228/sSDo.jpg http://bf.lilypie.com/tkq-m5.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/steitzsmith/Other/jump.gif

[gatorruth]

I have a cranky 3 yr old hanging on my arm, so this will be short but sweet. Go get the book 'Happiest Toddler on the Block' by Harvey Karp
http://www.thehappiestbaby.com/toddlers.htm

He is right on the money when dealing with these little prehistoric creatures! I wish you luck-- they will grow out of it. And, it is funny (not funny, but realize you're not alone) that DH's just don't get it when dealing with the kiddos...

:-) Ruth

[megs4413]

oh michelle! HUGS, HUGS, and MORE HUGS!!!!

you know i have SOOOO been there!!! it really came to a head for us several months ago, but DH came around...and no i can't find it while searching either (i swear i'm search impaired).

if he's willing to take a class with you, do it. my DH had (and still has sometimes) completely unrealistic expectations of DD....part of it is that he spends significantly less time with her than I do and so he genuinely doesn't know as much about her. part of it is that he doesn't know what a 22 mo. old is supposed to act like. i got some materials from our parent educator (through parents as teachers) to give to him to read about developmentally appropriate behaviors and how to deal with the undesired ones. something like that might help for your Dh as well...(though they never like being told that they don't know what they're talking about...)

DD isn't a biter, but she went through a hitting phase when she was frustrated..in fact, she still hits when she's upset, but we've gotten her to stop hitting us and *MOSTLY* stop hitting herself and hit things that we have deemed appropriate. you may be able to teach your little one to bite a special biting toy or biting rag (make sure it's something you have lots of and can get more of if lost/ruined) that she should bite when she's upset. i know it sounds far fetched, but it really has worked for us to let her hit SOMETHING, but limit it to things she can't hurt with her hitting and that won't hurt her. she is allowed to hit the carpet, the pillow, or the couch. it took awhile and a lot of reinforcement (through time outs and lots of talking and praise) for her to get it, but she is really doing well with it now. she still hits herself from time to time when she's upset (maybe one out of three times that she gets upset she smacks herself in the face) but then we remind her to hit the carpet or the chair or whatever...and she either does or she calms down before she needs to.

this is becoming a novel. i will PM you. I love you, michelle! hang in there!!! i know it's hard to have this come between you and your DH....

[writermama]

Your 21 month old sound perfectly normal. A parenting class sounds like a good idea.

At about the same time -- and with similar issues with my DH's hair-trigger temper and lack of experience with young children -- I got a copy of Happiest Toddler on the Block.

I read it cover to cover. Decided I liked the approach (and thought it would appeal to DH more than Sears' or Brazelton's books which I also got from the library). I asked DH to read the book. He didn't have time, so I got him the audiobook version (also library) and he listened to it during his commute.

There is also a DVD
Netflix: http://tinyurl.com/2xhagr Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/yslrm5

The book is excellent for explaining what the world is like through the eyes of a very young child. And why the things they do that drive us crazy make sense to them. It also covers the beginnings of discipline -- setting boundaries with understanding.

At an older age -- somewhere mid 2-isd -- we started using 1 2 3 Magic. http://tinyurl.com/32qftt

It was useful for us because the book was a quick read for me, and DH and I were able to get through the 2 dvds in 2 evenings. (All were available at our library, but would have been worth every penny to buy). The beauty of it is that it is a simple system, so it works better with DH's temperament than a more complicated or less defined one. It's not perfect, and I wouldn't use it under 2, but I do like it, especially when we use it consistently.

The book can come across as rather rigid and punitive, I think because it focuses exclusively on the "time outs" and neglects to cover the idea if "time in" (Karp in Happiest Toddler does, however) or preventing acting out to get attention by giving appropriate attention in the first place.

But, if the best carseat not the most expensive but rather the one that fits your car and you can and will use correctly, then the best discipline/behavior modification routine is the one that both you and your DH understand and agree to use consistently (if not perfectly). For us, the simplicity of the Magic approach makes it useable.

When DD is older, I think we may morph into an approach that incorporates natural consequences (something like "Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility" by Foster Cline and Jim Fay) and there are a lot of books out there I haven't read yet (Talk so kids will listen, parenting the strong willed, sensitive child, etc.) I just hope they come in audiobook and DVD so I can get DH on board. ;)

ETA clarification and fix spelling

[gatorsmom]

A few suggestions:
Your daughter is acting out right now because she was at the grandparents' for a week. One week of being told you can do nothing wrong will make your kids naughty. Happens to us every time. Give her time to readjust.

You and DH are arguing because you are sleep deprived. This too shall pass.

As for spanking, let your husband know that it is probably not the BEST answer. How can you tell your child "don't hit or we'll hit your bottom"? Consistant time-outs where you hold the child down until time-out is up really works. (Supernanny advice. Worked wonders with our 2 boys). CONSISTENCY IS KEY.

You hit, you get a time out. You bite, you get a time out. You play in the trash, you feed the VCR, you jump on the sofa- time out. Every time no exceptions.

Take an evening parenting class. I put my type A husband in one and it worked WONDERS. He finally gets it. If there is one in your area where the parents spend time with the kids then time with other parents talking about issues, this is the best.

This is the terrible twos. May seem unlikely now, but she will grow out of it. Tell your husband it will end, just give it time.

HTH!

[niccig]

You could also sign up for a weekly email about your child's development. Both DH and I did this when I was pregnant with baby center, now we get emails about what we can expect at DS's age, how he's developing etc. DH always comments on it to me. This may in a small way help your DH to understand what is normal behaviour.

I would also second a class. I go to one with DS, but they also offer a weekend class that is dad's only. It's a Parent Education Class, some adult schools or community colleges offer them.

[maddyzmommy]

Ask your pediatrician if she might have a sensory integration problem. The biting herself and leaving welts reminds me of a little girl at my daughter's physical therapy appointments. Her mother said they suffered through her daughter biting herself and others and also pushing her arms against the bars of her crib so hard it left marks. They were freaking out until their pediatrician suggested therapy - I think they were seeing physical therapists for her - and the mother said it made a huge difference to her little one. They have special brushes they use to brush her skin each evening and she uses weighted blankets at night to give her system more 'input'... I know it sounds crazy but the biting herself thing sounds like your daughter might be seeking out sensory input and it might be worth checking out. A good friend of mine had her daughter in therapy for sensory integration dysfunction for a year but her problem was more that clothing drove her NUTS and she was always freaking out about getting dressed and even the texture of certain foods threw her into a rage. I think the sensory stuff is kinda a buzzy catch-all phrase lately, though. But if your daughter really does have it you can probably help her. I'm told that the PT really helps.

Andi

[gina]

You know even my teenage daughter acts different after being away at a friends house for a couple nights. She has a lot more attitude. I think she is going throughh the terrible twos again. :)


Gina

DD 15 yr Jade
DD 12 mo - Happy First Birthday Olivia!

[gina]

>But yes, she will bite her own arm so hard it leaves welts when >she's frustrated (crying herself to sleep).

Is this a normal thing or occasional? (I mean the crying to sleep not the biting.) I couldn't tell from the post.


Gina

DD 15 yr Jade
DD 12 mo - Happy First Birthday Olivia!

[newnana]

Thanks so much for the support! Yeah, DD has always been a biter. From when she first started getting teeth at 3 months and was nursing. Ouch! She goes in phases where she won't bite at all for a month or so and then go for about a week of biting.

We're going to try to find a class in the area. Thanks again!
Michelle

[newnana]

Hi Beth,
NO. DH hasn't read any parenting or child psych books. He and I have been over this numerous times. He will research a tv purchase to death, but when it comes to something as important as raising DD, he thinks we shouldn't need advice. We have had major heated discussions about this, but this episode has made him much more open to it.

We will definitely be getting the AAP's book. Thank you SO much for the recommendation.
Michelle

[newnana]

Fairy,
thank you so much for your thoughtful response. DD has always been a biter, but goes in phases. We have definitely tried all the things you mention above. We're lucky that DD's DC is amazing and work with us to be on the same page so that we have the same approach to preventing it and reacting to it. Still, it hasn't worked. They say that some kids are just biters. When we know she's getting ready to, we offer her something else safe to bite, but sometime it just comes out of nowhere.

Yeah, the spanking. We were spanked as kids. And yes, I think there is a possibility that in some situations it is necessary. But I know for me if I'm at the point where I want to spank, I've gone too far. I have too much of my dad in me. I never want to let that happen.


Although DD isn't attached to too many things, I think we're going to try the "Bye-Bye Box" where DD has to put something in if she misbehaves. That way if she has to do it it will stick more and maybe make it more meaningful. Not sure on the details of that yet, but I'm working it out.

I can't thank you enough for taking the time to respond to me!!
Michelle

[newnana]

Hi Sarah,
Thanks so much for the advice on places to check for parenting classes. I wasn't sure where to begin looking, and you've given me a great list. And I will definitely be heading to the library for something that DH and I can read together.

I agree with you on the rules. That is just how I explained them to my husband. To DD it's "No Biting" yourself or anyone else.

Thanks about the behavior commentary. I thought it was normal, but with DH repeating that she's becoming a brat, I was starting to doubt myself. Of course we can be better parents and provide her with better choices and more information will help us do that. Thank you so much for responding to my plea!!
Michelle

[newnana]

Hi Petra,
thanks for the commiseration. In my addled state, I didn't decribe the rules as we present them to DD, just as they are in my mind/how I explained them to DH. To DD it's "No Biting" and she has a special toy to bite. It's just not working right now.

Having been raised in a spanking household myself, I just can't bring myself to do it. My parents mostly spanked in anger and I think that my personality is too much like them to ever allow myself to do that. I'm sure with some kids, and maybe even DD, it's an effective tool, but I'm not the one to be able to use it. The situation you describe with the traffic is EXACTLY what I'm afraid of when I say DD doesn't mind. If we say, "Stop" we want her to mind that every time. Now we just need to make that happen. I'm hoping with a class and other resources that will be more of a possibility.

Thanks for taking the time to give me advice, I really appreciated it!
Michelle

[newnana]

Hi Christy,
that is really interesting about your uncle and his daughter. I don't know why that didn't occur to me. But with DD having so much of DH's personality, that is exactly what I'm afraid of.

Thanks for the advice!
Michelle

[psophia17]

I'm rooting for you!

[newnana]

aw shucks! you just gave me a big warm, fuzzy. Thanks!

[newnana]

Hi Ruth,
I cannot thank you enough for recommending this book. We will absolutely be getting it. We did Happiest Baby on the Block, and I don't know why this didn't occur to me.

Prehistoric creatures! Thanks for the laugh. I needed it! You are right on the money. Thanks!
Michelle

[denna]

Yay Michelle! Im so glad you and your DH were able to talk about this and you are already seeing a difference in your DD. Thats really great! I hope things keep getting better...its a tough age. Its so good that hes trying.

Thanks for the update.

[newnana]

Hi Megs!
I thought it was your post that I was looking for! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Once again, our DH's are brothers from another mother. That is exactly why he is doing this (per our productive discussion yesterday), he want's to be a good parent, and isn't sure what that means except that DD will do exactly as he says and doesn't "misbehave." DH doesn't know what is typical behavior for any age and now admits that. We're going to get some of the books folks here have recommended so that we have them around to reference after we both read them. Once we can find a class, we're going to take at least one!

Yep, DD has her special toy. At school they put a teething toy on a string around her neck when she's in a biting phase. Her best friend is not a biter and was jealous so they gave her one too...pretty cute. At home we have the biter butterfly, but you're right, we haven't been reinforcing it lately. We will definitely have to do that again. Thank you!!!

I'm feeling so much better today since DH and I are on the same page. Thanks for reminding me that we'll need help staying there.

I'll try to respond to your PM in a little bit, but thanks so much. Love you too, have an awesome birth experience and let me know if you need anything! I'm not far from many of the hospitals here ;)
Michelle

[newnana]

Hi Karen,
thank you, thank you, thank you. We will definitely be doing the Happiest Toddler now. A simple approach is exactly what we need. Again, thank you so much!
Michelle

[newnana]

You are absolutely right about the readjustment period. The same thing happened after the last time she spent a week there. It's just hard because she's so good most of the time that it's really hard when she's not! We're learning, right?

That is exactly what I've been telling DH about spanking. He seems dubious, but is now willing to try other approaches knowing that her behavior is 1)readjustment, and 2) age appropriate.

Really, I don't know that I would have held DD down. I always wondered how you do the time out at first. I'll have to check the Supernanny website to see what it says. Thanks!

That sounds like exactly the type of parenting class we'd want. Did yours have a particular name that I could ask around for? Or did you just luck out?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to respond!
Michelle

[newnana]

Thanks, I'll check out baby center. I used to get stuff from them when DD was first born then stopped. I think that would help.

Thanks for the list of places to check! I didn't know where to start,
Michelle

[newnana]

that never occured to me. We will definitely be looking into that. It does not sound crazy. Biting yourself until you leave welts sounds crazy!! :)
Thanks for the advice!!
Michelle

[newnana]

The crying herself to sleep is not at all normal. Sorry for the emotionally incoherent post!!!

We did CIO when DD was 14 months old. She was stubborn. After about 3 days, she never made a peep when it was time for bed, just "Ni-Ni, Lur yu." and then lies down for me to put her blanket on her and I walk out of the room.

There was a period the last time she spent a week at the grandparents where we again had to "retrain" her. Oh boy. That was WAAAY worse than the first time.

But, last night going to bed was great. She was back to her quiet, lay in her crib self until 4 AM when chaos ensued and for the first time ever took a header out of her crib (see update above).

Wow, that was a long response to your little question. In summary, no, crying herself to sleep is not normal. Thanks!
Michelle

[newnana]

aw, thanks! Yeah, such a relief that she is improving (let's blame most of this on adjustment to being back home) and that DH and I can be united. Sweet relief!

Thanks!