Preschool dilemma: Need advice (Long)

[asha]

Hi ladies,
DS1 has been going to this preschool since December. At the time he had just turned 3. Before that he was in a FT daycare. When he started preschool he was writing a few letters, could identify all the letters and sound out most of them (phonics wise, iykwim). He could count up to 20, could not read any of the numbers.

DS2 was born in early Jan. Then we spent the first month in the hospital with DS2. DS1 was also very sick at the same time. The next couple of months, both of them kept falling sick and we were busy running to the hospital. As a result of all this, we completely ignored his homework and did not worry about what he was learning at all.

By the time things started settling down at home, it was summer break at school. They stopped doing much work. They have a whole lot of fun activities. They have field trips every week. Lets just say that he loves his school right now.

Now, I started paying attentin to what he is learning. I sit down with him every evening to do some tracing and coloring and some fun things for him. 10 days ago when I started this, he would not even sit down for 10 minutes. Now he is much better and can actually trace two pages and do some 4-5 pages of coloring, identifying alphabets in pictures, matching objects, sounding out letters etc. I think for his age, this is ok. However, I noticed that he has forgotten how to write the letters he once knew. He seems to ask for help for every little thing here (otherwise, he is extremely independent). He keeps complaining that tracing and learning is hard work and he does not want to do it. This is surprising to me because he is extremely energetic and enthusiastic about things.

I spoke to his teachers about all these things. They think he is doing ok for his age and I should not worry. One of his teachers says she does not believe that tracing is good for kids. She does not think kids like that. Well, I agree kids might enjoy it, but I am not sure kids would learn to write in any other way.
I recently told them I would like to see all his school work sheets. So, they started saving them for me. Today he came back with sheets of paper for tracing numbers 1 through 10. Through out the sheets DS1 had just written 1s, nothing else. No attempts to write anything else. I asked him if no one saw what he was doing. He said they did, but they did not say anything to him. He wrote 1s because they are easy.

DS is now 3 yrs 8 months. Now, he can identify letters, numbers up to 20, count up to a 100, with some help. He has gotten really great with puzzles. He can finish the puzzles with out even looking at the pictures (how they are supposed to look when they are done).
We are not very happy with the preschool with respect to academics. He loves it and it is a fun place for him. It is very close to home and convenient for both of us. This is just a preschool and DS would have to move to a different school next year.
The schools we are considering all have entrance exams to get in next year. Public schools are really bad where I am. Given that we are not very happy with the academics here, we are considering switching him to a different preschool right away. Sometimes I feel that we are being too agressive in our expectations. May be his teachers are right. He is probably doing fine for his age (He is the youngest in his class). He will be in the same class this year and will probably learn more now since he is a little older.
On the other hand I feel that this is when the kids' brain is developing really fast. They are at their highest learning capacity now. Now is when I can expect him to learn more. So, instead of pushing him to do better a few years later, we could probably help him in the long run by teaching him more now.

We have considered keeping him in the same school and working with him ourselves. DH and I work fulltime and our evening (3 hrs) is really crowded with two kids' feeding, bathing bedtime routines along with the rest of the housework. We really want to spend as much quality time with the kids as possible and am not sure we could do justice with this added task. At least not at this point. DS2 is 6 months old.

Now if you made it this far, What do you think? I would really like to hear from other parents.

[TracyBee]

I personally would not "push" him at all at this age. If he's interested in somethng (like coloring) encourage that but if he doesn't want to do it (tracing numbers), and would rather play, I see no harm in that whatsoever. I think if you push too much now, he may very well learn to dislike learning and tune out in kindergarten and in later school years when it's critical he listen and learn.

My DD is 4 and attends a preschool/part-time daycare 4 days a week for 5 hours per day. I don't really think of it as a school nor do I have academic expectations of the school - to me the academics are secondary. At this age, I just want her to be in an environment that is fun filled and structured and I want her surrounded by teachers that love her. Developing her personality and social skills is more important to me right now than learning to write her letters and numbers. There's always time to learn read and write later on, but she first needs self-esteem and social skills so she can succeed in school and in life.

[JBaxter]

Nathan is about the same age as your DS. He attended a 2 morning a week Montessori program last year( pre-primary). I really havent pushed him at all because he has 2 more years before he will attend kindergarten. He counts to 20 and can visually identify most of those he can also identify upper and lower case letters but his writing/coloring skills are probably behind.
The only reason I put him in preschool last year was because of his speech delay ( 6-9 month) and he has yet to determine if he is right or left handed. He will write/color or feed himself with which ever hand is closer.
As with my other 2 boys I didnt push it. I would encourage but not push.

[kedss]

Hi-

It sounds like he is doing great, and having fun. When I taught my 4 year old class, none of the kids could count that high, or really do their letters that well.(but that wasn't really the focus of our classroom, either)

I would try relaxing a little, maybe when you read to him at night, try having him try out words with you. Or put aside a few minutes for one on one with you or dad to work on a number or letter. He may be asking for help on things he used to know, because it gives him more time with you?

I wouldn't pull him out, I would let him enjoy this time at school, and it would be really rough on the household to put it through another transition, I would think.

Just my 2 cents, I know how tough it is, my kiddo is about the same age, and I'm doing my best at home with him, but I know he would learn much more if he were in an environment that you have for your son. :)

hugs

[m448]

I agree with all the others. My oldest is his age and I know it's hard not to see their wonderful love of learning and think, "now is the time to teach" when really children don't need us to teach to them at this age. Just like they learned to walk, talk and eat they pick up other things when they want to. I'm afraid if you push him at this age you'll have a burnt out elemntary school student. From his behavior (the writing of the 1s) it sounds like he's feeling the pressure to perform but has already figured out how to get around that when he's feeling pressured.

Kids learn new things in cycles that are not constant. They may learn many things over the course of a few weeks and then not pick up anything new for another few weeks.

[o_mom]

Honestly? I think you are pushing it a bit much. DS1 is the same age. He is not even in preschool. He knows colors, letters/sounds and numbers can count to 10 and sometimes a bit more. He can't write much more than a few simple letters and read his name and I am not worried in the least since we are learning so much other stuff. He wants to learn about bugs, cooking and fire trucks and we slip some 'academic' stuff in on the side. He will start preschool two days a week in the fall, but I'm hoping for more social development than anything else.

It sounds to me like he is already getting burnt out on learning and school. Homework and worksheets are not things that will make a 3 yo love learning, IMO.

[Roleysmom]

I think your expectations of him are a little too high. I think it does sound like he is getting burnt out and that would make me back off. I think at this age it's more important that he explore and is given the opportunity to learn without really knowing that he's learning. I personally don't feel like there's any need to do worksheets and formal sit down work at his age, but I'm a little on the extreme end, I think. I like the approach of taking a subject he's interested in (dinosaurs, trucks, etc.) and then going whole hog -- going to a museum to see an exhibit, getting books from the library, looking up facts on the internet. (And you may be doing this, I just think for his age that's a better approach than worksheets and tracing.)

When you say entrance exams for school next year, do you mean interview and child observation or an exam one-on-one with an instructor? In my area, the private schools will have a parent interview and some type of child observation, either a play date with applicants or a visit by the child into the classroom during a class day. Yes, they are evaluating the fit of the child/family with the school and probably a whole host of other things but it's pretty far from an entrance exam.

For the selective admission public schools here there are two processes that are more like exams. One is based more on innate ability (from what I understand) and the other is more skills based. I know more than a couple of people who had their child take both tests and he/she didn't get in based on the skills-based exam but did get in based on the other exam. Maybe finding out more about the entrance process in your area would relieve your anxiety a little bit and help you figure out an approach to prepare your son?

Two other thoughts: if you want to help him at home, there's a series of math stories for kids that a friend of ours who teaches math at a highly competitive high school has raved about. THey are called MathStart by Stuart J. Murphy and the level 1 servies is geared toward ages three and up. They are books that introduce math concepts in a very engaging way. I think the premise is that understanding things like place value are much more important than tracing numbers.

Also, do you have Brain Quest cards? You might like these. They are picture question and answer cards and they have sets for 2-3 year olds and three-year-olds. The non-skills based public exam here used something along the same lines.

He sounds like a great kid who is doing fine!

[SnuggleBuggles]

My personal preference for a preschool is where they learn through play and the teachers follow the lead of the kids in the class if they seem interested in learning (but they never push it- no homework, no worksheets, no busy work...). So, I would be happier with your preschool now than I was before. :)

I really think that, yeah, you can teach them that stuff and that's fine, but it isn't necessary. They will learn their letters and how to count without much pushing at all. They'll just naturally be interested and get it really quickly.

I think if you read to them, talk to them, and just expose them to the world they will learn all the things they should learn for school.

Find out more about the entrance exams. For the private kindergarten one ds went through he was not expected to count or do more academic things. He was expected to know numbers in the way that they would say "draw 3 triangles." He didn't have to be able to read or write for it. The exam may not be what you are expecting. And it is ages away and I'd bet that the normal 4-5 yo would do fine with them whether they went to an academic based preschool or a play based/ developmental one.

I know that dif't parents want dif't things from their kids' schools. So, while this would be a good fit for me don't hesitate to change if you find one you like better. :)

Beth

Btw, ds was never interested in writing till he was about 4.5 then he just jumped right in. He had been observing the letters when his teachers would write his name and he knows letters from things like his Frisge Phonics. But, had I put a crayon in his hand before he was ready and told him to do his letters I would have hit a brick wall. It all just clicked when he was ready. I think there is a lot to be said for following their interests at this age. :)

[egoldber]

I also think what you're describing is more academic than what is done in most preschools around here. And more academic than what I would personally be comfortable with at that age.

Many children, especially boys, don't have the fine motor skills to write well until they are closer to 5. Thats one of the reasons why age 5 is typically when K starts.

My DD's preschool did NO letter work or worksheets, they only worked on writing their own names, and then only in a fun way. She started writing when she went to K and had no trouble. She also was not reading at all when she started K and by the end of K she was reading at a first grade level. She is now over the summer reading books (of her own choosing and volition) closer to the 2nd and 3rd grade level. So when they are ready, this stuff usually clicks very fast. :)

[lovin2shop]

One thing that I think that you are getting at is - what is the best way to provide positive motivation with out pushing too hard? I struggle a little bit with this issue with my DS, as he is advanced in many areas such that learning is usually very easy to him. However, in the areas that are not his strengths, he is just not even interested in trying. If it is difficult, he wants to move to that he has already mastered and get good feedback for it. I think that it is very important to teach that you can improve significantly with some diligence and hard work (a lesson that I could have used in the upper grades). But, I have a hard time drawing the line between being encouraging vs. being pushy. So, I have just been trying to be very gentle in the encouragement, but I could probably use some better strategies along these lines as well.

[kransden]

If your kid is happy, I would leave him there. My child switched from a constructivist dc to an academic one when we moved. She was never happy there, and we had to battle to get her there in the mornings. You probably don't want that.

That said, your fears on doing well on the entrance exams are valid. So let's be practical, what do the entrance exams consist of? Does he need to know his letters? Call some of the schools and ask what is expected. From my limited understanding, they want your child to be able to follow directions, be able to finish a task, sit quietly if needed, take turns etc. The school should be able to fill in the academics. Of course I could be really wrong :)

Don't dismiss what your child is learning through play right now. He is probably making friends, learning complex social interactions (like taking turns, standing in line etc.) and honing gross motor skills.

Karin and Katie 10/24/02

[jenmcadams]

I agree with Beth -- what you're describing is much more academic than you'll find in most schools in our area. It was actually really important to me to pick a school that is child-led, play-based and non-academic. There's not a flashcard or a worksheet anywhere to be found. They do introduce pre-reading (and reading) skills in fun ways based on the child's interests and they do a great deal of experiential (almost science based) activities. The school my DD goes to is in a college setting and is considered a lab school (it's loosely based on reggio emilia principles along with other child-led philosophies and is considered a model preschool in our area).

Having said all that, I can understand some of the stress you're going through with making sure you're adequately addressing your kiddos interests and abilities (he sound very advanced for most of the 3-4 year old boys I know). Regardless of what you decide to do on the preschool switch front, if your DS is motivated to learn to write at his age, several folks have recommended Handwriting Without Tears to me. When my DD became interested in handwriting we did some trace type books and that got her to the point where she could write most letters -- they're not beautiful, but they're legible. She's not interested in learning to write any better (4.75 years) and she'll be starting Kindergarten, but I bookmarked HWT in case she seems to want to spend more time learning that stuff. We've done quite a bit of academic stuff with her outside of school as she's expressed interests. She knows most sounds and can sound some stuff out, so we tried a couple web-based phonics things. She didn't like them and lost interest, so we stopped for a while. Recently, she's expressed interest in reading again and we bought the BOB books and she reads one when she feels like it. I guess what I'm trying to say is we always thought we'd address any academic interests at home (based on her interest) and we use her daycare/preschool as a place for social learning and play.

I also know (from the experience of friends) how much stress there is when private school is your main option for Kindergarten and you're worried about admissions. We're lucky that we live 3 blocks from a Blue Ribbon school that is highly sought after, so I never really had to consider the private school angle. Definitely find out more about what your admissions process/exams will be like -- they can vary wildly for Kindergarten and seem to be more social/innate intellect than skills-based according to friends in my areas. An interesting read (although who knows it could provide more stress) is a book I read last fall called "The Kindergarten Wars" (all about Kindergarten Admissions --- follows a couple of families through the process).

http://www.amazon.com/Kindergarten-Wars-Americas-Private-Schools/dp/0446695203/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-9221240-0515618?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184866285&sr=8-1

It definitely made me happy that our public schools were a good option...good luck with your decision

[TahliasMom]

I too was worried that DD was really behind because her last year in homecare was filled with tv and very little brain stimulating activites. She's very advanced for her age in speech and is very active and spirited. I moved her to a preschool (christian montessori) in May when she turned 3. the first month she was very frustrated at school as she was used to running wild. then she slowly go to use doing jobs and following a new routine. the teachers keep reassuring me that DD is right on track, will pick up things at her own pace and play based learning is the best thing at this age. So I have stepped back and stopped pushing academics in the eve since she started preschool. I also use to do games, tracing, coloring etc. Now i just pick her up from school, we make dinner and we go to the park or for a bike ride. I still incorporate learning but so slightly like i'll ask her colors or to tell me how many of whaterver there is especially with cooking. It's more fun and interactive and DD doens't deem it as learning. ;) I let her ask for books, games and coloring. I seen her develop more patience and interest. ;)

Like others suggested, I would fine out the requirements to get into K into your area and discuss it with your DS's teachers.

And in the meantime, enjoy your eves!

[gisele]

"I spoke to his teachers about all these things. They think he is doing ok for his age and I should not worry. One of his teachers says she does not believe that tracing is good for kids. She does not think kids like that. Well, I agree kids might enjoy it, but I am not sure kids would learn to write in any other way."

I believe the teacher is 100% correct. Tracing only teaches the the motions. It does not teach the concepts.

There is a girl in my son's class (he is 4) who could write her name but only her name. But then later she stopped writing her name, and then a little later after that started to draw some very detailed little pictures of things. Sometime after that she started to write her name - and then started to write other words. What's the difference?

The difference is the first time she wrote her name, she was just going through the motions. Sure she knew the strokes but she didn't quite know what it represented. In her development, she learned that drawings and pictures represented things. She stopped the rote writing of her name and started to get into drawing the pictures. Later when she wrote her name, she understood it had meaning - the words and letters meant something, and with that understanding, translated it to other words.

Learning/development is a process of concepts. Let them learn on their own. It is common for them to do something, and then stop - like they are going backwards. But they are not, they are just developing - it's all part of learning.

[gisele]

"I spoke to his teachers about all these things. They think he is doing ok for his age and I should not worry. One of his teachers says she does not believe that tracing is good for kids. She does not think kids like that. Well, I agree kids might enjoy it, but I am not sure kids would learn to write in any other way."

I believe the teacher is 100% correct. Tracing only teaches the the motions. It does not teach the concepts.

There is a girl in my son's class (he is 4) who could write her name but only her name. But then later she stopped writing her name, and then a little later after that started to draw some very detailed little pictures of things. Sometime after that she started to write her name - and then started to write other words. What's the difference?

The difference is the first time she wrote her name, she was just going through the motions. Sure she knew the strokes but she didn't quite know what it represented. In her development, she learned that drawings and pictures represented things. She stopped the rote writing of her name and started to get into drawing the pictures. Later when she wrote her name, she understood it had meaning - the words and letters meant something, and with that understanding, translated it to other words.

Learning/development is a process of concepts. Let them learn on their own. It is common for them to do something, and then stop - like they are going backwards. But they are not, they are just developing - it's all part of learning.

[asha]

Thanks Kate,
I also think that one more change will make it really stressful for all of us. I went back to work just a month ago and DH just moved over to a new group at work. We do have our hands full at this time.

~Asha

[asha]

I will check out MathStart. We do have BrainQuest and he enjoys them

Honestly I had considered calling the schools to find out more about their entrance criteria. Thanks for the idea. I should be doing that.
~Asha

[asha]

Thanks Amy. This is exactly where we are now. He knows what he is good at and would rather do that instead of learning something else.

He has no interest in sitting down and trying out some things with me.

[asha]

I did forget to mention that I am very proud of his social skills and his vocabulory. If anyone comes home with kids, he will go and introduce himself, take the kids to his room, share his toys and play with them really well.
He is really good with his little brother as well.
We were recently at a college graduation party for some one we know thru work. Ofcourse he was utterly bored. DH's friend was there with his kids (13 and 9 yr old boys). This friend took DS over to them and got them introduced. For the next three hours, I did not have to worry abt him at all. He was talking to them all evening, got his own dinner, sat down and ate with them and handled himself very well. On our way back, I was so proud and so sad at the same time (that he is all grown up now).
When I am giving him a bath, I have noticed him say the water is "extremely" hot instead of very hot. Sometimes he complements my cooking by saying, "Mama the food is fabulously delicious".
He notices when I wear a new dress, new jewelry or even new shoes. DH never does that :(

OK, I guess that was enough bragging. But I am sure, you all understand the feeling.

[asha]

Thanks Jen, I will get this book from the library.

[lovin2shop]

Wish I had better advice, but I definitely know how you feel!

[randomkid]

As PPs have said, I would relax and back off a bit. With everything you all went through, it's not surprising to me that he wants to take it easy for a while. He doesn't need the stress of trying to learn right now and I agree with others that you shouldn't move him. If he is happy there and they are not concerned about his performance, then I would keep him where he is. BTW, I would also back off on the teaching at home.

Maybe this will help you. When my stepDD was 6yo, she really wanted to be able to read like her older sister who was 8 and advanced with reading. We never pressured her, but would read with her every time they were with us (which was often). She was pressuring herself so much, that she just froze up. We would ask her to read a simple sentence and she would just make stuff up. She wouldn't even read simple words like "the" or "and" correctly. One night, I told her to look at the word and pointed to it because I noticed she wasn't even looking at the page! She could read the word, but was just so stressed about the whole thing she was tuning out. We stopped trying with her and in a couple of months, she was reading non-stop and correctly. It just seemed to happen overnight when she decided it was time to do it.

I know that was a long example, but your story reminded me of that. I think he just needs to back off, be a kid and let him relax. I'm sure in a short time, when he is ready, he will pick up again. I'm afraid if you keep pushing him, he will just continue to take the easy way out because it's just too much pressure.