WWYD- need some ethical advice here. (kind of long, sorry)

[gatorsmom]

Since statistics show that 50% of twins are premature, there's an even greater risk that I'll be put on bed rest at some point here. Statistics show that if I need to be put on bedrest, it will be between weeks 30-37 (that's when premature contractions as well as other problems show up in multiple pregnancies). Since we don't have local family to help and my husband is very busy with work, we are putting together our "what if" plan and have decided to find a full-time nanny to start sometime in September (I'll be at about 28 weeks). If I'm not on bedrest then she can take care of the boys during the day while I finish feathering my nest preparing for the twins. If I DO go on bedrest, then she'll be doing everything I do.

If all goes well I'll be having my c-section in mid November. We plan on having the nanny working for us from September to end of December. After that, I should be recovered from the c/s and will most likely be able to take care of all the kids by myself. Since we have arranged for a housekeeper, laundry service and grocery delivery service, I should be able to manage taking care of the kids I would hope! So, we're thinking that we won't need a nanny after the end of December.

So, I started working with a nanny placement agency. I've been working with them for a week and they have forwarded me 2 resumes. And they weren't strong ones. The agency recruiter said that she called numerous potential nannies but many of them turned down the position because it was only a 4 month job. Most are looking for something with long-term potential. They said they were afraid that if they started working for me and a better position came up, they'd have to leave me to go for the long-term position. I would hate to get used to someone and then have them leave and get used to a new nanny again. However, I totally understand their point of view. But, it appears that I'm getting the candidates at the bottom of the barrel because this is a short term position with no long-term potential.

Here's the million-dollar question: should I start working with a second agency and tell them that this is an indefinite/long-term position? Then at the end of 4 months tell the nanny that the position is ending due to some financial issues on our end (or some other excuse)??? I'm sure I could get some better candidates this way but I really hate to do this to someone. It goes completely against my grain.

WWYD?

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[lizajane]

to be totally honest, my first thought was, really? taking care of FOUR kids 4 and under when the twin newborns are only 6 weeks old?

i personally do not have the finances for a maid, laundress, nanny and grocery delivery. i would HAVE to do all that myself and take care of the kids all alone for 12 hours/day. but i am pretty sure i would LOSE MY MIND.

it seems to be that if you can afford it, you might really want to keep the nanny around until the twins are allowing you to sleep nearly all night.

i wouldn't lie to an agency. just not me. but i might consider keeping it open ended. as in, we need someone to care for 2 kids during my third trimester, my post partum recovery, and for as long as needed while the twins are still very young.

[gatorsmom]

Well, we can afford those services for a short time period. As soon as I'm recovered, I will have to wean myself from the laundress, nanny and cut down on the housekeeper. The grocery delivery is pretty cheap, actually so I'll be keeping that :).

I really like your idea of keeping it open-ended. Who knows, I may go insane from being up all night breast-feeding 2 babies. I could easily see that happening and then the nanny would have to take care of all of us!!

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[tarabenet]

I'd keep it in my own mind that I might need these services longer than planned. I'd let the agency know that I was starting to consider how likely I'd be to keep the nanny longer than originally estimated, but I absolutely would not claim I was *sure* about extending the contract unless I really, truly expected to be doing that.

For me it is about putting out into the world what you want to get back. I want people to be honest with me and treat me fairly, and so that is how I try to deal with others. This is how I want the world to be, so I gotta do my part. In this case, too, it isn't some anonymous sort of agency that stands to lose. It is about fair treatment of the individual to whom you hope to entrust your precious children. I just think there's some bad "mojo" that could come from mishandling that situation.

And yes, I do know I'm a bit weird. But that is how I would look at this. Trust the Universe to work with you and hook you up with a good care provider, and do your part to make it happen in the *right way*. That energy gets rewarded. I have seen it over and over, and I truly believe it.

[kcandz]

Put yourself in the potential nanny's shoes: how would you feel if you agreed to a job thinking it is for a year at least only to have the rug pulled out from under you? Sure, sometimes things don't work out so contracts must be broken but it is deceitful to do it knowingly ahead of time.

You may want to rethink your timing too. Most nannys work start of Sept, the turnover time with kids going to preschool and whatnot. And who wants to lose their job or looking for another one right at Christmas?

Sept and Jan are the times that people tend to look for nanny start dates, and look now for Sept and November/early Dec for January. If you adjust the timing you also might then find a student who needs to take a semester off to work.

[chlobo]

There is a woman in my town who was in your situation, except she didn't exactly plan ahead. Anyhow, she ended up on bedrest in the hospital and the family had to scramble to find a nanny (kudos to you for thinking ahead). She ended up going to "term" and then having a c-section. The babies are now 5 months old and she still has the nanny. I think she would go insane without her.

I guess my point is that you may want to keep the nanny around a bit longer as 4 unde 5 might be quite overwhelming.

I defintely wouldn't lie. I would truthfully say that you aren't sure when it will end.

[Lolagirl]

As a mother of twins, I have to agree that you will probably still need the nanny for longer than six weeks after you have your babies. I only had my twins to take care of after they were born, and I very much needed the help of those who offered it far longer than the first six weeks (in fact I still have my mom coming once or twice a week to help out during the day.)

I would actually propose the following. First of all, find out how much of the other work you already have arranged to be done by third parties could also be done by a nanny, because most of the nannies I know also do stuff like laundry, cleaning, and errands. If you find out that a nanny would do those things than of course you can have her do them and save yourself some money, and also hire her on for a longer, more indefinite stay. I don't think it would be at all dishonest to simply tell the nanny service that you now think you will need her services for longer than initially planned and that you will be taking more of a wait and see approach.

Hope that helps!

[gatorsmom]

Thank you. This advice was very helpful. That is exactly what I plan to do. I don't have much help from family around here and clearly have no idea what I'm in for.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[spu]

have you considered a 'post-partum doula'? Some will act similar to a nanny - even run errands or do housework, and I think they work hourly... so a long term committment isn't an issue. Or is there a college/high school girl you could hire like a part time job?

I had twins, and was on bedrest from 18 - 36 weeks... but at the time, all I had was DH and our dog... How is your cervix? That's one of the biggest things with twin pregnancies... are they monitoring it very closely? How's your b.p.? that is also a factor in preterm labor, from what I hear... make sure you're drinking lots of water, and avoiding salty foods...

good luck!
susan

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twin girls charlotte + else + cashew! 10.06
+ OMG #4! due 2.08
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http://bd.l

[gatorsmom]

Um, thank you, I think. As I said in my OP, I can totally see the nanny's point of view and it goes against my grain to be dishonest. I really don't need a lecture on how to treat people nicely. I was really looking for another solution to this situation.

If you haven't noticed from some of my posts in other threads, I'm very uncomfortable at 24 weeks. And I"m scared. I know having twins is going to be very, very difficult at first. My husband is a workaholic and I don't have family around that can help (my mom would have been great but she died 2 years ago). I am going to need good dependable help and I was just asking for another way to handle this where no one was harmed. Apparently the fact that this was bothering my conscience didn't come out clearly in my op.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[Tondi G]

I would find out how much of the other work you already have arranged to be done by the housekeeper etc could also be done by a nanny, because a lot of the nannies I know also do stuff like laundry, cleaning and sometimes cooking too. If you find out that a nanny would do those things, then you can save money by letting the other services go and also potentially hire her on for longer. I don't think it would be at all dishonest to tell the nanny service that you sat down with your husband and realized you might need her services for longer than initially planned. If it were me I would be pushing to have help for longer than 6 weeks. I'd probably be thinking closer to maybe th 4 or 6 month mark with the babies.... those first months are tough. They need so much from you and you are going to be worn out trying to do it all yourself.

Good Luck

~Tondi
Mommy to Mason 7/01 and Aidan 5/04

[lmintzer]

Hi Lisa. Your are smart to be thinking ahead and planning for possible bedrest and help after the twins are born. : )

Here are my suggestions: you might want to NOT go through a nanny search agency. You might have better luck looking on your own, via Craigslist or through a local university. The agencies charge a huge finder's fee (as you may know) and you probably won't be offered strong candidates for a part time job. We wound up finding our nanny (for a part-time position, which can be hard) on our own through posting in the newspaper. It was a bit daunting wading through all of the calls, but it was totally worth being able to interview until we found the right person.

I'm thinking you probably will need help longer than you are planning for. Maybe you could find someone part-time but for longer? That way, you would spend the same amount of money but would stretch your help out for more months. You could even look for something like 30 hours/week if you want almost full-time, thinking you could manage on your own a few hours/day.

A post-partum doula for a few weeks (maybe even in addition to a nanny) would be a life-saver. We had one after Jack when we were in L.A. away from all family and I was recovering from a c-section. Jack was colicky and I was having bf problems and getting no sleep. She was amazing! I still send her holiday cards 6 years later!

Believe me, you won't regret having 2 people in the house helping for a few weeks. The nanny would be responsible for your older kiddos, and the doula would be there to help you with the twins and give you some much-needed respite.

Hope these ideas help some!

[lmintzer]

Hi Lisa. Your are smart to be thinking ahead and planning for possible bedrest and help after the twins are born. : )

Here are my suggestions: you might want to NOT go through a nanny search agency. You might have better luck looking on your own, via Craigslist or through a local university. The agencies charge a huge finder's fee (as you may know) and you probably won't be offered strong candidates for a part time job. We wound up finding our nanny (for a part-time position, which can be hard) on our own through posting in the newspaper. It was a bit daunting wading through all of the calls, but it was totally worth being able to interview until we found the right person.

I'm thinking you probably will need help longer than you are planning for. Maybe you could find someone part-time but for longer? That way, you would spend the same amount of money but would stretch your help out for more months. You could even look for something like 30 hours/week if you want almost full-time, thinking you could manage on your own a few hours/day.

A post-partum doula for a few weeks (maybe even in addition to a nanny) would be a life-saver. We had one after Jack when we were in L.A. away from all family and I was recovering from a c-section. Jack was colicky and I was having bf problems and getting no sleep. She was amazing! I still send her holiday cards 6 years later!

Believe me, you won't regret having 2 people in the house helping for a few weeks. The nanny would be responsible for your older kiddos, and the doula would be there to help you with the twins and give you some much-needed respite.

Hope these ideas help some!

[gatorsmom]

Thanks for the suggestions. We are planning getting a post-partum doula to help with night feedings for the first 2 weeks after I come home. Well, that is if both the babies come home with me. Of the 50% of twins born prematurely, 50% of those babies spend time in the NICU, so there's a possibility I will be coming home alone. One mother of twins said that the only positive aspect of that is that the mother can recuperate well at home because the babies are still at the hospital. So, in that case I wouldn't need a doula.

The problem I'm finding with good, quality nannies, is that they want full-time indefinite positions- just like a regular job. I could place an ad in a newspaper but frankly I wanted the nanny agency to wade through all that for me (I used to be an HR manager and so am very aware of how much work it would take to pick out a good nanny from all the responses to a newspaper ad. I don't have time for that). Also, I"m assuming that a serious nanny would be affiliated in some way through an agency.

As for a continuous part-time position, any seriously qualified nanny is not going to accept going from full-time to part-time. It's just like any serious job. So, sometime next year we could do a search for a part-time nanny, but that would be a separate search. I'm just thinking of getting through the next 4 months. One thing at a time.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[MommyAllison]

Hi Lisa,

I don't really have any advice, just wanted to offer encouragement. :) We are friends with a family who had quadruplets, then had twins a year later, then another baby I believe two years later. 7 kids under 4.5, I think it was. They did have a lot of help from family, and now the quads are going to be sophomores in high school, the twins will be freshmen, and the youngest is in jr high. The kids are all turning out wonderfully and are all really close to each other. The parents are still sane and smiling and loving life too. :) You will make it through, too!

Hugs, and I hope you find the perfect nanny very soon!

Allison
Mama to DD 11/05

[lizajane]

just BTW-
i want to be sure i didn't sound like i was judging that you have found some good help. i thought about it later and got all worried. i just meant to say that if you can get help, TAKE IT!! we all need all the help we can get! and my second child didn't sleep all night until he was 18 months old and if there had been two of him, i am pretty sure i would have actually died from sleep deprivation. ;)

[lizajane]

the idea of having seven kids under 4.5 years just about made me throw up. what an amazing mom she must be to have made it through those early years!!!

[hardysmom]

OK, first a correction which, hopefully, will ease some fear...

According to my OB, 50% of twins are NOT premature. Certainly not 50% of twins with maternal histories of term births and good prenatal care.

This isn't to say that many, many don't come early. Twins are considered "term" at 37 weeks. Some books juke around those numbers to sound scary, no doubt to sell more books. Like, a 37 weeker is a preemie. I think all babies born before 36 weeks will spend some time in NICU, if only as a precaution. The closer you are to 36 or 37 weeks, the less time.

I was scheduled for a c/s at 38 weeks (couldn't vbac w/ multiples) but on my 37 week check, one baby seemed very low. With NO notice, they sent me to the hospital and the babies were delivered a couple hours later. They BOTH weighed 5 lbs, 14 oz and we all went home together 3 days later.

Many OBs won't allow twins to go past 37-38 weeks. Some will schedule c/s at 36. Only a tiny number go to 40 weeks. You'll hear the occasional story, but it isn't the norm. 50% of mothers will have some complictations. Point is, you really have entered the Great Unknown.

A back-up plan is a Good Thing. We also don't have any family around and my DH works long, unpredictable hours and travels. I hired a high-school exchange student to help with my DS while I was still pregnant. She kept coming a 3 hours a day until the babies were 3 mo and she had to return to Russia. The hardest part, for me, wasn't the twins, it was my older DS. I have a weekly housekeeper and my Mother & MIL each came for 2 weeks (back to back without the grand-dads) to help the first month. For me, that was enough. I nursed, so no one could really help with feeding anyway.

OK- I was going to suggest that you consider an au pair or a college student taking a semester off. It is short notice for an au pair, but call an agency. Sometimes placements fall through. I would also look on my own. Put an add in campus newspapers, etc... I am sure it is overwhelming, but you may find a better fit for less money.

I might also consider re-arranging the nanny's duties to be primarily responsible for the 2 older kids OR the babies AND to do the laundry, etc... maybe that way you could cut down on the laundry service and keep the nanny longer? Being fully reponsible for newborn twins AND 2 other kids under 5 could scare off anyone experienced who has other options.

In my past working life I ran an employment agency for a bit... PPs are correct that you won't get the best for limited job unless a nanny just happens to fall out of the sky who has a weird short-time need. That DOES happen, but it is luck.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be fair to anyone if you fudged the numbers, particularly if the client is paying the fees for the placement.

Take care! Stephanie

[Momof3Labs]

We recently hired a nanny, so my response is based on my experience with her (and the process in general).

IME, the best nannies are NOT affiliated with agencies. They are able to get jobs on their own, usually through word of mouth via other nannies or their previous employer(s). The ones who go with agencies are just starting out, just moved to the area, or just plain can't find a job on their own.

We found ours on craigslist, where her last family advertised for her to help her find a job. She is totally amazing with 14 years of experience, 6 years teaching preschool, experience with both newborns and twins, and four children of her own.

We also advertised our position on craigslist, but it didn't take too long to wade through the applicants - most of them didn't meet our criteria!

I'd recommend that you look on craigslist (or sittercity or gonannies - whatever is popular in your area) and when interviewing, be honest that it is not a long-term full-time position, but it will be full-time through at least the end of December, and likely part-time after that. Assure her that you will help her find a job when you no longer need her (which may include helping her find something part-time if you decide to use her part-time for a while longer) so that she isn't hung out to dry on this short-term position. There is ALWAYS a demand for excellent nannies, so if you find someone good, I'm sure that you'll quickly find a new job for her when she's done with you. Yes, that's one more task for your plate, but she'll still be helping with the kids while you're helping with her job search.

This way, you are honest with her, yet get GOOD help that you need for as long as you will need it.

[tarabenet]

Oh gosh, Lisa! I just logged in and saw this! I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to lecture at all! Yes, your conscience most definitely did come through in your post -- my heartfelt response was supporting that side of your thoughts on this dilemma. I guess I was just sort of "thinking out loud" (well, in type, anyway).

I think you are a wise woman to be thinking all of this through and to be lining up the help you will need. I admire the way you are taking on the very special challenges that are in front of you. I am very sorry that my reply offended you. That was nowhere close to what I meant to do.

[gatorsmom]

No, I'm sorry I jumped all over you. It's been a long, rainy weekend, DH is out of town, and the kids are getting on my nerves. Sorry I jumped all over you. If I didn't want your opinion, I shouldn't have asked for it, right? I believe in kharma (sp?) too, so I guess your response bothered me because I saw a lot of truth in what you said. Sometimes it's hardest to hear the truth. kwim?

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[gatorsmom]

Thank you. That is excellent advice. I think I'm going to really amp-up my search starting Monday. I'll feel so much better when I find someone I am confident about.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[gatorruth]

I havent' read all of the posts, but do you have a mom of twins group where you live?? I have 2 friends with twins (one has a 5 year old and 18 month old twins, the other has 15 month old twins only). The mom with just the twins has a nanny that comes over between 10 and 6 monday thru friday-- still!! The other mom has a bunch of family here and they all have their assigned days to help. I know they both have gotten a bunch of tips and nanny referrals from the mom of twins group.

Good luck-- and count on that help sticking around longer than a measly 6 weeks!!!

[Lolagirl]

Lisa, I just wanted to offer a few words of reassurance in addition to my earlier comment. Something important to keep in mind is that while there is a greater likelihood that you will deliver early with twins than with a singleton pregnancy, the majority of twin pregnancies still result in near or term deliveries with perfectly healthy babies. It's great that you are developing a contingency/ worse case scenario plan, because you don't want to be caught unprepared if you do go early. But as long as you take care of yourself and keep up with your OB visits there is every reason to be optimistic that your pregnancy will end with healthy full-term babies and a healthy mom as well.

Good luck!

[gatorsmom]

Thanks for your advice- I always appreciate it. Regarding the 50% of twins born prematurely (by that I mean BEFORE 37 weeks at which point twins are considered full term), I've actually run into that statistic three times by 3 different sources. When I first read it in a book I was skeptical. Then I heard a NICU nurse say it. Then the L&D nurse who was leading our Multiples Class. oH, and my Ob confirmed that number. And of course now that I'm having twins I run into people everywhere who have either had twins or know of people who've had twins. And I'd have to say that about half of the time the mothers have delivered before 37 weeks. Of course, I'm always happy to hear of a mother who managed to carry hers up to 40 weeks (a friend's mom carried her twins to 41 weeks and gave birth to 2, 7lb. babies!!!). But I'm starting to trust that number because it seems to keep confirming itself.

Anywho, the point is, I'm trying to be prepared for anything. I'm most frightened that I will be caught unprepared. As I said in my OP, I"m going to need someone to take care of my older 2 boys. I don't expect the nanny to help with the infants so that should help with the search. I really want someone with experience and someone I know I can depend on so I"m focusing my search on someone a bit more mature than an au pair or a college student. Especially not a foreign au pair- my life is already complicated enough without having to work around cultural or language differences.

I still have a month or so to look so as a pp suggested, I'm going to widen my search to websites and additional nanny agencies and leave the duration open-ended. I think that will greatly improve my odds.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[muskiesusan]

My neighbor recently had twins and also has two older boys (5 and 2). She was caught off guard with the bedrest, so neighbors chipped in until she found help. They placed ads and told pretty much everyone they knew they needed help. A neighbor knew a college girl who was taking a break from school, so they hired her. This girl was awesome (I think every mom in the neighborhood got her # for when this job was up). At any rate, my neighbor had her ft for 4 months pp. Since then, she has had mommy helpers come over to play with the boys a few times a week and said it has been working out well.


Susan
Mom to Nick 10/01
& Alex 04/04

[hardysmom]

I'm just trying to make you feel better, not prove you Wrong. I was just trying to pass along some re-assuring news I received while in your situation.

I ran into those statistics as well and took them to my OB... she was the one who said, in her experience 50% of her practice's mothers didn't deliver before 37 weeks and that most who did knew there were issues in the 2nd term. Her feeling was that the outcomes for mothers who had carried to term with previous pregnancies and who had good prenatal care was pretty good. That said, WELL OVER 50% of her patients DID end up on some degree of bedrest, most 30-37 weeks.

Among mothers carrying multiples there is a high rate of people w/o prenatal care and plenty with difficult prior pregnancies. There are all of the people who are first-time moms with fertility issues/IVF/etc... Everyone is lumped in the same statistical basket. In my Twins Club those of us with older kids are in a minority. For most, it seems, it was a first/only pregnancy.

NICU nurses see babies in trouble. Many seem shocked when I say my twins were term b/c they see SO many preemie multiples which skews their opinion. They don't realize how many never go "upstairs." My neighbor is a NICU nurse and was the one who pointed that out to me.

I am not trying to talk you out of having a good back-up system. Obviously, that is very, very important. Nor am I trying to down-play the additional risks of multiple births. It is, indeed, significantly higher than with singletons. I agree that the worst thing is to be caught unprepared with no extended family to help.

You know what you can/can't handle. I wouldn't hire an au pair or student for newborn twins, but I would be OK with that for my older son. You COULD do a less experienced person for the toddlers & a night nurse or post-partum doula for a few weeks when the babies come. Without agency fees, you may even break even with 2 people instead of one. If you feel like you need more (help or experience), that it TOTALLY your call...

My point was just that you might have to alter your expectations (or the persons responsibilities) to find a really good person for a short-term placement. My experience running an agency was that the best candidates have a lot of options. To me, it would be better to have a GREAT student, who was off for a semester and not looking for another job than an experienced, "real" nanny who took the job, but really needed a long-term placement. Again, in my experience in staffing, occasionally employers would fudge the potential for temp positions "going permanent." MUCH more often, candidates would accept temporary positions saying they were OK, but really they kept looking for full-time jobs and apologetically quit shortly into the placement. For you, that would be awful.

I know when I was having my twins we talked to an agency which had a bank of nannies who preferred newborn and short-term assignments. Have you called around to other agencies to see if any of them have such people who AREN'T looking for long-term placement. They tended to be pretty expensive because they worked for the agency, not directly for the family. I think that place did both nannies and baby-sitting services.

There isn't an easy answer. I am so sympathetic! Take care. Stephanie

[o_mom]

> I"m going to need someone to take care of my
>older 2 boys. I don't expect the nanny to help with the
>infants so that should help with the search. I really want
>someone with experience and someone I know I can depend on so
>I"m focusing my search on someone a bit more mature than an au
>pair or a college student.

I think you may be missing a great potenial source here. Personally, I would hire any of the three college girls next door (18-23 yrs) for something like this in an instant. However, my MIL, who was a nanny and used an agency for placements, I wouldn't leave alone with my own kids for five minutes.