I am having anger issues.

[o_mom]

I don't have any advice right now as I need to get to bed. I do want to let you know that you are most definately not alone. :-( We are having many of the same issues with him pushing the limits and my being stuck with the baby and can't enforce anything. I hope you get some good advice, here!

[Raidra]

We're having a lot of the same issues in our house. First of all, I think the anger on your part is totally normal. There's a really great thread on MDC called Parenting with Rage.. I can try to find it for you if you're interested. I've been trying to work hard on this myself and for me, that involves really taking a look at how much I'm trying to manage his behavior. I find that when I'm nitpicking, I tend to overreact. If I can get into into my head that whatever minor thing he's doing isn't a big deal, and refrain from telling him to cut it out, then it eliminates me getting angry at him for not listening. That said.. when I do get angry, I just try to take deep breaths and sometimes I'll go take a break.

One of my worst parenting moments lately was when Colwyn said that he wanted to throw me out the window. It was the first time he'd ever said anything like that to me, and I let it get to me. Luckily, I only took away his binky (he was trying to fall asleep), but I still felt bad. When I thought about it later (and did some reading online) I realized that it's actually a good thing that he's learning to verbalize his anger rather than just screaming. But I also think that he picks up some of the yelling/angry tones from the way I speak when I'm upset. So I'm really trying hard to stay calm.

I've also noticed that when I've lost it once during the day, then Colwyn is much more likely to lose it later. Then I'll flip out again. I think we feed off each other, you know? So I'm hoping that by modeling good behavior and teaching him the way to express his frustration/anger, it'll help cut down on tantrums.

One of the things we do is the second Colwyn starts to get upset, I'll offer (not enforce) a rest in his bed. He can have his binky and lovey and calm down. If he wants me to stay with him, I do, and if he wants me to leave, I do. If your son isn't hurting himself during a tantrum, it is okay to protect yourself by leaving his space. We don't do timeouts, but my son knows that if he hurts me, I'll protect myself by moving away from him.

For us, Colwyn's main trigger is not wanting to share with little brother. We try to head off as many tantrums as possible by recognizing his triggers. Have you noticed what sets your son off? If he might be hungry before dinner, maybe a small healthy snack would help him feel better. Or if he balks at cleaning up right before bed, maybe do a big clean up earlier and then just try to pick up as you go until bedtime. The kids help me clean up the house right before my husband comes home from work, and then I just try to keep things tidy myself after.

Anyway. Keep in mind that this is just a stage, and from what I've seen, a very normal one. I've read that these things come in 6 month cycles. For us, 3 was horrible, but 3.5 was fine. Now we're gearing up for 4 to be nasty. I just try to remember that he's more frightened and upset by his tantrums than I am, and to respond as lovingly and kindly as I can. Try to get some breaks so that you have time to recharge, too.

[missym]

Kelli, I'm off to bed right now, but had to take a quick moment to respond. You are not alone. I have seriously considered going on medication to help control my feelings of rage. It is an aspect of parenting I was totally unprepared for. The MDC thread referenced above is a great place for support. Hang in there, mama. **hugs**

Missy, mom to Gwen 03/03 and Rebecca 09/05

http://bf.lilypie.com/r2Qhm4.png

[lizajane]

i think i may be able to help. i hope. well, i will try.

i had the same problem when dylan was a baby. honestly, IMO, it isn't about Luke's age. or even phase. it is about you and the baby. he is reacting to you and the baby, i mean.

when joey was teeny, he didn't really do much and wasn't quite as much "in luke's way." now that he is getting older, he laughs and plays and maybe crawls. suddenly, joey is a real person. you noted that the tantrums often occur when you are isolated with joey and can't give luke any attention- nursing to sleep means you are "stuck" in one place and you can't even talk.

also, the more angry you get with luke, the more apparent to him that he gets negative attention and joey gets positive attention. your anger fuels his fire of resentment toward this other human in your house. yes, this is all speculative. but i am trying to relate what you told me to my own experience.

so the solution is what you really want, not a description of the problem! you already know there is a problem!

here is what worked for me. and get ready, it is really hard.

HEAP the positive attention on luke. PILE IT ON. lavish him with praise and love and joy at his existance. every time he does anything wonderful, go crazy for it. and when he makes you angry, walk away. take your deep breaths. close yourself in the bathroom for a minute. but no matter what you do, do NOT allow yourself to give him negative attention. because if he isn't getting all the positive attention he craves, he will find a way to get attention somehow, even if negative.

work really hard to spend alone time with him. try not to praise the baby around him. if you ever say anything about the baby, add something good about him. if someone else compliments the baby, add a compliment about him. "wow, joey is SO cute!" and then you add, "so cute just like his big brother luke!" or if joey does something silly and you laugh, tell luke, "joey is so funny! i bet he learned his jokes from his funny big brother! you sure do teach him great things!"

and finally, the absolute hardest part. use only positive discipline. "hug therapy" for lack of a better term. if he hits the baby, pull him aside and sit him in your lap. tell him softly, "i know you feel very frustrated right now. i understand that it is so hard to be the big brother sometimes when you need mommy and joey needs mommy, too. but we cannot hit when we feel frustrated or angry. hitting hurts. let's talk about other ways to show that we feel upset." you can start by giving him ideas, then ask him ideas. "when we feel angry, we can talk about our feelings. you can say, mommy, i feel so angry. or i feel so frustrated. you can say, i feel like hitting! or throwing! or yelling! but you can't actually hit and throw things. if you need to yell, you can go to your room and take a break.

i can't tell you how much diference it has made with schuyler to speak softly and gently and offer alternatives. that is NOT to say i don't ever yell!!!! i lose it!!! too often, even. but WOW. the turn around was incredible.

finally, talk to your doctor. if you are really blowing your top, you may need some medication to help you cool your heels for a while. the day i threw schuyler's toy across the room and broke it as it hit the wall was the day i got some meds. i wasn't able to control my feelings and it was not only hurting my child (because i yelled, not hit! yikes!) it was really hurting me. you may not feel depressed, but anti-depressants are often the answer for angry control issues. please, please at least check in with a physician if you can't go the extra mile and get some counseling for yourself.

i hope any of that was helpful.

hang in there.

peace to you.

[gatorsmom]

You probably have tried all of the things i'm about to mention but sometimes the simplest things escape us.

I notice that my 4 yr old's behavior is worst when he is tired, hungry or not stimulated enough. Moving up bedtimes is a great idea and sticking to a routine around bedtimes makes them feel more in control, too. Giving him regular protein-rich snacks is important too. That will keep his blood sugar even-keeled.

I've also noticed that my 4 yr old is much better behaved when he's had a playdate morning. He is active and engaged and comes home spent. He's a much nicer kid the rest of the day. If you don't have your child signed up for some sort of Preschool class, you might want to consider it.

Also, make sure you are giving him positive reinforcements throughout the day and extra hugs. He might be a little jealous of the baby who gets to nurse now when he doesn't anymore. Random love and hugs is always good.

As for your reaction, you need a mom's day out. Because you are NOT a failure. You are a mom going through a tough phase- that's all it is. The problem is that you are too tied up in this emotionally to relax. Can you get a mother's helper to come over and play with him for a couple of hours in the afternoon while you just have some time to yourself? Even if it's in another room of the house? Even if you just go sit in your car and read a book? You just need a breather and I promise, your perspective will be lighter. Every time I come back from being away for a few hours, I am always amazed at how much more precious and darling I think my children are.

So much of this stuff is probably just repetition, but sometimes we just need reminding. Hang in there, things are bound to improve because you are trying so hard.

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[ColorBlue]

Gosh your post really spoke to me because we went through some similar rough times with my dd who is now almost six.

First give yourself a break and stop feeling guilty about getting so angry. We love them sooo much and that is why you are getting so angry. Many many moms will have the same feelings that you have its nothing to be ashamed. Really totally been there!

First you probably need to have a break, can you get a babysitter so you can get out for a few hours, I found that when I'm away for a bit I can deal better when I come back.

Second, I realized that my Dd's behavior was totally tied to my behavior. The angrier I got the worse she got. the anger and the drama and the yelling only fed her bad behavior. So I had to totally disconnect myself emotionally from her behavior. I just pretended that she was someone else's child...sounds terrible but actually its good. You certainly wouldn't yell and scream at or even seethe in anger at someone else's child.

Hope that helps.

Tracy

[Marisa6826]

Girlie, are you SURE Sophie and Luke aren't related? We've got a very similar scenario going on here (with the exception of the violent behaviour and spitting).

Threats don't work, ultimatums have no effect, taking toys/books/privileges way; nada. We're kind of in the same boat. I've also found that it's become VERY hard for me to like my kid. And when I see that I start gravitating toward Mia (instead of her sister), I feel like a Mean Mommy. It's just gotten to the point where as much as I love my DD, I don't necessarily LIKE her, kwim?

It's not that she's doing anything absolutely horrifying. But it's the incessant whining, not listening, fighting with her sister, bothering the dogs, challenging me on E V E R Y T H I N G, that's put me at the end of my rope.

A few weeks ago, I was seriously considering looking for a child therapist because it's that bad. I hate the person I become around her (and I do admit, that after the third hour of telling her to get back in bed at 11pm, I will go upstairs and spank her). And, yes, I already take my daily dose of Happy Cat Pills (a/k/a antidepressants).

I think it's a matter of not giving enough *positive* attention. It's soooo easy to not remember to comment on their good behaviour, or when they're helping, or listening, or whatever. It takes a really conscious effort on my part. Something that I need a lot of practice with.

The *only* thing that helps me through all of this is the hope that she won't remember all the bad days. She's almost five years old. She's a happy, healthy, smart, funny kid. Yet, It's very easy to forget that she's only four and a half, and I tend to expect more from her than I think she's literally able to deliver.

Maybe try lowering your expectations of Luke - doing baby steps. For instance, when you know that you have to feed the baby, have some sort of game/task in mind for Luke. Sophie LOVES to play the game 'List all the...'. Yesterday, it was 'list all the things that are sticky'. Or it can be 'list everything that you can think of that are green'. Basically, divert and occupy his mind so that he doesn't necessarily realise that you aren't giving him 100% of your time.

I'll be watching this thread to see if there are other suggestions, because I'm in the same boat. Maybe if more people join, we can have them bring cookies. :P

-m

[kep]

My four year old is driving me to the crazy house. I hate the person I am becoming. I yell all the time. I shout. I get in his face and talk with clenched teeth. I have almost no patience for certain things he does, esepcially "hot-button" issues like hitting, huring the baby, spitting, and seriously disrespectful back-talking. I have tons of patience for the vast majority of the day, but when Luke starts doing one of the above behaviors I just lose it.

The frequency of his meltdowns/tantrums seem to be increasing, not decreasing as I thought they would around age four. His tantrums are just crazy. Screeching, hitting anyone he can get his hands on, kicking, spitting in faces, telling us he wants to "throw us away"... And the tantrums just go on and on. He probably has one good tantrum at least every other day. And each tantrum usually lasts at least 30-40 minutes. I can tell that it scares him when he's out of control, but he just doesn't know how to stop the tantrum, and I don't either.

All of the "experts" out there seem to say to just ride out a tantrum, as long as the child isn't hurting themselves or others. But he is. One of my favorite books on children suggests gently restraining the child between your legs while sitting on the floor, and trying to protect them from themselves and not getting yourself hurt in the process. Gently restraining Luke immediately escalates the tantrum to the Nth degree. He freaks out. None of this fighting you for a few minutes, crying it out in your arms, and presto, the tantrum is over business.

The discipline techniques that worked at age two are no longer effective. I really don't believe in spanking. Luke is extremely strong willed, whip smart, and can talk anyone into a corner. He is very much just like his father and I were as children. I honestly don't know what to do with him. I keep thinking that if we don't find a way to deal with these issues now, we're going to be in a load of trouble when he's 6. And 8. And 10.

I can't seem to find a new game plan that works with him. We have been trying the Super-Nanny techniques from her book lately. That seems to be working okay, but we're still having a lot of problems. Part of it is that I'm not always able to just leap up in the middle of whatever I am doing to enforce the naughty chair. Sometimes I'm right in the middle of nursing Joey to sleep when Luke acts up. What then? I know that I am lacking in the enforcement department, but I'm trying really, really hard to keep clear, consistant rules in our house, and to follow through every time.

And just so you don't think that our lives are just terrible, a lot of things have improved since we've started really working on Luke's behavior. He is now really good at sitting at the table with us at dinner time, praying, and then eating with the family and participating with the conversation at the table. He also does really well sitting down with me in the mornings to do some simple homeschooling together. He has excellent manners most of the time, and I routinely get complimented on his behavior out in public.

I have noticed that most of the tantrums seem to occur during the evening hours, so I have been systmatically moving up the kids' bedtimes during the last week. I am trying to find the right time for them that allows them to have a little down time after dinner, clean up the toys, and go through the bedtime routine before they are too exhausted to cope.

I am mostly concerned with my response to Luke. I can go from being completely calm and relaxed to being almost in a rage like anger in a split second. I seriously am one of those people who normally can go through life fairly calmly without getting too upset about most things. Think fairly laid back type B personality. I am just at my wits end with Luke, and I just snap lately. I feel like I just want to seriously drop him off at some street corner and leave him there. Some nights, it's all I can do not to spank the heck out of him. He just makes me so mad.

What makes me feel worst of all is that I know that, as the parent, that I am supposed to be the "rock" in my child's life. I should be the one that is above the yelling and shouting. I shouldn't react like I've been doing. I should remain (on the outside) cool, calm, and collected while gently guiding my child through the ups and downs of his day. During the worst of his tantrums, I should be the calm one he can turn to, not the upset, screaming mother who just can't take anymore. :( I know that I'm letting him down. I always try and talk with him afterwards about what happened, once we have all calmed down again. I always appologize for losing my cool, and we talk about what we can do to handle things better in the future. Then he goes to bed, and I spend the rest of the evening in tears, feeling like a failure.

I am trying to be brutally honest here, and I'm laying it all out there for you guys to see. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has ever gone through this, and I would love a little support and guidance.

Thanks.


Kelli

Proud Mommy to Lukey (2003). Weaned after 3 years of happy nursing!
And Mommy to our newest baby, Joseph, born 3 days after Christmas.

[mamicka]

NAK.

Just baked ya'll some brownies. Can I join in?

This is *so* what's going on here now. I've started reading "How to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk" & it's really spoken to me. I've only started implementing the first chapter & already there's a difference in his behavior. For us, it seems that most of his tantrums were the result of his not feeling listened to & that made him frustrated & angry. So we really focus on letting him express how he's feeling & letting him know that we hear. So far that's all we've done & it's worked wonders.

I'm going to try some of the other suggestions starting this morning. Would love to hear more.

Allison
DS 2003
DS 2005
DS 2007

[hardysmom]

You are not alone.

OK first, with kids whose tanturms can go over the top, there are a couple of things I've learned from our Occupational Therapist that seem to work magic to "reset their brains" for a lack of a better term. Vestibular stimulation-- jumping (we use a mini-tramp), swinging, spinning can work wonders to calm a child whose tantrums can take on a life of their own. My son had a lot of issues at the dinner table so before meals, we would put a cotton ball on the floor and he would "race" is across the room by blowing it. It forced him to take deep breaths (which calms) and to have some "heavy work" which is also good for calming anxiety. I put a up an indoor swing from Ikea. In the middle of some whoppers, I would swing/spin DC, which usually helped- and made me feel less out of control.

I think most moms, on some level, can relate. 2 of my kids have sensory issues which make them over-react to silly things which shouldn't be a big deal. Like, Hardy (at 5.5) will throw an over-the-top, freak-out tantrum because he doesn't like his shoes (which were fine yesterday) while we are already running late for school. I KNOW my kids have issues beyond their control and it is STILL hard for me not to get overwhelmed and angry.

In the beginning, I thought we were stuck in some bad-attention-is-better-than-no-attention phase after my twins birth, but eventually I knew I needed help for both of us. I just couldn't imagine any other reason my otherwise fantastic child was flipping out. Additionally, I had a lot of bad advice about how he was seeking boundries and trying to control and how I needed to "nip it in the bud." Unfortunately, this was the completely WRONG approach for my child and just made things worse and both of us more frusterated. The key needed to be avoiding the issues, not punishing him.

Anyway, you've had a lot of good advice, but don't rule out the idea that there may be something else triggering his fits and his inability to self-regulate. Some kids just have quirks which aren't going to be "fixed" by the suggestions in parenting books or other people's experiences. Doesn't mean that something is substantially wrong or that you need therapy forever, but it might be helpful to get some professional advice to customize a plan around what is bringing out his anger and your reaction.

You know your reaction escalates the situation and it goes downhill from there. When we were going through the same stuff (before we knew there was a sensory issue) I asked our pediatrician for help. Actually, I thought I needed parenting classes because I felt so helpless and angry. She recommended play therapy to figure out what was happening and to teach DS better stratagies for dealing with his feelings. We didn't do it, but we probably would have saved 6 months of frusteration if we had. As he got older, his pre-school started noticing some issues, particularly a fine motor delay, and he went to an Occupational Therapist for an evaluation- that is when we started learning that he wasn't just stubborn.

HTH

Stephanie

[o_mom]

Now that I have a minute, I thought I'd expand.

Much of the problems we have I can trace back to my inaction. I know that many times the spiralling behavior starts because I ask DS1 to do something, he doesn't do it and I don't enforce it because I am either nursing or too lazy to get off my rear and do it. Then it becomes repeated requests with increasing anger until I just explode and yell.

For example, he is banging his for and I say "Please keep your fork quiet" or "Don't bang your fork. He doesn't stop, I repeat the request until it become "STOP BANGING YOUR FORK" while grabbing the fork away rudely. If I just remove the fork gently after the first ignored request it is done, I have set the limit and we move on. Not that he is always happy about it, but I don't have the frustration of feeling like he is ignoring me or that I'm not 'doing something' about his behavior.

The more difficult one is when I am nursing and he messes with the baby. I am limited in my ability to enforce it without stopping, finding a safe place to put DS3 and having to listen to DS3 cry because his meal is interrupted. Or, when DS3 is having floor time and they just can't respect his space. Those are the times when I just want to scream because if I move DS1 away, DS2 just takes his place. I have really reevaluated what I consider 'important' to discipline when I'm nursing. Some people would say they are getting away with way too much, but I have found that if I can't enforce a request, there is no point in making it.

I know that I should be reading them books while I nurse and all those wonderful bonding things, but I am working on four years of sleep deprivation here and am just plain tired sometimes.

I can't help much with the tantrums, since we have luckily avoid any major ones so far.

[Piglet]

nak

i am also working on discipline, anger management, etc. i have gotten some good advice from books and a bit from the nanny 911-style shows. currently i am reading "positive discipline for preschoolers" by jane nelson. it is a good starting place because it gives good background on behavior and strategies for dealing with this specific age group. i also check out the forums on gentlechristianmothers (even though i am not all that gentle and definitely not christian, lol). i do agree that a lot comes ffrom kids wanting attention. also, for me, i have to keep reminding myself to lower my expectations - my kids are not the worst ones on the block, lol. in fact, they are some of the best behaved kids, and i know that it is my problem that i am a perfectionist more than anything - not fair to take that out on them! lastly - this worked wonders when ds1 was 4 and ds2 was born - get ds1 to school/playgroup/etc., if he isn't there already. ds1 was so much happier with a place to call his own. it made him feel special and helped him feel more grown up. he got loads of positive attention both at school and at home and i got 3 hours of focussing on ds2 alone. we were all much happier in september, lol!

[saschalicks]

Kelli,
I'm all the pills in the world and yet somehow am still so frustrated by DS1's behavior. Mine is only 3 and thought of 4 being worse makes me throw my hands up in the air and say "I give up". Now that DS2 is interacting it's worse. Last night, granted overtired was the main issue, everything was a tantrum. He wanted to sit at the table w/us, but once at the table he didn't want to be at the table. When I offered to put him down he started kicking and screaming he wanted to be at the table and round and round we went.

My problem is that DH wants to take things away as a lesson, but I don't think that's the answer. I don't think a 3 year old understands that he isn't watching ST b/c he was behaving badly.

I'm looking for answers too and a lot of the pp's actually made so much sense. He needs positive reinforcement. Our DCP is complaining that he won't listen there and I think it's b/c she's not providing enough positivity for him, which makes me really glad he's going to Preschool next week. DS1 is a really smart precocious boy who needs a lot of stimulation. That's the other thing I recommend, make sure your DS1 is getting brain time. Full on concentrated think time. He needs it. DS1 and I have started those preschool books you find at Staples for teachers. He loves it. I'm coming up w/more "projects" for him every day.

GL to you and all of us dealing w/this. I just think that we have to be easier on ourselves. Being a parent is not an easy job!

[DrSally]

Kelli, I'm so sorry this is going on! You did a wonderful job describing the situation, but it's still hard when we're not there to know all the details. I can say I know what it's like to feel that strong reaction to a toddler's tantrums. One thing I think is that if you are feeling that much anger, it is probably reflective of what Luke is feeling. He wants to "throw you out" and you feel like "dropping him off at the curb". KWIM? Your feelings give you a clue as to what he is feeling. Does there seem to be any pattern to what makes him tantrum. I know toddlers can throw tantrums for any reason, but you mentioned it happens when you're nursing DS. Does it seem to be for attention? I think you're very right about moving bedtime up, he may be crazy overtired, I don't know. Just wanted to give you lots of support. Clearly, you know this is getting bad and are very open to getting help. Have you thought about going to a professional just to see what they say? I'm not saying things are really abnormal, it just may help to have someone else lay eyes on the situation and offer targeted suggestions. Books are good, but advice targeted to the indiv. situation is even more effective.

[VClute]

I have NO guidance to offer. But I want you to know you're not alone. I get the craziest when he hurts the baby, too. And I'll just say that the things I say to him are not the loving mommy things that one cross-stitches onto a pillow. I'm downright hateful and spiteful when I get worked up. I am PRAYING for patience - and the return to preschool!

Amy in NC
mom to Dixon, born 2/14/05
...and Abigail Rose, born 4/7/07

[dotgirl]

Wow - I can't imagine how frustrated you must be - trying deal with a newbie and a willful four year old.

Our DS is about the same age as yours, and also quite willful. (We try to say "willful" or "spirited" because words like "ludicrously loud" and "some sort of banshee" might hurt his feelings).

I think you've got a lot of good advice, and you'll probably have to pick and choose what pieces can/will work for you. I don't believe there's a "right" way to discipline - just the way that's right for you.

That being said, I will say that we've used "1, 2, 3, Magic" with an enormous amount of success. We started when DS was 2, and it took about a week for him to really "get" the concept, but it's worked ever since.

Very high-level overview - it works like this:
"Riley, please stop banging your fork on your plate."
30 seconds later - "Riley, that's 1 - Please stop banging your fork on your plate."
30 seconds later - "Riley, that's 2 - Please stop banging your fork on your plate."
30 seconds later - "Riley, that's 3 - Time out."

It's important to note that we do not have to stop what we're doing ot put him in timeout - he goes to the timeout spot on his own (useful if you're nursing, I suspect).

We've been doing it for almost 2 years, and he has maybe one time out every other week. We often get to 1, and we rarely get to 2.

I was at wit's end before someone on this board suggested the book - we bought it and read it, and started on it the very next weekend. You might take a look at it and see if it has any solutions that could work for you.

Good luck!

[niccig]

Like everyone else who replied, I totally understand your post. I know that as the adult I should remain calm and in control, and when I do the situation is diffused, but so often I lose it and then there's a huge blow up, he's upset, I'm upset, you all know the story.

I did a parenting workshop on "how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" - and I'm definitely doing it again as DS gets older. A lot of the strategies I can't use with DS as he's too young, but it has helped some. The other useful strategy I've used is from "parenting the strong-willed child", you spend time playing with your child, but you just say what they are doing 'now you're putting the yellow block on the red block" "wow you're stacking the blocks so high" etc. DS loved that I was really paying attention to what he was doing, and I felt much more connected to him. You work you're way up to doing it throughout the day. I have trouble with giving positive attention, and when I remember to do this strategy, I think it helps.

My other strategy is to work out what are my triggers. If I'm tired or in a hurry, I have zero patience. I'm a night owl, and DH can tell how much sleep I got, by how I interact with DS at breakfast. I now have a set bedtime for myself, so DS doesn't suffer the next day. I know it's easier said than done, but if there's any chance to grab time for yourself to sleep, do it. I've also bullied DH into getting the house more organized and cleaned. He hates it, but he's not the one who deals with DS pouring left-over soda onto the floor because Daddy was too lazy to put it away the night before. I'm really disorganized at heart, so this has been difficult, but having things put away and know where to find them, has eased the chaoticness in the house.

I don't know if any of this helps. Just know, that you're not a bad mother and that if someone tells you they never feel this way, they are either dead, a saint or lying :P

[Momof3Labs]

Just a few quick things that come to mind - you may or may not have already tried these. DS1 can be enormously frustrating sometimes, and then others, he is so helpful and agreeable that I want to clone him! I know that this is a huge YMMV but maybe something in here will be worth trying.

A few things that really help for us --

Time outs. They aren't just for him, they are also for me until I can regroup and deal calmly with the situation. Forget 1-2-3 time out, when I feel close to losing it, he is sent straight to time out (his bedroom). Sometimes he tantrums up there, sometimes he doesn't.

Consistency. When I ask and ask for something and don't follow through, he knows it. And things deteriorate quickly. But when I follow through with our discipline method (1-2-3 Magic) by counting "1" after the first request to stop/start something, he figures out that mommy isn't messing around.

Lots of praise. I talk about how DS1 is my big helper, and there are so many things that he can do to help me now that he's big. And it makes things so much easier for me when he does help. He can feed the dog all by himself (and she loves when he feeds her - we can see how her trust in him has built - we tell him this), he can help keep Logan out of trouble, he can push the kiddie cart at the grocery store filled with my groceries, he can help me load groceries from the cart onto the belt, he can read a story to Logan while I pee in privacy, etc. etc. etc. It blows my mind how much he WANTS to help now compared to even a month or so ago!

Special treats. When I put DS2 down for a nap or bedtime (yes, involves nursing), DS1 gets to pick between two privelages - TV or computer (internet) time. He loves both and doesn't get much of either, and the deal is that he gets these privelages as long as it keeps him quiet while I put DS2 down.

[fauve01]

I would love to see the thread from MDC if you can post it!! thanks.

:-)

[lizajane]

ditto 1, 2, 3 magic. we don't actually even use the "official" method- by which i mean i didn't read the book. but we use the no-emotion 1, 2, 3 and it is incredible with schuyler. by "2" he is running to me yelling, "i am coming!" if i have asked him to stop what he is doing and come inside, to the car, etc etc.

because i have two kids, i modify to, "schuyler 1... schuyler 2..." and, of course, "dylan 1... dylan 2..."

[dogmom]

Sometimes I joke with my DH that I wished we lived back in the days when you just smacked a child that acted like that.

No, I don't hit my child, or paddle, never have. But I do feel that the expectations of parenting now are a bit much. We are never supposed to show anger because the kids will just learn are behavior and mirror it back. (Or course I do sometimes, and my DS picks it up right away. He has taken to telling me how "frustrated" I make him feel. Which is what I tell him at times to explain to him why I'm acting mad.) We are supposed to be versed in many discipline techniques, all slightly different. (1-2-3 magic, simple time outs, positive reenforcement, etc.) I feel like it's hard to just pick one and stick to it because it doesn't always work, and then I feel like I'm giving mixed messages. Yes, I give in when I'm shouldn't because I'm tired, busy, etc.

I've decided the best training for parenting was my dogs. (Of course I have poorly trained dogs, so this does not bode well for my children.) But a trainer once told me the dog's only job 24x7 is to figure me out. Kids are the same. All they really need to do is think about how to figure us out, and we got other things on our plate. And if they get away with something once, they will try about 100 more times cause, heh, it's not like they got a job to go to.

I have to remind myself that parently was a much more relaxed, not as all consuming process when I was young (60-70's here) and I, along with most of my peers, are doing well. Sure, there are things I cringe at with when my DS does. Sure, I feel like every other kids is better behaived than mine at times. Sure, I feel like no other mother is using the "stern voice" as often in the supermarket as I do. But none of that is true. I realize it's mostly my insecurity as a parent taking over. Luckily my DH talks me down a lot when I get like this. (On the plus side my neurosis about my parenting skills has replaced my younger self's neurosis about weight, so he never hears me ask, "am I fat?")

Luckily my experience as a nurse helps a lot. I know even when a patient is confused and hits/punches/kicks me my first instict is to (1) get pissed off and (2) hit them back. I do neither, but I feel the urge. So I'm not suprised when I feel overwhelmed and want to scream/shake my DS or something similar. I never hit or shake, sometimes a yell too much. (I did yank and arm to hard twice, which made me feel like crap.) Which is much better than a lot of people do. I think we paint ourselves into a corner as mothers and parents with such high expectations and we all need to be more realistic.

Jeanne
Mom to Harvey
1/16/03
& Eve 6/18/06

[dogmom]

oops

[kep]

Okay, tonight went better. We started our bedtime routine even earlier, and I had Joey asleep and Luke in bed with lights out by 7:15. Of course, Joey woke up at 8 and Luke didn't fall asleep until 8:45, but we're making progress!

We only had one small meltdown, and I was able to difuse it fairly quickly. I put him in time out in his room, and he yelled and was pretty pissed for about 5 minutes. I stayed in the room with him and kept calm. I kind of randomly asked him at this point if he wanted me to hold him. Shockingly, he said yes, and climbed into my lap. :) I was so suprised. I then suggested we pick out his books for story time, and then we got him into pajamas. He asked for just the shirt part, and I was more than willing to compromise. We read his stories with him sitting in my lap, (Joey was sitting on the floor playing), and afterwards he willingly ran down the hall to brush his teeth and go potty.

He came back, we goodnighted and hugged, and then he stayed happily in his bed quietly playing until I could come back and lay down with him. Now it's 9ish, and everyone's asleep. Thank goodness!

Edited to remove pictures.


Kelli

Proud Mommy to Lukey (2003). Weaned after 3 years of happy nursing!
And Mommy to our newest baby, Joseph, born 3 days after Christmas.

[Momof3Labs]

I cannot WAIT until I can count DS2!! I catch myself starting to do it, then realize that he won't know or care anyways!

[Wife_and_mommy]

Me, too.

One thing that make life moons better for us is for me to have time away. I schedule time away and also take it spontaneously when we've had a rough day.

I'm also about to sign DD up for a local high school's preschool. The oppty fell in my lap as I'd planned on homeschooling but I'd be crazy not to take 15 hours/week of childcare for $40/month. I'll be a better mother to both my dc's while dd has fun.

I'm also a night owl who struggles to go to bed before 11:30 each night. I *love* having the quiet time while everyone's sleeping but come next day, everyone's miserable. DS has been having sleep issues off and on too so throw in nightwakings and I'm fried.

You are definitely not alone. I too believe it's a deep dark secret of parenthood.

ETA: It took me hours to write this post so I was late but I'm glad things were good for you tonight! This morning was really rough w/ DS but tonight was heavenly for us too. And I'm going out tomorrow night--woohoo.



I love them most when they are sleeping.--Me
http://b4.lilypie.com/HSUwm4.png http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_gold_12m.gif

http://b2.lilypie.com/pXphm4.png http://www.gynosaur.com/assets/ribbons/ribbon_emerald_18m.gif

[gatorsmom]

Oh, they are so beautiful!! I can't believe that they could ever possibly be naughty! (insert evil grin)

Lisa
Mom to Gator July 2003
And Cha-Cha July 2005
and surprise! twins due 11/07!

[bubbaray]

I've only scanned the other posts, but, WOW, could I have written your post! DD#1 is driving me to the brink most days now. She really lulled me into a sense of "I can do this 2 children thing" early on when DD#2 was a newborn, but now that DD#2 is more of a real person, DD#1 is acting out more, particularly when I am confined to my "nursing" chair (which is VERY often). It drives me insane and I snap more than I care to admit. It is a very VERY good thing that DD#1 is still in daycare/preschool b/c, well, I don't know what I would have done if she wasn't.

I have been reading Parenting with Love and Logic and the companion early childhood book and I rather like it. Employing it is another story. We use the 1,2,3 counting idea and also time outs on the naughty step.

But, the drama continues. I swear, DD#1 will be a famous Hollywood actress one day.

Melissa

DD#1: 04/2004

DD#2: 01/2007

[SASM]

No advice here as I am pretty much going through the same thing with a 4.5yo and 2.5 yo. Misery loves company, right?

Just lots of (((((hugs))))) to you! I hope that you get some great advice that i can try to implement as well.

We are going to start "1-2-3 Magic", that is, once I can either get through the book or the DVD without passing out. :( It is an easy read as long as you have the energy to get rhough it ~ same goes for the DVD.

HUGE hugs and good luck!!!

[brittone2]

Glad last night was better.

I know life w/ two is trying!! Very tough. My DS is 3.5 and has started saying some things similar to what your DS is saying ("I will crumple you up and throw you in the trash" kind of stuff when he's angry). While it took me off guard the first few times, I agree w/ the PPs that it is VERY normal, very age-appropriate, and them trying to get out some big feelings.

I know in our case, I sometimes *have* to put DD down. Even when it pains me to do it. I think showing that you can, and you will put your younger down to deal with the older child's issues is important. It is a royal PITB, but if they know you'll consistently enforce things even w/ a sleeping/nursing baby, then hopefully it won't need to be done often. Total pain though.

Have you ever checked out www.gentlechristianmothers.com? Maybe consider trying a comfort/cuddle corner to help him regain control over his emotions and hopefully get him so that he can eventually direct himself to it before he has a meltdown? It is basically like having a coffee date with a friend when you are stressed. You eventually try to get them to the point where they feel themselves starting to get overwhelmed, grouchy, etc. and go *before* they have an outburst, etc. It isn't used punitively like a time out, but rather is way for you to both take a step back and reconnect and turn things positive. They have a sticky at the top of the gentle discipline board about the comfort corner.

WIth the tantrums, I totally hear you. I get sucked into it emotionally too at times. Something I read once (I think at the GCM site) is that you don't have to ride the waves of their emotions. It is really hard to get out of that mindset, but a bad day for your kids doesn't have to mean a bad day for you. So, so hard, but when I can remember that tidbit, it helps me a lot. I also recently was flipping through TV late at night and that show "Shalom in the Home" on TLC was on. I only saw about 2 mins, but one clip I loved was that the Rabbi was telling the family that they can't be the thermometer for their family. They have to be the thermostat...staying level, and not riding those ups and downs *with* the child. Same idea. Not easy to avoid doing (oh how I know!!), but I know when I can keep that mindset, it does help me. It is hard to not engage, but in the long run, I think it helps if you can detach from their big feelings.

I also agree w/ the PP that sensory stuff, etc. is something to consider. A lot of kids w/ more intense tantrums can have some sort of sensory issue. It is just something to investigate if you haven't already, in the off chance it is a trigger. Ditto the suggestion about figuring out whether there's a connection to fatigue, diet (eating artificial color, msg, etc.), hunger (I get very grumpy when my blood sugar is low), etc.

I think many of us have felt similar feelings to what you are describing.

[KBecks]

I'll offer one thought. It is OK to fail. Please don't feel stressed about being successful 100% of the time. You will be setting yourself up for constant disappointment, and you'll have tons of stress.

Re-evaluate what is a good day. Understand that every day, you will probably have moments that are difficult, and that's NORMAL. Having struggles in no way means you are doing badly or that he is doing badly, it's just part of growing up.

And, give lots of hugs and kisses and praise. Try to have fun as much as you can, really. And try to not complain or focus on the negative, do what you can to adjust your outlook to be as positive as you can. I hope you find joy (even moments of joy) that you can use to get you through the tough spots.

ETA: Try not to evaluate how it's going and label your days, you know - today was a good day, today was a bad day, etc. etc. I think less evaluation of his and your performance might help you relax.

Good luck!

[Raidra]

Here's the thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=394579

I'm not sure if you need to be a member to see that forum or not.

[millerpjm]

Stephanie,

Not to hijack the thread, but can you explain what you mean by a sensory issue? What you said about the shoes kind of struck a chord, and I'm wondering about it TIA!

This post has come at a perfect time...I am also having issues with my 4 year old DS and I'm trying to come up with something new. 1,2,3 Magis isn't working so well anymore (we've been doing it over a year and a half). I also think the positive reinforcement idea is great...

Thank you to all the PP...

Jen

[KarenNYC]

I honestly could have written your post - word for word. I wish I had advice but I am in the middle of it as well and I have seriously had it and I want to run away from home some times.

how is it possible for a 4 year old to make us this miserable? he can be so loving and wonderful one minute and so outright nasty the next. He is seriously driving me insane and it sounds like you are dealing with the same stuff.

the not listening, the pushing/hitting his sister for no reason, the rudeness, hitting/kicking when he does not get his way and the yelling at me. I am honestly feeling done.

In the grand scheme of things - I know he is not really all that bad but to me - I've had it. No one told me it would be this hard and I feel the rewards are dwindling. I feel like I am raising a little monster (actually the term I'd use is more like @$$hole - is that wrong to say about your own child???).

Don't get me wrong I do love him but he is making it really hard for me to see that these days. we go for days where things are fine and then the flood gates open and it is NO - Shut Up - tantrums and hitting/kicking if we tell him no or stop. and the not listening makes me insane.

sorry this turned into a bit of a rnat but at least we are not alone. if you find something that works - let us know! I've read book after book and called a therapist and nothing has worked.... I too am worried about6, 8, 10 and beyond....

uhg - it never ends...........

[daisymommy]

Oh girlie, you are so not alone in this. Joshua is such a major challenging, strong willed child. Somedays I just don't know how I can go on another day without a weeks long vacation by myself. But I know that won't happen...sigh. I wish I could say that I had the answers but I don't. I just wanted you to know that you are NOT a bad mama.

One thing I know for sure though, with Joshua, what he eats plays a MAJOR-MAJOR-MAJOR part in how he acts on a daily basis. PLEASE for your sake and his look at www.Feingold.org It has made an enormous difference in the number of bad days we have around here, until I slip up and let him eat something he shouldn't. Then I pay for it for 3 days until the offending substance is out of his system. For Josh, it seems to be high-fructose-corn-syrup, food dyes, and the preservatives BHA, BHT, and TBQH.

I have also read some books that have helped:
-Raising Your Spirited Child
-The Difficult Child
-Parenting Your Out of Control Child
-123 Magic

And this reward token/behavior chart board, http://www.amazon.com/Melissa-Doug-Magnetic-Responsibility-Chart/dp/B000GKES48
which Target also sells a similar version in their wooden puzzle section, put out by Little Tree. I think it really helps Joshua SEE what he needs to be doing. Even though the majority of the things on it are chores, the positive reinforcement is really wonderful for him. It also keeps him busy, and feeling like he is contributing to things around here. I make sure that about once every 1-2 hours he can do something that he gets to put on a token for, for more positive reinforcement. You can also write on the blank tiles for your own ideas such as: No arguing or screaming, talking nicely, sharing, etc.
If he has had a good week (earned at least 50% of his tokens) we go someplace fun, or he gets a small prize like a Matchbox car.

Hope this helps!
Sending peace your way!

[C99]

"I should remain (on the outside) cool, calm, and collected while gently guiding my child through the ups and downs of his day."

Where does it say that?

I have a tough 4-year-old as well. I can relate to a lot of your post. I have to say that I am somewhat relieved that other people's kids talk about throwing their parent/sibling out the window or in the garbage. I seriously thought my kid was the only one!

I have a couple of thoughts, although they are kind of disjointed.

Four was worse than three, definitely. I thought tantrums would end at age 2, but it's more like he just has more stamina now. I agree with a PP who said that misbehavior comes in cycles. I've found that to be true as well. We're rounding the corner toward age 5 and things are calming down, but I anticipate that 5 might be rocky for awhile.

I also agree w/ a PP who said that sibling issues can affect tantrums. I noticed that every time DD would hit a developmental milestone (crawling, sitting up, standing, cruising, talking), DS1 would act out. Not only was she was invading his space (toys), she was getting lots of positive attention.

I have also found that DS1 gets crankier, more irrational and most likely to act out when he is hungry/tired, or some combination thereof. We have had our worst temper tantrums over dinner. These are particularly frustrating to me as I've just spent 45 minutes trying to get it ready and then we sit down to eat and DS1 pitches a fit because he doesn't like what we're having (even though he asked for it), there are green beans on his plate and he didn't ask for them, he wanted to set the table, fill-in-the-blank. If he just stopped complaining and ate something, none of this would matter!

And a note on anger...I think that kids can make you nuts and even very even-keeled people will be stretched to the limit with a demanding, willful preschooler or toddler as your daily companion. I figured out that I was off-the-hook angry all the time when DD was about a year old and went on anti-depressants for what was diagnosed as PPD, manifesting itself as anger/anxiety. I didn't screw around this time and started taking Zoloft at 8 weeks post-partum. It was a good move, because I am much less likely to get irrationally angry at my 4-year-old (or 2-year-old), even when they're pressing my buttons or hurting each other.

[hellokitty]

Kelli,

I can identify with what you are going through so much. My kids are only 18 mo apart, I remember feeling so out of control during the first six months that my youngest son was born, b/c my older son was not listening at all, and since I was constantly nursing my youngest son, he would wait until I was nursing to get into mischief.

Things have gotten a little bit better, but I now think that my oldest son has some sensory intergration issues, and that has made disciplining issue extra frustrating, b/c he is the type of kid that will go into 30 min+ tantrums if he is not treated delicately. The suggestions that the ladies here have shared are wonderful.

I am subbing to this thread, b/c I am loving the ideas and as weird as it sounds, I'm glad to know I am not the only one who struggles with this. FTR, my parents had very low tolerance for any misbehavior of my siblings and myself when we were children (we were actually exceptionally well behaved children), and sometimes I think my rage stems from that. My mom would just fly off the handle and start screaming at us and chasing us with a duster to spank us with. So, I think part of me is reacting like my mother did (well I don't chase my kids around with a duster to spank them with, lol), and I'm trying to break out of that. I already subscribe to the idea of AP, but the rage has been my biggest struggle and I think part of it is b/c I was brought up on it, so it is my gut reaction.

[MamaKath]

I didn't make it through all the responses yet, but wanted to quickly respond.

First, you are NOT alone!!! All mom's I have ever met have gone through similar emotions and loss of control at some point. Some are quicker to admit it than others and certainly you have gotten quite a bit of support on that front here.

Second- tantrums. A few of the posters mention kids with sensory issues and tantrums, someone also asked for an explanation of this. I have a great deal of experience on this front as I was one and I have one(or two). ;-) Kids who seem to have supposedly "untriggered" tantrums are often very sensative to things in their environment like tastes, odors, textures, sounds, the way things feel to them, etc that challenge their 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling). They may also have problems with their sense of balance or sense of spatial relations. Often as parents we don't realize that they have been facing challenges with each thing all day because it has bombarded their senses, and just at that point something sends them over the edge. They then can't seem to get it together and go COMPLETELY off the deep end. Their are tons of things that help them and a few great books that explain this further so if it is something that sounds familiar a good place to start is Carol Stock Kranowitz's "The Out-of-Sync Child" and "The Out-of-Sync Child Has Fun". The biggest suggestion I have gotten from the OT's we have dealt with as well as conferences and books is getting kids outside to play everyday for about an hour.

Hang in there Kelli, all stages change and get different just as we get a handle on them. You are most certainly not alone though!!!