Video about importance of 5 pt. harness and seat belt failure - and a question for Julie

[yellowdogmom]

Forgive me if this has been posted before, but my friend from another board just shared this with me: (it is a really sad tear jerker, so if you read from work you may want to wait until home...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azgBhZfcqaQ

Julie, because of this I'm now really concerned about mt DH's car - 1998 Toyota RAV4. When DS arrived we ordered the anchor pieces from the dealership, but then they decided that they couldn't be installed. We really didn't question it too much, but maybe we should have. Is there any way we can know for sure that lower anchors can't be retro-fitted into the 1998 RAV4 (4 door)? DH is due for a new car once we pay mine off in a year, but I'm starting to think that we should do it sooner than later. Or am I just having an emotional knee-jerk reaction?

ETA: The next seat for DH's car will be a Radian after he outgrows the Roundabout - and I'm seeing from another post that it performs better without the tether??? OK, now I'm even more confused about what to think and whether or not I should be worried.

:) Kristin
Mom to Theo, born 1/12/2004 in Korea ~ home forever 7/6/2004
and Morgan the yellow lab

[Joolsplus2]

(deeeeep breath) You're doing fine :).

No, you can't have lower anchors installed in a Toyota (a couple newer Audis and VW's are it). Seatbelts ARE plenty safe. The Radian performs 'very well' without a top tether, definitely not better than with a top tether...it's just a great option if you don't have a top tether.

'Bubbaray' posted a great post yesterday about RAV-4 top tether anchors, I'll see if I can find it in my favorites and link you to it (in the car-seats board).

It's really terrible, what happened to that little boy and his family...I'm so glad his mother has the strength to try to help keep other kids safe. Just be sure your seat is always buckled, harness is always buckled, etc, and everything should be fine :)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[yellowdogmom]

Thanks Julie, I knew you'd have some calming words to talk me down off the ledge ;)

I agree about the strength of that mom - she could use all of her energy focusing on anger at all sorts of different entities that may have played a part in the horrible accident, and instead she focuses on trying to educate others - truly amazing strength and grace.

Kind of OT: Do you happen to know if there are any hybrid vehicles that have center LATCH connectors? DH and I are set on getting a hybrid as his next vehicle and I'd really love to use LATCH in the center since DS will be our one and only (at least for the forseeable future) - and thanks to your great advice on my other thread he's happily in the center in both cars.

ETA: thanks, Julie, I found the thread via search and posted over there. And I see that the video has made a couple of rounds over there, sorry to be redundant!

:) Kristin
Mom to Theo, born 1/12/2004 in Korea ~ home forever 7/6/2004
and Morgan the yellow lab

[Joolsplus2]

Oh, redund away, we can never have too much of a good thing.

Why, yes, I DO happen to know a hybrid with middle connectors :). As long as you use a Britax or Radian, you can put it in the middle of a Ford Escape Hybrid. I have one, so I know, lol. It's a peppy little car... I don't like it quite as much as my old CR-V, but it's fine. The other hybrids still don't have their acts together (Japanese cars are slower to the starting line with putting LATCH or even allowing center LATCH usage :P )


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[avd3875]

Hi Kristin,

The Radian can be installed very, very tightly in the center of the 1998 RAV4. I'm in the same position as you, wishing my car could be retrofitted to add a tether anchor. We've got two Radians in two RAV4s and both seem to be "rock solid" installations with just the center lap belt. I haven't tried an outboard position, and probably won't unless we have a second - but the jury is still out on that!

[yellowdogmom]

Thanks Annemarie! It sounds like we are in the exact same position. I posted on the thread that Julie mentioned...did you ever get anywhere asking again about the tether anchors at your dealership? I'm feeling a little more sane about it today, but I still would feel so much better tethering.

I'm really jazzed up for the Radian, but DS's legs are sprouting now...so I need to keep waiting for him to outgrow the Roundabout ;)

:) Kristin
Mom to Theo, born 1/12/2004 in Korea ~ home forever 7/6/2004
and Morgan the yellow lab

[linda_loo]

Julie - may I ask you some clarification about 5-point preference (as I continue to explain to dh why we needed to spend $500 on our latest seats). IIUC, the little boy in the video died because his seatbelt became unlatched. We were talking about this on another board... the point was made that had the child been in a 5-point booster that was installed with a seat belt, and it became unlatched, he would have still been in peril. I am assuming that the seat would have provided some protection to him, but he would still have been thrown forward. I guess the question (in that discussion) was that the video is perhaps a little misleading. I mean, IIUC the problem with the belt connecting, not that he was in a 3-point.

Not that I wish to argue the point, I agree that 5-point is better... just trying to clarify the problem that was presented in the video.

Additionally, what are the (scientific, documented, etc - - - dh is an engineer and likes to have these kinds of answers) reasons why a 5-point are safer?

TIA!

[Joolsplus2]

In a frontal crash, the three points of the lap/shoulder belt are fine, they really do a pretty good job (when they work, obviously, which, yes, they mostly do). But imagine a high speed rollover after a T-bone... the 5 point harness holds you in on both sides, keeps the body and head from slamming towards the window/door/oncoming bumper....that's why racecar drivers and pilots use 5 pt harnesses, and why Volvo has been trying to design a user-friendly four point (no crotch strap) for the general market. On the other hand, side curtain airbags do a good job making up for the only three points of body protection the lap/shoulderbelt provides, so if you have side curtain airbags (that deploy properly, mostly they do, rarely they don't), then perhaps a 5 pt harness isn't so critical.

It's easy to lose the point of her video that top tethers are also important... as many connections as we can get between the child and the car, the better odds we have of not ALL of them failing. A child contained in a five point harness with a top tether in use will probably stay fairly contained even if the seatbelt fails. (There needs to be more testing done on LATCH *and* seatbelts, one as a backup... until it's approved, I can't endorse that at all, there may even be good reasons they both aren't recommended at the same time, I don't know).

Of course, her older dd also lived, with her booster seat misused (headrest too low, extra foam added to the seat)... that's a ringing endorsement of boosters too.

The point is, to survive a crash best, you need to be as closely coupled/attached to the car as possible, so that the car will hold you in place and absorb the most possible energy from the crash...the more points of connection that have to fail, the less likely they are to fail.

What might come out of this whole thing is a re-evalutation of seatbelts... but who knows.

For a kid who's over age 5 and 40ish pounds (preferably bigger, I know a lot of kids well over age 5 who do NOT sit safely in seatbelts and are NOT safe in boosters :( ), who can sit properly in the seatbelt/booster, then a booster still IS a safe choice (preferably one with side impact protection... cars generally perform poorly in side impacts, though they are getting airbags and getting more protective).

Phew...did I say anything helpful?

:D


Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx

[linda_loo]

You said many very helpful things. Thank you so much.

This whole thing kind of reminds me of the list of infant feeding recommendations by WHO. 1) mother's milk, 2) expressed mother's milk, 3) donated mother's milk, 4) formula.

1) tethered 5-point booster, installed via LATCH or seatbelt, 2) ... etc., etc., 4) 3-point booster with side protection, 5) 3-point booster w/o side protection.

;)

[tjham]

>You said many very helpful things. Thank you so much.
>
>This whole thing kind of reminds me of the list of infant
>feeding recommendations by WHO. 1) mother's milk, 2)
>expressed mother's milk, 3) donated mother's milk, 4)
>formula.
>
>1) tethered 5-point booster, installed via LATCH or seatbelt,
>2) ... etc., etc., 4) 3-point booster with side protection, 5)
>3-point booster w/o side protection.
>
>;)

Uh, don't mean to be dense here, but what does the "etc., etc." stand for?

[linda_loo]

eh, that's just my way of skipping over a few of those answers. i really don't know what julie's opinion of what would be 2nd best and 3rd best.

my point was that i am seeing that there is a way to look at seats that indicated the most-safe situation down to the least-safe. kind of like the infant feeding one.

[Joolsplus2]

LOL, yeah (etc etc is what you'll get to later down the line).

Hmmmm...wanna guess how long I brestfe(e)d my kids? (6 months shy of what WHO recommends so far, I'm hoping for longer with Leah, lol)

:)
Julie CPS Tech and mom to 3 in seats
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbum/SarahMA.aspx