Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

[friedmana1]

I didn't want this to get lost in one of ther other threads, so I am putting it here.

Thank you so very, very much. Shannon, Sarah, Kathy, etc - all of you who have been so open and forthright about these sexual issues. It is so wonderful to see that so many of us have had the same problems. Frankly, it has not been easy on this end either, and has created a huge strain with DH. For a while, until I started reading some of the threads here, I was beginning to think that there was something seriously wrong with me, and that I was abnormal for feeling this way. Then, I read some of the threads over the last few months, and realized that I was not alone. What a relief!!! It has gotten better and we have tried a lot of things - alcohol, massage, being on top (loved that band-aid reference mamahill!!! - my dh says the same thing - he's rather me cause the pain, then cause it for me).

But that is not what this not is about. It's just to thank all of you for being so candid and open. These are truly sensitive issues, and just judging on the number of people that read these threads, as opposed to the number of people that post, we can see that so many people are being helped! So for all of the "closet" readers of these threads, I thank you from the bottom of our hearts!

Aimee
Mother to Leah 10/26/02

[mamahill]

hehe, a friend of mine commented, "Did you see how many people have viewed it but not responded? Does that make you feel weird?" Ah no - I was raised to ask questions about everything (do NOT watch movies with me). When we'd go to Disneyland my parents would sit in the back of whatever ride, "So we can make out," my dad would say. We'd always say "eeeeeew" and they wouldn't really, but it was always nice to know my parents liked each other. I'm lucky to have married someone who is equally open about it. I figure the more open I am, the better able I can fix things. I joke that my life is an open book, and I'm aiming for the best-seller list... :)

[KathyO]

>I joke that my life is an open book, and I'm aiming for the best-seller list... :)

Long before there was a movie based on this exact idea, my old roomie used to say that she liked to live her life as if it were being broadcast on a 24-hour cable channel. "I don't do anything I'm ashamed of people knowing about... but there's no harm in keeping the ratings up!!!"

Cheers,

KathyO

[friedmana1]

If only our politicians would think the same way...

Aimee
Mother to Leah 10/26/02

[flagger]

I am probably going to step on some toes, but this is NOT a private forum. Since it was mentioned in a thread in the Lounge, I and Ms. Flagger have been scanning through the MommyFit board from time to time.

From a man's point of view, I just want you to know that the threads have helped us (her and me) realise we are not the only one going through these Lackanookie (that is a Hawaiian island right) issues. Now she will say "But you got some last Saturday and last night", but it is wired into our psyche to still want the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil again and again.

I told her last night that I am very concerned with her associating pain with the act and she told me she appreciated me being gentle and not like a teenager all over again. Lubrication has been very helpful and as I mentioned to Sarah her little adult tupperware party did wonders for putting her in the mood. Also, Cocoa and I are taking an infant massage class and I am using those techniques with Ms. Flagger as well.

We have reversed roles here since I am the SAHD. There are many times when sleep does appeal more to me than sex, but honestly there is another big stumbling block and that is the fear of getting pregnant with a nearly five month old. She cannot do hormone therapy and insurance does not cover an IUD so the contraception falls to me and I have never been that comfortable with condoms. But I am learning to be. She did tell me last night that I was the one thinking and analyzing about it far too much.

And I am sorry to step on any toes and make anyone uncomfortable by this post but it does take two to tango and these posts have helped US as well to know we are not ALONE.

And yes I looked it up (Hoo-Ah is definitely an AMA/ACOG recognised medical term). ;)

Thanks.

[JulieL]

One of my favorite anology that has seemingly been used around me in discussions a whole lot is this. We go through seasons in our lives. This of course goes for every aspect. In encouragement and frienships can we make it through the difficult times, those dry/dark/frustrating seasons. I am glad these sensitive subjects have been able to keep an adult attitude and haven't spiraled downward (as far as keeping them clean and to the point). I hope we can continue these "secret whispers"

[sntm]

Well, actually, I am pretty offended that you read those posts. Mrs. Flagger looking at them is quite another thing altogether and I would have been happy to discuss woman to woman any issues she had.

No these are not private forums, but I stupidly thought that I could trust the people on the board to respect a desire for a modicum of privacy on a sensitive issue. I don't have any female friends with babies with which to talk about these issues so I didn't really have many other options.

I welcome men on these boards, but y'all need to show some respect to the women by not reading posts specifically marked for mom's only! it was very rude.

shannon
not-even-pregnant-yet-overachiever
trying-to-conceive :)
PREGNANT! EDD 6/9/03
mama to Jack 6/6/03

[JulieL]

I was equally frustrated that Mr. Flagger posted on this. I know that you Mr. Flagger are on these boards all the time. And the number of posts you have since you became a member proves that. But you DID over step your bounderies. Just because you are a SAHD doesn't mean that you can buddy up with us Mom's on every level. Your actions on these boards recently show that you don't think of anyone else but yourself or your own opinion. I do appreciate some of you posts but just take a moment and ask yourself, do I have to put my two cents in right now? Your actions have offended some of us and I would hope in the future you would think a little more about them.

[flagger]

Frankly I don't give a d*mn who is offended. Someone is just embarrassed to know that there are in fact men who read these boards. Were you also offended when mamahill shared the thread with her husband and he made the recommendation he did? These are NOT private forums. Anything you post on a public website can be read by ANYONE. Want a place where women only can discuss these issues? Go start one and invite only women to join. I never posted because I wanted to buddy-up with any of the mom's. I know who are my friends here and who are my enemies. Situations like these are exactly why I have never used my daughter's real name anywhere online. The web is open to anyone with a computer, internet connection and can search Google.com

It was real mature for someone to edit her posts to remove anything said after the fact. The question never said anything about men stay out. Ms. Flagger doesn't have the time I do to scan message boards. I print out the threads that are of interest to both of us and we share them.

It takes both of us being aware of each other's feelings and needs to make intimacy work. The thread was very helpful for us. Just know that there are men who are thankful for the discussions as well.

By the way JulieL, why not follow your own advice and keep some of your nastiness to YOURSELF.

[JulieL]

It would be highly appreciated it you would keep your mouth clean and refrain from cussing.

[stella]

It offends me that he just wants to make sure we know that he's reading. I am frankly not interested in his sex life - just like to compare notes with other mommies about things that are pertinent to us.

[flagger]

Actually I just posted in thanks as that what this thread was about.

[mamahill]

I don't want to ruffle feathers, but I don't think Monsieur Flagger did anything wrong (until he talked about not giving a ...). But the fact is, this IS a public forum. Some people may feel embarassed by certain topics and want limited viewing, but have you seen how many people read this stuff without responding or even identifying themselves (how many of us read for months before posting)? I appreciate that discussion is going on, and perhaps we can take comfort in what anonymity this kind of discussion provides.

That Flagger HAS started posts in the Lounge about reclaiming intimacy and such, shows that him reading these posts wasn't necessarily a peeping-tom mentality, but a true, "What can DW and I do to improve the situation?" However I do have to say that I was hesitant about sticking up for him since I really have a hard time with strong language.

Anyway, I'm not trying to take sides, but the fact is people ARE reading. And I know that when Ainsleigh was a couple months old, DH actually began his own research. I would feel sad if someone told him he wasn't wanted, especially when he was doing research in an effort to discover ways of making me... happy.

Just my thoughts. Perhaps we should start a "relations after birth" yahoo group? :)

[jojo2324]

I agree...I may not be overly comfortable knowing the ins and outs of Flagger's contraceptive likes and dislikes, but it is refreshing to know that maybe our guys DO care about more than themselves, which is how I tend to feel with certain situations between me and my DH. And maybe that means I need to think about more than myself during those same situations.

And while the question was labeled "moms-only," I don't think that we can expect any real privacy here. Hundreds of people have looked at that thread, and I would rather Flagger respond than some weirdo guy peeping in.

[KathyO]

Ditto, ditto and ditto. All these forums (fora?) are findable and viewable by anyone on the web; I first stumbled onto them in the early days of my car-seat research jag.

Mr. Flagger speaks of his "friends" and "enemies" on this board - this approach makes me uncomfortable, and I am really disappointed by folks who seem eager to up the ante to snarkiness and fingerpointing at a moment's notice, but I don't see why (or how) we should limit any discussion in a public forum to one gender or another. Heck, I could be a guy all along and nobody here would know. And besides, I am a huge fan of real communication between the sexes. Postnatal intimacy is one of the areas where we could use more of it.

I'm sorry that feelings were hurt, and I loathe the idea of "taking sides", but lack of privacy is built into the structure of public places like this.

And Sarah, I think it's really sweet that your DH went on his own research trip. I'm curious - did he come back with any particular insights that can be repeated?

KathyO

[mamahill]

>I'm curious - did he come back with any
>particular insights that can be repeated?
>
Mostly he just realized that when I would say, "I'm tired," it actually meant that and not, "I'm not attracted to you anymore." He definitely began helping with the housework a lot more and insisting that I go out for an hour or so on my own. He also bought a book on massage because he knew that was my idea of a good time. Any other insights are between me and the mister;).

[friedmana1]

Yikes! I hope that I didn't start another round of fighting with this thread! Listen, shannon, julie - I know that the posts in the latest threads had a sense of intimacy with the "female-only" topic of MommyFit. However, everyone makes a great point - Did you see how many people read that those threads?????? Do you really think that those 477 (number on last check) were all women, stumbling into the thread because they were seeking diet advice?? I know that this board is sort of intimate because the people get together on the outside, and we all share such touching parts of our lives, etc...but this is still the internet. The truth is that probably lots of men were reading, but flagger was the only one who admitted it. And he did write to thank all of you, just as I did, for being so open and honest, even though we are on the "WORLD WIDE" web.

Just my thoughts...

Aimee
Mother to Leah 10/26/02

[JulieL]

I guess I should slightly redirect my opinion. It's NOT that he read it that bothers me so much. This is public to all. And if a man wanted to be DaddyFIT I would be completely accepting of that. My problem is that Mr. Flagger doesn't think with his replies. He seems (I do mean seems, maybe he is just chatty) that he has to say something on everything. Friends should be sensitive and he doesn't seem to be sensitive to us female friends on many levels. His arrogance in his word vocabulary is offensive. I like to think of these boards as a kind of pure world. And having friends and enemies is so high school, please! I don't see Mr. Flagger as my enemy at all. I am just asking him to be more sensitive to us. He called Shannon immature for crying out loud! What about his immaturity? So why do you feel the need to invade on this subject??? Reading is different that saying. Although I understand why some women would be squirmish about thinking of a man reading this. He knew he was going to make people feel uncomfortable as he stated and didn't care, what kind of friend is that? Mr. Flagger I ask that you respect us. I will try to respect you opinions as well. It's not the opinion that I don't respect it is the way it was given.

[JulieL]

I do think it is endearing that you take the time for your wife and share things with her that you think she would enjoy or would be helpful. Being a SAHD must come with many enjoyments as well as stigma. I wasn't trying to be nasty to you I just don't respect the fact that you one, cuss and two lash out. I felt Shannon should have support. I am all for intimacy in relationships and hope that in the future you post helpful tips. A relationship between man and woman is very complex. But come on, you knew the tone that post was made in. And you even pointed out you would step on peoples toes, so why do it? I don't see you as an enemy Mr. Flagger, but your tone in your recent comments are concerning. Couldn't you post in a way that wouldn't be intruding to many of us? I guess we see differntly and that is why the world is so interesting. Maybe in the future you could take a man's approach with a touch of women sensitivity.

Edited to say, sorry for my origanal out cry for the buddying up analogy. You can be buddies with us women and should be able to. But the way I meant was you can't see our point from everything. Unfortunately men and women just can't have certain connections because of "uhumm" obvious reasons. I didn't mean that you couldn't be our friend.

[flagger]

Guess what? This ain't church! Unless there has been another virgin birth that I hadn't heard about, it still takes two for the reason we are all here. I never posted to "let people know I was readin", it was genuinely an offer of thanks for having a thread like this. You said it yourself in the "What Wars?" thread. You were pretty nasty in your comments to me, how about following your own advice and keep your nastiness to yourself? If I had to say something on everything, I would have posted in the original thread. However this is where I wanted to give a genuine response of thanks to those who posted.

If I had posted in the original post of Shannon's, I can see where people might get upset. However this was and still is a thank you thread. There was no purient interest in reading the other thread. It was purely informational. I could care less about anyone else's sex life, but certainly what I originally posted in this thread was no more graphic than anything the women have posted in other threads. Yes it was immature of Shannon to get all mad and embarrassed and remove her posts. It changes the logic of the thread to begin with and leaves people who will discover the thread later asking what was this all about. It ruins the context.

As a SAHD, I am in the same boat in that I do not have adults to talk to on a day to day basis. The playgroups I am a part of and the group here are mostly women. When I do have adult contact, we talk about everything and yes S E X.

As I said before in my original post, pain is NOT something I want her to associate with the act of intimacy. Being able to gain knowledge for both her and me is something that has helped us immensely. My needs did not drop off because she had a baby. I am not going through the hormonal shift that she is. Being able to empathise with her and be able to understand from her POV is beneficial to us both. I would much rather go without than have her do it "just for me". To me it is something for both of us to enjoy and experience.

If you want privacy, go start your own place for this kind of talk and only invite women. But remember this is the net, there is no way to know who REALLY is a woman or not and it is beyond reason for anyone to assume that only women are reading threads in here.

There are many of you I consider like a older or younger sister. And ya know just as I learned something from you all, maybe someone who lurks might learn something in this area from a male POV. I didn't feel it was appropriate to respond in the thread in question, but certainly felt like it was appropriate to respond here. I knew it might step on toes, but I am not going to email everyone my thanks. I am a WYSIWYG in real life.

[KathyO]

Interesting. One of the points made in the book "Great Sex for Moms" is that women in general, but mothers more than anyone, need to feel both relaxed and romanced to really get into the intimacy mode. The romanced part, we all know ways of getting to. But as you say, the relaxed part comes when we haven't killed ourselves staying on top of household chores, and have had a few minutes to ourselves, and so on. That was one of the things that was hard for me to articulate, even to myself, until I saw it laid out in print.

Cheers,

KathyO