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shevam
09-25-2003, 11:22 PM
Can anyone tell me the differences between the mom and me AF/HP and the kangaroo korner AFP? I love my KKAFP! But I am liking some of the colors of the mom and me. Is is worth it or should I wait until some more colors of the KKAFP come out?

Thanks!
Sheva

zen_bliss
09-25-2003, 11:50 PM
i like them both. i just got the new design of the mom n me and it fast became the first one i reach for! the fleece is so snuggly, but often just gets too warm here in so. cal; on those days, the hemp feels like it lets her breathe better. when she fusses, getting down in the pouch calms her and puts her to sleep, but with both our bodies' heat she sweats like mad in the fleece. they are both very well made, but i really love that the mom n me has a jean stitch reinforcement at the middle seam; the single seam always made me a little uneasy. i think the M&MC 'rails' don't 'cut 'into the legs on the hip carry as much as the binding on the KKAFP. jen is wonderful to work with and i can say on good authority that she has near infinite patience because she survived me waffling on first my custom color and then deciding the coordinating thread finish! so this doesn't really help i guess -- because they're both nice!

Calmegja
09-27-2003, 04:59 PM
You should check the archives here, because there is a design issue between the two pouches, and Tanya from KK explains what happened...

Momof3Labs
09-28-2003, 11:19 AM
Do you mean the post where Tanya was all mad at Jen from Mom & Me because she designed a similar (but still different) product? That happens all the time - people rarely start from scratch when they design a new product. Why does that create a design "issue"? To me, it is just an "issue" between Tanya and Jen, and someone buying an adjustable pouch should pick the one that they like best or works best for them.

Calmegja
09-28-2003, 05:00 PM
The issue was that in auctions, Jen from Mom and Me was using pictures of the AFP with the tag clearly showing that it was from KKAFP. She was representing the product for sale with a picture of Tanya's work/design, and even acknowledged this for awhile on her website.

That was the design issue, and I found it to be a little more striking than the usual someone has a good idea, so let's copy it type of issue, since the new item was being sold with the images of the original from Tanya's business, tag in view.

But that's just my opinion. ;-)

Momof3Labs
09-28-2003, 10:39 PM
Jessica, I guess that my feeling on this is that there are two sides to every story, and we only got Tanya's side. It doesn't seem fair to Jen to judge her based on Tanya's side of the story, and this doesn't seem to me like an appropriate forum for that whole debate anyways. I've dealt with Jen many times and each and every time, her customer service has been impeccable, and the quality of her items is always top notch.

Besides, I don't think that someone should buy from Tanya because Jen did something "bad" (which we can't be certain of). Buy from Tanya because Kangaroo Korner has something good to offer or buy from Jen because Mom & Me Creations has something good to offer.

heidi_timms
09-29-2003, 01:27 AM
I just got my Mom-and-me hemp pouch in the mail yesterday and I love it already. Mine is a pretty lilac color and DD was so comfy in it today at a picnic! I haven't tried a KKAFP-I'm a newbie to the sling world. I had a ton of questions and Jen was great to work with.

~Heidi
Mom to Kailey Ashlin
4/27/03

Calmegja
09-29-2003, 07:08 AM
I completely agree.

And I've heard that Jen has great customer service, and I suppose I should just keep my mouth shut, but when I read the story, and the fact that she used photos of someone else's work product in her sales, that bothered me. I remember when I was looking for my first pouch, the blurb Jen had on her website at the time, with regards to Tanya. It makes me lean towards Tanya.

You are correct, though, there are two sides to every story. I guess my experience of working with Tanya on 4 slings/pouches has left me massively prejudiced in her favor, so I should just step out of this...

And you are also right that someone should absolutely choose the pouch that works the best for them. ;-)

zen_bliss
09-29-2003, 10:13 AM
to qualify what i am about to say: i have two pouches from each company -- one 'old design' hemp pouch, one new, 2 AFPs (one to fit DH), one ACP. i have had pleasant follow up customer service issues from both; i like both WAHMs; i give them both hats off for what their products do for all of us and for our babes.

that said, i feel like i also have to pipe in on this. it's simply not necessary to make this a 'picking sides' issue. they are in fact, quite different in materials, design, & construction, sufficiently so there's no way one is pillaging sales from the other. they are similarly priced, so there's not an issue of price undercutting. they fit different needs. how about some perspective: do you think ME should be the only snap diapers allowed on the market? should graco be the only stroller available? should we suffer with only the option of the ill-fitting nojo ring sling? only a ford automobile? the adjustable pouch is a natural evolution of the simple pouch. the hemp pouch is a variation on the adjustable pouch. the new design is an evolution of the older design. KWIM?

it is not right that there's been such unwarranted nastiness sent toward jen based on second-hand information. none of us really know the real story, and like any dispute, maybe the firsthand parties don't have real clarity anymore either. did any of the users here actually SEE jen using the KK pouch in her advertising? she's not doing it now. and, honestly, i just don't buy the story that she ever did. i came across her on eBay, i guess it was when she was starting out, she had a pic of herself in the hemp pouch for sale on the auction page and if i recall correctly, she was wearing the KK pouch further down in the 'about me' auction info. the M&MC website in fact gives tanya props up for how using a pouch "changed her life".

when i was pregnant and shopping for a pouch i wanted something breathable, ideally hemp, because it it HOT here. way back when, i asked tanya if she'd be offering lighter-weight natural fabrics and she explained the challenges in designing those. she didn't offer what i needed. period. so i looked elsewhere and was grateful to find what i was looking for. and, i did buy a KKAFP, and later, a KKACP, because those fit other needs. i appreciate that tanya has been brutally frank about the shortcomings of the new cotton pouch. it's useful in a different way from the fleece. and the hemp is useful in different ways from either of those. bottom line, my buying a hemp pouch did not cost KK a sale.

so, i'll speak up for the underdog when it looks like signs of a bigger business trying to steamroll a small one. the M&MC customer service is exceptional, the 'new' redesign of the hemp pouch addressed every quibble i had (even without being able to precisely put my finger on some of what it was i didn't like) with both the older hemp, and with the KK pouches i have. i am delighted by it, and happy to get the word out on it because it is so different from the old style, which i had posted lukewarm reviews about before.

i recommend picking the fabric, fit, & design that most fits your needs and skipping the unreliably reported backstory.

so again, here's my quick rundown, what i think about when i am grabbing one:
KKACP -- easiest in & out, chic fabric offerings, folds smallest in dipe bag, ideal for quick errands; downsides: it will cut into the shoulder & babe's legs after a short time, non-stretchy fabric keeps a 'bubble' shape that does not mold to baby for snuggling
KKAFP -- easy in & out, one row of snaps is easiest to re-snap quickly, snuggly, additional layer of warmth in cool weather, 'just right' stretch memory. downsides: pilling over time (worse on some colors than others), unbearably hot in sun, binding can cut into legs after a while, huge shoulder coverage interferes with movement (folding can help)
M&MC hemp -- breathable & cooler than fleece, trimmest & most comfortable shoulder, reinforced center seam, handmade & individually customised with dye & thread colors, soft rails offer support & do not cut into legs. good all-purpose pouch. downsides: correct sizing is important because of fabric stretch (go smaller than you think), jersey can look too casual (JMO; also depending on dye color)

Calmegja
09-29-2003, 10:21 AM
Okay.

I do have a problem with it but I said that upfront.

I never said that I had a problem with someone else having a fleece pouch. I gave my specifics on why I had a problem with the two, and having said that, I then volunteered that I'm sure I'm biased. I'm curious as to what else I'm supposed to say.

Again, though, by Zen's last post, in that scenario, it means that Tanya is simply making stuff up about MMC, which seems like an odd business strategy, especially because then Jen would have jumped in at some point, and denied it, or shown proof otherwise, correct? Tanya's a businesswoman, with a reputation to protect. Why, exactly, would she make something like that up?

And lest this turn into FB vs. Happy Heiny pocket diaper struggle redux, it's not an issue of the big gun stomping on the little one. I also stated it's not the concept that I have a problem with. It's a misrepresentation of one's product that I have an issue with, but apparently, I'm just picking too much on that. I can acccept that.

Anyways, I'll back off. This thread went too far afield, and I apologize for that.

Momof3Labs
09-29-2003, 10:46 AM
I was trying to decide which pouch to buy when Tanya posted her story about what Jen "did" to her. There was no proof, it was just she said-she said. I thought that it was so unprofessional to write that post - it sounded like sour grapes, and should have been kept in private. It bugs me to see one WAHM bashing another WAHM in public, especially in that way (and I do find that to be an "odd business strategy"). I felt that it was a reflection of Jen's professionalism to *not* respond to such a post (if she even saw it, I'm sure that she did). Because of that, I decided not to order a pouch from Tanya. Instead, I ordered a pouch from Jen, and have ordered several other things from her since then.

So, while you saw that post as casting a negative light on Jen, I felt that it cast a negative light on Tanya. Just another way that there are two sides to every story...

Calmegja
09-29-2003, 10:53 AM
Just goes to reinforce that there are two sides to every story. WHile some may come down on the side of Jen in it, some may come down on Tanya's side. But that's an extrapolation anyways. This isn't that Hatfields and McCoys battling on. Some things we know did happen. Even Zen said she saw the KK pouch in an Ebay ad for MMC (which I consider an odd business practice).

While you saw the post as a negative for Tanya, and a plus that Jen didn't respond, I see it more as silence was acceptance of it from MMC, so I saw it as a negative for MMC.

It's all about your life experiences, I guess, and what your experiences have been... in terms of how something like that shapes your outlook, and what you gravitate towards.

JenBackus
09-29-2003, 11:57 AM
Normally I do not post on any message boards but it seems you are begging for my response.

First here is a direct quote from Tanya taken from a note she must have sent to hundreds of people because my site was slammed from the visitors. Apparently the recipient who forwarded it to me thought I should know.


"Oh, and on her Ebay auctions on her "about me" page, she's modeling the
sling she purchased from me!"


If you want to see the entire note, feel free to email her or I.


The "About Me" page is separate from any auction ad. The picture was there months before I ever started Mom and Me or made and sold a pouch. The thought never occured to me to remove it when doing ads for pouches. I, never at any time, used a picture of her pouch in any listing. If I had, she could have had the listing pulled at any time due to ebay's rules. There were never any listings pulled due to this type of violation. If you would like to check this for yourself, feel free to email ebay for user ID [email protected] which it was then. I have recently changed it to my biz name.

I called Tanya on June 27th of this year to try to remedy the situation between us. I also clarified to her that I never used a pic of her pouch in any ad and apologized to her for having it on the About Me page at all. I explained it was there long before any ebay ads for Mom and Me. I thought maybe she was confused or just so mad that the truth was exaggerated. She agreed that I never used them in the listings. So I asked her to please stop saying this as it was untrue. If you need further proof, feel free to email her to get it. Obviously she was not confused when she wrote the above letter. As soon as I received this, I removed it immediately.

As far as the reference to her on my site. I said our MM fleece pouch as similar to the KK design and then went on to say how ours were different. I did this to give her credit for the original design, which I thought was appropriate at the time. I did not want to hide the fact that our sling was based on her design and also did not want customers to think it was all my idea. I thought our pouch was different enough from hers to stand alone. We trimmed in yarns rather than binding and added rails. I went on to further say that I believed she was the foremost authority on any sling and linked her site telling customers to go there if they could not find what they needed on my site. Again, it was not until I recieved a copy of this note that I realized there was any problem. I removed this part from my site immediately as well. I explained this to her on the phone as well. At this time, we no longer make the MM pouch.

It was never my intention to hurt Tanya in any way. Her pouch changed my life. I simply wanted to help others. I am very sorry and continue to feel badly about the situation with Tanya and myself but after speaking with her, I realize that this will never be remedied, unless we discontinue making a pouch that snaps. I have considered it several times but feel that the damage is already done. If you feel I have wronged Tanya, please DO NOT buy from me.

I never posted to this board or any other where this subject has come up because I do not feel it is the proper forum. And I guess I felt I deserved the backlash. Anyone who really wanted to know the truth asked me directly. I am posting this now because a lot of customers have found us from this forum and if the subject continues to come up, they deserve to hear my side and have a record of it.

Jen Backus
Mom and Me Creations

zen_bliss
09-29-2003, 12:17 PM
i was about to post to clarify some things i said that had been misinterpreted but i see now that jen has posted.

now that we have had one statement from each business owner so each person can make up her own mind, i hope this topic will be considered done, and we can stick to user product reviews.

what's the saying: there are three sides to every story, his side, her side, and what really happened, and there's nobody who can tell that one :)

Calmegja
09-29-2003, 02:02 PM
Absolutely, Zen. ;-)

gravymommy3
09-29-2003, 04:04 PM
Sheva,

If it is in your budget, you might want to get the hemp pouch from Mom and me. I had one and sold it (stupid, stupid, stupid!!!) and got a Zolo and a Sutemi. I am probably going to sell both and re-buy a hemp pouch (even though Hayden is almost two, I really enjoy being able to carry her and not have my arms fall off!!!)

I had a KKFP for about 2 days and it was just plain hot for me (doing the hot flash thing about 4 years too early!) and Hayden did not like it (don't know why but the princess has a mind all her own!) I sent it back and got the M&M hp, which I loved. I am not sure why I got a bug up a certain body part and decided to sell it, but I miss it and am going to get the new style one hopefully soon.

Point being, one of each is a good thing to have.

As far as customer service, everyone's idea of what constitutes "good" customer service varies, but I was much happier with Jen's CS. Tanya seemed a little miffed when I reported that Hayden did not like the pouch.

Good luck.

shevam
09-30-2003, 10:34 PM
I did not mean to start any trouble! I had no idea there were any issues between KK and Mom and Me. I was just interested in the differences b/c I already like one, but the other has some other colors and may be an additional one I'd like to buy. Thank you for all of your responses. Actually I not sure I really got an answer though, to the original question. What are the structural differences, is one more comfortable, lighter, less bulky? Again I already have a KKAFP that I love, just wanted some additional information.

Thanks again for your responses.

Sheva

zen_bliss
10-01-2003, 02:59 AM
hi sheva!

sorry we got so far afield. at the end of my dissertation ;) i wrote a little blurb about each re: bulk, comfort, structure. if there's anything i missed, or anything specific you want to know, ask away!

i thought some comparison pics would help to show the structural differences -- here they are. KKAFP in glacier ice on bottom, M&MC hemp in avocado w/both rails, then on top the KKACP.

i will also post a pic of them folded up. the KKAFP has the most loft and is bulkiest in the bag. unless you unsnap the KKACP, it's close to as bulky as the hemp because of the fold in the fleece snap area (you can see the 'twist' in the fabric in the pic).

zen_bliss
10-01-2003, 03:04 AM
i can only upload 1 per message... sorry for the add'l post!

shevam
10-01-2003, 04:21 AM
Great thank you so much! This is exactly what I was looking for. I don't know how I missed it the first time around. Also, thank you so much for the picture comparision! I definitely think I will be adding a M&MC hemp in the future! Maybe a gift to myself for the holidays! My baby will definitely be big enough for the hip carry by then and I can tell already that the KKAFP will probably cut into his chubby legs. I love how cozy and snuggly it is though, and his little tushie is so cute sticking out! I am very glad to have another option that is smaller in the diaper bag, on the shoulder, a lighter weight (so not as hot), softer on the ends.

Do you have any color suggestions? I was thinking red maybe? My KKAFP is black which is nice b/c it matches everything, I guess I would want something that matches a lot of things, (which the red may not). Also, do you find the M&MC hemp to be snuggly too? And is it not as hot for summer? (I think you answered this but I just wanted to confirm.)

Thank you so much for your very thorough post and pics! It's not often that you get every question answered and get a side by side pics of all the products for comparison!

Sheva

edited for typos

BabyBoo
10-01-2003, 12:34 PM
Hi, I was just wondering what is Mom and Me's website?

Thanks.

Momof3Labs
10-01-2003, 12:56 PM
www.mom-and-me-creations.com

losgallarzos
10-01-2003, 05:45 PM
Kristina Gallarzo in Surprise AZ

Hi Sheva! I have a two and a half year old DD and 7 year old DD twins. I have been a sling nut for a long time!! I currently own and use a Maya Wrap, KKAFP, KKACP, MAMC fleece pouch (she no longer makes these) and one each of the old style and the new style MAMC hemp cotton, Pea In the Pod pouches. I live in the desert of Arizona where on this first day of October it is 105 degrees! Here's the skinny according to me: KKAFP - Awesome, fabric snaps back after being stretched, love the elastic binding. TOO HOT most of the time, especially for newborns and small babies who are all tucked in (including their head). KKACP - Was so excited when I saw this had come out. Thought it would solve my problems with the heat of the fabric of the KKAFP. The fabric was TERRIFIC, but the pocket was too deep for my toddler (and she is only 23 pounds). Her butt sunk down so low (in the hip carry) that her knees were angled up towards her chin. No matter how I tried to adjust her, that pocket was too deep. My friend with a newborn liked it though for that size of baby. It also appeared to be professionally manufactured - a definate turn off for me, a strong supporter of WAHM moms - when you get too big, I want to support somebody else. I want to help the little guy, know what I mean? Also the seam on the KKACP is ripping out (it's only two months old). I know Tanya would immediately repair it, but it's just a pain in the butt, ya know! Tanya has been terrific with customer service and is a quick responder to emails. The MAMC fleece pouch - TOO HOT for the desert! The MAMC Pea in the Pod pouch, AAAAHHHHH! Finally, the perfect fit for us. I ordered deep tomato red with black stitching (Sheva, who cares if it matches... red is GLORIOUS!). The fabric is all natural, soaks up sweat and it breathes, lets air in and out. There is a lot of give to the fabric, so err on the small side rather than the large size if you aren't sure. What I do is snap it a little tight (right after washing), and then put Corina in, and after 10 minutes or so, it is the perfect size and it stays that way until I wash it again. The shoulder is extremely comfortable and the most important feature to me is that bottom rail. When you get a toddler in there, you just have to have it or they are uncomfortable. Jen is a gem with customer service, and being able to custom order my color was awesome. She hand dyes the fabric at her house! Each and every sling is painstakingly handmade by this WAHM, which is VERY important to me. Hope this all helps. And if you get one from MAMC, I say, GO FOR THE RED!

BabyBoo
10-01-2003, 06:02 PM
Thank you Lori. These pouches look fantastic!

lynettefrancois
10-05-2003, 09:39 PM
Hi,
I'm due with my first in December. I would love some input, especially from anyone with a newer style Mom & Me...

I was all set to get a KKFP (and later a maya or zolo for summer, but reluctantly- I'll explain in a second) until I read about the new design of the Mom and Me hemp pouch. I really want no more than two pouches/slings (DH would freak out). I have narrow shoulders and will be visiting my mom in Texas (a bit toasty there!) several times a year, so it seems like the Mom & Me would be a better choice for me. But now I have a few questions:

1. If I get a Mom & Me "pea in a pod" pouch, do you think I can get away with just one pouch/sling and skip the maya/zolo? I am SO short (not even 5'2") it seems like the fabric on either of those ring slings would be overwhelming. I just don't think I would feel like it would look right on me with all that extra fabric hanging around, no matter how pretty it is, and no matter how wonderful the versatility is.
2. Are there any Disadvantages to getting the second (non-standard) rail, or would you recommend it for everyone?
3. Something was said something about the "jersey" being a little casual, depending on the dye color- can you elaborate? I don't recall ever seeing hemp in person, so I don't know what it looks like. A cream color would probably go best with my wardrobe. I will be a SAHM for awhile, but I'm still partial to Ralph Lauren casual clothes for trips to Wal-Mart and the mall... :) would this work together, or would the pouch look too casual?

Thanks in advance to everyone! :) Lynette

zen_bliss
10-06-2003, 01:08 AM
hi there lynette! i'll try to answer these:
1.) i absolutely think you can use an adjustable pouch in whatever fabric you like as your only sling, they are very versatile
1a.) re -- ring slings with long tails on a short short person. if you also wanted a ringsling you could get one custom made. i too had major trepidation about the tail issue (will it get into everything? wrap around my thigh while walking? tangle in dog leash? get in the way when i lean over to pick up dog poo?) and rev. jan at www.sleepingbaby.net made me one to my measurements (about $25 shipped)
2.) i can't say if there's a disadvantage to the inside rail -- rails on both sides seemed like a good idea to me for the babe's legs -- soft fabric with some give against the inside of the knee instead of the taut stitching.
3.) i made the comment about the jersey being casual. JMO, and by that i guess i meant in comparison to say, the Zolo in brocade or the sleek cotton. to be fair, i don't think of polar fleece as being so swank looking after a few washings either, that's LL Bean casual to my mind. the hemp fleece is a 'sweatshirt' type material, and the fleecy side is out on the rails. my old style marigold looks more sweatshirt-y (and true, it was meant to look masculine w/brown trim for DH), and my avocado doesn't look as sweatshirt-y, more like a companion for GAP chinos. take a look at the M&MC site, there are pics of both and several of the undyed natural. the natural looks very soft and snuggly. ask jen about which colors have come out really robust. there used to be more pics on the site of actual dyed hemp which looks a little different from the swatches. there was a really gorgeous one in "TIffany & Co" blue on the site recently. someone just posted that the red is really pretty and i look forward to seeing that one too. HTH!

lynettefrancois
10-06-2003, 02:44 PM
THANK YOU! for all the info- I'm cracking up thinking about leaning over in a ring sling to pick up doggie poo- now there's one I hadn't even considered yet! :) I will definitely save the sleepingbaby.net site for reference.

I just got an email back from Jen about sizing (I'm wanting to order now so that I won't have to wait after the baby comes) and she seems happy to exchange if I order a natural colored one and it doesn't fit (especially after sending her tons of sizing info- she said she rarely has sizing problems after people asked questions like I did). She said thread color wouldn't make a difference in exchanges- I forgot to ask about the extra rail though. But since I'm less worried about sizing now anyway, I'm thinking about red- it's a good "neutral" for me as well!

I just have one more question- should I expect the hemp to pill at all? I understood from what you wrote that the KK fleece pouch does, but the hemp sweatshirt-y type material doesn't sound like it would... pilling is just one of my pet peeves! I tend to throw things out with gusto if they pill, so just wondering what to expect. Thanks again for all the info! I really appreciate it. :) Lynette