Dinatelli diaper bag -- Mothership knock off???

[bubbaray]

Has anyone ever heard of a Dinatelli (I think that is the spelling) diaper bag? I saw one today at Walmart -- it was a dead ringer for a pink chocolate Fleurville Mothership -- but it was only $28Cdn (about $22US). I'm wondering it anyone has any experience with them?????

I should have bought it just to investigate it more at home, but DH was with me and he is really freaking out about my newfound diaper bag obsession.... Maybe I'll go back tomorrow and get it when he's not around! :)

Melissa

[Truska]

I saw the same thing! Well, except I saw the Dinatelli knock-off of the blue-chocolate Alpha 7! Okay, and I bought it, to see the difference...I was *shocked*, to say the least!

I compared the two (I have the blue choc Alpha 7), and while they are very similar, the Fleurville does win out.

The Dinatelli had:
~all the same straps as the Alpha
~same pockets, with the addition to one zippered one in the pouch where the changing pad goes, and the side pockets *may* have been a touch smaller, but certainly not by much, and wouldn't be noticeable to anyone who didn't have the Alpha right there!
~it comes with a 'standard' changing pad...it folds into thirds, and is more padded than the one the Alpha comes with (but doesn't fold up as compactly)
~the colour was virtually identical...off by a touch in the blue
~the interior fabric was where the big difference was...it was the floppy nylon that many diaper bags have (my EB one certainly did), it was much thinner, and the insulated bottle pocket in the Alpha wasn't insulated in this one, it was just the same, floppy nylon (same spot though)
~same velcro closures
~even the Dinatelli logo was so very close to Fleurville, same colours, same shape and size, same stars over the i's!

Here (in Canada), it retails for $21.95...I've since passed it onto a friend who loved my Alpha, but wasn't quite as into the price!

I guess that means I'll keep my eye out for the other ones as well...Melissa, did the 'Mothership' have the same vinyl over the fabric as well?

ETA: I just called a larger Walmart around here, and asked about the bags...she asked if they were sort of 'shiny', and I said that yes, those were likely the ones! From the sounds of things, they range from $21 to $24 (here at least), and they have different colours and patterns, she mentioned 'Blue Rhapsody' and 'Pink Flamingo', and then some colours, and a solid white. I'm going tomorrow to check them out, just 'cause!

[bubbaray]

I didn't see an Alpha 7 style -- they did have another one that looked more like a bowling bag....

The Mothership style did have the flimsy nylon lining and puffy change pad (folded in an interior pocket at the rear of the bag, not rolled in the side pocket like the real Mothership). The bag seemed floppier than the Fleurville's I've seen IRL. But, for $28, who cares????

Melissa

[debbiet.]

It is a sad thing when you see knockoffs like this. :(
People put their time and energy making good quality projects
and it is sad that companies can just go and copy them like that.
I guess that's the way of the world...

[khakismom]

You guys have my curiosity picqued. :) Please post pictures if you get one. TIA!

[robmab719]

Maybe someone should let Fleurville know about this. It sounds like copyright infringement? Especially if their logo is curiously similar to Fleurville's.

[Smiles81]

Well, I'm wondering if they will be available in the US. I was in my Walmart yesterday and did not see them. It could be my walmart just didn't get them yet or at all.
Reena
Mom to Dovi 3/16/04

[icunurse]

Does anyone know if these bags are available in the U.S. or are they only in Canada? Kinda want to check them out....

Traci
~Connor's Mom~

[priscilla73]

I picked Walmart over Target yesterday and I checked for them. No go...and I'm in No. CA.

[khakismom]

OK, ladies, we are chomping at the bit to see what this bag looks like. Everyone here seems to love the Fleurvilles but many can't swing, or stomache, the cost. Can you guys take your camera to Walmart and post a picture or 2? Many, many TIA! :)

[bubbaray]

I hope to go back to that Walmart today to pick up one (probably will return it as I don't need another pink bag, LOL!). But I want to bring it home and have a good "look-see", and Yes, I will take photos....

I don't think its a big deal about the bag being suspiciously similar to a Fleurville. This sort of thing happens all the time -- look at the Ella bags that use the Burberry novacheck pattern, the Kecchi, which is pretty similar to a Petunia Picklebottom, LV and Gucci knock offs. Not to mention how often it happens in the clothing industry.

I'm still picking up my real Fleurville Mothership this weekend from Right Start. I just thought that there might be some people interested in a slightly cheaper version....

Melissa

[priscilla73]

Melissa

Can you email me at priscilla73 @ yahoo. com (no spaces)

[bubbaray]

..

[Truska]

Okay, I went this morning, and I admit to have bought one...I had to, to at least get you guys some good pictures, right?! ;-)

My store had about 4 of each of the following bags...
'Snow White' (White Cord Mothership)
'Pink Flamingo' (Pink Chocolate Mothership)
'Blue Rhapsody' (Blue Chocolate Alpha 7)

They also had another one in the 'Pink Flamingo', but it *sort of* looked like a similar shape to a Mac Bowling Ball Tote (the long handles and stuff. It zippered open in two spots (all the way around), and had some front velcro pockets a la Alpha 7, and then *possibly* two pockets on the side (they either had a velcro closure or an elastic closure, I can't remember).

I'm going to go and take pictures, and post back soon, I promise! I don't know if I should offer or not (I just don't want to upset people, but I know that Motherships aren't in the price range for everyone), but I have to go back this week, so if anyone is interested, let me know!

ETA: Pictures in next post!

[wdland45]

None at my Walmart either. Can't wait to see some pics. Thanks.
Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[Smiles81]

I pm'd you. You can email me at [email protected]
TiA
Reena
Mom to Dovi 3/16/04

[Truska]

Okay, I'm going to try to post some pictures and we'll see what happens...I'm new to posting them here, and it's different than what I'm familiar with! And, I apologize for the appearance of the blue chair, I didn't realize it looks that bad! Time to get rid of it, or do something, that's for sure!

Now, for all except one, the flash was off, so the colour of the interior is likely truest in the one where the flash is on. And they aren't the best...I'm usually better at pictures than this! Ah, the pressure! ;-)


Front of bag.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9179.jpg

This one you can sort of see the fabric under the vinyl, it is a white cord (the pink isn't cord), and the logo as well (sorry it's blurry).
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9180.jpg

Inside of the bag, empty.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9182.jpg

This is the inside of the back pocket/compartment. You can also see (sort of) the zippered pocket in here as well.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9183.jpg

This is not fully packed, I just couldn't think of what to put in there right now! This is generally what I carry in my Alpha (the big container on the left side of the picture is a full-size container of antibacterial wipes, for size reference), minus the pj's. There was still quite a bit of room, and there was nothing in the side pockets either. I wouldn't necessarily pack it like this, but I wanted to try to give an accurate representation of the size of the pockets. This is the picture where the flash is on (but that's pretty obvious, I think!), and the colour is pretty true (not quite as bright, but that's directly from the flash). The interior is a nice caramel colour.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9184.jpg

Rear of the bag, with a sort of flat pocket.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9185.jpg

Metal feet on bottom of the bag.
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9186.jpg

Changing pad that comes with the bag. As you can see, this folds into thirds, and fits into the bag (you can see it in several pictures above).
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9187.jpg

The no-slip shoulder strap (which is really comfy, from what I could tell from the short amount of time I've worn it!).
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9189.jpg

A picture of one of the side pockets (there are two).
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/user_files/9190.jpg

I hope that these have helped a bit. Remember that the interior fabric is not as heavy as the fabric is in my Alpha, and that I'm assuming in the Motherships. You can likely tell that it's much floppier just from the pictures. Oh, and it does have a caribiner (sp?) clip as well, I just forgot to get a picture of that! Considering it's all of $28.73 (or something close) CDN, it's not too bad!

If you guys want any other pictures, just holler! I likely won't get them up until tonight, but I don't mind!

[khakismom]

Jenn, thanks for posting these so quickly. They are awesome, as are you to go to all this trouble. Thanks!!

Also, did you get my email? :)

[wdland45]

Thanks so much for posting the pics. Is there any other manufacturing info on the bags hang tag. I can't find any info on the net for Dinatelli (sp?) bags. Thanks again.

Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[Truska]

Maureen, I did and replied!

I just went and looked quickly at the hang tag (which once again, looks very much like a Fleurville), and on the very back it says Creations Dina Inc. Once the girls are in bed, I'll try to get a picture of it if you want, and maybe see if I can find more info! HTH for now!

[lmariana]

I found this online. It looks like may just be a Canada thing, since the company is based from Quebec.

Creations Dina Inc.
333 Chabanel W, Suite 900
Montreal, Quebec H2N 2E7
Tel (514) 383-0070, Fax 383-4964
Attn: Dina

Mariana
www.heinzandmariana.com
Mother of Gabriel, 08/14/2003

[wdland45]

I just called - no answer, but I will call again. I will try to find out if she has a deal with Walmart (or anyone else in the US) and if not, if she would do some sort of co-op for her US fans. I'll post more when I find out more....
Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[bubbaray]

Montreal is Eastern time -- so it would be after 5pm there.

Melissa

[bubbaray]

Just got back about an hour ago from Walmart. These must be really new bags, b/c today they had the white corduroy mothership and blue alpha 7's out too, along with the pink chocolate motherships and pink (Mac?) bowling bags.

I picked up a white chocolate one (that may be spoken for) b/c I liked the look of it better than the pink. The blue is a funny rubbery fabric -- is that what the real Alpha 7's are like?

Also, I'm hoping that the authentic Motherships are a bit more "substantial" -- this is a pretty floppy bag (but for $31.98 taxes in, I can understand why). The lining is not a very nice quality nylon -- but again, you get what you pay for.

I won't post pictures b/c Jenn has outdone me!! :)

Melissa

[wdland45]

I think you're right - I called about 4:45. If she is a self starter, small business, maybe she knocked off early for the night. Hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes by calling. If I am, just say so and I will step back. Thanks.

Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[bubbaray]

I don't have any problem with you calling. I'm quite curious. It is RARE that we get baby products here that aren't available in the US. I just assumed that WM US would carry them....

Melissa

[Truska]

>I don't have any problem with you calling. I'm quite
>curious. It is RARE that we get baby products here that
>aren't available in the US. I just assumed that WM US would
>carry them....
>
>Melissa

I totally agree, Melissa!

And you posted about the real Alpha versus the one at Walmart...I had both (briefly...a friend has the Walmart one now), and the material is different, but similar. I find my Alpha to be a bit softer, and am thrilled to have it. However, I was desperately trying to justify the $100+USD for the MS when I really, really don't need it, and don't go out much to get *that* much use out of a larger bag. Hope people aren't upset, but for me, the price was right with the Walmart brand. I would love to own the Fleurville MS, and while I still haven't discounted actually getting it, I'm okay with this one too! :-)

I'm curious to hear what she might have to say about a co-op or something similar though! Oh, and if you guys need anything more local, I'm about 2.5 hours from Montreal.

[LaceyJ]

Someone here should email Fleurville. I'd like to hear what they have to say. Personally, I think people shouldn't support knock-offs. It will just hurt Fleurville's business, and then you won't see them making great new products. I'm sure there's a trademark violation here as well - that logo is a ridiculous copy. It even looks like the instruction book is the same.

[masetane]

Maybe they are allowed since it is in a different country??? While it is eyebrow raising in how similar thse are and it is a pretty obivious knock off, I disagree - the more choice a consumer has the better. Even though I bought 3 Fleurville bags, their prices are ridiculous (that said, many things I feel are overpriced). It's nice that a consumer has options. I would think that every little detail could not be copied though and in this case, it seems like it has and that might have gone a bit too far. However, here in NYC, I can tell you all the knock offs you see and people buy because they are actually affordable!!
Caroline
Isabelle 10/1/00
Nicholas 2/27/03

[priscilla73]

I'm actually wondering if this is from an affliate Fleurville company, made to appeal to a wider market. Walmart is a mass distributor, catering to all economic groups. Take me for example, I have never even heard of Fleurville until this board. And there are NO specialty baby stores in my area. Just a thought...

[wdland45]

Great point. I was actually thinking the same thing. If I get in touch with this Dina, I will ask if they are affiliated somehow, or if she has some kind of agreement with Fleurville.
Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[masetane]

Good point - A LOT of companies do that. Even cosmetics - some sell the expensive line in dept store but the same formula is called something else for the drug stores (my sister works in that line of business. I think it's Lancome and Revlon are the same formulas???)
Caroline
Isabelle 10/1/00
Nicholas 2/27/03

[priscilla73]

Really? I like Lancome products. I'll keep that in mind.

[masetane]

Just called my sister - she said it is Lancome and L'Oreal that are parent companies and share formulas.
Caroline
Isabelle 10/1/00
Nicholas 2/27/03

[masetane]

Just called my sister - she said it is Lancome and L'Oreal that are parent companies and share formulas.
Caroline
Isabelle 10/1/00
Nicholas 2/27/03

[shburks]

Thank you for posting this info and pictures. I checked my local W-M today (western WA) and nothing that looked like these! I'd certainly be interested in one as there is NO way I could afford to spend $150 on a diaper bag.

Susan

[priscilla73]

I will check into L'Oreal. I always buy Lancome cosmetics.....but I never use it. I do buy it! LOL

[debbiet.]

My thoughts...

Yes, companies, especially fashion clothing do this kind of thing. I used to work at one of the top 5 fashion companies in the US and they actually knocked their own designs off and sold them at k-mart, JC penney etc. A whole other division

They used similar designs but used other fabrications, not ones currently under the original label. One thing they NEVER did was to simulate the original logo. They gave the new line its own identity, a new logo.

The logo clues you in to what is going on. If fleurville wanted to create a cheaper brand to reach the masses, they would never "lift" their own logo. This dilutes their own current brand.
In my opinion they would never use their own signature shape or exact fabrics either, they would change them.... Just my thoughts.

Debbie

[icunurse]

Yep....checked my Walmart earlier....nothing. The local "specialty" store gave me a blank look when I even mentioned the name Fleurville. The only other place nearby (besides BRU) is so tiny and "exclusive" that they increase the price of PPB (the only bag they carry). And that's in the south suburbs of Chicago! I would love to have a knock-off mothership.....until I could save up enough for a "real" one or have a reason to justify another big bag.
Traci
~Connor's Mom~

[jasabo]

Wow! That does look VERY similar to the Mothership. Very impressive, for such a low price.

I think Kim, or Aimee, or someone else posted recently about copyright rules - something like 3 changes have to be made to a product in order for it not to be a copyright violation. I could be wrong, but it was something like that.

Anyway, thanks so much for the pictures! I'll have to keep an eye out around here for one.

Lisa - mom to 1 yr old twin boys

[lmariana]

I agree with you Debbie. I'm thinking this is just a knock-off and not affiliated with Fleurville.

If I can get a chance to check these bags out, I'd love to compare them. Personally, I'll spend the extra money to get a higher quality product. Owning a Mothership myself, I know how extremely well-made this bag is. I really think it's extremely high-quality and worth every penny.

:)

Mariana
www.heinzandmariana.com
Mother of Gabriel, 08/14/2003

[boys2enough]

I am intrigued by the whole thing because we are talking about the largest company in the world. Wal-mart has a tough-as-nail legal department: they seldom back down from law suits and rarely settle out of court because they have all the money and power in the world to wear their opponents out. I will be surprised if Wal-mart did not check out the vendor and design thoroughly before they started selling these bags. I am also curious to see how they will handle Fleurville's complaint should it comes to that.

Maybe like one PP mentioned that it makes a difference since these bags are sold in Canada and Fleurville may only register within the US?

Cheers, Lin
Mom to 2 wild boys
D 3/98
G 11/02

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/kao/otn/pnoodles.gif

[dipstixclix]

I'm usually a lurker and don't post much but I had to post something here...

It totally sickens me to see some of the judgmental posts in this thread telling people not to support knockoffs. Who cares? What business is it of yours? Not everyone here has the $$ to afford the real thing. Fleurville has their patents and I'm sure they have a legal team to pursue copyright infringement, as does Wal-Mart. And I'm sure a huge company like Wal-Mart wouldn't do something so stupid as to put stuff on their shelves that would instigate a lawsuit but if you want to do your little part to use these boards to narc out a knockoff, then go ahead. Hope you sleep better tonight thinking that you made the world a better place by saving the patent market. Maybe Fleurville will be so thankful they'll give you a free bag or at least a discount on something! Highly doubtful! Get off your high horse already and let people save a couple bucks! Does it make you feel bad that you spent all that money on your brand name bag now that there are people getting knockoffs that have everything you love about your bag for a fraction of the cost?

If you're going to use this board to narc out a product and make people feel bad just STAY OUT! You're destroying the spirit of these boards to share great finds with other moms who might be interested-if you don't like it, keep your snobby judgments and discouraging comments to yourself or stay out of the thread!

What's stupid is seeing posters being so fiercely "protective" and stuck up about name brands. I've seen posts defending Fleurville, Ella, Whimsical Wears, and other mid-price range bags - but I don't see anyone saying anything about knockoffs of the high-end bags like Coach, Kate Spade, Petunia Picklebottom... the bags MOST of us need knockoffs to afford! What a double standard!

And I suspect some posters may actually be affiliated with these companies and use these boards to check out and report the competition. In the spirit of business it's acceptable to check out the competition, but using these boards and trying to make people feel bad against another product is just pathetic.

If you don't like knockoffs, don't buy them but don't knock the people who do! Besides, it's rare to find a home in the US that doesn't have some type of knockoff, whether it be a kitchen appliance or hair product, or whatever. Knockoffs are a part of business no matter what market or price range you're in.

Even the ongoing competition between the custom bag and custom cart cover companies frequently mentioned on these boards get certain successful design elements and ideas from each other and that also technically qualifies as a "knockoff" or more like rip-off but it's all business and it's expected! What do you care as long as you get the bag you want? At least this Dinatelli company had the guts to go balls out and obviously copy the whole darn bag!

Melissa, Jenn, and the others were just sharing their finds and I for one appreciate a bag that's affordable and has the design elements that I like in a bag that's too expensive for me. I'm not necessarily a "knockoff supporter" but I afford what I can and I don't need to be judged about it. I love these boards for posts like this and new finds and reviews, especially when it's something that's actually in my price range. The judgmental "it's so sad when..." and "DON'T SUPPORT KNOCKOFFS" posts are discouraging, distasteful, and inappropriate on these boards! Like the old saying goes, IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING NICE TO SAY, DON'T SAY IT AT ALL!!! Keep your snobby opinions to yourself!

[essnce629]

None at my Walmart either. I'm in San Diego, CA and drove down there today just to check.

***Latia
Conner 8/19/03
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aug2003angel

[rorycam]

I admit I'm surprised at the harshness of some of the posts. This type of thing is extremely common in fashion. The bag does not say "Fleurville" on it, so it is not a "fake" in the sense that fake bags that have a Gucci label are fake Gucci bags. What I don't understand is why everyone has been so thrilled (and rightly so, IMO) to buy the Kecci bag, which is so clearly a knock-off of the Petunia Picklebottom bag, and yet angry about this bag. I don't see any difference. IMO it is because this is at Wal-Mart, and anything from Wal-Mart is instantly hated by many people.

I don't know if I will buy the Wal-Mart bag, but I think it is awfully harsh to be so against someone buying it. I find it interesting that certain types of bargains are acceptable and even applauded here, such as getting a 10% off a $150 bag, but other are clearly not, such as this. I don't put down those who buy multiple expensive bags, so don't put down those who do the opposite.

Really, the longer I'm on these boards, the more I see I don't fit in. I can afford the expensive bags, but I'm from a small town in the midwest and people here of all classes shop at Wal-Mart and love to hear about a great bargain. I guess I'm coming from a different background and mentality of most posters here--it simply is not "in me," nor is it in anyone I know, to spend $150 on a diaper bag, but I think it is great that others can and do. If you find this bag does not meet your demands of quality or originality or whatever, don't buy it, but don't act like those who do are wrong. There should be room for every level of purchase to be talked about without judgment.

[twofallbabies]

Melissa, could you please email me?

jessica at tragonline dot net

Thanks so much!


Jessica, MD mama to
Dillon (9/18/98)
& Lucas (10/24/02)

Mia Bella's Gourmet Soy Candles:
http://www.bettersoycandles.com

[miki]

ITA. I was surprised how negative some of the posts were about a knockoff at Walmart. Like the above poster, I could buy a expensive bag but I choose not to and I think a bargain at Walmart is great.

Also, just because the bag looks similar, does not mean it is a trademark violation. (Copyrights do not apply here, they are for works of authorship.) I did a trademark search for Fleurville and they do have their logo trademarked. The Dinatelli tag may have the stars and use a similar font but it doesn't say Fleurville, which is the logo that is registered. I did not see a trademark registered for the design elements of their bag. If you are curious about what is a trademark violation where a bag is concerned which has to do with "trade dress", do a google search for "jelly kelly" and you can read about Hermes trying to protect the design of one of their bags.

[LaceyJ]

Did you notice they even copied the logo? It's one thing to make a bag that's similar (kechi/petunia or kalencom/fleurville) but another to make an exact duplicate right down to the logo and the design of the brochure. If you've ever been in a creative field, or spent time and intellectual capital to create something original, you'd know how awful it is to have it completely ripped off. Do you think it's OK to open a fast foot restaurant and call it McDonnalds? Just add the extra N? Sell Big Mucs instead of Big Mags? How about go into a movie theater, tape the film, and release it on DVD a week after it hits the theaters? And it's one thing for these things to be sold on the street by shady vendors. Another for Wal Mart to carry it. I for one hope that Fleurville takes this up with Wal Mart. It's just unethical.

That's my opinion, sorry if you don't like it.

[JMS]

Oh Boy.. I really don't want to get involved in this one so I'm going to try to keep it short.
I kinda have a "who cares" attitude about this purported knock-off.. and when I really stop to think about it and question who is it hurting, of course the only logical answer is Fleurville. But in my (humble) opinion, maybe that's a good thing. MAYBE, it will force Fleurville to design a new and better bag which means more selection and possibly great quality/characteristics for all those in the bag buying market; in other words, by hurting the original designer, it may help us, the consumer. And on continues the vicious cycle which again, I think is good for the consumer (ie., more choice, and hopefully greater products). If you think about it, everything is a copy of some original. Maybe not an exact copy, but original thoughts are few and far between in today's age of mass marketing (excepting of course new tech advances).
Isn't that kinda what America is all about?? Sorry to offend anyone here by taking an opposing side, that is never my intention and if you knew me personally you would know I'm the least controversial person .. but I wanted to add my 2-cents. :)

One last thought, if Fleurville's bag is truly superior it will probably prevail but they may have to reexamine their price points and again that's only going to help the consumer in the long run (God, I'm a broken record).



Oh no.. I'm already regretting adding to this thread but I am going to click "post message" anyway so please no one be upset/offended by my thoughts... But again, YEAH AMERICA!!! Free speech, important debates, capitalism and competition!!

So much for keeping it short!

[robmab719]

Very well put. As some who IS in a creative field, I do know what constitutes trademark infringement. If you create a logo that is similar enough that it can be easily be mistaken with another company's trademarked logo, that's infringement. If you don't believe me, look it up.

I don't think anyone cares whether this bag is sold at Walmart or Neiman Marcus -- the issue is that it's unethical and illegal to copy a trademark. Patents, trademarks and copyrights are a big part of why our country has been so successful economically. Companies like McDonalds, Coca-Cola, Apple and, for that matter, Wal-Mart have depended on these laws to create strong brands for themselves. That's why I hate seeing them violated. Not because some people are getting a better deal than me.

I pretty much kept quiet yesterday because I didn't want to seem like the party pooper, but this thread finally managed to hit a hot button with me.

If you like these bags and are okay with supporting a company who is, at the very least, unethical, knock yourself out. In fact, buy as many as you can before Fleurville finds them and shuts them down.

[jasabo]

Jacquelyn,

I just wanted to tell you that I LOVE your dd's name!

Oh, and kudos for posting - I'm a big believer in capitalism and competition too, and certainly free speech :)

Lisa - mom to 1 yr old twin boys

[priscilla73]

Jacquelyn,
I'm right there with you. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, either. However, I do appreciate the option of buying an alternative at a lower price. And I appreciate Melissa and Jenn for sharing them with us. In the end, it's our choice which to buy. While it is hard to justify the prices of these high end bags, I will still choose them because I believe that 'You get what you pay for.' in most cases.

I don't think it will hurt Fleurville's business since the consumers these bags are reaching most likely wouldn't even consider paying what Fleurville is asking. Even I question why I have paid so much myself. In the end, if it's what makes me happy, then it's worth the $$$.

And like you said, maybe it will motivate Fleurville into offering more choices, etc.

Priscilla

[debbiet.]

Ladies,

I am curious where this is going to go...
Will this bag continue to be sold or are they being sued?
Has anyone e-mailed fleurville or the canadian company?

So curious, since it is such a blatent knockoff...
Any info? This is quite a drama!

Debbie

[wdland45]

Hi. Just wanted to keep anyone who is interested in the bag that I spoke to someone at Creations Dina. As far as she knew, they had no plans to sell these bags to US Walmarts. I asked about a co-op, and at that point, she said she would have to have her boss call me. So I left my name and number. I also emailed them my questions. So. No news for now. I will keep you posted if I find anything out. Thanks.
Danielle

[Dscvrlifewith3]

I've read this thread with interest as it has developed and I wanted to comment as a business owner in this industry.

I am a small fry in the world of design and bag making. I am pretty content with the level of business I get, most my inspiration comes from customers and the latest trends with a touch of my own personal style. Most designers in this industry have put alot of themselves in their products and its disappointing when someone outright copies you. There is a huge difference when someone else gets inspiration from fabric combinations or even a style, but to take something and duplicate it, even making a logo that looks similar is unethical if not at times illegal.

Most consumers do not think about the time and energy put into the development of a product. Not to mention the cost. Those of us who work in this industry work hard to provide our customers with our very best in product and customer service, its disappointing to find out that someone replicates your product or in fact "steals" it to make a profit at your expense.

I think about Dooney & Burke who have created beautiful handbags and accessories for women, pouring money into advertising and product development, not to mention all the people they employ who have to feed their families working on that product to go out the door -- to have all those people's hard work diminished everytime someone picks up a bag for $10 or $20 that looks like a Dooney at a flea market or street corner. Knock-offs HURT everyone, no matter where they are purchased. Most knock offs are made in countries where they are using child labor and women with children are making 25 cents per hour.

For me, to have someone copy my designs and reproduce them at a fraction of the cost takes money away from my family. I love doing what I do, but I also do it because it provides me with an income to support my children, especially one of my children who requires medical care that is covered minimally by insurance. Whether its cloth diapers, diaper bags or clothing, I think as consumers we often need to think about where our purchases come from and if we want to support companies that operate immorally or unethically. According to my attorney, you cannot duplicate what another company makes -- there has to be three significant differences in the product, there can be no likeness or duplication of their logo, you cannot use their name in advertisement or distribution of that item as saying "like ******" nor can you use a similar name like someone saying Whimsy Wears Diaper Bags or Whimsical Wares Diaper Bags.

I can understand someone wanting a bargain and getting a deal. I think we all love it when we can get something at a fraction of the cost or find one of our favorite items on sale. I know that for me, since being in this business, it has made me more conscience of my purchases and think about what kind of businesses and companies I want to support. I don't want to support companies who outsource the bulk of their manufacturing to countries where they are using five and six year old children for labor, or where women work 10-12 hours a day without breaks for 25 cents an hour because there are no labor laws. Its beneficial to our economy and to Americans (or Canadians) to try and purchase goods made in our country or that support employment in our countries.

Just my .02!

Sincerely,

[wdland45]

Because, if no one is interested, then I am not going to put time into pursuing it. Just respond if you are. Thanks.

Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[Dscvrlifewith3]

The Nova Check fabric is not licensed by Burberry or exclusively to Burberry. So therefore, Ella-Bags® is not knocking off their products or making something similar. They are using a fabric, on their own designs and pattern bags. The Nova Check fabric is sold retail at $44.00 per yard and has been available to purchase at trade shows and at market.

[supercalifragilous]

What the heck is going on here? I'd ruled out Fleurville as not-for-me (since the Mothership strap is too short for me to wear messenger style) so I stay off the Fleurville threads to ward off further temptation but this long thread caught my attention...

Isn't this a great forum to see just how different we all are? We come from all backgrounds and, just like the bags, we have differing tastes! :7

That whole Lancome/L'Oreal tangent intrigued me b/c I did notice that in Canada and Europe, Lancome is a drugstore brand and I found that odd since it's considered high-end here in the US. Biotherm is another one I frequently buy in Canada at the drugstore but is sold in department stores here in the US. One of my roommates in college actually worked for Chanel cosmetics and told me that their formulations were very similar to the drugstore brands and that's exactly where she shopped for her own makeup!

Here's my take coming from my background - I'm not a creative or artsy person by any means but I do know how much work goes into developing a drug that affects the health of millions of people... I take it all these "creative" knockoff-haters here don't buy generic drugs?? No drugstore-brand ibuprofen or acetaminophen in your medicine closet? The knock-off "principle" is the same but somehow all the hard work the researchers have put in to develop the drug is rationalized out... They deserve to make a profit for all their hard work! (more on this later) What an enterprising world we have become...

Maybe all patents should be like they are in the drug industry - the original company gets to hold the "patent" for a number of years and be the only one out there making the product (no generics allowed) - meanwhile the competing companies are busily making their own knock-off so they can be the first at the generic gate (like a horse race) when the ban on generics expires.

So in the meantime during this no-generics period, the original company can charge what they want and make tons of money. (One would think that the original company would manufacture rip-offs themselves to stay competitive.) It's the drastic loss of revenue once the generics are allowed that cause the skyrocketed prices of the original drugs in the first place... And on goes the vicious cycle... (I know it's not that simple because drug companies are in fact a business but I'm looking at it from a researcher's point of view.)

A lot of the generics are also packaged very similarly to the original and the pills themselves are identical in color and shape (like Benadryl)...

I realize this has absolutely NOTHING to do with Fleurville or Dinatelli bags but it seems the argument here is over the principle of the knock-off (or rip-off) and trademark/copyright rights and the principle is the same. Just wanted to contribute and share my 2 cents!

[twofallbabies]

Yes, I would be interested.

Jessica, MD mama to
Dillon (9/18/98)
& Lucas (10/24/02)

Mia Bella's Gourmet Soy Candles:
http://www.bettersoycandles.com

[khakismom]

I might be. Thanks Danielle!

[Dscvrlifewith3]

Excellent points! :)

We do not buy knock off/generic prescription or over the counter drug anymore. Mainly because knock offs or generics are compounded differently and the manufacturers are often lax, you never know if you are getting the same thing twice. Having become friends with a woman who works in cancer research, my eyes have been open wide by her. First I know her salary (which is sad considering she has a Phd.), she works off grants, and I have seen her pour herself over literature, documenting her own work, etc that its sad to know that a decades from now, someone is going to take her work and use it to make something cheap without having to really go the lenths she and her colleages went to make it. Yes, I know this is how America works, but I also have learned that generics are often inferior to their name brand counter parts. What is really sad is that some insurance companies encourage buying generics.

[rorycam]

It is funny that you should mention Dooney & Bourke since they have recently knocked off the Louis Vuitton Murakami bags (along with about a million other handbag companies), and their bag looks pretty much like the LV bag, except has "DB" all over it instead of "LV" As far as that goes, they also have knocked off the Coach mini signature bags as they look pretty much just like the Coach ones, except the "DB" instead of the "C," and many of them have the exact same shapes, such as the wristlet and hobo. Why is that any different than this? If it is the lower price, Dooney bags are cheaper than Coach, too. If you want to go cheaper yet, you have Liz Claiborne bags that are remarkably similar to the LV and Coach, Juicy Couture that look just like the D&B bags, and XOXO bags that are remarkably similar to the LV, and on down the line. If you have a problem with this knockoff, you should have a problem with Dooney & Bourke and the others as well, IMO.

[cchavez]

I might be. :)

[icunurse]

Maybe....depending on styles, colors, and costs. Thanks for looking into it.
Traci
~Connor's Mom~

[Melanie]

I posted this days ago, but I guess it didn't show up.

I'm not surprised that wal-mart is copying. It's not the first time, I believe Samara even sued them over it.

I try my hardest not to shop there (they are the ONLY store that carries Ds' laundry soap), I don't like to support them, I don't like how they treat their employees and I don't like what they are doing to retail businesses when their enormous stores open.

[Dscvrlifewith3]

D&B has had their logo all over their bags before. Think the 80s. Twenty years ago they had leather bags with the DB all over them. I don't think D&B, is trying to pretend to be anything other than D&B.

Yes, many bags have similar shapes and sizes to them. There are only so many sizes and shapes to make a bag, makeup case, or wristlet. So yes I think there is a difference. Similar does not mean the same. There is a great deal of difference too, more than three which is required from a legal standpoint. None of the companies you mentioned are trying to be knock offs of each other products, they are not pretending to be anything other than what they are. They do not have logos made to look similar to their competitions.

Also, I want to make a point that I was just using them as an example.I have no association with them nor do I own one (or care too)

[essnce629]

I would be interested in a co-op!

I was a full time nursing student up until January, and I'm now a 23 year old SAHM, I'm not married, I'm living back at home with my mom, and my only income is the $400 a month I get from my boyfriend and the money I make from babysitting another baby, which I just started last week. And I also have $36,000 of student loans (USC is expensive!) that I have to start paying off. Needless to say, I CANNOT affort a $150 Fleurville right now, although if I could I would definately buy one. But I do like how the Fleurville is organized and I could really use a super big bag, so for me, this Dinatelli bag is very appealing, as is the Kecci and Fiona Lang bags which are a little more in my price range (although I really shouldn't be buying any bags). So if I can get my hands on a Dinatelli bag I would be estactic. Yes, I know the quality is probably no where near the real Fleurville, but since I can't afford the real thing this is the next best thing. And if I get a Dinatelli bag does that mean I will never buy a Fleurville bag. No, of course not. If I can one day afford a Fleurville then I definately would get one because I know it is such a high quality bag. But until then, I'd love a Dinatelli to get me by. JMHO.

So, how about that co-op :).

***Latia
Conner 8/19/03
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aug2003angel

[Melanie]

" been so thrilled (and rightly so, IMO) to buy the Kecci bag, "

IMHO, the difference is something that is resembling the style and something that is out-right duplicating it. Now, I'm not a Fleurville-user and haven't see the WM bags, so if I am wrong about that, my mistake. I, personally, have problems with the design of the PP bags and that is why I don't own one, but the Kecci seems like it may have resolved the issues I have and that's why I can't wait to get mine, that and it is a deal! I think there's a difference between a deal and a steal.

But to be honest, I am not trying to be snobby about what anyone can afford, my real barely-existant issue is with wal-mart, not with the bags.

[masetane]

Just replying to unsubscribe to this thread. While the lurker, who won't give her name, is entitled to her opinion and the person who suggested not to buy knock offs is entitled her opinion - it gets me really angry to see such exhaustive measures taken to call people snobbish, stupid etc. There is such a thing as being polite and stating your side politely. I wish you would continue to be a lurker and keep your rude opinions to yourself or learn how to respond in a mature manner. Nothing gets me more upset than seeing someone being rude and mean. I may not have agreed with someone but at least I have never been rude. I hate reading posts like this - say what you need to say but skip the name calling - it makes you look silly.
That's all I have to say - now off to read more interesting posts! :)
Caroline
Isabelle 10/1/00
Nicholas 2/27/03

[icunurse]

Okay....I think this thread is getting way too serious and maybe just a bit heated. So, in the name of our forum "bargains", I will confess...
I buy generic paper towels, fake leather shoes from Walmart, and look to ebay first for anything "frivolous". As an educated healthcare worker and consumer, I do not hesitate (in fact, I seek out), generic drugs, both prescribed and OTC. As a new SAHM who has cut her salary to less than 1/3 of my usual in order to be with my son, I happily cut back on a lot. I also go to a salon to get highlights, only feed my son expensive organic baby food, and just switched to Pampers (gasp! ;) I also try my best to support local businesses and WAHM's. To me, it's all about priorities and what you value and the "price" of luxury. I like the layout and size of the Mothership (material-wise, I think it's kinda ugly). So if buying a takeoff means that I can save a bit more for college or clothes, yet get a bag to make my life easier, so be it. I buy what I like, not for a name, not to prove a point, not necessarily to "make a stand". Perhaps when companies stop gouging consumers, there won't need to be knock-offs. But, until that time, I will shop at grocery stores that take expired coupons, load up at Sam's club, and wear my 3 year-old Birkie's to work.....all in the name of savings and bargains.

Traci
~Connor's Mom~

[essnce629]

Danielle-- I just sent you a PM :).

***Latia
Conner 8/19/03
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/aug2003angel

[supercalifragilous]

You're totally right Kim - My OB/GYN explained that knockoff/generic drugs often have different fillers since they can't EXACTLY copy the original drug. In some cases (like the Pill, for instance), she said they may cause the drug itself to work differently and that's why she doesn't encourage people to switch around, especially when it's hormones like the Pill. Our bodies get used to absorbing the drug a certain way and she did mention that some people have gotten unexpectedly pregnant while switching Pills (even if it's the same drug & dosage) this way. I thought that was a really good point.

I won't buy drugs from Mexico, either, for the allegedly lax manufacturing standards you mentioned. (I'm not saying bad about Mexico, I just won't buy drugs there for that allegation).

I think Canadian pharmacies are OK b/c they're strictly regulated and most of the time they acquire drugs from US drug companies directly. My own parents take advantage of the exchange rate, low cost, and convenience (mail order) for their reflux medication since there seems to be a hole in that area in Medicare coverage. We all do what we gotta do!

[khakismom]

Please can we stop all this back and forth? All of this bickering about the value of knockoffs and whether Dinatelli is stealing Fleurville's design is giving me a headache--and all over a silly diaper bag. I think we need to just agree to disagree.

If Dinatelli is indeed infringing on Fleurville's trademark, that is not up to us to decide. It's up to our court system, if that is indeed the route it will take. And because Dina Inc. and these bags are in Canada, there maybe nothing the US court system can do about it.

But is that why you came to this board or this forum, and this thread in particular? Or are you looking for a "baby bargain"? Because it seems like this is indeed one.

And as for knockoffs, I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone on this board who doesn't buy some form of a knockoff, whether you know it or not. Something about the "those in glass houses" saying is coming to mind. Remember the Wal-Mart Robeez knockoffs? This board was all over them and not one person raged about how they were stealing Robeez's design and to avoid them.

So please if you think that Dinatelli is unethical or stealing, or whatever, then don't buy the bag. Let's just let this thing drop already.

(Just my humble plea! :))

[lmladuke]

Kim:

Just wanted to say that I thought your comments were very well said - very professional and honest (as are you :)

Lori

Mommy to Jonathan 7/27/01
and to Baby Girl EDD 7/31/04

[mamicka]

ITA.

& I'm definitely interested in a co-op.

[jasabo]

Hi Kim,
Just wanted to let you know that, for the most part, generic drugs ARE the same as brand name drugs. For example, Benadryl's active ingrediant is diphenhydramine, which is also the active ingrediant in generic antihistamines (and also in OTC sleep aids too). Likewise with generic Claritin (loratadine is the active ingrediant in all)...etc, etc...

There are prescription drugs, however, that shouldn't be interchanged (thyroid meds, etc.) because they are made differently and concentrations are different. But for the most part, when you're talking OTC's, generic are the same as brand. The points that "supercalifgrag...?" (sorry, I don't know her name) made are all true too.

Also, many generics are made in the same factories that the brands are made - they're just sent down differnt conveyer belts into differnt packages. I only know all this because dh is a pharamacist and did rotations at Glaxo and takes all this stuff very seriously and enjoys "conveying to me all his wisdom" over and over again :) We were also taught all this in pharmacology when I was in nursing school. You may notice, at many hospitals, that they use generic pain relievers (generic Tylenol, etc).

Just wanted to let you know, as there's a big cost difference between them all.

Lisa - mom to 1 yr old twin boys

[jasabo]

Those aren't generic b/c pill's though - they're different brand names. Of course there's a difference between brand names. Yes, fillers are different, but it's the active ingrediant that's important.

And actually, Canadian pharmacies aren't strictly regulated. Tests done on meds purchased in Canada have actually shown that you don't always get what you think you're getting. There was a story on national news recently (can't remember which network) about this. There are a bunch of problems with buying meds in Canada - many of the same problems with buying them in Mexico.

Sorry to continue the "drug" thread, but I always feel compelled to speak up when it comes to this topic.

Ok - back to diaper bags :)

Lisa

[Melanie]

The hubby works for a drug company, and he used to carpool with one of the scientist people (or something, I don't know...Dh doesn't really work on the drug side of things) who basically said the same thing. Generics aren't the same b/c the fillers are different. Kind of scarey considering how many are being forced to use generics by their insurance companies.

[icunurse]

When comparing brand vs generic, look it up in a PDR (Physician's Drug Reference)....most important is the amount of the active ingredient(s)....fillers just supply taste, color, consistency, or form. They shouldn't play a role either way with the effects of the medication.

I agree with the previous poster....can we just delete this whole darn thread and get back to the important things in life? Baby bags! :)

Traci
~Connor's Mom~

[bubbaray]

Before you start bashing another country and their laws.... Canadian pharmacies ARE strictly regulated. Rx drugs here are EVEN MORE tightly regulated than in the US -- Health Canada does even more stringent pre-market testing than the FDA.

The recent news stories are about INTERNET PHARMACIES, which are shady businesses IMHO. There have been news stories run here about pharmacies IN THE USA (both internet and ILR stores) that have been selling rx drugs that aren't what they should be. So it isn't just Canadian (or Mexican for that matter) pharmacies doing this -- it happens in the US too.

IMHO, you get what you pay for. I don't know a single person that buys their Rx's from an internet pharmacy, in any country. I know quite a lot about the Canadian health care system AND the Canadian legal system and I have EVERY confidence that when I purchase an Rx drug here (from a IRL drug store), it is the drug that is prescribed by the dr. and safe for me to use.

BTW, this forum is about BABY BARGAINS. I started this thread (and have many times in the past 48 hrs wished I hadn't) by asking a question about a bag that I thought was a BARGAIN, plain and simple. I have no idea how that intial thread gives anyone justification to bash another country's trademark laws, nor pharmaceutical regulations....

Melissa

ETA--fix typo in last sentence

[wdland45]

Latia,
I just responded.. :)
Danielle, Mom to Alex, 12.03.01 and Brian, 7.27.03

[bethdg1]

I would like to buy one for my neighbor who envies my Mothership....

[pixelprincess]

ditto to Lisa. As a creative professional from an advertising background that helped build brands, I used to buy only brand name drugs until meeting dh. He is an internist and got me into buying generics for the reason stated above- the active ingredients being the same, although the packing materials are different. Some work and some don't.

Not to open a can of worms...but having lived in India (this is close to my heart), I have to say that child labor is a BIG reality for a lot of poor families that have many, many mouths to feed. The Crate and Barrels, Pottery Barns are importing Indian products- some made in these factories. While they may not want to on principle, it may be hard to keep track of every stage in the production cycle. The other side of the coin is the entry of multi-nationals in India that have affected local products. Thums Up a leading Indian cola has lost its market share to Pepsi and Coke. All in all, I think there is nothing wrong with healthy competition as long as the culture is not lost.

As a designer, I understand the frustration of rip-offs, specially for smaller scale companies. I used to add a kill fee for my designs, if someone didn't buy them. While I knew the client could use them any which way they'd want, at least I was being compensated to a small extent. Oh yeah, I got ripped off plenty of times, before a friend gave me that suggestion.

Brands or not... this BB has been awesome for helping me find cool dipe bags like Fleurville and WW, that I would have otherwise never heard of or bought. :-)

Peace :-)

[hudsonam]

This world is absolutely full of knock-offs. Is someone who can afford Chanel sunglasses going to buy the ones that Wal-Mart that look like Chanel? Probably not (unless you are my frugal hubby ;-)). Is someone who can afford a Fleurville going to buy the one at Wal-Mart? In most cases, no. Does the typical Wal-Mart shopper even know what Fleurville is? No. I certainly didn't until I stared browsing this message board. It's ironic, actually, that there are such expensive bags talked about in length on a "bargains" message board, but I've loved learning about all of these designers that I'd never heard of. I see nothing wrong with competition (yes, maybe they shouldn't make their logo look so similar to Fleurville), and I certainly don't think Fleurville has anything to worry about. I can see more where a smaller company, such as WW, would have more to worry about, and I appreciate their concerns over someone ripping off their designs. Anyway, just my two cents.

[jasabo]

Melissa,

I'm sorry if you felt I was "bashing" Canada. I wasn't. I probably should have said that not ALL Canadian pharmacies are strictly regulated (ETA: or they don't adhere to the regulations) - my mistake. However, I stand by my original statement - there have been many news reports about people buying sub-par meds from Canada (NOT internet pharmacies - they DROVE to Canada and bought them at B&M stores). That happens in every country - a pharmacist in the US was recently arrested for watering down chemo drugs. I simply tried to point out that people shouldn't have a false sense of security when going to other countries for their meds. As you understood me to be "bashing" your country, I obviously didn't communicate that well enough.

Lisa

[lmladuke]

This post is driving me nuts!

Lori

Mommy to Jonathan 7/27/01
and to Baby Girl EDD 7/31/04

[kseltmann]

Can I get an AMEN?

Kathryn
Emily 9.24.03