What does it mean that the baby "refuses the bottle?"

[Judegirl]

I read posts from a lot of mothers who say their babies "won't take" this brand of bottle or another.

Is this just a breast-feeding/nipple confusion thing? I don't understand how this can refer to bottle-fed babies. If they're hungry enough, won't they ultimately take it however they can get it? Even babies have a survival instinct; they're not going to starve to death....right??

I don't mean to sound callous, but I'll be EPing (only using bottles), so if I'm wrong about this, I'd best find out now! It seems to me that if our baby won't feed from any of the bottles I have, s/he will be one hungry baby, no?

Maybe when parents talk of the baby "not taking" the bottle, that really means that the consequences of waiting until the baby will give in are too exhausting?

(I have similar questions about babies who "just won't tolerate the crib" or "won't sleep." Is it just understood that everyone means these kinds of things in the context of the unspoken phrase, "without making our lives absolute h*ll....?" Because if it's THAT, then I get it!) :)

I'm sure I have a lot to learn! But I can't bring myself to beleive that my baby will starve or never fall asleep unless I meet his/her demands regarding bottle brands or where s/he wants to sleep. Am I just being naive?

Best,
Jude

[Imperia]

First of all, breast fed babies are often picky about accepting a bottle after they have had "the real thing". Some won't take an artifical nipple because it probably feels "weird" and it doesn't deliver milk the same way. (Just like lots of bottlefed babies won't go back to the breast). With a bottle, milk just pours into their mouth with little effort, whereas at the breast they actually have "work at it" to get milk. My DD was severely jaundiced at the hosital due to ABO blood type incapibilty. She had to be under special lights and she was lethargic. I had a hard time getting her to BF once she became very ill, and they told me she needed supplementing with a bottle if she wouldn't BF (jaundiced babies must have fluids to flush out the excess bilirubin or they don't get well). The nurses attempted to give her a bottle---ptooey! They tried and tried and tried; she refused to ever take it. People have suggested I let her have a pacifer from time to time as well...tried it on a whim to see if she would take it--NOPE, hates all the ones I tried (she will suck on pinky fingers though!)

Babies are little humans, they have their preferences just like adults, and some babies will make their choices very well known to you. Would my DD have taken a bottle eventually if we waited for days, maybe so, but I didn't have to find out because I got her back to BFing awhile later (to my relief!) I , personally wouldn't want to test out the theory and see how long it would take for the baby to "give in". By the time they did (some babies are VERY stubborn) they might be dehydrated or too weak to suck well which would lead to all sorts of other problems.

As for sleeping again this will depend on your baby and yourself. Some people don't mind letting the baby /cry or scream itself to sleep. I don't feel this is acceptable for us. The cry of a newborn infant to me is almost pain inducing; I literally cannot bear it. And evolutionarily this is probably a good thing! And besides, you cannot "spoil" a newborn by holding it or picking it up when they cry.

I know some people feel that they are "giving into the baby's demands" and that they would rather the baby fit into their life as it already is. Babies aren't manipulative or mean, they are just babies trying to get their needs met.

Your baby will most certainly eat and sleep even if you don't meet her "demands" (I prefer the word "needs" myself) but you might be frazzled to your witts end from listening to her sob hysterically. Babies will sometimes even cry until they vomit which can be worrisome due to the possibilty aspiration. Five minutes of listening to a baby wail is enough to send most people batty, and they will do most anything to stop it, plus you may be sleep deprived and willing to do things you wouln't have thougt you were going to do before. In our case, we had a beautiful crib all set up in our sitting room suite in the master bedroom, after a couple of weeks she wouldn't sleep in it anymore (she fussed and was cranky and cried) and so, bleary eyed, I started bringing her to bed with us and she started falling fast asleep for HOURS at a time. She is now 7 weeks old and sleeps 5 huors straight on average gets up to nurse and sleeps 2-3 more hours. SOme of my non co-sleeping friends hate me and ask how in the world I am never tired when I ahve a newborn.

My advice: keep your mind and your options open. Having a baby doesn't only change your life, it often changes you too.

Good Luck (sorry this was so long!)

Imperia

[Momof3Labs]

Only breastfed babies develop preferences and sometimes "refuse the bottle" - bottlefed babies don't have this problem, except in a rare, rare case. So if you are exclusively bottlefeeding, don't worry about this!

[Rachels]

My baby was one who "wouldn't tolerate the crib." Be careful what you judge. I would have kind of scoffed at that, too, but it turns out that babies are actual human beings with their own needs and preferences. You can choose to ignore them, but that doesn't make them less real and doesn't strike me as respectful parenting. Abigail was miserable alone on the (I learned later) unbearably hard mattress of her crib. She'd just been held all the time from conception on, and she needed that closeness. She slept great when she was with us. We decided to respect the child we have, instead of forcing her to be the child we imagined before we had children.

And I agree with Imperia. When your baby cries, she's expressing a need. She's not demanding stuff just to be difficult or to make your life hell. Responding to her needs quickly is good parenting.

-Rachel
Mom to Abigail Rose
5/18/02

[Chelsey333]

My son had acid reflux. I nursed for 4 mos, and gave bottles of ebm or formula once or twice a day (I was working part time initially). At 4 mos, he was just on formula and he hated the bottle. He would drink enough to get by. Some days he would drink a 4 oz bottle and cry thru most of it. Other days he would drink 6 oz and not fuss or cry too much. But most bottles given to him were a struggle to get him to drink. Plus, he was on cereal at 4 mos and starting fruits and veggies as the mos went on - so he had other food to survive on. But never seemed to be taking in enough formula according to the doctors. By 11 mos. I gave up on the bottle completely bec he was still so miserable and I was throwing out a ton of formula.

[egoldber]

Actually a lot of bottle fed babies tend to have nipple/bottle preferences as well. Thats why I always recommend starting with the inexpensive versions first! I've read about more than one mom with a baby that refused to use their Avent or Dr Brown system!

[chlobo]

My husband and I bought a crib and redid the babies room and got ready for our new arrival.

Almost immediately after coming home from the hospital DD refused to go to sleep in the bassinet. As I was exhausted, she ended up sleeping in the bed with us for quite a while. And she slept much better there.

After about 8 weeks, though, we weren't sleeping well b/c she thrashed in her sleep. So we transitioned her into the bassinet and then into the crib in her own room, where she now seems to sleep fine.

What's my point? You can never tell with babies and I think you just have to read their signals and go with the flow. Being a new parent is hard enough without doing things that might make the baby cry more (such as forcing them to sleep in a crib when they prefer a more enclosed space). I had no idea what to expect but soon realized that listening to the baby cry was just too difficult and that I would give my right arm to figure out what she needed and fill those needs so she wouldn't cry. I think you need to keep an open mind.

[Imperia]

Thanks Rachel,

Maddy has been held most of the time since birth as well. Now that sheis older she happily play on her playmat for periods of time, and smiles and gurgles, so it's not as if I have "ruined her" (which people swore I was doing!) by holding her "too much". And besides, as shocking as this may be, I LIKE holding her as much as she likes being held.

Isn't it amazing how you might have all these ideas about how things will go (I know I did!) and your baby comes along and turns it all on it's ear!

Imperia

[stillplayswithbarbies]

>
>My advice: keep your mind and your options open. Having a
>baby doesn't only change your life, it often changes you
>too.
>

Imperia, I just wanted to say that this was a great post, the whole thing, very well written and oh so true!

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[stillplayswithbarbies]

>I read posts from a lot of mothers who say their babies
>"won't take" this brand of bottle or another.
>
>Is this just a breast-feeding/nipple confusion thing? I
>don't understand how this can refer to bottle-fed babies. If
>they're hungry enough, won't they ultimately take it however
>they can get it? Even babies have a survival instinct;
>they're not going to starve to death....right??
>

They might very well starve to death. Newborns are still developing, their brains and nervous systems in particular don't work as well as adults. So it's not like they can consciously decide to stop eating until someone gives them a bottle that they like, and then change their mind when they get really hungry. Their brains are not capable of formulating those thoughts. They do have some instincts that help them to survive, such as rooting at the breast and sucking, but the depend on us to make sure they survive.

It is your own instincts as a parent that help baby to survive. Babies need to eat often and if they don't, they become weaker and perhaps too weak to suck. Or if they waste a lot of energy crying and being upset they may be too weak to eat. So a strategy of letting a newborn cry until they are hungry enough to take a bottle that they don't like will probably backfire.

Some babies just don't like some bottles. Maybe that shape of a nipple doesn't touch them in the right spot to stimulate the sucking reflex. Or maybe the baby has a weak suck and just can't get milk out of a bottle. (they have to suck differently to get milk out of a bottle than a breast, and they don't use their jaw muscles to suckle from a bottle like they do a breast, so right from the start you are asking them to do something unnatural to them when you give them a bottle. Some are okay with it and some are not.)

When we say that baby "refuses" a bottle, it can mean several things. For Logan it meant that she would just not suck. You could put the nipple in her mouth and she would just lay there and do nothing with it, even if she was hungry. Maybe she didn't like the feel of the artificial nipple, or maybe it was a different shape in her mouth or maybe she it didn't touch her in the right spot to stimulate the sucking reflex, and newborns can't consciously decide to suck. (like you can consciously decide to breathe, it just happens). Other babies refuse the bottle by crying or by trying to spit out the nipple, or turning their heads. Even if they are hungry. They don't know what hunger is and they don't know that sucking on this plastic-y thing in their mouth they will get that hunger satisfied.

I suggest reading the book Diary of a Baby by Daniel N. Stern. It does a good job of illustrating how a baby "thinks" and feels as a newborn and as they grow.

>I don't mean to sound callous, but I'll be EPing (only using
>bottles), so if I'm wrong about this, I'd best find out now!
>It seems to me that if our baby won't feed from any of the
>bottles I have, s/he will be one hungry baby, no?

That is exactly correct, and not only a hungry baby but a potentially dangerous situation. Fortunately our own instincts take over and help us to do the right thing. Very few human beings can stand to hear a newborn cry and when it is your own baby you will move heaven and earth to make things right. Be prepared to try more than one type of bottle, starting with the cheapest or the one you like best. You may be lucky and baby like the first one you try. But all babies are different, and they can't tell us what they like about a certain bottle or not. That is why there are so many types of bottle out there.

>
>Maybe when parents talk of the baby "not taking" the bottle,
>that really means that the consequences of waiting until the
>baby will give in are too exhausting?
>

Not exhausting. Dangerous. Newborn babies don't "give in". They are not capable of formulating thought like that. If they can't suck from a certain type of bottle then no amount of waiting is going to change that. It is our responsibility as parents to offer food in a manner that baby can accept.

>(I have similar questions about babies who "just won't
>tolerate the crib" or "won't sleep." Is it just understood
>that everyone means these kinds of things in the context of
>the unspoken phrase, "without making our lives absolute
>h*ll....?" Because if it's THAT, then I get it!) :)
>

It's absolute hell for the *baby*. Can you imagine wanting to sleep, needing to sleep, but you just can't find a place to get comfortable? And now imagine that you are unable to communicate it or change it in any way. Babies can't say "it's cold and lonely in there" or "I need to hear you breathe so my body can regulate my own breathing while I am asleep" or "I need help holding my arms and legs still so I can rest".

>I'm sure I have a lot to learn! But I can't bring myself to
>beleive that my baby will starve or never fall asleep unless I
>meet his/her demands regarding bottle brands or where s/he
>wants to sleep. Am I just being naive?

They aren't demands. They are needs. It's your responsibility as the parent to meet the baby's needs.

You're not any more naive than the rest of us were before we had our babies. :) It's good that you are thinking about and asking about these things now, you will be better prepared.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Imperia]

Thanks Karen,

I am amazed at how much I have grown along with Maddy even though she is only 2 months old. she teaches me something new everyday. Is being a mom the greates thing in the world or what?!

Imperia

[Imperia]

Karen,

thanks for suggesting that book; I love reading things like that and I think I will pick it up. I also wanted to say I loved your post. I think so many of us beofre we had babies of our own or were exposed to newborns didn't quite realize they are little humans but they still aren't adults and can't say, "Hey, I don't like that." Babies are human though and deserve love and RESPECT.

It's like people who say they want a baby on a schedule so it "fits in" etc. I don't know about you, but I prefer to eat when I am hungry and sleep when I am tired ratehr than look at the clock and say, "oh it's exactly 12 noon, even though I am not hungry I better eat." or conversely, "I am starved but it's only 4:30 and I shouldn't eat until 6:00pm." No one tells adults they can't have a snack if they want it or that they can't go to bed early if they are exhausted, why do we do this to babies? I don't know of any studies but I am willing to bet strict food restriction is more likely to lead to issues with food when they are older because you can no longer trust your own body's hunger signals etc.

Again, I loved your post, thanks!

Imperia

[Judegirl]

Thanks everyone for the responses! I just wanted to pop back on and make two things clear, for my own peace of mind:

1. I wasn't judging anyone, or any situation. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. I was just trying to deconstructthe language I hear used often.

2. I feel a little silly that I'm compelled to point this out, but here goes...personally, I am actually in the camp that doesn't support allowing a baby to cry itself to sleep. My mother was very proud of the fact that she never,ever, once allowed me to cry myself to sleep,even well into adolescence... and I've always planned to continue that "tradtion." Even more fundamentally...if I even suspected that someone on the boards was planning to let her baby cry and cry until she was hungry enough to take the bottle offered, I'd probably be trying to figure out a way to get child services to intervene via internet. So no, folks, that's not my position either. (But I'm glad to see the red flags it raised! *laugh*)

Anyway, I appreciate the time all of you took to explain it, and again, I apologize if it came across as judgemental. I was really just trying to analyze the language and the frameworks parents use to express these realities.

Thanks again,
Jude

[akc]

Hi there -

I just posted a link to a long thread I (and others) wrote on Bottle Feeding, so I wanted to post it here again for you:
http://www.windsorpeak.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=86&topic_id=1716&mesg_id=1716&page=

I couldn't BF b/c of a medication, so I tried to put together my .02 and experience on bottle feeding. Maybe it will help you.

Anyway, as you'll see in the update way down at the bottom, my second DD did "reject" our original bottles, the AVENT system. It wasn't so much that she turned away or wouldn't feed, it just wasn't working as well for her and, in turn, causes problems like gas discomfort. Those whose babies have reflux have even more of a challenge.

My DD couldn't "latch" onto the nipple. It was too hard and her little mouth had gaps on each side where the formula would stream out. This meant she gulped air each time she sucked which led to a lot of gas and wrenching discomfort. We had to change to a much softer nipple (and, therefore, bottle system b/c we had and use reusables - drop ins wouldn't have been as much a problem but we own like 18 Avent 4 oz bottles!!! DH was VERY sad.)

I'll copy what I said in the update so I don't have to retype. You might want to buy one of each before buying a LOT (we paid for it two times around, but wouldn't change anything):

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR BOTTLEFEEDING IS THE NIPPLE. Doesn't matter if it's a reusable bottle or drop-in, whether it's silicone or rubber. The baby should be able to "latch" onto the nipple (mouth closes securely around the nipple) and sucks easily. There will still be some drool or formula and some sucking of air, BUT disregard all brand advice and be sure that the nipple works for your child.

In our case, we went with the Playtex Natural Ventaire bottles (widemouth). I will say up front that I think the Ventaire system and shape is just a gimmick - doesn't really help substantially. BUT, the Ventaire nipple was a nice med softness that lets her suck well. If you are looking at Playtex, the NaturaLatch nipples (go in the drop-in bottles) are really nice and soft (too much so for my DD, she folded it over), but could be good for you.


Good luck - HTH!

Alexa

[lrucci]

In our case, "not taking the bottle" meant DD decided she didn't like the Avent nipples anymore. She had to be given a bottle in the hospital (long story) and took it just fine. AFter I was able to pump, we would take EBM in a bottle for her when we went out - still not a problem. Then around 3 months, she would not take the bottle anymore. She'd put it in her mouth and then spit it out. I went out and bought many different bottles and nipples and experimented. We finally found another brand that she would take, so we thought. After having a few successful attempts wit the new nipple, Dh tried to give her a bottle while I was gone. She wouldn't take it. She pretty much cried all day because she was hungry and went 7 hours without eating. So even though she was starving, she wasn't comfortable taking that bottle, so she didn't. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that babies change their minds too. Just when you think you have something figured out, it can change. Their cries are their way of letting us know they need something. They really aren't "demands". By meeting a baby's needs, you are helping your baby develop trust.

Good luck and don't worry, I think all of us were naive at some point or another. The best way to learn is experience, which you'll have soon enough. Being a mother is amazing, and as someone already mentioned, your baby will teach you something new about yourself everyday.

Lisa
Mom to Kyleigh Elizabeth 7/19/03

[Judegirl]

Alexa -

What a beautiful, informative post! Thank you very much for taking the time to post it, and for sending me there. I appreciated it thoroughly.

I'm in the minority that plans to bottle-feed breastmilk, so it's hard to find information that applies to me. I was able to get a lot out of your thread, though, and I especially appreciated your sharing your views on Daddy's role in feeding. That aspect is particularly important to us.

Again, thanks!

Best,
Jude

[egoldber]

There is a Yahoo Group called PumpMoms that is for women who are exclusively pumping. You should join if this is your plan. You will find them to be amazingly helpful.

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/PumpMoms/

There is also a message board at ParentsPlace for moms who are exclusively pumping. Some find the format there cumbersome, but it should also be helpful to you.

http://messageboards.ivillage.com/iv-ppexcluspump

I would urge you to seek support at one of these places. For exclusively pumping to work, it takes a lot of dedication and their support will be invaluable!

HTH,

[stillplayswithbarbies]

If you haven't already, you should attend a breastfeeding class and have a lactation consultant lined up, one who understands about pumping. And also you might want to find a La Leche League group that meets at night that might have working moms in it who can help you with pumping.

Pumping to feed breastmilk exclusively is the hardest way to feed a baby, I commend your dedication to getting the best food for your baby. It's like the worst of formula feeding and the worst of breastfeeding all in one, without the breaks/benefits of either. Moms who have done it say it is like feeding the baby twice each time, once when you pump and then once when you give the bottle.

And definitely you will want to rent a hospital grade pump. I don't think anything else will be good enough to keep up your supply.

There are some moms here who started out pumping exclusively because their baby was in the NICU, they can help give you some support too.

...Karen
Jacob Nathaniel Feb 91
Logan Elizabeth Mar 03

[Judegirl]

Thanks everyone! Beth, I'll check out the Yahoo group now. I'm on the ivillage boards, but I didn't think about Yahoo. Thanks for the tips!

Yes, I know EPing is hard. But for me, it eliminates all the disadvantages of breastfeeding, and just makes for much more inconvenient formula feeding. But the baby still gets breast milk, and his/her father is as important in the feeding ritual as I am. Hopefully, I won't have too much of a hard time with it.

Thanks again,
Jude

[Torey]

I don't mean to be a PITA, but I read somewhere that when you BF your body "knows" what your baby needs and adjusts accordingly. Therefore, as the baby grows and changes your body adjusts the milk. Also, if your baby is sick there is some chemical adjustment that happens to the milk to make it even better for the baby. So my question is - if you are only pumping wouldn't you lose some of the benefits of BF'ding. Obviously, your body is not going to know the age/health of your baby if you are just pumping.

[deborah_r]

Jude,

Don't want to discourage you, but having breastfed for the last 10 months, the idea of EPing sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. You'll have to do all that work, and make sure you pump and don't become engorged if you are out, and you will miss out on one of the great benefits of breastfeeding, which is the closeness and the comfort for both you and baby. I am NOT saying people who bottle feed do not cuddle and comfort their babies, I'm just saying you'll be doing MORE work than breastfeeding, you'll be dealing with the physical things that go along with being a nursing mother, but will miss out on some of the great rewards.

I respect your choice, whatever you decide to do, but I just remember how much of a mystery BFing was to me before I did it, and if I had thought of it, EPing would have seemed like a great idea. But looking back on it, I would never want to choose to EP if I could just BF. Best of luck to you, and I know you have to do what you feel is right for you and your family!

[Mia31]

I second the Playtex natural latch nipples, they are my daughters favorite! I only give her a bottle of pumped milk about once or twice a week if i'm out and about and we tried Avent (ever so popular) and several different playtex nipples....this one she takes with such ease, its a dream...And babies WILL not drink if they dont like it...i found the BEST way for me was to try a nipple, and if she cried and wouldnt eat then i'd BF her. I would try them out at home first, to practice, then going out i wouldnt stress about it. I dont breastfeed in public, but thats just me!