Help me convince my sis to put her son in a 5pt harness!

[peasprout]

My nephew is 4 and pretty heavy (50 lbs?). My sister has him in a booster and I was trying to tell her that a 5pt harness is safer. She didn't think there were any seats that would fit him. I told her there were, but she's not convinced that they're better. Here's what she emailed me:
"I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."
How would you respond? I know a 5pt is safer, but I don't know how to argue points on the failing seatbelts. She has a minivan so I don't know if she can tether in the back row. Thanks!

[o_mom]

The 5 pt harness is not safer because of LATCH or tethers. It is safer because it holds the child in the proper position better than a seatbelt. It also provides more containment in a side impact. Julie has a reference around here somewhere that shows that the head injury rate is higher for kids in boosters until at least age 5.

[ellies mom]

First of all, seat belt failure is so rare that I didn't even take it into consideration when I made my decision to keep DD in a 5-pt harness. I keep my DD in a 5-pt because I don't want my DD's safety depending on her always sitting in the right position. That is quite a lot of responsibility for a young child in my mind, especially when you think about how difficult it is for adults to always sit in the right position.

Secondly, the car seat alone is going to offer protection in the rare case the seat belt fails. If a child is ejected from the car without a car seat there is a huge likelihood of the child receiving serious injury to the spine and head. If the child is in a car seat, the spine is more likely to be protected and there is a possibility that the seat will offer protection to the head as well depending on the position of impact. Also, the car seat is less likely to be ejected in the first place. A mom on another board mentioned that when she had a seatbelt failure, the bulk of the car seat prevented her child from crashing into the dashboard or windshield because it literally got stuck between the two front seats. If the child hadn't been in a car seat, that likely would have been much more serious.

So that really is what it comes down to for me. A child in a car seat is going to be safer if the seat belt fails and is going to be safer if the seat belt doesn't fail.

[bubbaray]

Send her the video links in the below thread....

http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=286676

The child in the booster moves around WAAAAY more. 'nuff said.

[801kelle]

My nephew is 4 and pretty heavy (50 lbs?). My sister has him in a booster and I was trying to tell her that a 5pt harness is safer. She didn't think there were any seats that would fit him. I told her there were, but she's not convinced that they're better. Here's what she emailed me:
"I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."
How would you respond? I know a 5pt is safer, but I don't know how to argue points on the failing seatbelts. She has a minivan so I don't know if she can tether in the back row. Thanks!


Here is a website you can forward to her explaining and why a 5 point harness is safer than a booster seat:

Here is a quote:

This is comparing a 5 pt harness booster car seat to a booster seat you use a vehicle seat belt with ..but still gets point across..

safety advantages over securing your child in a booster seat using the adult seatbelt.

* The crash forces are spread over the skeletal body
over five points rather than three.

* The crash forces are spread to the strongest parts
of the child's body.

* Forward head excursion (the distance the head is
thrown forward) are lessened.

* The child is secured in the correct seating position rather
than being able to wiggle around, lean forward etc.

http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages/4211/Car_Seat_Safety:_5-point_Harness_is_Safest.htm

Here is a video showing that 5 point is safer too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2kO8AxKbrM

Here are some links of videos showing how different types of booster seats were crash tested:

Here is a link to some of the crash tests of different booster types.

Video of High Back Booster with deap side wings:
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...ordliftpro.mpg

Video of high back booster with shallow side wings
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s.../htsbesafe.mpg

Video of a no back booster
http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/html_s...g_P3_vorne.mpg


Another good site:

http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/boosterfit.aspx

One more good site:

http://www.carseat.org/Boosters/630.pdf

On the Tether issue: my friend has a mini van and she can tether in her back row.. we have done it in her car

[KrisM]

Wow, I just read the Kyle Miller site. They say, "Children under 7-10 years of age should not be placed into a booster seat". What about big kids? I've posted before about my friend's super large kids and there is no way they'll be in a harnessed seat at age 7 still. Someone needs to make bigger seats!

[801kelle]

Wow, I just read the Kyle Miller site. They say, "Children under 7-10 years of age should not be placed into a booster seat". What about big kids? I've posted before about my friend's super large kids and there is no way they'll be in a harnessed seat at age 7 still. Someone needs to make bigger seats!


There are several seats now that are 5 point harness that go to higher weight and height limits:

Regent goes to 80lbs and 53 inches tall. We have them and love them.

Radian 80 goes to 80lbs and 49 inches tall

Recaro Como goes to 70 lbs and not sure on height

I am not sure what other seats go to this high of weight and height limit.

Also remember as they get older they don't keep growing at the same rate in height and weight as they do until they are 5 so you would be suprised how long they can actually last in a seat.

[801kelle]

Wow, I just read the Kyle Miller site. They say, "Children under 7-10 years of age should not be placed into a booster seat". What about big kids? I've posted before about my friend's super large kids and there is no way they'll be in a harnessed seat at age 7 still. Someone needs to make bigger seats!

Here is some info on what the average weight and height growth is for children:

Your child should gain about 5 1/2 to 7 pounds each year
Your child should grow in height about 2 to 2½ inches each year.

Weight:
2 years - quadruples birth weight and then gains about 4-5 pounds a year

Height:
2-3 years - grows about 3 1/2 inches a year most children will double their birth height by 3-4 years of age
3 years to puberty - grows about 2 inches (5cm) a year

Quote came from:

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/weeklyquestion/a/032002_ask.htm

On the next link there is a table showing you different ages and what the average female and male should weigh and how tall they should be :

http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/health/info/growth/well/

[801kelle]

The 5 pt harness is not safer because of LATCH or tethers. It is safer because it holds the child in the proper position better than a seatbelt. It also provides more containment in a side impact. Julie has a reference around here somewhere that shows that the head injury rate is higher for kids in boosters until at least age 5.


Here are some links that talk about weights and stuff on latches and tethers and different cars:

http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P49.htm

http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf

[KrisM]

Here is some info on what the average weight and height growth is for children:

Your child should gain about 5 1/2 to 7 pounds each year
Your child should grow in height about 2 to 2½ inches each year.

Weight:
2 years - quadruples birth weight and then gains about 4-5 pounds a year

Height:
2-3 years - grows about 3 1/2 inches a year most children will double their birth height by 3-4 years of age
3 years to puberty - grows about 2 inches (5cm) a year

Quote came from:

http://pediatrics.about.com/cs/weeklyquestion/a/032002_ask.htm

On the next link there is a table showing you different ages and what the average female and male should weigh and how tall they should be :

http://www.cincinnatichildrens.org/health/info/growth/well/

That's fabulous, if your child is average and knows how much he "should" grow every year. I guess my kids and my friends kids are wrong because they're not growing the amount they should be.

I was talking about very large kids. My friend's oldest is almost 4. He is about 52 inches tall and weighs maybe 60lbs. He was maybe 21 inches at birth, so in 4 years has grown 31 inches, or 10+ inches a year. So, the "average" sure doesn't apply. He outgrew the Wizard by height at 22 months.

His younger brother just turned 1 and is FF in the car because he's 33lbs already. He's probably 34 inches tall, based on him being a couple inches taller than my 19month old. If you estimate 21inches at birth, that's 13 inches this year.

FWIW, the mom is 6'1" and the dad is 6'10". The dad is short for his family - his dad and uncles are in the 7'4" range. So, these kids are full of very tall genes.

I know both her kids were about 9.5 pounds at birth, too. I guess her kids don't know how much they "should" be growing.

Heck, my kids are way more average sized. DS is 4 in April. He weighs 38lbs, and since he was 9/6 at birth, he has just about exactly quadrupled his birth weight. I don't know many kids who were 38lbs at age 2 and then 58 at age 4. Your quote works better for smaller or average sized newborns. If a child should gain 5.5-7lbs per year AND quadruple at age 2, that means the child was 5.5-7lbs at birth. DS was 29lbs at age 2, which is 20 more than he started, and 10 pounds/year of gain. Still nowhere near quadruple. If he'd been 7lbs at birth and gained 7lbs/year, he'd be 21lbs at age 2 and still not quadrupled! Let's see. If he was 5lbs at birth and gained 7lbs/year, he'd be 19 lbs at age 2 and just about quadrupled. So, if you have 4-5lbs babies, the numbers you have work, otherwise, they're pretty off. I realize they aren't your numbers, but you've quoted them.

[MontrealMum]

I second what Kris has to say about "average" growth, and the need for carseat companies to make safe options for taller/bigger kids.

I am assuming, seeing that she is in Michigan, that we are talking about those wonderful tall Dutch genes! Or perhaps German or Scandinavian ? I myself am originally from there and all of the above, and according to the above link about "average growth", my DS has already hit the bottom end of the curve for one-year-olds at 28 inches. However, he's only just over 5 months. I measure him frequently because I figure that we're mere days away from switching his infant seat (which goes to 29") out for a convertible.

I won't do the math to predict where he'll be in the future because quite frankly I don't have the time, but all of the men in my family are at least 6'2'' so I'm thinking he'll definitely be up there. That would be because he's in the 98th percentile for length. I was, myself, in the 98% for length and 25% (as is DS) for weight throughout my childhood and did not experience a growth rate slowdown as the "experts" mention here.

There's a reason they call it average...some are below, some are above, and many are in-between...mix it all together and you get the average. I am personally more concerned with the height issue, but I'm sure there are a number of kids that are affected by the weight limits too. Here's my vote for asking manufacturers to offer the market a little more for those on the higher end of the growth curve.

[KrisM]

I second what Kris has to say about "average" growth, and the need for carseat companies to make safe options for taller/bigger kids.

I am assuming, seeing that she is in Michigan, that we are talking about those wonderful tall Dutch genes! Or perhaps German or Scandinavian ? I



I'm a mix and am fairly average. My friends are both Canadian born and I don't know heritage past that.

My DH's family is short. DH is 5'5" and the tallest. We are continued to be surprised with DS who is still in the 75th percentile. We're hoping it stays that way because being a short man can be tough. Of course, being super tall is hard too - my friend gets so many rude comments (why is he in diapers - uh, he's 20 months! and other silly things).

DD was a peanut at age 1 and I was thinking I'd keep her RFing for years! She was 17.5 lbs at 1. Well, here at 19months, she's up to 27.5 lbs already! That's 10 lbs in 7.5 months! Crazy growth. Now, I'll be happy if we make it to age 2 RFing!

[801kelle]

My nephew is 4 and pretty heavy (50 lbs?). My sister has him in a booster and I was trying to tell her that a 5pt harness is safer. She didn't think there were any seats that would fit him. I told her there were, but she's not convinced that they're better. Here's what she emailed me:
"I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."
How would you respond? I know a 5pt is safer, but I don't know how to argue points on the failing seatbelts. She has a minivan so I don't know if she can tether in the back row. Thanks!



Here is some great info on Latches and Tethers:

http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html

Here is another really great article about limits of latch and tethers:

http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P49.htm

[801kelle]

"I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."
How would you respond? I know a 5pt is safer, but I don't know how to argue points on the failing seatbelts. She has a minivan so I don't know if she can tether in the back row. Thanks![/QUOTE]


Look what I just found on the kylemiller website:

Ultimately, a 5-point harness seat offers the most protection during a collision and in the event of a seatbelt failure/ejection it will cocoon the child and will absorb the blow of hitting the ground, protecting the child's fragile head and neck. Currently the Britax Regent is the largest 5-point harness seat, accommodating a child up to 80 pounds and 53". Our strong recommendation is that you keep your child in a 5-point harness as long as possible.

Here is the link: http://www.kyledavidmiller.org/pages/3003/Car_Seat_Safety:_Recommendations_and_General_Tips. htm

[801kelle]

[QUOTE=peasprout]
I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."

ON the Britax Regent you CAN USE the Latch to 80lbs and the Tether! We have Regents and now since their safety recall they have made new latch straps so you can use to 80lbs but they recommend you use Top Tether too!

[KrisM]

ON the Britax Regent you CAN USE the Latch to 80lbs and the Tether! We have Regents and now since their safety recall they have made new latch straps so you can use to 80lbs but they recommend you use Top Tether too!

Won't that depend on the vehicle manufacturer though. I don't know if this information has changed greatly, but http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf doesn't show any manufacturers that approve using LATCH at 80lbs.

[bubbaray]

ON the Britax Regent you CAN USE the Latch to 80lbs and the Tether! We have Regents and now since their safety recall they have made new latch straps so you can use to 80lbs but they recommend you use Top Tether too!


Weight limit for use of LATCH (and TTs to some extent) depends *not only* on the child restraint instructions BUT ALSO on the vehicle itself. Honda does not allow use of LATCH over 40lbs, so if you have Honda and a Regent and a child over 40lbs, you need to install via belts, regardless of what Britax says.

[bubbaray]

I think a lot of people like us don't have latch and tethers in our vehicle. We have to use the seatbelt anyway, so if the seatbelt failed, it wouldn't matter if they were in a 5 point harness or not. They would still go flying.
Even if we did have latch, there is a weight limit for latch as well, it can't hold a super heavy kid, and it could fail too."
How would you respond? I know a 5pt is safer, but I don't know how to argue points on the failing seatbelts. She has a minivan so I don't know if she can tether in the back row. Thanks!

Most vehicles can have a TT retrofitted. If the vehicle is one sold in Canada, there is ALWAYS a TT part (though it may be hard to get a US dealer to acknowledge that) and you might be able to order from a Canadian dealer. TTs are mandatory for child restraints here.

It is highly unlikely that a seatbelt would fail. I think there have been some reported failures on Caravans (there's a class action IIRC). But, statistically, even if the belts did fail, the child is far less likely to be ejected from the vehicle if strapped into the child restraint via a harness. Its just crash physics (seat + child = heavier, won't be thrown as far), as well the child restraint/child being larger than child alone and maybe not fitting through a window. The biggest danger in a crash is ejection from the vehicle.