Oh for the love of...

[tylersmama]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/dizzy.gif (for those of you new to my saga, see here (http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=207095), here (http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129669) and here (http://www.windsorpeak.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=285902))

Just when I think I'm starting to move on and get everything figured out, he does it again. STBX called and is once again having second thoughts (this is probably the third or fourth time, each one lasts a few weeks, then we're right back where we started from). Not about us as a couple per se, more about DS (well, duh, I've been trying to tell him that since day 1). He still doesn't think that we're right for each other and he doesn't know if we can be happy together, but he's thinking about what's best for DS and if it's in DS's best interests for his parents to be together even if they're not happy. http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif

I honestly am just kind of shaking my head right now. I don't even know what I feel towards STBX anymore. He's not the same person that I fell in love with and married, and the way he's been acting, I honestly don't even like him very much anymore. That said, I don't believe in divorce, I've been saying all along that he's WAY underestimating the impact this will have on DS, and I DO believe that if two people are really truly making an effort there's a decent chance they can make things work. I've asked him over and over to go to individual counseling (which he has, but with no results because he has his mind made up going in and won't change it). We've done marriage counseling, with again no results because he wasn't willing to put forth any effort.

Is it cynical of me to wonder if something going on with his girlfriend (oh sorry, she's NOT his "girlfriend", just a friend YEAH RIGHT) prompted this? He says he's just been thinking as he's been spending more time lately with DS.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/dizzy.gif http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hammer.gif http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/banghead.gif

[LarsMal]

Ugh...Bigs hugs, Gaye.

I don't really have much to say except to tell him to stop playing mind games and man-up!!!

[MamaMolly]

Oh honey! Not again! That rat! :31:

And no, I don't think you are being cynical. My first thought was on the same lines. Or maybe we are both cynical? ;) Maybe the reality of being with 'her' isn't such a good time when it is an all the time thing. Or maybe he actually grew a set and IS thinking of your DS.

My thoughts? I think it would be WONDERFUL for your DS to have 2 happy loving parents. I don't think that they have to necessarily be married to each other to accomplish that. You have come a long way towards accepting the end of this marriage. You really need to reflect if he is what you want. If this marriage is what you want.

My parents were divorced when I was a teenager and while it was a really hard thing to go through, I am so glad that they are both happy now and are both in loving committed marriages with nice people. (Ok, to be honest, Dad is on wife #3 and she is a HUGE step up from #2 who was a skanky...well, same as your STBX's 'friend', KWIM?) But the point is that they are friends and that is probably more important to me than anything when it comes to how I feel about my parents.

At a certain point in the divorce process my mom realized she deserved better and didn't want him back. And talk about scared! She was 17 when she met my dad, 21 when they got married, and divorced in her 50s. She suddenly had to pay taxes, completely support herself, pay bills, everything for the first time in her life.

You are so much stronger than I think you are giving yourself credit for. Good luck! :hug5:
Molly

[niccig]

I agree with Molly. He's put you and DS through the ringer, and now "he's not sure anymore!" Probably because that grass didn't turn out to be so green after all. What a total selfish $% ##^#.

I think you need to decide what it is that YOU want, so the mind games can stop. If you do decide that you don't want him back, then stand firm, because as soon as he realizes he's not wanted, then he'll be all over you and DS because of bruised ego. If you do want to try again, then YOU set the ground rules of how that will be.

I hope you can figure out what you want, so you can move on to whatever is the next phase in your life.

[JillSP]

I don't think it is cynical to think something is up with the other woman. Or perhaps the true cost of divorce (alimony, child support etc.) has set in and is not so appealing.

What really concerned me about your post though was the fact that he said he thinks it is better for you guys to be together for your son even if you both are unhappy. A big WTF to that one. So he pretty much told you he'd be unhappy being married to you, but thinks maybe you should stay together anyway? And he is not willing to work on "getting happy" in the marriage through counseling? A double WTF to that.

I never like to see people get divorced and I think often times people rush into divorce so I am not one to promote divorce as something you have to do given your situation. But, but my thought, after reading your prior posts you provided, is that he needs to acknowledge there are some serious issues in your relationship that you both need to work on if you are going to stay married, otherwise, you are probably going to find yourself in the same situation again in the next few years.

If you are at all religious, I'd suggest that you both meet with your priest/pastor/rabbi etc. about working through your issues. Your situation might be more than the religious can handle without additional intervention but I highly doubt one would tell your husband that the way he has been treating you is acceptable or that he can think he can go back to a marriage he left without acknowledging and addressing the problems in the marriage. If you are not religious, I'd recommend continued marriage counseling.

If your husband is resistant to any form of counseling, then I think you give him an ultimatum that if he won't agree to marriage counseling, then you just don't see how you could take him back given all that he has put you through. And he has put you through a lot and he should feel horrible about it and he should be begging you for forgiveness, not acting like he is doing you a favor by being willing to come back for the sake of your son.

OK, this has gotten a lot longer than I wanted, but my heart goes out to you and I want to see you get through this.

[JillSP]

(duplicate post)

[ShanaMama]

and I DO believe that if two people are really truly making an effort there's a decent chance they can make things work. I've asked him over and over to go to individual counseling (which he has, but with no results because he has his mind made up going in and won't change it). We've done marriage counseling, with again no results because he wasn't willing to put forth any effort.


I agree with this in theory, but have to agree with the pp in practice. You don't deserve this constant flip flopping & second guessing. I think you should tell him what you posted here (feeling that things can be worked out but honestly not sure if you want him back). He needs to see that you're moving on with your life & not just sitting around waiting for him to grow up. I agree that it's in DS best interest to have two happily married parents- but that's only if they'll be *happily* married.
Whether this has to do with the GF or not I agree with the pp that you need to decide what you really want. And I thinkg it would be very enlightening to him to see that you're not quite so available anymore- he isn't the only one holding the ball & he'll have to earn back a trusting and stable relationship.
Hope you don't mind the input- if you were just looking to vent feel free to ignore.

[bubbaray]

Wow, where have I been -- I had no idea about your other posts.... So sorry to hear about this.

I wonder if he's seen a lawyer and is finally figuring out its gonna cost him a lot of money to divorce. Either that or yeah, something's up with "her". Whatever.

You need to figure out what YOU want and what YOU think is best for YOU and YOUR SON. Maybe reconciling is best, maybe its not.

I can tell you that a former coworker of mine who used to practice family law and is also a lay-counsellor says that if a couple can make it through to their child's (or youngest child's) fourth birthday, they will likely stay together. Those first 4 years are so hard on a marriage. Speaking from experience, I totally agree with that.

Many hugs to you.

[elektra]

That just sucks. I have no advice since I would be so torn. It's like, you don't want to give up on the relationship that you gave the strongest form of commitment to. And maybe you're thinking that this is just a phase of your marriage and you will someday fall in love again with STBX.
But then you also don't want to risk getting hurt again, or have to settle for someone who will not enhance you, and would not help get you to a place in your life where you can be happy and content. ( I didn't want to say "someone who can make you happy" since in my experience, you can't really depend on someone else for happiness.)

It sounds like you know you would not be happy though to stay in the marriage and that you would only do so for your DS. That is obviously a tough call because divorce can be really tough on kids, and ideally every kid would have two happy and committed parents. However, not every situation is ideal, right?
I saw something on TV once, an interview with a child psychologist I think, where he was saying that your kids develop their own self worth not by how you treat them, or by how much you love them, but by how you treat and love yourself, and how you allow yourself to be treated. For me that was a real eye opener, and it made me want to treat myself better, have more fun, not put up with things I didn’t deserve, etc. mostly for the sake of setting an example for DD, but also for my own happiness! So if you are miserable and in an unloving marriage, that may not be the example you want to set either even if you and your husband are technically “together”.

[TahliasMom]

if you have to think twice about something, then obliviously there's an issue. tell him to quit playing games and leave you two alone. i didn't believe in divorce either but when I try to imagine my life in 10 years, there is no way I would put myself, let alone dd in that situation. now two years later, I have zero regrets. i happy and stable and so is dd.
hugs and prayers
pm if you need anything

[Clarity]

Gaye,
I had mentioned to you before that I've been married before, and when husband #1 and I seperated, there was a lot of back and forth between us... (he'd been having an affair but hadn't admitted that to me so I didn't wasn't aware of that at the time) but I tried really hard to convince him to stay in our marriage. And, he even left his gf for awhile to return to me because "IF he could really be IN LOVE, he wanted to be in love with me". Nice gesture. Makes me laugh now. Anyhow, ultimately he left again. He had come back to me out of fear, and fear isn't what holds a relationship together. He was afraid to leave a relationship he'd been in for 10 years, afraid to really embrace life alone, afraid of what it meant to his family and mine, etc. But he wasn't truly committed to ME and that was the problem.
Now, to be honest, if I had a child in this situation, and I had any feelings at all for the man, I would probably give him one more chance. Just one. Go slow, be cautious, and do return to counseling. It may be just another of STBX's attempts to determine if he really is *done* or if he does want you and the family life he left behind. If you are able to give him a chance and it doesn't work out, you know that you did absolutely everything you could for your child's sake. And, it sounds like this is your opportunity to figure out if you are *done* too. You deserve to have a happy marriage, don't settle for anything less.
You've been in my thoughts.
Amy

[bethie_73]

If he is committed to making something work. Then yes, you can do it. But honestly, I don't believe he is. Just reading through your posts and from your side of things I'm not sure, if he was in counseling, if it would make any sort of impact. You truly need to WANT to change, and he can say this all he wants, but I don't think he feels it.

I have been very luck and my parents were not divorced and neither am I, but my brother and SIL are. They stayed together for the kids, but I feel that if they would have divorced earlier, it would have been better. My brother is an a**, period. He did the same things, I'll get counseling, I really want it to work, blah blah blah. But they were just words, and honestly, now, my 20yo neice has never had a boyfriend, and does not see herself ever getting married, because all men must be like her dad. And my nephews.... well they aren't in jail.

Sorry this is so long, but I just wanted to let you know to go with your gut, and that staying together for the kids it not always the best.

GL

[ILoveLucy]

I, too, don't believe in divorce if a marriage can be saved, but it doesn't sound like he is truly interested in it for the right reasons or the long haul. I see your son is almost 2. My oldest is 18 (my stepdaughter) and left for college this past fall. She has her own life now. In 16 years, your son will be in that same position, and to me, 16 years can go by in the blink of an eye. What will you be left with then? Will things have improved, will he still be there, or will you have spent 16 more years in an unhappy marriage? I understand the importance of having married parents, but I don't think it is worth spending another decade and a half of your life unless your husband is truly willing to work on things. Your son will grow up and leave, and I personally would not want to be 16 years older and have spent that time with a man who doesn't love and cherish you the way you deserve.

[boolady]

I don't even know what I feel towards STBX anymore. He's not the same person that I fell in love with and married, and the way he's been acting, I honestly don't even like him very much anymore.

Okay, I haven't btdt, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway, with the understanding that others probably have more realistic advice. I too do not believe in divorce if a marriage can be saved, but I also believe that unless you and your husband are both happy in the marriage, it can't be saved, nor is it good for your son.

One of my best friends in the whole world was in a marriage (no kids, so I guess somewhat different) where there was no cheating, no abuse, no screaming fits, but just generalized constant unhappiness on both sides. They tried making it work for 5 years, and in the end, it didn't, or couldn't. They are both now married to other people, have kids, and most importantly, are very happy.

I know that as a mom I too tend to put myself last now, but you can't discount the importance of your own happiness. You matter too much!

[ha98ed14]

He just feels guilty because he knows he is being selfish for not even trying to work it out with you before calling it quits. But unless he is willing to admit that he is being a selfish, stubborn SOB and get his sh*t together and apologize and realize that he is in the wrong, you are better off without him. I agree with PP, he is not doing you any favors by being willing to come back to you. If anything, you are too forgiving, but I understand the need/ desire to be- he is DS's father and once upon a time you loved him enough to marry him and have a kid with him.

From reading all your pp, it seems to me that marriage and a kid were more demanding than H bargained for and he found it easier emotionally to relate to the client-turned-girlfriend. She doesn't put the demands on him that you and DS do. But guess what? We make commitments in life that have to be lived up to and you don't get to quit. If he thinks he does, then why do you want him? What about the next time it gets hard? Is he just going to walk away then? You deserve better than that. At least if you are on your own, you KNOW IT! You are not deluded into thinking you have a partner who is reality is just dead weight. Cut your losses and move on. JMHO.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Dear Gaye, I KNOW the best thing you can do for yourself and your son is to
value yourself enough to know that you deserve someone who loves you wholeheartedly and without condition. We learn a ton about life by how we see our mothers being treated and how they allow themselves to be treated.
Wishing all good things for you.

[GeekLady]

Speaking from personal experience, if you stay together "for the sake of the children" but you and your son aren't the priority that you should be, it will be damaging for him to grow up in that environment.

My husband's father is like this. He doesn't love his wife. He doesn't give a crap about his sons. (And he can't stand me, but that's another story.) He doesn't care about anyone except his parents and siblings. And his sons know it, they've known it for years and years. My husband just doesn't understand why his mom won't kick the bum out. To an extent, he feels guilty that he's responsible for their situation, that his mom would be happier if she would have left him, but she didn't for him and his brother's sake.

And it breaks my heart, because my family is close. It breaks my heart to know he's gotten more of a father relationship from my dad in the four years we've been married than he's had from his own father in the last fifteen years.

It's one thing to try and make a marriage work when both parents' priorities about their kids are in the right place. But when one person just doesn't CARE, I think it's much better to get yourself and your kid out of that situation. Knowing that one of your parents doesn't care about you will do damage regardless of if you stay or go.

[tylersmama]

I'm pretty much to the point now that I'm taking anything STBX tells me with a grain of salt. In other words, I'll believe it when I see it, actions speak louder than words, and all that. He has not said that he wants to try and work on things, that he wants to get back together, or anything to that effect. All he's said is that he's "thinking" about things again.

I certainly won't stay in a marriage that's not working just for DS's sake. However, I do believe that it's worth it *for DS's sake* to try everything possible to make the marriage work. So far we haven't been able to do that, because STBX hasn't been willing to make the effort. I doubt if he will this time, however if he *is* willing, I feel like I need to give it a chance to work things out. I will say that compared to last time this happened, I'm at a much more comfortable place with myself and what I can do with my life. I do have too much love and respect for myself to let myself be strung along. I do deserve to have someone who loves and treats me the way I should be. Can STBX be that person? I honestly don't know. Is it worth giving it a chance to see (should we get to that point, which I'm doubtful of)? I think it might be...We loved each other once. Maybe we could again.

My parents divorced when I was in elementary school and it sucked. I had it fairly easy as far as being a child of divorce...my parents were civil to each other, they only lived 5 minutes apart, and for the most part there wasn't any major trauma involved. But it still sucked. I know it probably wouldn't have been any better had they stayed together unhappily, so I wouldn't wish that for DS either.

The whole situation just sucks, yk?

[MamaMolly]

I certainly won't stay in a marriage that's not working just for DS's sake. However, I do believe that it's worth it *for DS's sake* to try everything possible to make the marriage work. So far we haven't been able to do that, because STBX hasn't been willing to make the effort. I doubt if he will this time, however if he *is* willing, I feel like I need to give it a chance to work things out. I will say that compared to last time this happened, I'm at a much more comfortable place with myself and what I can do with my life. I do have too much love and respect for myself to let myself be strung along. I do deserve to have someone who loves and treats me the way I should be. Can STBX be that person? I honestly don't know. Is it worth giving it a chance to see (should we get to that point, which I'm doubtful of)? I think it might be...We loved each other once. Maybe we could again.

Gaye,
I'm so proud of you! It is so clear that you are in a much better place that you were in your first posts. No matter what happens, no matter what you decide, we are here for you rooting for your happiness and well being. Cheers!

[ShanaMama]

We learn a ton about life by how we see our mothers being treated and how they allow themselves to be treated.


Susan, this is an excellent point. I've seen many pp allude to this in various scenarios but never quite thought about it that way.

Gaye- just wanted to let you know once again that you are in my thoughts. Wishing you all the best & the strength to make the right decisions.