Spanking and kids who hit

[himom]

I know this might get a little controversial, but I'm hoping the good behavior in the circumcision thread last week will keep shining through here.

There are two boys in my son's preschool who are hitters. They hit often, and they hit HARD -- the other kids have bright red skin and sometimes even bruises the next day. The school isn't dealing with it adequately, IMO, so I've witnessed it several times (but that's another post -- a bitching post for later!).

Here's the thing: I've always heard that kids who are spanked are hitters as kids because violence begets violence, etc. I pretty much figured it was somewhat true since it was logical (even though I and all my cousins/siblings were spanked and none of us were hitters). An opposing theory I heard a long time ago was kids who have been spanked before understand that hitting hurts so they don't do it. I don't know about that one either.

But I've done some asking around and chatting with the other parents and come to find out neither of these kids is ever spanked -- both sets of parents are firm believers in no spanking.

So now I'm curious. I don't want to debate all the other aspects of spanking, so please start another thread if you want to get into it. I'm just wondering about this single part: Are kids who are NOT spanked more or less likely to be hitters as children? Are your kids hitters??

[niccig]

My child isn't a hitter. He has occasionally hit me or DH when he's frustrated, but he's never hit another child. For me, I don't believe in spanking. I have done it a couple of times, and it's not how I want to discipline DS. For me, it means I'm so angry I've lost control and that isn't productive. When I stay calm, I can resolve the situation much more quickly and that means I can teach DS how he should behave. If I'm angry, I can't use the moment to teach him. I also feel that I can't say you can't hurt another person and then hurt DS.

I grew up in a home with domestic violence. I learned that getting angry and losing physical control was acceptable. It took me until my 20's to learn to control my anger/temper. I don't want that for DS, so when he is angry/frustrated I want to teach him appropriate ways to deal with that. Hitting isn't appropriate and I need to model that for him. So, because of my background, I don't spank DS. I'm not saying spanking is domestic violence, but it's just too much of a grey area for me because of my personal experience and I'm not comfortable with doing it.

But that doesn't mean I don't discipline DS. He knows hitting is wrong and he gets disciplined on the odd occasion he does it - normally when he doesn't want to do something. As he's getting older and more independent and more able to understand why things have to be done, he doesn't seem to get as angry or frustrated.

So to answer your question. No my child isn't spanked and I don't think he's a hitter. He doesn't hit other children, but occasional he has hit me, but I don't think that makes him a hitter, like the children you describe in your OP. And I went off topic with some of my explanation about why I don't spank. Sorry, if I got this discussion off on the wrong track.

[Pennylane]

I have spanked my DC on occasion( maybe 3 times) and they are not hitters. I have never seen them show any aggression to other children. They will sometimes try to hit one another, but I think that is normal.

That being said, I agree with what the pp said about it makes me seem that I have lost control. If I just take a moment and send them to time out, we seem to always find a better way of handling it other than spanking.


Ann

[crayonblue]

DD has never hit anyone. And, yes, she has gotten a few spankings. And, I do not equate spanking with anger or losing control because that is not how it happened here.

[kijip]

No spanking, Toby is not a hitter.

While I think spanking can lead to violence/agression in kids, it is not a one to one correlation. And I don't think all agressive kids have been spanked.

[JBaxter]

DD has never hit anyone. And, yes, she has gotten a few spankings. And, I do not equate spanking with anger or losing control because that is not how it happened here.


With all Nathan's issues has never hit in anger He also does get the occassional spank on the butt

[gatorsmom]

Spanking in our house is a very serious matter. If a child here is getting spanked it's for biting another child or running out into the street and for showing the wrong emotion in response to doing something very wrong. What I mean is, if one of our children bit another and immediately knew he did something wrong (and you CAN tell from the look on their face that they knew it was wrong) I wouldn't spank him. But if he did something serious and continued to act naughty and defiant, oh yeah, I'd spank.

But for the most part, I teach my children to walk away from conflict and they do. Even if another child hits them, they don't hit back. I've never really thought there was a correlation between spanking and a child hitting. I think children hit to get attention when an adult isn't paying attention to them or because they are frustrated and trying to get another playmate's attention. jmho

[hez]

I was spanked; I was not a hitter (though I did fight with my siblings).

DS has not been spanked yet. He doesn't hit. IME, therefore, there isn't a correlation, but we're talking an n of 2, here.

[brittone2]

I've never hit either of my children.

Other than a few little phases, DS (newly 4) was never a hitter or a biter (when he was 1ish he would occasionally try to hit us, but that was even quite rare). DS is also remarkably gentle most of the time w/ his DS.

DD (15 months) is known to chase DS around with an open mouth (ready to bite) or with her hand cocked back ready to hit. She is doing much better with it now as she's getting more verbal/signing ability. DS is also great at redirecting her hitting by putting his hand out for her to give a high-five to him, which usually works beautifully for her.

In our case, DS never had someone take away his stuff, etc. He was never in daycare. He never had to worry about someone getting in his space. DD has had toys taken away from her by DS, etc. and I think she just reacts to that frustration since she's not very verbal yet by trying to hit/bite.

It has been interesting to see the difference between the two children. DD is doing much better with it now than a few months ago, thankfully :) Neither were ever spanked, but we have two different outcomes.

For some kids, I think it is just a phase.

[thomma]

In the past few months my kids have started to hit/slap each other. They've never been spanked. Dd was a chronic biter and this seems to have replaced biting. Ds gets ticked at dd for hitting him and he smacks her back. As far as I know they've only ever hit each other. We continue to work on the whole "use your words" business.

Kim
ds&dd 5/03

[g-mama]

All three of my boys have gone through a hitting phase at around age 2. The older two still sometimes hit one another when they're in a conflict. We do not spank. I don't think there is a direct correlation; it's pretty normal for kids to do it whether or not they've been hit themselves.

[vludmilla]

I do not hit and I don't believe in it for our family. DD is not a hitter although when she was a little bit younger she occasionally hit me or DH (maybe three times each). She hasn't done it in the last few months.
As for the correlation between spanking and hitting...I think there is one. Of course it is not a full correlation but that is because almost nothing in nature is a complete and direct correlation. In social science research, you pretty much never find a complete 1.0 correlation because most things have multiple causes. There are biological, genetic, environmental, and contextual causes that come together in varying amounts to produce our behavior. So, a child could be a hitter without ever being hit. A child could also be spanked yet never become a hitter. There can be no hard and fast rules about this sort of thing. I do think, however, that it is reasonable to think that, in general, children will emulate the behaviors that we demonstrate. So, if we hit, then we probably increase the likelihood that they will too.

[egoldber]

I didn't answer the poll, beause I don't think any of the replies applied. Sarah is not a "hitter", but she has hit on occasion. She has never been spanked. I think hitting is a natural response by many children to frustration and anger.

What concerns me about spanking is more that it normalizes violence as a valid way to treat other people. While I was never spanked as a child, I grew up in a house where spanking and the threat of spanking was common. I saw older siblings spanked and it terrified me as a child. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I was a particularly sensitive and anxious child, so it may have affected me more than most children. But I still remember how terrified I was of my father.

I totally get people who lose control and in the heat of the moment reach out and spank a child in a momentary loss of control. While I've never done it, I've been *that* close on a few occasions. We're all human and it happens. But I seriously don't get raising a hand to your child when you're calm and rational.

[vonfirmath]

Spanking is not hitting *shrug*

[bethie_73]

Ds is a hitter, all the time. That said I do believe it is a phase. He hits (spank the butt, he calls it) when he wants my attention. And he also gets carried away when playing. That said he hits only myself and DH no other child. We do not spank, although I can say that I have been explaining that hitting hurts and he should not do it. He has to apologize and give a kiss and hug. I have considered a small smack when he hits to let him see what it feels like, but I don't know yet.

[Jenny_A]

DH and I spank depending upon the situation. We also use time outs.

DD is not a "hitter". She has had a problem with pushing when she wants another child to get away from her. I don't think the two are related. Just normal toddler behavior.

Jenny

[StantonHyde]

Speaking more to the 2 boys in the class--
1. Young children use physical means to get things they want, because they are frustrated and can't say it, etc etc.
2. Parents are responsible to teach children "use your words" BUT with my kids, they are usually not in a group play situation except in day care. So that leads to #3
3. Teachers are responsible for monitoring kids, stepping in to prevent where possible, teaching "use your words", "we don't hit our friends, that hurts", and my personal favorite "walk away". I am amazed how many times my kids use their words from day care with each other and to other kids at the park etc. (Except of course, DD says "STOP IT!! I don't like that! like its a death sentence.) :shake:
4. If #3 is not working, or the children hit before the teacher can intervene, then the child needs to go sit away from the group.
5. One big issue is that those 2 boys could be feeding off each other. I was amazed when we had 2 "wild children" in the class and one was really physical--after his buddy left, Mr. Physical was MUCH better. So maybe there is a way to separate the boys.

Talk to the director, the teachers need to take a more active role and the director needs to meet with the parents to come up with a combined plan to address the aggression. DD has actually told 2 teachers to "Shut Up" and she was sent to the corner. THe teachers discussed the incident with me both times and we really tried to figure what was going on. She hasn't said it around me but I have had several "learning moments" where I heard somebody say it and DD and I talked about how you do not say that.

[shilo]

He hits (spank the butt, he calls it) when he wants my attention.


I think hitting is a natural response by many children to frustration and anger.

yeah, that. i personally think that if you are looking for a correlation and ran another poll asking "when do you see hitting behavior from children" you'd get a stronger one with attention, frustration and anger as the WHY's then wether or not there is or isn't spanking in the house.

only my experience, but i'd say the issue as a whole has a lot to do with a mix of the kiddo's natural temperament combined with how they learn how to deal with anger and frustration and getting the attention they need at home. like in beth's (brittone) great example between her 2 kids - her DD has been put in more situations at an age with these three things challenging her natural temperament b/c she's not an "only" as her DS was before DD came along. with redirection, instruction, modification of the behavior by the whole family's reactions to her, she's learning there are other ways of dealing with getting the attention she needs and dealing with her frustration/anger.

in our home, on the rare occasion that DS has hit (almost exclusively me less than 5 times in 2.9 years, once DH i think) it's always had one of these 3 things at the root of it. usually for me/DS it's the attention one. i'm doing something i deem important, he's doing something he deems important and can't get my attention and if it goes on long enough with out me recognizing his mounting frustration it eventually culminates into a hit. DS is very slow to boil as a personality, therefore it hasn't happened more than a half dozen times or so in his lifetime. other kiddo's have different temperaments and might reach that boiling point sooner, or maybe haven't been taught other ways of dealing with frustration, anger or getting the attention they need in other more productive ways.

anyway, sorry to ramble, but it would seem to me that while the correlation between spanking household = hitting child is a pretty weak one, the correlation between day to day matching a child's temperament to meeting their attention needs and their learning other ways of dealing with frustration/anger thru both parental modeling of behavior and coping strategies alike is a strong one.

just my 2 cents.
lori

[lizajane]

Spanking is not hitting *shrug*

are you interested in sharing more of your thoughts? i respectfully disagree and do not understand how to differenciate between an adult striking an adult and an adult striking a child, specifically on the behind. they seem the same to me. i ask with respect.

[lizajane]

i don't not personally believe in spanking, as i feel it is striking a child. i also do not personally believe in striking adults or animals. (that said, i have spanked my dog and now, older and wiser, i feel very guilty and ashamed. same dogs. new discipline.) i wish to establish a relationship of respect with my children, and i feel that spanking establishes fear. if a child does not commit an act of "wrong doing" because he is afraid of being spanked, he has not learned that he should not commit the act BECAUSE it is "wrong doing" and has real negative consequences.

however, many close friends do spank. while i don't care for it, it is not my choice or my place to judge their parenting choices. i know that they do not spank to cause intentional harm to their children, therefore it is not my business. and i say this to point out that i do not know ANY children who regularly hit others, spanked or not.

i think hitting is more often associated with frustration and inability to express emotions, wants, needs or desires.

*THIS POST INDICATES HOW I FEEL AND IS NOT INTENDED TO JUDGE, BELITTLE, ATTACK OR ACCUSE ANY READER WHO CHOOSES TO SPANK.*

[KBecks]

We do not spank, and my child sometimes pushes and throws toys.

[daisymommy]

I have spanked Joshua on occasion, but on a whole, we try not to spank in our household.
Neither one of our kids have ever hit anyone.

[Rayray24]

Well I haven't read everyone's post's, but my dd is a smacker not really a hitter and yes I do spank her. I don't spank her hard, (most of the time she thinks its a game) unless she has done something REALLY wrong like run into the road without looking as I am yelling at her to stop and she dosn't. For the most part though she smacks out of anger when I tell her she can't do something, she then gets time out. My dd also play's the I'm gonna get your butt game, where she runs around "spanking" me and dh then she runs from us yelling "u can't get me" She has once that I know of ganged up on a boy and hit him. Long story short her and her "best friend" were playing and this boy came over and started hitting and throwing stuff at them, they starting yelling at him when this didn't work they hit him and put him in there own time out. This was done at daycare, the teacher told me about it. The teacher also told me that this little boy does this to them ALL the time and I guess this day they had enough. :ROTFLMAO:

[JTsMom]

We feel strongly that spanking is wrong, and do not use any type of physical punishments with DS. He has gone through hitting phases, but has never hit another child- it's usually me. I agree with those who said it is usually just a frustration thing, coupled with not being able to express himself verbally. He hasn't done it regularly in quite a while, but he has very softly hit a couple of times when he was really scared and upset. I think he still doesn't have the verbal means to express giant feelings, but knows that hitting is wrong, so that is his compromise.


I also agree with those who said there is not a direct correlation between spanking and the child hitting others, but I do believe there is some correlation, and I also believe that those chidren who have the most extreme behavior issues are almost all spanked or abused. For example, if you were to poll a prison, you'd find pretty near everyone had been spanked or abused.


I'd also like to share a story from just a couple of weeks ago....


DS, DH and I went to a game, and got to sit in DH's employer's private box. A few other families were there as well. One boy was not really doing what his parents wanted him to, but it was nothing extreme from what I could tell. The father went to the boy, who was standing about 2 feet away from DS, and smacked him. It was, what most spankers would probably refer to, as "not a big deal"- "just" 1 smack. DS, was pretty upset about it. I could tell he was afraid and confused.

A few minutes passed, and the other boy came over to me and smacked me! DS saw that, and then smacked me too. Before that, I would have NEVER thought the boy would hit someone else. He seemed kind of "in your face", but not physically aggressive in the least.

Of course I told DS (within earshot of the other boy) that we "Do not hit. Hitting hurts other people, and makes them feel badly." etc. It took a full week of re-teaching DS not to hit when he was upset to get him to stop.


There is no way you can convince me that hitting children- whether you call it hitting, spanking, smacking or popping, does not have an effect on how they treat others.

[brittone2]

It was, what most spankers would probably refer to, as "not a big deal"- "just" 1 smack. DS, was pretty upset about it. I could tell he was afraid and confused.




We were out in public last year and DS witnessed another child getting spanked. He was extremely upset by it, and he talked about what he saw for weeks and weeks. I could tell it had affected him a great deal emotionally.

[Moneypenny]

We were out in public last year and DS witnessed another child getting spanked. He was extremely upset by it, and he talked about what he saw for weeks and weeks. I could tell it had affected him a great deal emotionally.

DD had the same experience when we witnessed an incident in Target. She still brings it up occassionally and it happened probably a year ago.

No one in my house is a hitter, although I also agree that there isn't a direct correlation between parents hitting and children hitting.

[Lolabee]

I also wanted to chime in here, my two and a half year old twins still hit sometimes (me and each other) and we have a strict no corporal punishment rule in our house. Everything I've read indicates that hitting is a pretty normal for toddlers to do when they are frustrated or upset, they simply lack the verbal skills or the emotional maturity to use their words to express what they are feeling instead of hitting.

It actually bothers me when I hear or read other parents imply that kids hit because they have been hit themselves, because it's so untrue with my own children. In fact, I had a debate with my MIL about spanking last year and my basic argument was that it would be completely illogical to hit my kids as punishment for them hitting others. What would I tell them, only mommie and daddie are allowed to hit you, but you can't hit ever?

It has gotten better as the boys have gotten older, and I think it really helped to make sure that I consistently intervened, redirected, and at times put the offender in time out if the aggression was especially severe. It has also helped that they are better able to verbalize what they are feeling instead of acting out.

Just my $.02

[ha98ed14]

I also believe that those children who have the most extreme behavior issues are almost all spanked or abused. For example, if you were to poll a prison, you'd find pretty near everyone had been spanked or abused.

I think I have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true:

There is a little boy, the first child of family friends who was a very violent child when he was under 3. He would pinch, hit, and bite younger children unprovoked--even little babies sitting in their car seats on the floor. But he was never ever spanked. His parents subscribed to the Attachment Parent philosophy and did not use physical punishment. He eventually out grew the behavior. Now at 4+ years, he is a really great kid, and loves to be friendly with and entertain babies. I don't know why he was like that, but he out grew it. I seriously doubt he will ever spend any time in prison.

[brittone2]

I think I have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true:

There is a little boy, the first child of family friends who was a very violent child when he was under 3. He would pinch, hit, and bite younger children unprovoked--even little babies sitting in their car seats on the floor. But he was never ever spanked. His parents subscribed to the Attachment Parent philosophy and did not use physical punishment. He eventually out grew the behavior. Now at 4+ years, he is a really great kid, and loves to be friendly with and entertain babies. I don't know why he was like that, but he out grew it. I seriously doubt he will ever spend any time in prison.

Adding to this, biting/hitting/pinching/pushing/spitting, etc can also be indicative of sensory processing issues in some kids, which is something to consider. Some kids outgrow or can better manage their sensory issues as they get older. Some improve w/ therapy like OT.

[s7714]

Growing up, I was spanked and I was not a hitter at all. If anything, being spanked and the issues surrounding it (which there were a lot of) caused me to withdraw from physical contact with others. But that's a whole different can of worms...

I admit we've swatted our DDs on the bottom once or twice but it's only happened on rare occasions and under severe circumstances. My older DD is not a hitter in the slightest. There have been a few situations where she'll pinch her sister, but I've noticed it only happens when she's feeling physically claustrophobic for the lack of a better term and her sister just will not stop climbing on her.

My younger DD is a hitter. Without a doubt. Anyone and anything is fair game when she's mad, frustrated, etc. She has a BIG temper. The funny thing is that my MIL witnessed one of her full on tantrums the other day and realized that DD acts exactly the same way DH did when he was a little boy. Same facial expressions, same physical movements--like father like daughter down to the smallest detail! And here DH kept saying the girls got my bad temper... :innocent:

[ha98ed14]

I totally get people who lose control and in the heat of the moment reach out and spank a child in a momentary loss of control. While I've never done it, I've been *that* close on a few occasions. We're all human and it happens. But I seriously don't get raising a hand to your child when you're calm and rational.

ITA with this!

However, I have a friend who does spank, but she makes sure to do it when she is calm a rational. She actually has a conversation with the child about what he did and *why* she has to spank him and how he needs to accept the spanking; i.e. let her do it without protesting. Sorry, but to me this seems so wrong. Violating a child in anyway and telling them that they need to let you do it seems sick to me. And yes, I have been super duper frustrated with my 10 mo old and while I have never hit, I have yelled, and that is not something I am ok with, either. So I understand frustration. I don't understand trying to rationalize why a child needs to let their parent violate them.

[lisams]

We were out in public last year and DS witnessed another child getting spanked. He was extremely upset by it, and he talked about what he saw for weeks and weeks. I could tell it had affected him a great deal emotionally.

When DD was about 3 we were shopping and this mom just lost it - yelling and spanking her child (and personally I think the yelling was way more degrading to this poor child - everyone within a few aisles was hearing how horrible and bad he was). DD was mortified and told me that I needed to tell the mommy to stop it. I felt bad for the child and the mother and knew that stepping in would probably just make things worse and so we kept going. DD could not understand why I just kept walking. Moments like this I wish our society had a more "village" approach to parenting.

[JTsMom]

I think I have anecdotal evidence that this is NOT true:


There is a little boy, the first child of family friends who was a very violent child when he was under 3. He would pinch, hit, and bite younger children unprovoked--even little babies sitting in their car seats on the floor. But he was never ever spanked. His parents subscribed to the Attachment Parent philosophy and did not use physical punishment. He eventually out grew the behavior. Now at 4+ years, he is a really great kid, and loves to be friendly with and entertain babies. I don't know why he was like that, but he out grew it. I seriously doubt he will ever spend any time in prison.

Please note that I did NOT say all kids with behavior problems end up in prison, nor did I say that all kids who are spanked will. I said that almost all people who are in prison were spanked and/or abused as children. There is a world of difference in those claims.

While the case you described isn't "typical", it's not the sort of thing I had in mind when I said "the most extreme". I was thinking more along the lines of an 8 year old torturing and killing dogs, or a 10 year old beating a baby with a baseball bat. I also said "almost all" as opposed to all.



I have scientific evidence that these claims ARE true. I'm typing 1 handed here, so excuse the sloppiness, but here are a few things I quickly pulled up.



The following quotes I found on wikipedia BUT they are all cited. Bolding mine.

AAP
"The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking#_note-15#_note-15) Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence when used with older children and adolescents."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking#_note-16#_note-16)


The American Psychological Association
The American Psychological Association opposes the use of corporal punishment in schools, juvenile facilities, child care nurseries, and all other institutions, public or private, where children are cared for or educated (Conger, 1975). They state that corporal punishment is violent, unnecessary, may lower self-esteem, is likely to train children to use physical violence, and is liable to instill hostility and rage without reducing the undesired behavior.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking#_note-17#_note-17)


The Australian Psychological Society holds that physical punishment of children should not be used as it has very limited capacity to deter unwanted behavior, does not teach alternative desirable behavior, often promotes further undersirable behaviors such as defiance and attachment to "delinquent" peer groups, encourages an acceptance of aggression and violence as acceptable responses to conflicts and problems[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking#_note-21#_note-21)




From
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm- (http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin5.htm-)
Check out the chart showing results of the 1987 Mauer-Wallerstein study ehich shows that 100% of the inmates included in the study were spanked/abused.


And fom the Dr. Sears website, a bunch of chopped up quotes- see askdrsears.com topic spanking for the whole thing.

Spanking demonstrates that it's all right for people to hit people, and especially for big people to hit little people, and stronger people to hit weaker people. Children learn that when you have a problem you solve it with a good swat. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring


In a prospective study spanning nineteen years, researchers found that children who were raised in homes with a lot of corporal punishment, turned out to be more antisocial and egocentric, and that physical violence became the accepted norm for these children when they became teenagers and adults.


Adults who received a lot of physical punishment as teenagers had a rate of spouse-beating that was four times greater than those whose parents did not hit them.



Husbands who grew up in severely violent homes are six times more likely to beat their wives than men raised in non-violent homes.

More than 1 out of 4 parents who had grown up in a violent home were violent enough to risk seriously injuring their child.
Studies of prison populations show that most violent criminals grew up in a violent home environment.
The life history of notorious, violent criminals, murderers, muggers, rapists, etc., are likely to show a history of excessive physical discipline in childhood.The evidence against spanking is overwhelming. Hundreds of studies all come to the same conclusions:
1. The more physical punishment a child receives, the more aggressive he or she will become.
2. The more children are spanked, the more likely they will be abusive toward their own children.
3. Spanking plants seeds for later violent behavior.
4.Spanking doesn't work.

[niccig]

In fact, I had a debate with my MIL about spanking last year and my basic argument was that it would be completely illogical to hit my kids as punishment for them hitting others. What would I tell them, only mommie and daddie are allowed to hit you, but you can't hit ever?


This was my experience. I saw my father lose his temper and hit people and he got his own way. I did the same with my sisters. I was spanked and when older sent to my room, but my temper/feelings of anger were never addressed and I didn't learn how to control my temper until I was much older. Thankfully, DS has DH's mellowness, but when he does get angry/frustrated, I'm trying to teach him appropriate ways of dealing with those feelings.

[ha98ed14]

And fom the Dr. Sears website, a bunch of chopped up quotes- see askdrsears.com topic spanking for the whole thing.

Spanking demonstrates that it's all right for people to hit people, and especially for big people to hit little people, and stronger people to hit weaker people. Children learn that when you have a problem you solve it with a good swat. A child whose behavior is controlled by spanking is likely to carry on this mode of interaction into other relationships with siblings and peers, and eventually a spouse and offspring

[/COLOR]

I hear what you are saying. And maybe the studies are right. I guess I just have a hard time believing that the reason people grow up to be violent offenders who do prison time is because their parents spanked them. What about the violent movies/ tv/ video games/ music that glorifies violence/ gang bangers in some neighborhoods that kids are exposed to everyday? I am much more likely to believe that this is the reason people become violent. And it is not just poor urban kids. I do not know if the two boys who shot up their suburban high school (Columbine) were spanked or not, but I seriously doubt it mattered. Those boys were reacting to being bullied and being treated like social outcasts. (I am going by the news reports, etc. I did not know them personally.)

I guess what I am saying is that you cannot attribute violence in people/ society (at whatever level it occurs from spanking their own children on the low end to murder on the high end) to their being spanked as kids. The truth is that your own children may grow up to use spanking as a tool when they parent their kids even though you never use it. You just don't know.

And please note, I am NOT in favor of spanking. If you read my other post in this thread, you will see that I agree with Beth (egoldb...) when she said she does not understand people who spank when they are calm and rational. I too don't get that, and it seems abusive to me (Beth did not use the word abusive, to clarify.)

[JTsMom]

Ok, I see what you're saying too. The thing is that a correlation betwen 2 things is NOT the same thing as a causation. In other words, no spanking does not neccessarily CAUSE kids to be violent offenders (because if it did, the majority of people would be violent offenders!), but the two tend to "go together" more often than can be attributed to mere coincidence. It's kind of the flip side of how you interpreted it... People who are spanked aren't all violent offenders, but most violent offenders WERE spanked (or more likely abused). It works one way, but not the other.

I think there are many many things that contribute to the violence we have in our society. Spanking and more significantly abuse, is just one piece of the puzzle, for sure (but imo, and the opinion of most professionals in this area, it is a very big piece).


I did see your other post, and I 100% agree with you. That is more disturbing, imo, than when someone strikes out in anger. I honestly don't know how you're handling that! Scary stuff.



ETA: Also, the examples you gave above fit right in with what the studies say- exposing children to violence results in violent behavior. The violence can be spanking the child, shooting someone in front of the child, gang violence, abusing the child's mother in front of him, etc.


Bringing it all back to the original question posted by the OP- : Are kids who are NOT spanked more or less likely to be hitters as children. as evidenced by the links/info above they are LESS likely to be hitters (or worse). It won't aplly to every child, but it does apply to the majority.

[Piglet]

I also agree with those who said there is not a direct correlation between spanking and the child hitting others, but I do believe there is some correlation, and I also believe that those chidren who have the most extreme behavior issues are almost all spanked or abused. For example, if you were to poll a prison, you'd find pretty near everyone had been spanked or abused.


I wanted to comment on this issue - I think that there may be a higher incidence of prisoners who had been "spanked or abused", because statisically speaking just about everyone was spanked as a child a few generations ago. I find this to be a weak argument when you could also say that pretty near every one of the prisoners was raised in a home with no cell phones or only 1 TV, or whatever else you can ascribe to a certain era. You will only be able to track future behaviours of spanked or not spanked kids going forward, since it has only fallen out of "vogue" in the last 20 years (at most). By that same token, if you polled the BBB parent body, you would likely find that most of us were spanked as children. Furthermore, I take issue with equating spanking to abuse. I was spanked as a child. I was definitely not abused. It could be that children who were abused also happened to be children who were spanked, but not the reverse. The two do not go hand in hand. I have spanked DS1/DS2 on occasion and I agree that it was not me at my best. My dad (who spanked me as a child) once told me when I was already a parent that he felt spanking was the grown up equivalent to a tantrum.

ETA - my boys have never hit anyone

[Piglet]

And yes, I have been super duper frustrated with my 10 mo old and while I have never hit, I have yelled, and that is not something I am ok with, either.

Not to dismiss your feelings of frustration, but wait until you have a 2 or a 3 year old... now that is super duper frustrated! DS2 was never spanked until he was 3.5. It never even occurred to us how incredibly hard it would be to discipline a 3 year old until the time came and we resorted to spanking. We have hardly ever done it since.

[punkrockmama]

I didn't vote because my kids aren't hitters and I don't spank them "sometimes". I've never spanked Layla, but last year I spanked Peyton on three different occasions. I got extremely frustrated and angry and spanked him. We went thru a rough patch last year when I spent some days being downright pissed off at a three year old. I always loved him but I'll be honest and say there were times I just didn't like him.

For ME and my family, spaking is not the way I want to parent BUT I don't judge people for how they choose to dicipline their children. I always say unless your locking them under the stairs or something, it's none of my business, IYKWIM. I'm not gonna go there because I live in a big, giant glass house.

I was spanked as a kid. I got the belt mostly, but there were a few times when I got a hanger. I wasn't a hitter when I was little. I got spanked mostly for stuff like running into the street, reaching for stove knobs, etc..

[Java]

I don't hit my children. I do spank them when needed, as in for bad behavioral issues that could not be resolved any other means (talking to, time outs, removal from the situation, repeated corrections).

My kids (I should really say "kid" as only DS gets spanked as I feel he's old enough to understand certain rules and can follow them; DD is not old enough) are not hitters. Or biters. Or throwers. He is very well behaved and does not have the slightest aggressive bone in his body. I obviously don't enjoy spanking him or giving him time-outs or doing anything that makes him so unhappy but I feel that as his parent, I have to teach right behaviors for his safety, even if that means I have to spank to get the message across.

I will probably flamed for this but here goes: on certain issues like running away into potentially dangerous places like streets, parking lots, etc., if after several stern talking-to's and demonstrations and he still does it, I will spank. He may not understand the danger of getting hit by a car (heck, even adults don't understand that considering how reckless some drive) then I want him to respect the punishment enough to deter him from running, with the knowledge that as he gets older, he will understand the rule. Obviously I do everything I can to prevent the situation from happening (I am the Nervous Nelly mom who will hold her kids' hands even when they are 10 years old) but sometimes he slips away. Maybe when I'm trying to put baby in, while trying to stop cart from rolling and he just needs to grab my shirt for 2 seconds. But he doesn't. Instead he chases after a bird. Things happen despite everything I do to prevent it. He's old enough to understand the dangers. If not, then he's old enough to understand the punishment for his decisions.

Oh, and I was spanked a lot as a child. I learned to respect the rules, respect my elders, respect persons of authority and respect other members of society. Is that a correlation? I don't know. I do know that I have friends who are incredibly disrespectful to their parents and people in general who were not spanked as children. I remember wishing their parents were my parents but as I look back on my childhood now, I appreciate the manners and respect my parents instilled in me. It's made me a more appreciative person of the things I have and the people in my life. My parents' spankings were not abusive as my spankings were always a result of some transgression in my behavior (sass talking, skipping curfew, etc.). To be abusive would mean that I would get hit for sitting down wrong or wearing the wrong color shirt. There would be no logical reason or valid behavioral correction for the spanking, therefore it was a hitting. That's how I differentiate the two.

One more: I don't spank my kids nearly as much as I got spanked. I hated getting spanked but I now understand why my parents did it. Raising kids is hard and not all children are the same. Some understand the rules quicker, others don't. Some respond better to verbal correction, others don't. Unfortunately DS sometimes doesn't respond to verbal correction as well as I would like. So I spank. I'm not going to wait for something bad to happen to my child before I think "maybe I should have done more, like spanked him, then maybe he wouldn't have run into the parking lot and gotten hit by a car."

[cvanbrunt]

I normally wouldn't touch this kind of discussion with a 10 ft pole but professor mode has been activated and I can't turn it off.


Ok, I see what you're saying too. The thing is that a correlation betwen 2 things is NOT the same thing as a causation. In other words, no spanking does not neccessarily CAUSE kids to be violent offenders (because if it did, the majority of people would be violent offenders!), but the two tend to "go together" more often than can be attributed to mere coincidence. It's kind of the flip side of how you interpreted it... People who are spanked aren't all violent offenders, but most violent offenders WERE spanked (or more likely abused). It works one way, but not the other.

This isn't what a correlation tells us. A correlation tells us that two factors vary with each other, either positively or negatively and how strong/meaningful that relationship is. Statistical significance tells us if that variation is due to chance. You can have a weak correlation that is statistically significant. My favorite example is that there is a significant negative relationship between breast size and IQ. The bigger the boobs, the dumber you are. While that correlation is "significant" and not due to chance the strength of the correlation is negligible and effectively meaningless. If you have enough people in your sample, you can find a "significant" correlation between anything.









Bringing it all back to the original question posted by the OP- : Are kids who are NOT spanked more or less likely to be hitters as children. as evidenced by the links/info above they are LESS likely to be hitters (or worse). It won't aplly to every child, but it does apply to the majority.

Again, just because there is a relationship it doesn't mean it applies to the majority of people. It could be a minority of people but explain a lot of variation. Often, if you start looking at subcategories of people (offenders vs. non-offenders) you see changes in the directions of relationships that could simply be an artifact of doing lots of post-hoc analyses.

In a very roundabout (and admittedly annoying academic fashion) way, I'm just pointing out that correlation tells us very little about cause. It gives us good hypotheses to test. People can interpret this kind of data to fit their personal beliefs. The autism-vaccine discussion is another good example. With these kinds of big questions I'm afraid we are never going to know "the answer". We can't do the well-controlled experiment that allows us to make causal statements.

In response to the original question, I've never spanked my 2.5 yo and she hits me when she's frustrated.

[s7714]

Raising kids is hard and not all children are the same. Some understand the rules quicker, others don't. Some respond better to verbal correction, others don't. Unfortunately DS sometimes doesn't respond to verbal correction as well as I would like.

I agree, even down to the running in the street/parking lot thing too as that's one of the few issues that has caused me to spank my younger DD. My older DD got sternly scolded once or twice when she was younger about holding our hand and not running about in parking lots or streets and she's never done it since. My younger DD, OTOH, has been reprimanded verbally and every other sort of non-physical way in regards to that issue and nothing worked. One day she darted past me into the open parking lot with a car coming right at her. Luckily it was far enough away I had time to snatch her out of harms way, only to have her try it again seconds later. I promptly planted a couple smacks on her behind before parking her tush in the back of the van for a time-out. She still resists holding my hand on occasion, but her parking lot behavior improved drastically after the spanking incident.

[brittone2]

My two kids are very different. I'm still uncomfortable w/ using fear as a deterrent with my own children.

I certainly get angry, and have yelled, and have certainly had the urge to spank, but I've never acted on it. I do believe there is always an effective alternative to spanking. JMO.

[GeekLady]

This isn't what a correlation tells us. A correlation tells us that two factors vary with each other, either positively or negatively and how strong/meaningful that relationship is. Statistical significance tells us if that variation is due to chance. You can have a weak correlation that is statistically significant. My favorite example is that there is a significant negative relationship between breast size and IQ. The bigger the boobs, the dumber you are. While that correlation is "significant" and not due to chance the strength of the correlation is negligible and effectively meaningless. If you have enough people in your sample, you can find a "significant" correlation between anything.

Your paragraph bears repeating. And I love you. Platonically.
:D

[egoldber]

I'm still uncomfortable w/ using fear as a deterrent with my own children

Exactly. I lived that childhood and swore it would never happen to my children.

[JTsMom]

I wanted to comment on this issue - I think that there may be a higher incidence of prisoners who had been "spanked or abused", because statisically speaking just about everyone was spanked as a child a few generations ago. I find this to be a weak argument when you could also say that pretty near every one of the prisoners was raised in a home with no cell phones or only 1 TV, or whatever else you can ascribe to a certain era. You will only be able to track future behaviours of spanked or not spanked kids going forward, since it has only fallen out of "vogue" in the last 20 years (at most).

Did you look at the whole chart, or just that one stat? I think the data is pretty interesting. There have been many other, more current studies, but I used that chart specifically b/c the statement that most prisoners had been abused and/or spanked was challenged. If what we are supposed to be discussing is "does violence beget violence", I think it is relevant. Again, as I have already stated, I am NOT saying that all kids (or for that matter even most kids) who are spanked are violent. I do NOT believe that is true, and I thought I had made that clear. I am simply saying that as the violence kids are exposed to increases, so does their own level of violence. THAT is why priosoners being severly physically punished is relevant.


By that same token, if you polled the BBB parent body, you would likely find that most of us were spanked as children. Furthermore, I take issue with equating spanking to abuse. I was spanked as a child. I was definitely not abused. It could be that children who were abused also happened to be children who were spanked, but not the reverse. The two do not go hand in hand.

I agree- most of us were spanked, absolutely. See my comment above. Here is the point I really want to make thought. I did NOT equate spanking as abuse. I specifically used spanking and/or abuse each time, and I was very careful about doing so, specifically b/c I wanted to avoid this type of comment. If I wanted to equate them, I would have just said abuse. I do think they are on the same continum of physical punishment, but one is more severe than the other. Again, abuse is relevant to this discussion, imo, b/c we are discussing whether violence begets violence.

I have spanked DS1/DS2 on occasion and I agree that it was not me at my best. My dad (who spanked me as a child) once told me when I was already a parent that he felt spanking was the grown up equivalent to a tantrum.

I fully agree with your dad!


ETA - my boys have never hit anyone[/quote]

[JTsMom]

]I normally wouldn't touch this kind of discussion with a 10 ft pole but professor mode has been activated and I can't turn it off.


This is the first one of these I've jumped into since debating the safety of eating lunchmeat whle pregnant 3.5 years ago. LOL But I'm sure you can tell this is a hot button issue for me, and it just seems to be coming up over and over again the past couple of weeks, so I thought I'd jump in.


This isn't what a correlation tells us. A correlation tells us that two factors vary with each other, either positively or negatively and how strong/meaningful that relationship is. Statistical significance tells us if that variation is due to chance. You can have a weak correlation that is statistically significant. My favorite example is that there is a significant negative relationship between breast size and IQ. The bigger the boobs, the dumber you are. While that correlation is "significant" and not due to chance the strength of the correlation is negligible and effectively meaningless. If you have enough people in your sample, you can find a "significant" correlation between anything.

I full agree with your much more complete definition. Mine was overly simplistic, but I was simply trying to say that correlation does not equal causation in the most simple terms I could. In this instance, I was referring to the correlation between the violence a child is exposed to and the violence the child exhibits, which is a positive correlation, corrrect? And the data is signgicant, correct? Honestly, I was pretty surprised that this theory was even being questioned!




Again, just because there is a relationship it doesn't mean it applies to the majority of people. It could be a minority of people but explain a lot of variation. Often, if you start looking at subcategories of people (offenders vs. non-offenders) you see changes in the directions of relationships that could simply be an artifact of doing lots of post-hoc analyses.


Again, I wasn't explaining how stats work, just this data. I do appreciate you going into in depth though. :)

In a very roundabout (and admittedly annoying academic fashion) way, I'm just pointing out that correlation tells us very little about cause. It gives us good hypotheses to test. People can interpret this kind of data to fit their personal beliefs. The autism-vaccine discussion is another good example. With these kinds of big questions I'm afraid we are never going to know "the answer". We can't do the well-controlled experiment that allows us to make causal statements.


Agreed, which is why I was trying to point out the difference in the first place. I also provided a lot more info than just that one chart. This is hardly some out-there information gathered by one special interest group. I provided quotes from the APA, the AAP and others. If I am wrong in my beliefs, at least I'm in good company!


In response to the original question, I've never spanked my 2.5 yo and she hits me when she's frustrated.



So, do you agree? Does violence beget violence?

[brittone2]

I just wanted to add that there have also been studies demonstrating that punishment (spanking or otherwise) tends to only be effective when the child knows an adult/authority figure is present and able to dole out the punishment. That's because it works on a basis of fear IMO.

The same kids that would not do a specific behavior with an adult in room will then tend to repeat that behavior if they feel reasonably sure no one is watching.

Punishment is an external motivator for behavior, which is why it isn't very effective if there is no adult or authority figure around to observe and administer the "lesson".

ETA: I believe Alfie Kohn cites studies showing this is true of a "reward" system as well. That's the problem w/ punishments and rewards in general...it all depends on an external force as a motivator to "behave."

[missym]

Furthermore, I take issue with equating spanking to abuse. I was spanked as a child. I was definitely not abused.

I also do not equate spanking with abuse. I was spanked as a child, and I was abused. Even at 4-5 years old, I knew the difference between my mom spanking me when I deserved it and my dad smacking me around.

[TaChapm]

On occasion I do spank my kids IF it is a situation that is dangerous and I need to get the point across to them in a fast and effective way. We mostly do time outs and a lot of talking but if I need to I will spank my kids.

I was spanked as a child and NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS EVER felt abused or like my parents didn't love me. In fact I grew up in a very loving home which I felt completely secure and safe. I knew the rules and if I broke them I got spanked and I knew I deserved it. I never lived in fear of my parent's raising their hand to me. When I was spanked it was always in a very controlled way and ALWAYS on my bottom. I am not scarred for life as a result of my spanking as a child nor am I an agressive abusive adult. I don't think there is a connection between the two. I think if you were HIT (not in a controlled way like what I consider spanking to be) or abused then there could be a connection but not for spanking alone.

****I CONSIDER SPANING TO BE DONE IN A CONTROLLED WAY AND ON THE BOTTOM. SPANING IS ALSO ALWAYS FOLLOWED UP BY A STERN TALIKING TO EXPLAINING WHY IT WAS DONE. I DO NOT CONSIDER HITTING TO BE THE SAME SINCE IT IS USUALLY DONE IN A NON CONTROLLED WAY AND IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT OR A MAD RAGE.***** This is how I PERSONALLY view spanking.

[crayonblue]

On occasion I do spank my kids IF it is a situation that is dangerous and I need to get the point across to them in a fast and effective way. We mostly do time outs and a lot of talking but if I need to I will spank my kids.

I was spanked as a child and NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS EVER felt abused or like my parents didn't love me. In fact I grew up in a very loving home which I felt completely secure and safe. I knew the rules and if I broke them I got spanked and I knew I deserved it. I never lived in fear of my parent's raising their hand to me. When I was spanked it was always in a very controlled way and ALWAYS on my bottom. I am not scarred for life as a result of my spanking as a child nor am I an agressive abusive adult. I don't think there is a connection between the two. I think if you were HIT (not in a controlled way like what I consider spanking to be) or abused then there could be a connection but not for spanking alone.

****I CONSIDER SPANING TO BE DONE IN A CONTROLLED WAY AND ON THE BOTTOM. SPANING IS ALSO ALWAYS FOLLOWED UP BY A STERN TALIKING TO EXPLAINING WHY IT WAS DONE. I DO NOT CONSIDER HITTING TO BE THE SAME SINCE IT IS USUALLY DONE IN A NON CONTROLLED WAY AND IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT OR A MAD RAGE.***** This is how I PERSONALLY view spanking.

I agree 100% with this post as I had the same experience growing up.

And, about those prisoners, my mom is a psychologist in a prison and just about every one of her patients was abused as a child. Mostly sexually abused. Not one of them was "spanked" in the way described above. If asked, every one of them would say they were abused and that it had nothing to do with a smack on the bottom. More like pouring bleach down their throats or beating them to a pulp.

[JTsMom]

I also do not equate spanking with abuse. I was spanked as a child, and I was abused. Even at 4-5 years old, I knew the difference between my mom spanking me when I deserved it and my dad smacking me around.

I just wanted to say that is not my quote. I think it is something I quoted from someone else (although I don't think it's going to show up here now). Ah well, I tried! If you trace it back, you'll see what I mean.

[kboyle]

i was spanked, i do occasionally spank and my boys are hitters...well, they would never hit other kids, though they do battle it out between each other. i will admit, dh & the boys have a wrestling hour when he gets home from work where they roll around & the boys run at dh, etc...so i guess they are used to rough play anyway. when my boys get into fights with each other they usually end up with fists or slaps...though once they are done and the crying is over they are happily playing side by side once again. i have NEVER seen them hit another child. my kids have rarely, if ever (maybe once or twice) attempted to hit me or dh. they really only hit each other, and honestly, i'm ok with it. 2 brothers battling it out isn't uncommon.

oh, and i don't spank nearly as much as i got spanked. my kids do know the difference between the "i don't think so" swat on the hands when they reach for the stove/stick fingers or toys in the electrical outlets/etc vs the "you are SO in trouble" smack on the butt that they receive for running off in the store/running off into street or parking lot/hitting a brother that wasn't expecting it/hitting to be mean and acting alone, not fighting on a mutual ground, lol. i can look at them and they KNOW which they'll get. just that alone will stop the naughty behavior.

eta: now when i used to get spanked as a child i never once felt abused nor did i think that my parents didnt care, which i also believe is how my children feel. just telling them that they are disobeying and that i may tell dh or dh may tell me will ususally result in the stopping of the behavior.