My friends are out of control!

[Globetrotter]

I know this is a mind your own business situation, but it's really bothering me.

A friend of mine used to live in our neighborhood. She told me they couldn't afford to live here so they moved to a "less expensive locale". In the end they spent WAY over their limits on a new house back in December. She told me they were looking in the 800's and here you could barely get a shack for that, which is true. Apparently, the financing is better for new homes and, at the time, they got a "good deal" on a 1.2 million house. I don't know what they paid, but it can't be much less than a million or thereabouts (maybe 900s at least). At first she was looking at the smallest model (which was stretching their limits) and in the end she got one of the largest! WTH??

I know that they had bad credit, and she just had a third child and told me to PRAY for them because she didn't know how they were going to afford it!!!!! Here I was thinking they were in trouble and feeling sorry for them, wishing I hadn't donated my baby stuff, and then....

I went to their house and she showed me their new furniture (our house, which we moved into eight years ago, is still not fully furnished and we have some stuff from our student days!!). Her husband accidentally "got rid of" some of the old baby stuff another friend gave her so they bought new items. Before they moved they bought a brand new loaded Toyota minivan (granted, she needed a van with the third kid, but couldn't she have looked at a used one, as I suggested?? or maybe a basic model, like I have). Today I saw they were driving a freaking MERCEDES!!!!

Her dh is a software manager and she is a SAHM without any marketable skills. We are headed into a recession and heaven forbid he should lose his job. I honestly don't know what they would do. I am no saint. I certainly love my deals and love to shop, but goodness gracious... my dh has been working a lot longer and probably makes more than hers does, but I cannot even dream of that lifestyle. I spend a lot of effort to get good deals and we buy basic cars, don't replace appliances until they break, and so on. I have no problem with someone splurging if they can afford to do so, but this is really frightening to me. They have three wonderful children - what kind of example is this?

Ok, back to minding my own business. Thanks for letting me vent!

Kris

[niccig]

I hear you. It's crazy decision making and keeping up with the Joneses. Lately, I'm become more concerned about stuff that we have and how that impacts on DS. My DH can be a little like your friends, he likes new things, but he doesn't go super crazy like that.

I hope things don't go bottom up for them. And I hope that you don't have to keep hearing complaints about how little money they have - they're adults that made decisions that have consequences - like super high monthly repayments - they have to deal with that.

[Melanie]

It's like you get emotionally invested in their problem, you feel so badly. It wrenches your heart, you brainstorm (maybe just inwardly) how to help. Then they turn around and drop more bucks than you, who is not complaining, could ever imagine. Almost as if your sympathetic ear and emotions were all a waste.

[Laurel]

Are you friends with my friends? I know a family just like that! It wouldn't be so annoying if they weren't so TMI about their money issues. Makes me so mad!!!

Anyway, you're not alone.

[SnuggleBuggles]

It's like you get emotionally invested in their problem, you feel so badly. It wrenches your heart, you brainstorm (maybe just inwardly) how to help. Then they turn around and drop more bucks than you, who is not complaining, could ever imagine. Almost as if your sympathetic ear and emotions were all a waste.

That's how I feel about it too.

I just don't get how they could ever feel relaxed about life. Maybe they do a really good job ignoring the debt?

Beth

[ritacheetah]

I have a friend like that. Last time I talked to her she told me (among other things) that her aquarium had a "mold" (her words) problem. They couldn't get ahold of the person to clean it for a week so they THREW THE WHOLE THING AWAY and spent $900 on a brand new one. Apparently cleaning it themselves was not an option. I usually just laugh and congratulate her for singlehandedly keeping the economy going.

[bethie_73]

OMG is that my BIL and SIL????? I just don't know how to react to them. they are in such money troubles but they can buy a new top of the line Macbook and go out to eat every night.

Its hard because I want to help, but I have 3 mortgage payments (my new house, my old house that still hasn't sold... but that is another bitch, and DH's student loans, yes we owe that much) and we finally broke down and bought a car so we have a car payment. DH and I are sick about being in debt at all so this is killing us.

Where does the money come from? and can I get some. I just don't understand people, and sometimes I think they are just trying to make me feel sorry for them :(

[Kungjo]

I would love to have some of the stuff that the Joneses of the world have, but I wouldn't be able to sleep if we spent like that. I would be too worried about making the payments.

I just don't get how some people can do that and not worry about where the money to pay for all this stuff will come from.

[ritacheetah]

OK, they did make the big sacrafice to give up going out to eat on Friday night so they could pay for a housecleaner for their huge house. So now they only go out to eat on Saturday and Sunday nights. I just laugh...

[WatchingThemGrow]

When friends ask me to pray for them, then turn around and do something like that, I try to call them out in a loving way. As hard as it is to do/accept from someone else, it does help in keeping one another in check and accountable.

They could be in for some real trouble in the future. I'd say something to help them rethink this pattern. I appreciate it when MY friends do it to me... Like when they point out I'm reading/buying too much stuff online.

[Ceepa]

Wow. They're screwed.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Wow. They're screwed.

Nah, the government will bail them out in some way with our taxpayer money. This type of thing really pisses me off. No matter what my income has been I never , ever overcommited to a mortgage or rent payment. Sorry, this is a VERY sore subject for me.

[MamaMolly]

When friends ask me to pray for them, then turn around and do something like that, I try to call them out in a loving way. As hard as it is to do/accept from someone else, it does help in keeping one another in check and accountable.

They could be in for some real trouble in the future. I'd say something to help them rethink this pattern. I appreciate it when MY friends do it to me... Like when they point out I'm reading/buying too much stuff online.

ITA! If they are close enough to you to ask you to pray for them, then why not have a word with her? A kind reminder about her asking for your help (which your prayers are IMO) and then ask her why they are making the financial choices that they are making?

A sincere and loving friend might be able to really reach out and help them. Let her know you are worried and you care. Good luck!

[Pennylane]

I love people like this. They get themselves way over extended but keep on spending. Half of our neighbors are like this. My next door neighbor told me a few weeks ago that they are fighting forclosure, yet she still has a cleaning person and someone doing their yard!!!

I am so proud of the fact that my DH and I have no debt other than a mortgage. We'd love to have a boat, do some renovations on our house, etc but we only do things when we have the cash.

Ann

[bethie_73]

Nah, the government will bail them out in some way with our taxpayer money. This type of thing really pisses me off. No matter what my income has been I never , ever overcommited to a mortgage or rent payment. Sorry, this is a VERY sore subject for me.

Sore subject for me too since my other house is in the land of foreclosures and its been on the market for over a year :32:

[elaineandmichaelsmommy]

Sore subject for me too since my other house is in the land of foreclosures and its been on the market for over a year :32:



Ummm. not to pry but I was just wondering. If it's been on the market that long why not get a renter and at least not have a forlclosure on your credit history.

That's what my sis and bil did with their condo that they couldn't sell.

[Melanie]

I'm not sure, but I think she meant since her house is where all the others are in foreclosure, it's very hard to sell. I remember when we were househunting around here the regular people selling their homes looked so ridiculous with their 'market value' asking price when there were 3 other houses just like undervalued by 10s of thousands b/c they were in foreclosure or wanting a short sale. :( it's a good time to be a buyer, though!

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

Sore subject for me too since my other house is in the land of foreclosures and its been on the market for over a year :32:


Bethie, that stinks, I am so sorry!

[DrSally]

A lot of people live like this, way above their means. This consummeristic/materialistic culture really leads people to believe they aren't fulfilled unless they have "stuff", and usually high prestige items. There's not much you can do to persuade them to live differently, it's their choice.

[bethie_73]

I'm not sure, but I think she meant since her house is where all the others are in foreclosure, it's very hard to sell. I remember when we were househunting around here the regular people selling their homes looked so ridiculous with their 'market value' asking price when there were 3 other houses just like undervalued by 10s of thousands b/c they were in foreclosure or wanting a short sale. :( it's a good time to be a buyer, though!


Exactly. We can hold the house indefinitely, because we actually bought a house we can afford. We may end up renting it out, but I know it will get destroyed and that just kills me. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this post.

[StantonHyde]

Keeping up appearances is a HUGE issue in my state. We have one of the leading #s of bankruptcies. People just buy huge houses, cars, etc. DH is an ER MD. He came home one night and said he realized that we drive older cars than any of the nurses.

Sure, we could spend but, honestly, I have everything I NEED. Besides we have to set up our own retirement--private practice firm so no pension etc. And we have to save for the kids to go to college. We did the cheapest house in teh best neighborhood thing and we are gradually remodeling as we can pay cash for it or pay off small home equity loans.

It just amazes me to see people who I know make a lot less with much more new (and more expensive) stuff. And it really torques me that people get bail outs so they don't have to pay the consequences. I guess what really gets me is people who get bail outs from family etc who then get ticked when IL's tell them how to spend. If you are self-sufficient, do what you want. Once you are dependent on people, they have the right to comment.

[khm]

Exactly. We can hold the house indefinitely, because we actually bought a house we can afford. We may end up renting it out, but I know it will get destroyed and that just kills me. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack this post.

Aww, I'm sorry. That does suck.

I think I'd bit the bullet and rent it. Lots and lots of nice families rent. Once they leave, a quick run-through with a some paint etc. and and you are probably good as new!

Plus, you could wait to sell when prices go back UP and make considerably more money!

[Globetrotter]

Thanks for listening! It's scary that this seems to be a common problem. When I was WOH, I had friends in other departments who couldn't go out to lunch until payday because they were broke, yet they drove luxury cars!

I can't stand the competition, really. Like I said, I am NO saint but I really don't care about keeping up with my neighbors! (we can't afford to do that, in any case)

I don't see this friend so much anymore, but one day I might be inspired to say something out of worry, maybe venting our own financial concerns, like saving for retirement/college/emergencies.

[snowbunnies300]

I am not going to defend living outside of ones means but I wonder about your friends family. If she was looking at the smaller model home could it be that extended family placed pressure on her and her DH to buy the larger home? Same with the vehicle. I know that parents can place huge pressure on their children to make decisions that they "feel" are the right ones to make. It's possible that family told them they were making a huge mistake in not buying a bigger house (my parents told me the same thing) as with 3 kids they will find they need more room etc.. As for the vehicle there are people who just cannot bring themselves to buy a used car as all their life they have heard from family that it is a huge mistake.

Again not defending your friend as she needs to make her own decisions and live by the consequences but depending on the extended family demension it could be very difficult. I know I get a certain "look" when I mention something about my house that is negative (need more storage space). Her family could be worse than the "look".

[Globetrotter]

I am not going to defend living outside of ones means but I wonder about your friends family. If she was looking at the smaller model home could it be that extended family placed pressure on her and her DH to buy the larger home? Same with the vehicle.

Sure, I hear what you're saying, but honestly... does she really NEED a brand new 3300 sq. ft house? I don't expect her to squeeze into a 1600 sq. ft. house, either, which is what they were barely affording here (fixer upper, at that). But surely there is a happy medium? My house is 2300 sq. ft. and there is more than enough space for a large family.

Does she have to buy the fully loaded minivan? I do agree that her sedan was too small, but if space is the issue you can find less expensive options, even if you buy new, IYKWIM. And I was truly floored to see them roll around with a new Mercedes sedan!! Her dh got one of their old cars through his work, so they just lost that one when he changed his job. It's not like they even sold the old one to help pay for the Mercedes.

Her family lives overseas and wasn't around during all this, but you are right in one thing.... I do suspect that she grew up in a huge house and that's her expectation!! I think there is also a fair amount of keeping up with the Joneses, needless to say. It doesn't work in the Bay Area. Even we have adjusted our expectations to live here and, as you said, my family has questioned a lot of our decisions and wonders why we don't buy this and that, but they live in an inexpensive part of the country so they can afford to live that lifestyle :)

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

"If she was looking at the smaller model home could it be that extended family placed pressure on her and her DH to buy the larger home? Same with the vehicle. I know that parents can place huge pressure on their children to make decisions that they "feel" are the right ones to make."


You have got to be kidding me! If anything, most parents I know would be urging adult children to be sure they are not overextending themselves.

[ChunkyNicksChunkyMom]

[QUOTE=StantonHyde]Keeping up appearances is a HUGE issue in my state.


I needed to go to your profile to see where you lived and was very surprised to see Utah! I lived in Ogden for a while and that was not the case in my area. I whole heartedly agree with everything else you said in your post!!!!

[elizabethkott]

Ummmmm. Yeah.
See all previous "Jones Family" posts. :)
And here's a little tidbit to sneak in here:
Mr. Jones told DH that he's finally getting a leather club chair and ottoman "JUST LIKE YOURS"!!!!!
+$33,000 new kitchen
+ Mrs. Jones' tuition for an extra certificate that doesn't present more earning power
+ babysitter 3 days a week so Mrs. Jones can go to said classes
+ dinners out and concerts in NYC (the most recent one was this past Saturday - it started at 10:30pm - when I went to SLEEP, but I digress)
+ their swanky health club memberships
+ an extra morning of the babysitter so they can go work out together on the weekend
+...
+...
+...
Yeah. The dipstick of sympathy has run dry.

[gatorsmom]

Aww, I'm sorry. That does suck.

I think I'd bit the bullet and rent it. Lots and lots of nice families rent. Once they leave, a quick run-through with a some paint etc. and and you are probably good as new!

Plus, you could wait to sell when prices go back UP and make considerably more money!

We have rental properties. And I"m sad to say that the number of families that TRASH our rental homes by far outweighs the number of families that take care of our houses. And we aren't slumlords! These are nice homes in nice neighborhoods. I guess it's something about the fact that these families don't own the house makes them feel like they can treat it badly. Very depressing. I would have a hard time renting out a house I lived in too.

[khm]

We have rental properties. And I"m sad to say that the number of families that TRASH our rental homes by far outweighs the number of families that take care of our houses. And we aren't slumlords! These are nice homes in nice neighborhoods. I guess it's something about the fact that these families don't own the house makes them feel like they can treat it badly. Very depressing. I would have a hard time renting out a house I lived in too.

Wow. That's horrible. I'm stupified that so many people would do that. :(

[salsah]

A lot of people live like this, way above their means. This consummeristic/materialistic culture really leads people to believe they aren't fulfilled unless they have "stuff", and usually high prestige items. There's not much you can do to persuade them to live differently, it's their choice.

well put. i know many people like that and there is no hope of changing them. the best you can do is pray for them.

our culture has become increasingly materialistic. too many people are too concerned with keeping up appearances and showing off that they have the latest and greatest (meaning most expensive). i see how it drains some people not just financially but also emotionally. it is so sad.

we have better things to worry about / spend our time on. not to mention better things to spend our money on -- collectively not individually. there are still people in third world countries (and in developed conuntries) who need money for food, medicine, education. i can't justify buying a handbag that cost as much money as would be needed to feed a family in africa for one year.

don't even get me started on our system. i knew a woman on welfare who had a big screen tv among other things that i couldn't afford at the time (we were students then). and to make it worse, her son was obviously not well taken care of. so sad.

is it true that people accumulate debt then file for bankruptcy and have all their debt forgiven?

i have gotten carried away again. i have to stop rambling! seems i've been doing that a lot lately.

[KrisM]

A lot of people live like this, way above their means. This consummeristic/materialistic culture really leads people to believe they aren't fulfilled unless they have "stuff", and usually high prestige items. There's not much you can do to persuade them to live differently, it's their choice.

I agree. With my friends who are like this though, they don't even understand that they are making those choices and we are not.

She comments on how "lucky" I am to be living in a less expensive area than she (we're on opposite sides of Metro Detroit). Well, she picked that place for the great schools. Our schools are good, but hers are better. We decided we'd rather have a house we could afford than go broke for better schools. And, we picked the 2200 sq. ft used house and they got the 3500 sq ft. brand new house. We drive 2 cars; they drive a minivan and an SUV. We haven't had a vacation in years, other than to my parents cottage 2 hours away; they fly somewhere for skiing, etc 2-3 times a year. The lists go on and on.

They have 2 engineering incomes and we have 1 and I stay home. Again, to her I am "lucky" to be able to stay home. I do think I'm fortunate that we are able to make it work, but it's because of our choices, not our "luck".

[lizajane]

I agree. With my friends who are like this though, they don't even understand that they are making those choices and we are not.

She comments on how "lucky" I am to be living in a less expensive area than she (we're on opposite sides of Metro Detroit). Well, she picked that place for the great schools. Our schools are good, but hers are better. We decided we'd rather have a house we could afford than go broke for better schools. And, we picked the 2200 sq. ft used house and they got the 3500 sq ft. brand new house. We drive 2 cars; they drive a minivan and an SUV. We haven't had a vacation in years, other than to my parents cottage 2 hours away; they fly somewhere for skiing, etc 2-3 times a year. The lists go on and on.

They have 2 engineering incomes and we have 1 and I stay home. Again, to her I am "lucky" to be able to stay home. I do think I'm fortunate that we are able to make it work, but it's because of our choices, not our "luck".

it really bugs me when people say you are "lucky" because the CHOICES you make have allowed you to have what you need AND want. sure i want a new fridge. but i don't need it. and what i REALLY want is to not work outside the home. so that is what i have. what i want. what i need. not LUCKY because we PLANNED it. lucky is when you have really great hair! ;)

[KBecks]

I don't personally know anyone who lives like that, but I'm sure there are lots and lots of people who are overextended. It makes me sad because of the stress I imagine they feel at times.

They will be OK if things change, but the adjustment / landing will be rough. People adapt. I'm sorry you have to stand by and watch though, I'm sure it's difficult to do that.

[JillSP]

is it true that people accumulate debt then file for bankruptcy and have all their debt forgiven?



There are probably people out there who have rang up bills and then declared bankruptcy, but I think these people are few and far between. There are huge implications from filing bankruptcy--your credit is pretty much ruined for at least 7 years--so I don't think people do it willy nilly.

Also, with the bankruptcy reform a few year ago, it is much harder to have all of your debt wiped out (and you can never ever get student loans wiped out because there were people abusing that way back in the 70s and 80s).

I read a law review article a few years ago that looked at bankruptcy filings. The scariest finding for me (and I did not even have children at the time) was that the biggest determinating factor of whether a peson would end up in bankruptcy was CHILDREN. I can't remember all of the details, but controlling for everything else, a person who had children was statistically more likely to end up in bankruptcy.

Now that I have children, I can understand it. So many things can go wrong, and once you have children, if something does go wrong it is going to cost you a whole lot more.

[alleyoop]

They have 2 engineering incomes and we have 1 and I stay home. Again, to her I am "lucky" to be able to stay home. I do think I'm fortunate that we are able to make it work, but it's because of our choices, not our "luck".


Totally agree with this. We have worked really hard and had to make many a sacrifice so that I could stay home. It was our choice. I get really mad when I run into other moms at the park or whatever that say I am so "Lucky" to stay home. Yet, here they are in their designer cloths, talking on their expensive iPhone, drove up in BMW SUV. There is me, in my Target cloths, no cell phone at all, drove in Prius or beat up minivan. I have much sympathy for moms that really CAN NOT afford to stay at home if they wanted to... but these people look to me like they are working to afford a lifestyle.

[KrisM]

Totally agree with this. We have worked really hard and had to make many a sacrifice so that I could stay home. It was our choice. I get really mad when I run into other moms at the park or whatever that say I am so "Lucky" to stay home. Yet, here they are in their designer cloths, talking on their expensive iPhone, drove up in BMW SUV. There is me, in my Target cloths, no cell phone at all, drove in Prius or beat up minivan. I have much sympathy for moms that really CAN NOT afford to stay at home if they wanted to... but these people look to me like they are working to afford a lifestyle.

That's me, too! My friend and I often meet at an upscale mall, due to its location. I walk around with her, while she shops. She buys clothes for her kids at Nordstroms, Macys, Baby Gap, etc. My kids often have clothes from those stores, but they're purchased at a mom2mom sale or garage sale!

[salsah]

That's me, too! My friend and I often meet at an upscale mall, due to its location. I walk around with her, while she shops. She buys clothes for her kids at Nordstroms, Macys, Baby Gap, etc. My kids often have clothes from those stores, but they're purchased at a mom2mom sale or garage sale!

that's not bad. my friends will not even go into macys or gap (typical mall stores are beneath them). they only buy high end designer clothes -- even for the kids.

[kijip]

It is tough to watch people do truly dumb things. The consumerism we see on an individual level has grossly impacted our entire culture and economy. To the point that the gov't, to avert recession (futile effort) cuts people checks (which are debt) to go and spend. Like we can buy ourselves out of a recession. Well, we have been buying, buying buying and look where we are?!

It is reckless to live that far beyond their means and the house of cards will fall, like it does for many. Maybe not now, but when their kids realize they are on their own for college because their parents are broke but make too much for them to get grants. When their own parents die and they can't afford the funeral because they are maxed out. When they get foreclosed on and end up living with their relatives. They are not going to change anything at all, likely ever, but if they do it will be because they truly hit rock bottom.

We live with no debt other than our mortgage, in what most would consider a tiny home (around 1400 sf, including garage). But I can pay my mortgage without a worry and live in the city I want to live in and benefit from the family closeness a small house helps cement. We don't consider the house tiny, because we are used to smaller apartments. The average 1950s young family had a house around 1100 or so sf and had more kids on average than we do. What is it that has changed to the point people feel like they NEED a bathroom the size of a den or a den the size of a bedroom and bedrooms with sitting areas and enough room for a cal king bed? We drive one car, paid cash for it and consider it a huge, decadent, splurge to have a Camry instead of a Corolla. Instead of taking the money (which would be cash, not debt) and buying a set of new chairs for the living room, we got 2 fabulously vintage chairs for a total of $60 off of craigslist. I get stuff off of freecycle all the time. We splurge on things we really want. We can afford all of our needs and most of what we really want, yet when certain of my relatives get wind from my parents or whatever roughly how much $$ we make, they are staggered that we would not being driving a fancier car or living in a bigger, suburban house. Floored that we would be growing our own food and buying chickens, a bit embarrassed for our son when they hear about his used or ubersale rack clothes. Honestly, it is them that should be embarrassed- maxed out for swimming pools, big flashy cars and private school tuition they can't afford.

[kijip]

"If she was looking at the smaller model home could it be that extended family placed pressure on her and her DH to buy the larger home? Same with the vehicle. I know that parents can place huge pressure on their children to make decisions that they "feel" are the right ones to make."


You have got to be kidding me! If anything, most parents I know would be urging adult children to be sure they are not overextending themselves.

ITA, Susan. While perhaps some people come from well off families who encourage the keeping up the joneses thing, most of our parents grew up with a generally different set of values...my dad was raised in a comfortable middle class family and his parents had 9 children in 20 years and raised them in a 1500 sf or so post WWII box house. They made walls in the basement and finished it when their older kids (my dad was the oldest and in high school at this time) constructed walls out of refrigerator boxes and moved their beds to the basement.

ETA: Also even if there is family pressure, adults can make other choices than their parents. If my dad has his way, we would live on a farm with him. If my mom had her way, we would live in a neighborhood I dislike in a house for her to have her own MIL space. If my MIL had her way, we would live in Spokane. If I bought cars according to my SFILs preferences, we would lease a Lexus SUV. But we are grown adults and perfectly capable of choosing our own way, saying that's not what we want/how we roll sorry mom, sorry dad. My husband comes from a family that loved new, new, new stuff over all else and he is the total opposite of that mentality. It took some leaning for him to adjust his spending habits (we don't make the $200K+ a year his parents did by far) but now we are in sync on this stuff, perhaps with him being more a penny pincher than me as I have a tendency to want to make sure Toby does not have any trace of the poverty I was raised in.

[niccig]

ITA, Susan. While perhaps some people come from well off families who encourage the keeping up the joneses thing, most of our parents grew up with a generally different set of values.

This is me and DH. He was raised with more new things and I was raised with buying something and keeping it forever. It's created tension between us as he wants to replace things with the next new thing and I don't. We're getting better at compromising. DH wants to replace our TV, he works in the entertainment industry and apparently people much junior than him have flat screen high def TVs. Ours is about 8 years old. We were talking about it, and he said that we could wait another year or two before replacing ours and that we should start to save for it - I was floored, it's a very different attitude than 5 years ago.