Barbies and Princess, Good for our DDs?

[ha98ed14]

I was reading the b-day present thread and saw a post from a mom who does not allow barbies and disney princess toys for her DD. My mom had the same rule for my sister and I. We never had Barbies. Her reason was that the barbie image was oversexualized and an unrealistic picture of what a woman's body should look like. But I have never ever met someone, as a child or adult, who had the same rule. My mom "compromised" and we got My Little Ponies because we wanted to do their hair and make them act out scenes.

My niece has some barbies and disney princess dolls, but what she is really into is princess dress-up. She has tons and tons of dress up clothes. Lots of the little girls I know between 3 and 5 are into "being princesses." I was at the party supply store yesterday and that is the main theme for girls parties beyond the gender neutral Dora/ Diego and Backyardigans.

My DD (10 mos) doesn't play with this stuff yet, but I am debating what to do for her. Should I have the same rule as my mom? The Princess theme bothers me because it sends the message that being a princess is desirable. I associate "princess" with spoiled, overly concerned with being pretty, and waiting for a true love/ prince to come rescue/ take care of her. I am not interested in cultivating these ideas/ traits in her. But I am curious about others' experiences and opinions of these toys for their DDs.

[new_mommy25]

When I was a kid I had about 3-4 Barbies. My mom never bought them for me but she did allow me to keep whatever I recieved as gifts. I loved Barbies and never understood why, until now.

I'll probably do the same for my DD but I don't know. I really don't think Barbies are *that* bad.

[egoldber]

I had tons of Barbies as a young girl. For me though it was all about the accessories and the gear! I loved the camper van with a passion I can hardly describe. And the country house. Sigh.

Personally, I think the toys are less important than the messages we send our daughters through our own behavior because that is what they will model. If we don't allow Barbies or Disney Princess, but at the the same time send the message that we are worthless unless we look a certain way, dress a certain way and weigh a certain weight, which message has a greater impact?

[janeybwild]

As a mom of 2 DDs I’ve often thought of this. But, there is a sense of the inevitable for me. We started out with a general no princess emphasis, but dress up began, and what do they want to dress up in? Princess clothes. I value the make believe play enough to be OK with that. Where I draw the line is any make believe where DD is “rescued” by the prince. That’s actually where Barbie comes in these days. The most recent Barbie movies are very girl empowering IMO. Barbie as a chosen fairytale character ends up rescuing everyone, men and all. We try to stay away from Disney Princess to some degree because of the role model they set (beauty is all, although kindness is valued too). So, for me, balance is the key. I won’t dictate no Barbies here, but I won’t be rushing out to buy them either. And I will continue to keep the dress up box stuffed full of non-princess items too :)

[momof2girls]

I have 2 DDs. My oldest is 5 and has always been into princesses, not so much Barbie. I am a low-maintenance kind of gal, but DD has always wanted to wear dresses and dance around the house trying to be like a princess. Her friends at her preschool are also very into princesses. In the past she had mentioned to me about princesses being beautiful and with long blonde hair (she has brown). I explained to her that in reality, you do not have to look a certain way to be a good person and that no one we know and love actually looks like Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, etc. There was a documentary on the British royals on TV and I showed her a "real" Queen and princes. She was disappointed to say the least. Additionally, at her age she is knows the difference between cartoons and real people and I see no "damage" to her sense self-worth. They do dress up at school where the girls can wear bridal gowns and princess and ballerina dresses. I don't know how I would have been able to keep her from that activity even if I wanted. I have noticed she outgrowing it a bit and moving on to other things like Hannah Montana which she is learning about from her friends at school who have older siblings.
My 2.5 yr old DD, is exposed to all the princess stuff from DD#1, but is not really interested. I don't force it on her nor do I keep her from it.

HTH

[kellyd]

I believe I had 86 barbie dolls and about 6 ken dolls growing up. I still have the majority of my barbie items and plan to pass them onto any daughters I may have. I have listened to the arguements against barbies, but personally never figured out what the fuss was about. Barbie was make believe. In real life my mom raised me to be a strong socially concious adult woman. Playing with Barbies for years didn't hurt that in any way. As a matter of fact I still have a vivid imagination at 30 and think that all those years of make believe helped that.

[SnuggleBuggles]

No dds here but if I had them I would have no problems at all with Barbies. I don't have any problems with the princesses because, well, I don't think the princess fantasy is a horrible one. It's something they'll pick up from books even if you don't have the toys. I think that it is a much bigger issue if you trat dd like a little princess and wait on her every desire. But, for a girl to play act things like waiting for a prince or being pretty really isn't going to cause long term problems, imo. I do not have the same negative association with princess, I guess.

I did just read a chick lit book where the girl was waiting, basically, for a prince. But, I tend to think that by the time people grow up they are more objective and smarter about that sort of thing. They outgrow the fantasy of being a princess.

Barbies? I have never gotten the scorn over Barbie. I have a perfectly healthy self image despite playing with Barbie from like age 3-10. I loved that Barbie was just cool. She could do anything. She could be a rock star, a vet, a Dr., a business woman, an astronaut (I had all of those Barbies). She also got to live in a kick butt house that, in my world, she paid for herself (Ken was just someone she dated so they didn't share $ :)), she drove a great car...things that seem like they make for vibrant, self sufficient women. Yeah, she was beautiful but some people just are. I always thought the oversexualization and unrealistic body image stuff was blown way out of proportion. It never entered into my mind as a kid. Barbie was just a vessel, like any doll, for acting out different life scenarios. She was a fun, open ended toy.

I do have a problem with Bratz and my dcs wouldn't be allowed to play with them. My ds has asked for them and I said no. It's the whole name, their slogans and things that like that are just really off putting to me. In comparison to Bratz, Barbie seems downright wholesome. :)

I didn't have any friends IRL who weren't allowed to play with Barbies growing up. I should ask my adult friends about that sometime. All seem to be letting their dds play with them though. My childhood friends all seem to be happy, healthy, well adjusted people with good careers, relationships and healthy body issues. I don't think that Barbie caused irreprable harm.

Beth

[wellyes]

My daughter is just two weeks old and I'm already dreading this princess fad - hoping it dies out before she is old enough to get sucked in. What is the value of princesshood? You are beautiful, wealthy, the most special girl in the world, wear a variety of sparkly gowns and, yes, wait for your prince to rescue you. Nothing positive that I can think of.

As for Barbies..... the princess thing is really media-driven (Disney) but a doll doesn't have to be. I had a few barbies as a kid and they regularly got into adventures with my GI Joes, Strawberry Shortcakes and my brother's old Star Wars "action figures".

I feel like a toy can be a vehicle for imaginative play, whereas the princess fantasy presents potential role model issues for little girls.

[misshollygolightly]

I like what the PP said about the importance of the messages we send our kids through our own actions/words. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about princesses, etc. I had lots of princess-y, dress-up, Barbie-ish things, and it really stimulated my imagination. My parents always emphasized that the things that make a person truly valuable (i.e., a 'real princess') are intangible: treating others with kindness and dignity, having self-confidence, etc. Also, playing at being a 'princess' allowed me to practice things like good manners (lots of imaginary tea parties!) :-) As she grows older, you might want to introduce your DD to some of the more positive princesss messages through things like Frances Hodgson Burnett's classic book _A Little Princess_ which emphasizes imagination, generosity, self-worth, and friendship as truly royal qualities (instead of bossy-ness, material wealth, and depending on a Ken-doll-in-shining-armor!). I think this would probably be easier than trying to ban princess-play and Barbies from your DD's life entirely. Good luck--whatever you decide!

[ellies mom]

I loved Barbie growing up, but like Beth it was more about what she came with rather than how she looked. I loved making stuff for her also. She was more like a stepping off point creativity-wise. So I have never had a big problem with her.

Now, Disney Princesses. I did find myself struggling there for a while because of the whole princess in need of rescue thing. For example, Cinderella, while she is really nice, spends "most" of the movie crying waiting to be rescued. And it drove me nuts. You know, the whole I don't want my daughter to think that nice girls are passive and blah-blah-blah. Then I realized that I was projecting my grown-up feminist views back on the movies. When I really thought about how I saw Cinderella as a child and what I really got out of it, I realized that all I really took away was the singing mice and "Bippidy-Boppidy-Boo" and nothing more. So now, I let Ellie watch the Disney Princess movies and I do buy her princess dress up clothes (not Disney brand but generic clothes). And I let her be a princess because it is fun. But I also make sure that I expose her to princesses that don't need to be rescued, such as Violetta in The Princess Knight or the Paper Bag Princess. And I try to set the example that girls are strong and capable and that we can do the things we want to do without waiting for someone to do it for us.

[mom2binsd]

Like the previous Beth I coveted my Barbie gear (I also had the camper...it's still carefully preserved at my dad's house...vinyl sleeping bag and all!). I mixed the dolls with my brother Dukes of Hazzard smash up derby too...my DD who is almost 5 does the same...she has her Barbies, My little ponies, and the small plastic animal figurines all playing together, hiding, making forts while she dresses up in all kinds of crazy things (she loves to wear my old figure skating competition dresses which are covered in beads...I was very tiny so they fit her), her little brother gets dressed up in princess crowns on occasion too but whatever...they are using their imagination and having fun! I trust that as they grow they will be able to distinguish real from imaginary and that they will have happy memories of childhood-I loved mine!!!!

[californiagirl]

DD is all about princesses, but we don't do Disney princesses at home. We do lots of other princesses, though. And dragons.

And we don't have any Barbies, but she got some Polly Pockets for her birthday, and she has some Playmobil. They make a knight with pink trappings who DD thinks is OBVIOUSLY a princess. With a horse, even.

ETA: I grew up with a "No Barbies" rule, too. I played with Barbies at friends' houses and had other dolls -- it didn't bother me that much, because I didn't like regular Barbies. I did want the one with bendable knees, though. And there was something about all those accessories...

[MamaMolly]

I was just coming to post the books: (and I see folks have already beat me to it! :) )
A Little Princess
Paperbag Princess
And now I'm going to order a couple of the other ones that I hadn't heard of yet. I love this board!

I loved my Barbies and all their gear and accessories. I never cared for the Barbie brand toys, they always seemed like cheap plastic-y junk that they slapped a Barbie label on. But the airplane, the camper, the dreamhouse, the shoes, the clothes! It was so much fun to have a 'grown up' doll that we could make up great stories about. Baby dolls were for nurturing but Barbie got to do cool stuff and drive a car just like a grown up!

I think the PPs have put things well for me. I don't care for the message from the Brats dolls. I think they ARE bratty and it's not an image I want my DD to follow, so we will avoid those. But princesses/Barbie seem harmless enough. I'm not crazy about Disney princesses but that is mostly because I don't like character marketing. DD is 18 mos. and just figured out who Elmo is (Thanks Grandma!) so we have just put our foot on that slippery slope.

Interesting thread!

[fivi2]

There is a great book on the topic (not just this topic, but this and others) called Packaging Girlhood. I highly recommend it.

I was not allowed to play with Barbies growing up (didn't bother me at all). I am in theory against Barbies and Disney Princesses (well, tbh I don't really like any character toys), but I know our relatives will give them to my girls (I have 2 y.o. twins - girls) I don't know how I will handle that. My girls at this point do have sparkly dress up stuff, including tutus and crowns, but no characters. We do watch some tv, but again no disney or barbie stuff. They seem more into other things at this point. I am sure I will revisit this once they start school and see what their frieds get to play with, though.

I honestly do think that *in general* barbies, disney princesses, bratz, etc promote an unhealthy body image and encourage girls to be passive. OF COURSE there are exceptions, and not every girl will be affected. And I don't think that having barbies in the house or not is the only thing that will influence how my daughters turn out, but I do think it has some influence.

There was a great thread on this topic on MDC (people on both sides of the issue) a while back, but their server is down today. At the end of the thread there was a long list of books that have strong female characters. When the server somes back, I will try to post that list of books. (if anyone is interested).

[MontrealMum]

My parents are both educators and I was raised in the seventies, so they had some unusual rules for me growing up. Including, no barbies. My mom's mom, however, bought me my first when I was five, so that was the end of that. I was also not allowed to play with makeup, have my ears pierced, dye or perm my hair, eat junk food, or watch anything besides PBS. Drinking alcohol in the family from a young age, however, was OK! And I had no curfew as a teenager.

I did not have very good self-esteem until well into my adulthood, but I think that was due more to: having a mother that is built like Barbie (rare, but true), who had very little self-confidence herself, so little, in fact, that she makes herself feel better by putting other people down for their "flaws". Also, my father was verbally abusive when I was a child.

Ironic, isn't it, that they had all sorts of good intentions about exposing me to *bad* things, but their own actions, and words didn't live up to their standards? They are both much better now, but I was rarely praised as a child, and often criticised. That had a much longer lasting effect than Barbies, dress-up, and the make-up my grandmother snuck me.

I agree with Janey, it's what you say and do, more than anything that affects your child's sense of self. Of course, I have a boy, but if he wants to play with Barbies, I will say, go for it!

ETa: now I'm not so sure about some of the other kid's toys out there, but barbies and princess-play I think are OK

[Joolsplus2]

Whoa, Molly, same here! I ate trail mix and played with lincoln logs and watched sesame street...but what had the most effect on me was listening to my mom and dad criticise the tar out of everyone they knew. A couple of barbies and some loving attitude probably would have helped my development much better.... (not that my parents didn't try as hard as they could, but in general...).

I haven't bothered to restrict my girls from Barbie (or HANNAH MONTANA...SQUEEEEEEEL!)or dress up stuff, but we don't watch princess movies (barbie movies are fine, I like those...), and we talk about how being kind and generous makes us more beautiful than blond hair.

:)

[elaineandmichaelsmommy]

So many of the pp's have made such wonderful observations. I have 2 younger sisters so there were tons of barbies and their accessories growing up. As well as my little pony, star brite,she-ra, fp little people,I could go on. Not to mention my brothers things. I heartily agree that they're just toys. Barbie's figure has actually been toned down I think from the ones we played with in the 70's.
Now, that said. We don't allow bratz dolls under any circumstances. And I do take a close look at how the barbies are dressed and how their eyes look. I don't approve of them having the "come hither" look to them. Princesses are fine because like the pp stated-children don't always look at their toys and movies the way we do and I just remember cool singing mice and bibbie bobbidy boo too. If we make a big deal out of it it becomes a big deal.

DD is really into barbie,princess and dress up right now at 5 and I see no end in sight. I actually asked a friend who's a seamstress to make her some new dresses since dd is in a size 6. But that's not to say that dd didn't have a field day at her friends house in the dresses from disneyworld-she just loves dress up. I don't think they really notice the differance to tell you the truth.

[JTsMom]

No DD's here, so maybe I'll be singing a different tune if/when one comes along, but for now I'm with all of you who said messages from mom and dad are way more important than the dolls. I did have Barbies growing up, and I honestly don't believe the way they looked had any effect on me. I also had other dolls- one was even pink and white checkered! They were all just dolls, not something I felt I had to live up to.

Now my mom asking if her butt looked big in certain pants, putting herself down, making comments about others, etc. DID have a big effect on me, so I will try my hardest to avoid that.

I haven't read every word of this thread yet, so I apologize if someone already mentioned it, but Playful Parenting is another good read. It addresses things like playing with guns and Barbies, and why, in the author's opinion, it's ok. It helped me loosen up a lot about play stuff.

[GeekLady]

My sister and I had enough Barbies in our youth to fill a 50 gallon plastic tub with them and their clothes and accessories. We also had American Girls dolls, baby dolls, My Little Ponies, and I had at least half of the She Ra action figures.

Granted, our Barbies actually spent at least 50% of their time in clothes and accessories we made ourselves, occasionally designed to fit into some fictional world or other - The Wheel of Time comes to mind when I was about 12 - and as we got older were used in avant garde scupltures of naked, sometimes headless, barbies posed on barbie cars.

They were dolls. They had no defined character that we knew of, so we were free to make them be any they liked. The clothes and accessories, while heavily concentrated with pink, were reasonably normal and accessible. In fact, She Ra, American Girls, and My Little Pony were the least played with, the presence of distinct characters was inhibitory.

Today, Barbies, Bratz, Hannah Montana, Disney Princesses, these aren't dolls to be whatever you want. They have distinct characters, and usually , and that limits their use in play. You can't make Hannah Montana anyone or anything else to play with - you bought her because she was Hannah Montana. That's the real tragedy with these toys today.

My podling is a boy, but if he was a she, I'd let her have Barbie dolls, but not the videos, games, and other character-defining branded toys. I'd let her watch the disney videos, but not have the branded dolls to play with. And I'd keep a shotgun for warding off Hannah Montana. *shudder*


Rebecca - who has had to be physically restrained from telling her niece what really happens to The Little Mermaid.

[hardysmom]

Yes to princess dress-up, no to Barbie

At first, I tried to avoid all "pre packaged," heavily marketed/branded character toys. No Dora sleeping bags. No Sponge Bob. No Barbie. No Disney Prncesses...

My son had some sensory issues and was late getting to imaginary play. At the time, we were worried about autism. Since he seemed to be drawn to super-heros, I relented an bought several action heros. They were a huge hit and really got him going. He can watch retro shows (Superfriends) occasionally, but really had to create his own story-lines for the characters which are remarkably non-violent. Many more rescues than explosions. No weapons.

Anyway, watching him made me relent on the Disney Princess thing. At least on costumes. Plus, after actually watching the NEW disney princess stuff, it it more about girl power than weakness. We don't really do the figures, just dresses. In addition, we do lots of non-disney costumes. Dragons. Astronauts. Pirates. Fairies. The girls make up their own stories to go along with the play. Often, Belle is a doctor or Cinderella is a princess super-hero who helps Batman catch bad guys.

Point is, it isn't the toys, it is what WE project on them. I still has reservations about Barbie. Don't even get me started on Bratz...

Stephanie
Blythe and Charlotte, 4
Hardy, 6

[brittone2]

I had Barbies and no real body image issues. That said, I am not sure I'll buy them for my DD. There are nice alternatives available now like the Only Hearts Club dolls, etc. that are less sexualized. I think if she really wants that type of doll, we'll start with OHC types of things and try to meet that desire. If it doesn't work I'll have to weigh my options and re-evaluate. I don't intend to introduce Barbie though. Honestly, we shop at very few big box stores in general, so it will be a while before she's even around them (and we have lots of crunchy-ish friends that don't do Barbie either ;) )

Bratz are a definite no-go for me. That I am 100 percent sure about. Never, ever, LOL.

We don't do characters, Disney, etc. here. DS is 4, and so far he really has no clue who most characters are. People always insist that somehow my kid will be a social misfit as a result, but somehow he seems to have tons of friends and the school-aged kids in my neighborhood regularly ask him to come play with them outside. It doesn't seem to result in one bit of social incompetence as many people in our case. (although he does give a blank stare when people like the dentist or store clerks ask him his favorite TV show, etc. ;) )

[s7714]

Rebecca - who has had to be physically restrained from telling her niece what really happens to The Little Mermaid.

LMAO! I saw a video with the "real" Little Mermaid story when I was a kid (long before the Disneyized version came out). When it did come out, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why all these little girls were so in love with such sad story! Of course then I saw it and realized that it had the new Disneyized happy ending... I often wonder how many kids out there actually know how the real story really ends!

As for the OP question--
I had Barbies growing up and don't feel that they effected my self esteem in the slightest. I always had fun cutting their hair off (I had short hair, so I thought my Barbies should too!) and making stuff for them. I really played with them more from a "what can I creatively make for my Barbie" aspect then actually playing with them in a role-playing type situation. Ken never came to Barbie's rescue in my house. ;) I didn't really grow up with any exposure to Disney Princesses, but I adored reading fairy tales as a child.

I have no problem with my DDs having Barbies or Princess-y things. (Bratz are a major no-no on my list however.) I agree with a lot of the PPs about the importance of instilling the correct image of such things so that DDs don't feel the need to live up to such a unattainable image. And FWIW, my DDs got a couple Barbie videos from Grandma for Easter, and I've actually found them to be more positive image-wise then much of the Disney stuff! Like a PPs said, when the girl is the one solving the problem and coming to rescue the men it's a little easier to swallow!

[GeekLady]

I have no problem with my DDs having Barbies or Princess-y things. (Bratz are a major no-no on my list however.) I agree with a lot of the PPs about the importance of instilling the correct image of such things so that DDs don't feel the need to live up to such a unattainable image.

See, I don't really see Barbies as really oversexualized so much as cartoonish, their blatently exaggerated figures not withstanding

Bratz, on the otherhand, I do see as heavily oversexualized, and they don't need the exaggerated bosoms to achieve this!

Oversexing of attitude and behavior is much, much worse than a doll with ridiculous plastic H cups whose behavior is open ended for play.

[maestramommy]

I tend to really underthink these things. I don't think of buying those toys mainly because I'm not a girly girl. That said, Dora just got her first princess dress as a gift, and she LOVES it, so I'm thrilled for her. When she gets old enough to ask for those types of toys, I'll assess based on price and what exactly it is she wants. I did play with barbies somewhat when I was younger, but they didn't lead to negative body images. Seeing very lean fashionably dressed classmates did.


These days it seems like the princesses in the movies are quite different from the damsels in distress of yesteryear.

[sarahsthreads]

Hm, I played with Barbies a bit growing up, and I definitely remember going through a hopeless romantic phase and play-acting weddings between Barbie and Ken a lot when I was slightly older (10-ish?). I don't really feel like they gave me a negative body image (being chubby and not-so-fashionably dressed in high school did that), and I don't have a problem with DD playing with them once she's older. (I do feel she's a bit young for them at 3, though.)

Princesses were originally on my bad list, but it's more the overmarketing of them that I object to. But, I relented on that this winter when DD came with me to every rehearsal of Beauty and the Beast that I was accompanying. She now has lots of little tiny plastic Belle toys and accessories...and while they held her attention well at rehearsal, honestly she likes her more open-ended toys a lot more. The others will probably all be finding their ways to Goodwill soon. I have less of an issue with princess dress-up than specific princess-themed toys, especially when the princess clothes are balanced with other dress-up clothes like chefs and doctors and witches. ;)

Bratz? Never. Not ever in our house. If DD asks for them I'll explain that they don't fit into our family's values (I've already done this a couple of times with other toys that I didn't feel were appropriate and she accepts that). If she gets one as a gift it will be returned or donated as soon as possible, again with the family value explanation if DD protests. Pretty much everyone we know feels the same about those toys though, so I don't anticipate her getting one as a gift.

In the end (aside from Bratz, obviously) I look at these things as vehicles for play. The more open-ended toys (play kitchen, small dolls/animals for role-playing, dress-up clothes that are not character-specific, blocks, etc) hold a lot more play value and give DD an outlet for her imagination. If she has one or two toys that don't fit that ideal it's not going to hurt her, especially as I've found that she tends to lose interest in toys like that very quickly.

Sarah

[KBecks]

I liked my Barbies and I consider them kind of an open-ended toy, you can make up your own stories, etc. But mostly it's about the outfits. :) I don't see a big problem with Barbies. I do wish she had smaller breasts though!!!

ETA: I wanted, and still want Barbie boobs. LOL.

[cono0507]

I played with my Barbies and they lived in He-Man's Castle of Greyskull I stole from my brother! :) I went through a Barbie phase as a kid, though there definitely wasn't the media innundation with Princess there is now.

[purpleeyes]

Like most of the PP, I'm ok with Barbie (to some extent) TOTALLY not ok with the Bratz, and plan to avoid disney princesses as much as we can. I also see Barbie as a more open ended toy, and the fun part was the house and the camper and the office (remember the barbie that had a 'work suit' that you could flip around into a 'night out' suit? That was my favorite. :)),
Bratz, however, will never be allowed in the house, I don't care who gives it to us (I usually keep things I'm not too fond of if they come from immediate family).
And, finally, I think I have more problems with the character part of "Disney princess" then the princess part. After all, DS has a lot of dress up clothes, including 'boy' ones like truck driver, constructon worker, etc. and I don't think that's a problem. So if DD wants a princess outfit, that's cool.

I do have a problem telling kids about 'boy' things and 'girl' things. They have a stupid disney princess castle in DS's school and now he thinks that is a 'girl' toy. I am upset that those terms have entered his lexicon, and now from time to time I emphasize that you can play with whatever you want!

[dcmom2b3]

But mostly it's about the outfits.

Oh yes. The outfits. Especially the shoes. Barbie didn't harm my self-esteem, but do I think she reinforced my shoe fetish. Since I've passed the shoe gene on to DD, and both grandmothers are busily feeding that beast, I suppose there's no more harm that Barbie could do.

But seriously, others have already stated more eloquently what I believe -- the behavior that parents and other real-life role models display is most influential.

[SnuggleBuggles]

office (remember the barbie that had a 'work suit' that you could flip around into a 'night out' suit? That was my favorite. :)),


I loved that one too! I can picture myself playing w/ her in my playroom right now.
http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/e6/02/4e86_2.JPG

Beth

[american_mama]

Just wanted to say that I loved playing with Barbie as a child, and my friends and I *knew* that Barbie's proportions were ridiculous. We always made fun of her forever walking on tiptoes (shaped that way to accomodate the high heels) and the exaggerated breasts. But still, the imaginary play was fun. I do think it might have fueled a sense that fashion/appearance was important, because picking out and then changing the outfits was a huge part of the play, but I don't think it was a huge influence.

As for princess costumes, I have no problem with any dress up clothes since I think they are good for imaginative play. But I think kids need a range of dress up options, including gender crossing options, so that the dress up box is a treasure trove of possibilities, not just a princess box. And while I have seen beautiful princess dress up outfits, I personally can't justify spending much on them, so that inherently limits their fanciness, newness and prestige, so my girls like them, but don't love them.

Lastly, I have some fear of the forbidden fruit. DD wanted to be a princess for Halloween two years ago. I wasn't in favor of it, suggested a few alternatives, but she was set on princess. I figured, the more I challenge it, the more appealing it will become, so I said ok and sewed a princess skirt, my first sewing project in 10 years. DD saw me working on it for her and was appreciative (and proud of me) and I of myself, so it turned into a really good thing.

I don't allow T shirts that say "Princess," "Diva, "Born to be spoiled" or any slogan like that (or any of many other bragging or fresh slogans). I wouldn't even like it if someone said my daughters were daddy's little princesses. To me, those slogans are related to the princess fascination, but takes only the worst of it (the bossiness, the superficiality, and the girl-who-has-everything image).

[lubdubdeb]

At our house we take each thing on it's own merit. We have decided not to watch or play with The Little Mermaid, because what it boils down to is that Ariel disobeys her father and it works out really well for her in the end. Same with Jasmine. We don't watch Mulan because she lies to the whole army, something I am trying very hard to teach my girls not to do.

However, an occasional viewing of Cinderella (she is hard-working and the kindest person in the movie) or dressing up in pretty dresses does not bother me too much. As a PP said, the forbidden fruit and all. So we stick with what we see as the least harmful.

[JustMe]

I am the person who posted on the other thread about not allowing Barbies and disney princesses. I want to clarify that I do allow generic/non-character princess stuff. I do want dd to be able to play act different kinds of roles and understand why it would be fun for her to do so. I just do not like the stories as well as many other things mentioned about the disney princesses so we don't do them. Fwiw, dd knows that if she is at a friend's house and they have these things, that she can play with them there. She knows I don't like them, but knows I don't want her to worry too much about that while at friends' houses.

I do not allow Barbie b/c of the over-sexualization, ridiculous proportions, etc. As others have said, there are other alternatives. I also refuse to use my money to support the idea that people want to buy this for their children. That said, I am slightly less against Barbies for older kids, although I still probably wouldn't have them in my house...partlly because of not wanting to spend mony on that...but I really against having them for very young children. I just feel there are a lot of toys out there that are more appropriate for 2,3, and 4 year old, for example.

Someone mentioned forbidden fruit, and yes I do have this fear. I try to explain my choices to dd as she gets older and hope for the best. I am not sure what I will do as she gets older and at what point I will feel that she should make these descions for herself...that will be a tough one to call for me.

[egoldber]

I just feel there are a lot of toys out there that are more appropriate for 2,3, and 4 year old, for example.

Despite my childhood love of all things Barbie LOL, I completely agree with that. Maybe older 4 is a bit on the edge (in my mind). I know when I was playing with Barbie, I was definitely in early elementary school, so 6, 7, 8 and possibly even older.

I've actually only purchased one Barbie for Sarah, a generic princess, that I gave her for her 5th birthday. She also has a 12 Dancing Princesses one that she got as a birthday present. And sadly, the Barbie accessories today pale in comparison to the ones of yesteryear IMO.

[elephantmeg]

To me these rules are strange. My mom had one for toy baby bottles-I wasn't allowed to have a toy baby bottle because she didn't want me to think that there was any way to feed a baby besides breastfeeding. Well as a WOTHM I use bottles to feed my breastmilk TYVM! And to be completely honest I stole a baby bottle (where's that embarrassed smiley?) and hid it and used it with my dolls when my mom wasn't around. And I was surprised to find out that she weaned my brother at 2 months and me at 10... to bottles. But I digress.

For me barbies were the ultimate imaginative play, and I loved the accessories (the ice cream set rocked!), and I agree that it wasn't until I was in high school that I realized that the disney movies were rather pathetic in terms of the message. We didn't have many (just Cinderella) and didn't see many (lived overseas) so they really didn't form a huge impression on me.

As the mom of a little girl now, I think I'll encourage the dress up, limit the movies, raise her to think for herself and give the girl a bottle to play with (of EBM of course!)

[GeekLady]

ETA: I wanted, and still want Barbie boobs. LOL.

Ouch. I never particularly wanted anything bigger than my college 36B, and even those were too big at times.

Pregnancy has been an awful kick in the pants - boobwise. I really get the Amazons now.

[fivi2]

I am the person who posted on the other thread about not allowing Barbies and disney princesses. I want to clarify that I do allow generic/non-character princess stuff. I do want dd to be able to play act different kinds of roles and understand why it would be fun for her to do so. I just do not like the stories as well as many other things mentioned about the disney princesses so we don't do them. Fwiw, dd knows that if she is at a friend's house and they have these things, that she can play with them there. She knows I don't like them, but knows I don't want her to worry too much about that while at friends' houses.

I do not allow Barbie b/c of the over-sexualization, ridiculous proportions, etc. As others have said, there are other alternatives. I also refuse to use my money to support the idea that people want to buy this for their children. That said, I am slightly less against Barbies for older kids, although I still probably wouldn't have them in my house...partlly because of not wanting to spend mony on that...but I really against having them for very young children. I just feel there are a lot of toys out there that are more appropriate for 2,3, and 4 year old, for example.

Someone mentioned forbidden fruit, and yes I do have this fear. I try to explain my choices to dd as she gets older and hope for the best. I am not sure what I will do as she gets older and at what point I will feel that she should make these descions for herself...that will be a tough one to call for me.


ITA with all of this!

[stillplayswithbarbies]

And sadly, the Barbie accessories today pale in comparison to the ones of yesteryear IMO.

So true, so true.

:)

I loved my Barbies. Still do. My daughter has a few but is less interested in Barbies than in baby dolls and other toys. I think she sees the Barbies as "mommy's toys". In fact, when she sees a Barbie in our house, she will ask me "is that one mine or yours, mommy?". (I collect them, especially vintage or from my era of the 1970s)

For those of you who have banned Barbie, or have not, or fondly remember playing with Barbies, here are a few books you might want to read:


This one is by the daughter of the woman who invented Barbie. Very interesting about how her body image was affected by Barbie.

The Body Burden, Living In the Shadow of Barbie
by Stacey Handler
http://www.amazon.com/Body-Burden-Living-Shadow-Barbie/dp/1878398210/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208031917&sr=1-1

This one is a series of essays about Barbie.

The Barbie Chronicles: A Living Doll Turns Forty
by Yona Zeldis McDonough (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/Barbie-Chronicles-Living-Turns-Forty/dp/0684862751/ref=pd_sim_b_title_2

This one is a series of stories and poems about Barbie.

Mondo Barbie
by Lucinda Ebersole (Editor), Richard Peabody (Editor)
http://www.amazon.com/Mondo-Barbie-Lucinda-Ebersole/dp/0312088485/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208032195&sr=1-1

[lisams]

I've tried to stay neutral - never "pushed" nor banned princess or Barbie-type toys. I will say that I am so tired of seeing Disney princess stuff (really Disney in general) on practically everything (bikes, lunch boxes, sippy cups, pad of coloring paper, etc.) It just feels like we're turning our kids into free marketing for Disney, but that's a whole different issue. I followed DD's lead, which is the total opposite direction, she likes digging in the mud, playing soccer and finding bugs - no interest in pretty much any doll play or anything princess.

One thing that is frustrating is that so many people (family and friends) automatically assume that DD loves anything princess or Barbie because of her age and the fact that most girls her age are into those things. So she gets a lot of those kinds of things for her birthday and holidays and it makes me kind of sad for DD because it seems like people don't seem to consider her interests or they're trying to get her to like something that she just doesn't. I've even hinted many times about how she's just not a girly-girl. I just wish our society was a little more open to girls actually wanting to play with what are typically considered boy toys (and same w/boys wanting to play with "girl toys") Interesting my little guy plays with the dolls more than DD!

[lisams]

To me these rules are strange. My mom had one for toy baby bottles-I wasn't allowed to have a toy baby bottle because she didn't want me to think that there was any way to feed a baby besides breastfeeding. Well as a WOTHM I use bottles to feed my breastmilk TYVM! And to be completely honest I stole a baby bottle (where's that embarrassed smiley?) and hid it and used it with my dolls when my mom wasn't around. And I was surprised to find out that she weaned my brother at 2 months and me at 10... to bottles. But I digress.

I don't know why, but when I read this I pictured pretend mini breast pumps along the doll bottles at the toy store, for little mommies who want to give their babydolls EBM!!

[kijip]

We were not allowed to have any Barbies as a kid unless they were gifts. However, we had no interest in them whatsoever. Maybe it was parent propaganda, maybe it was interest in other things, maybe it was because I was the biggest tomboy ever born, but the barbies that did not get ignored, ended up buried in the backyard...when I was about 7 or 8 I thought when I grew up I was going to a priest (a male priest oddly enough, we were Catholic) and I would say the funeral mass over them and bury them. Despite how odd that is I did not end up a serial murderer or anything. :ROTFLMAO:

I don't know that I would make the same rule for my kids but I will say this:

-I don't think they are for kids under age 5.
-I would have a hard time with a Bratz doll, especially on in a very suggestive outfit (as opposed to the PJ party ones in robes or the b-ball players).
-This is, so far, just not the kind of toy that we buy in this house.
-If a kid really, really wants it at a certain age, provided it is not overtly dangerous or unacceptable (I dunno, say violent or racist), it has to be their choice. If my 3 year old wants X I see it entirely my role to say no if I don't like it. If my 8 year old wants it, I see it my job to trust that I have shared my values as to why I don't like it and let them go ahead and have one so they can see for themselves.

[lisams]

We were not allowed to have any Barbies as a kid unless they were gifts. However, we had no interest in them whatsoever. Maybe it was parent propaganda, maybe it was interest in other things, maybe it was because I was the biggest tomboy ever born, but the barbies that did not get ignored, ended up buried in the backyard...when I was about 7 or 8 I thought when I grew up I was going to a priest (a male priest oddly enough, we were Catholic) and I would say the funeral mass over them and bury them. Despite how odd that is I did not end up a serial murderer or anything. :ROTFLMAO:

Oh my goodness, that is funny!!

I had a few Barbies. My brothers would take their heads off and use them to throw in the pool. I guess their long hair made the water cascade nicely when thrown.

[KBecks]

Ouch. I never particularly wanted anything bigger than my college 36B, and even those were too big at times.

Pregnancy has been an awful kick in the pants - boobwise. I really get the Amazons now.

Oh, I know the reality isn't as good. I never got anything bigger than a small A cup (except a very temporary C when engorged, and that was a bizarre sight). I think Barbie may have set some expectations that women are supposed to have nice boobs but that's everywhere, not just Barbie.

I don't think a pear shaped Barbie would sell. Oh well!

I also had Growing Up skipper, where she went from flat to having a little more boobage, and she got taller, when you twisted her arm around. That was a hysterical toy.

[egoldber]

Oh I had Growing Skipper too! I always wondered if my mom knew what it did before she bought it or if she didn't realize? And I wonder if that was her version of having "the talk" with me since she never gave me any other information LOL!!!

[MartiesMom2B]

I loved my office barbie. I actually had her apartment that was an office on the other side.

DD plays with Barbies - her newest thing is Barbie Mariposa and she is now dressing like a butterfly to be like Mariposa. She also likes Princesses too. She seems to use both things as imaginative play. The videos don't really hold her interest though.

When I was in 4th grade I read Grimm's Fairytale and loved them. They are much more violent and gory than Disney makes it. It's not just Hans Christian Anderson. In Cinderella, the stepsisters take a knife and cut their feet to make them fit in the shoes.

[SnuggleBuggles]

When I was in 4th grade I read Grimm's Fairytale and loved them. They are much more violent and gory than Disney makes it. It's not just Hans Christian Anderson. In Cinderella, the stepsisters take a knife and cut their feet to make them fit in the shoes.

One of my college courses was all about folk and fairy tales. Some of the versions of "Sleeping Beauty" sure shocked Disney-fied me! I always make sure to pre-read any fairy tales before reading them to ds since I have afew books that contain some of the more graphic versions of them. Loved the class though.

Beth

[Sillygirl]

One of my college courses was all about folk and fairy tales. Some of the versions of "Sleeping Beauty" sure shocked Disney-fied me! I always make sure to pre-read any fairy tales before reading them to ds since I have afew books that contain some of the more graphic versions of them. Loved the class though.

Beth

See, I would rather read my kids the original Grimm's tales than let them watch the Disney Little Mermaid movie.

[ShanaMama]

My parents always emphasized that the things that make a person truly valuable (i.e., a 'real princess') are intangible: treating others with kindness and dignity, having self-confidence, etc.

Well said, this is basically what I try to instill in DD. She is a very 'girly girl' & asks for makeup when I put mine on, insists on wearing 'her' jewelery, etc. I have several relatives who put great emphasis on being cute and beautiful which I don't appreciate. I often discuss with DD that being kind and compassionate is far more valuable than being beautiful.
I was never allowed to play with Barbies and simply find them distasteful. I also try to avoid character products in general and only buy them for the sake of the toy, not the character. Tonight we were looking at a TRU circular (DD likes to look at the pics, no idea that the things are for sale!) and DD pointed to the Disney princesses. She said 'look Mommy, they match my pullups.' I am unimpressed by the messages in most Disney stories and to be honest I think many of them are frightening. I won't purposely expose DD to them any time soon.

[colleenfs]

I was never allowed to have Barbies as a child, and I was really sad about that. Now that we have Bratz and other hideous options, Barbies and Princesses don't look so bad to me! DD has some Barbies and Princesses. I would NOT allow a Bratz doll though.

That said, I am a school librarian, and I also hate the way that fairy tales have been "Disney-fied." We do allow the girls to watch Disney movies, but we also read, read, read. In fact, DD's favorite part of the library is 398.2 - yes she knows the call number for fairy tales! She loves to read different versions of the classic fairy tales and compare them, both the story and the illustrations. She has her favorites - we both love Trina Shart Hyman and Paul Zelinsky.

[californiagirl]

I strongly suspect that DD's first Barbie will come from her honorary great-grandmother, who wants to give her one out of sheer curiosity to see what she'll do with it. Said grandmother buried her baby-dolls as a child. (And did not turn out to be a serial killer.)

DD got some Polly Pockets for her birthday. So far we have learned a) that the hair dryer is a pink space gun and b) that Polly Pockets' clothes are fancy because they are sky dresses that help her fly. (Me: "Polly Pocket can fly?" DD: "Of course. How else would she rescue people?")

[mom2chloe]

I have been reading and reading all of these posts just trying to come up with the right... or ANY words at all. I've been completely at a loss. My first reaction is, "Who really thinks this much about a plastic doll?" Teach your child the right values - how to respect themselves and treat others - and don't worry about about a chunk of plastic.

I remember the Christmas I got the whole Barbie set up and the Death Star/Star Wars set up... I thought Santa ROCKED... and I don't recall giving a second thought to which one was better than the other. Of course, I also don't recall conversations about fat grams, eating everything on my plate, fat/skinny clothes, calories, etc... so maybe I just come from a different universe.

I do remember being a bit of a tomboy as a young child, but girly as I hit junior high (read miniskirt and flats in the snow at the bus stop). I've always been thin, and ate whatever I wanted, but I never recall and self-image issues surrounding my weight... I was a happy A cup when I moved to Los Angeles at 20 and when I moved back to MD at 25. It wasn't until I met my ex-husband that I ever even considered being unhappy with my body. (He was quite unhappy with his). I have to say I enjoyed every second of my DD's when I was nursing, and depleting to less than an A cup after nursing is what prompted my implants, nothing else. I told my surgeon, "Give me something that will look natural on my body" and that was the end of the conversation. He gave me the smallest of the 3 sizes we discussed, and I couldn't be happier as an average C. No one looks twice, and I feel like I have a woman's shape in my clothes. That being said, whose boobs are actually as big and perky as Barbie's??? Come on... Even DD at 5 knows better than that.

My biggest concern with her was that she'd believe beauty was more important than brains, as so many people tell little girls "You're so cute/pretty/beautiful" when they wear little pink dresses and bows (like DD insisted upon). We taught her young that it's more important to be nice than pretty and we never let that go.

DD will be 6 next week. She's having a Bratz party. (Believe it or not, it's hard to find Bratz party gear!) I'm sure you figured that DD's name is Chloe - She wonders what happened to the "h" in the Cloe Bratz doll's name. LOL. My Chloe has known princesses her whole life, and we even call her princess. She's smart as a whip, a leader in her Kindergarten class, and one of the most loving children you'll ever know. Ask her today if it's more important to be pretty or nice, and she'll tell you nice as if you'd be a fool to think otherwise. She can tell you 15 things right now that make you a good friend, that being smart is one of the best things you can be, that she can be anything she wants, and that she'll be a princess for as long as she can. (All of this will of course be told to you with the attitude if you didn't already know it was true.)

I'm saddened by the fact that this thread even needs to exist. To be honest, I only read it because I couldn't even believe it was worthy of conversation, so I was curios about what people had to say. I almost feel like not letting your daughter play with Barbie/Princesses is the same thought process as "If we don't provide sex education they won't have sex." I am choosing to rely on the consistent reinforcement of my values over vigilance against a toy, but that's just me.

[kijip]

I'm saddened by the fact that this thread even needs to exist. To be honest, I only read it because I couldn't even believe it was worthy of conversation, so I was curios about what people had to say.
So let me get this straight- are you shocked different people have a different idea of what bears a conversation or saddened that there are people that disagree with you?

At this time, while not entirely opposed to them, I am not for them either and they are simply not the images and the kinds of toys that I want in my house. I am not sure why it is shocking that different people have different values? Discussing differences can be enlightening and informative. I have friends with daughters that own dozens of Bratz and friends who prohibit Barbie et al altogether. All of these friends are excellent mothers who have different reasons for reaching their differing conclusions. Frankly, it all seems worthy of conversation to me.

I grew up in a no Barbie household until my parents agreed to let us keep the gifted ones. As described earlier in the thread I did not play with them the way Mattel had in mind :ROTFLMAO:I know a lot of girls my age who had similar or more restrictive rules and we all turned out just fine. My parents were pacifist, deeply Catholic, hippies. Takes all kinds.

[lisams]

I grew up in a no Barbie household until my parents agreed to let us keep the gifted ones.

When I first read this, I thought you meant your parents agreed to let you keep the gifted "bright" Barbies and I was wondering how they decided which ones were smarter than the others.

I've found this thread to be very interesting. I really enjoy reading different people's perspectives.

[mom2chloe]

So let me get this straight- are you shocked different people have a different idea of what bears a conversation or saddened that there are people that disagree with you?

Wow, you really read me wrong... and an accusatory and belittling tone to boot.:hysterical:

I am shocked and saddened that this topic bears the need for a conversation. PERIOD. Where are the conversations about the body images of little boys and men? I frequently hear conversations or complaints about how "the media", television, videos, toys, music, whatever else sounds good... has contributed to the low self esteem, poor body images, eating disorders, obsessive dieting, etc... of little girls and women. I'm saddened that one half of the population never gives this a second thought, and it's an obsessive topic of debate and things we need to shield our children from in the other half.

That being said, I've quite enjoyed reading the different perspectives on how different families combat all that is happening in our society to erode the self confidence and self esteem of half the population.

[wellyes]

Gifted Babies - hee!


I am shocked and saddened that this topic bears the need for a conversation. PERIOD. Where are the conversations about the body images of little boys and men?

Yeah, I get this. it's kinda the reason WHY I'd prefer to shield my daughter from beauty-obsession play. It's why I think so much about "a plastic doll" - because it can impact girl's self image for a lifetime. Boys don't have to deal with that nonsense and I wish little girls didn't either. Well, that's not entirely true, boys aren't "allowed" to play with dolls, only action figures, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Anyway, I know that plenty of little kids, boys and girls, want nothing more than to dress up themselves or thier dolls like princesses. As with anything, with guidance it's lots of harmless fun. I'd just prefer to put it off as long as I possibly can, personally.

[kmak]

I agree with most people here that Barbie is so cartoonish that it doesn't create the negative self body image that most of us have had to battle. Media, magazines, movies, other people, our own inner critic, etc. I think are more to blame. I equate Barbie with road runner/coyote. I watched the road runner cartoons as a kid, but I never had the urge to drop an anvil on someone. Well, ok, there is this one guy I work with, but that's a different story.
I had Barbies, even inherited some of those old 50's style from my aunt, and it was all about the storied you could make up with them. They were more like action figures, rode my model horses, etc. The Bratz dolls are something I'm wary of, and Hanna Montanna. My hairdresser is a breast cancer survivor and more than half of her business is wigs for chemotherapy patients. She has a huge shop that is 75% wig displays. Anyway, I was there once and a mother and daughter came in for a Hanna Montanna like wig. The mother paid upwards of $200 for this wig for her daughter to wear to the concert. I couldn't believe it. My hairdresser didn't even know who Hanna Montanna was until they called and couldn't believe they were doing that just for a concert.

[kijip]

When I first read this, I thought you meant your parents agreed to let you keep the gifted "bright" Barbies and I was wondering how they decided which ones were smarter than the others.


:ROTFLMAO: Yeah, my parents gave them an IQ test, LOL.

[kijip]

Wow, you really read me wrong... and an accusatory and belittling tone to boot.:hysterical:

I am shocked and saddened that this topic bears the need for a conversation. PERIOD. Where are the conversations about the body images of little boys and men? I frequently hear conversations or complaints about how "the media", television, videos, toys, music, whatever else sounds good... has contributed to the low self esteem, poor body images, eating disorders, obsessive dieting, etc... of little girls and women. I'm saddened that one half of the population never gives this a second thought, and it's an obsessive topic of debate and things we need to shield our children from in the other half.

That being said, I've quite enjoyed reading the different perspectives on how different families combat all that is happening in our society to erode the self confidence and self esteem of half the population.

In the first post, you made it sound as though this should not even be discussed, you also derided people for "obsessing" over a doll (kinda belittling, no?). Your second post here makes your intent clearer to me and a really appriciate the clarification.

It is not a matter of debate that girls have huge self doubt over body image. I frankly do think that things like Barbie and Bratz and the similar images ot teeny tiny girls contributes to that. That or they are a symptom of a larger problem, either way I am not wild about them. No doubt IMO that Bratz presents sexualized images of not only teen girls, but toddlers (with their "Baby Bratz" that look like tot street walkers). I was surprized that such a doll (a toddler in make-up, big hair and a miniskirt) would have buyers, but everyone has different values and different levels of comfort with such things. I would hope to raise my children like my parents did, with little to no appetite for such toys. Since I only have a son, this is academic for me as while he is wild about pink and flowers has not asked for Barbies or Princesses.

I see the Princess thing a a little different from the Barbie and Bratz dolls. Just about every little kid likes to daydream of being magical or super special and the princess stuff fits into that. It is a long held archtype in our culture and can be used for good as I am concerned. Disney is not the only way for kids to incorporate those fantasies into their play but is popular for a reason.

[lisams]

Where are the conversations about the body images of little boys and men?

One place would be in the circumcision threads. Usually talk of appearance and fitting in and looking like dad comes up.

Getting back to the topic, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on toy guns/weapons and superheros for little boys.

[niccig]

Getting back to the topic, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on toy guns/weapons and superheros for little boys.

This is my issue with DS, who is 3. I limit characters and refuse to buy any clothes with characters or an obvious brand logo - my child isn't a billboard. He does wear character clothes given by family, but if I'm dressing him, those aren't my first choice. DS isn't into superheroes or guns/weapons. But I found myself in an uncomfortable spot at Toys R Us. DS wanted to buy my father a toy for his birthday to go with the book I was getting him. So, we look at the store and as my Dad is into cars/trucks, I thought we could get him something like that, but they were all too big for the suitcase or too expensive. My father was in the army and is a military history fan, so, I bought a die cast model of a WWII tank. DS then asks what it is, and I answer, and he wants to know what does it do - ummm, well it's used in battle in war and ummmmm....I didn't want to explain further. He then asks if he can play with it with Grandad, oh gees, I really didn't think this through. I told him it was Grandad's toy and we would have to ask, but that's only putting off the decision until we arrive there next week.

[kijip]

Getting back to the topic, I'd love to hear other's thoughts on toy guns/weapons and superheros for little boys.

Tangent:

\ Let’s not suppose that we don’t give boys hangs ups about their self image. For men, physical strength, choice of leisure activities and the gender appropriateness of activities are of great importance and influence on their self image as men and heck, even being seen as, recognized as “MEN”. Men who are skinny, boys who are chubby and un-athletic in school, boys who don’t like sports are all examples of groups of makes that get pressured, teased or ridiculed. Men do have the possibility of overcoming their physical traits with material success in a way traditionally women do not (ie a skinny, unattractive male CEO is still a desirable marriage partner in our society, whereas a similar woman is not so much). But those that fly in the face of what men are expected to like or be or who lack physical strength or stature, do pay a social price.

I have a son who loves the color pink, has a dollhouse, loves his toy kitchen, gardens, had us paint flowers on his wall and goes to t-ball practice with a pink batting helmet emblazoned with red hearts and pink tulips (a design of his own making). The remarks, looks and general reaction to it show a lot of social pressure. And we live in a very liberal area, where the average man is much more like my “metrosexual” husband than the stereotypical “man’s man”. T genuinely dislikes super heros and playing pirates and had to stand his ground, at all of 4 years old, to defend himself from being teased for not liking it. He received a Spiderman lunchbox from a relative for Easter and was genuinely unhappy with it (which is not because of parental influence, because we (esp. my husband) are comics fans and love Spiderman) because the picture is “not very pretty” “kinda mean looking”. We have not had to make rules about guns or violent toys because T does not like them, even though his friends have exposed him to them a lot.


Frankly, I am surprised at even my own reaction to his pinktastic world. I honestly (very privately and personally, away from my son) fret a *little* over it because I don’t want him to have a rough time in school and I want for him the same things I had- athletic ability, ease of making friends. In reality, he is turning into the kid in left field too busy looking at bugs to care about the ball flying at him. Or is he? Why would I think that based a few weeks of t-ball? Am I making that the image that I see of him, heck what he sees of himself, because it does not fit with my own bias of what I assume? I don’t believe, like so many seem to either jokingly or in seriousness, that this all means he is gay. Fear of boys liking these things usually boils down to fear of homosexuality. Given who my husband is and how he is, I don’t assume this determines if my son is gay or not. My straight husband reads Martha Stewart Living for heaven’s sake.

Happily, T seems to have a very strong sense of confidence in his wants and his likes and has not had anxiety or changed his preference based on his feedback. He loves playing t-ball, loves doing yoga, loves tending to his flowers, loves learning about how things work (from the human body to the solar system), loves playing in the dirt, loves building things and just seems pretty content to do his own thing. He is surprisingly popular at school which I think is a function of friendliness, but I admit I am waiting for the year it is more clearly spelled out to him what a “boy” is. Perhaps that won’t come, perhaps we have changed enough to avoid it altogether. That is a happy thought. If we lived in an even less accepting environment, one where more parents told their boys and in harsher terms to not like certain things or behave in certain ways, I think it would be very damaging to him. I think he would be worried, more reserved and unhappy. That is why I take the assumptions about how boys “should be” so seriously. But in looking at that overall culture, I have to primarily look at myself and my own bias and belief system.