I need to talk about measles/MMR, urgently

[KBecks]

OK, the area where I live is having a measles outbreak. It is very close to home for us, only a few miles from where we live, and certainly in our stomping grounds.

I'm 11 wks pregnant, I'm going to get a blood test Tuesday to check my immunity. I probably had MMR shots in high school or college but I don't know and don't have records. I want to know what my status is.

John, 21 mos, has not had an MMR vax. I am debating whether to take him to a clinic tomorrow to receive it, or wait to get my results, or I don't know.

I've done general reading on measles and understand it's possibly very likely that John would be exposed to it, it's going to be circulating in our area for a while, and so I'm leaning towards having him vaxed, however...... I want to read some pros/cons and MDC is down and I can't access anything! I may be inclined to search out a measles only vax, but I don't know how much of a project that would be. I'm feeling a sense of urgency from the nurses I have spoken to about acting quickly.

I learned more today about the boys' cousins and their youngest cousin, 15 mos, is diagnosed with a mild form of autism but they don't know exactly what's going on yet. I don't think that affects the decision that much but it is a little concerning. Would John's doc know by now if he were showing signs of autism? I would think so but that's just a guess.

I was going to try to delay and do more reserach on vax and wait until John was >2 years, but now I need to take a good look at this and reassess our risks.

OK, if you have links would you please help me out? Reply or PM is great, thanks so much!

[bubbaray]

You very likely had your Rubella titre checked in your first PGy. If it had been too low, I would hope your OB would have followed up post-partum. And, its Rubella thats a risk for the fetus, not measles. I would guess that you're OK on that front.

Personally, I'm pro-vax. In hindsight, I might have pursued the Sears alternative schedule in their recent Vax book, but I still would have pursued all vax's, with the exception of the roto one (which was pulled again in Canada).

I liked this article:
http://www.askdrsears.com/news/headlines1107.asp#t1

I would poke around on the Dr. Sears site.
http://www.askdrsears.com/faq/vcn1.asp
http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/current_outbreaks_and_epidemics.asp
http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

Good luck!

[KBecks]

Thanks Melissa, my Rubella is OK, just had an appointment Wed. and got those results. I think Measles is a separate risk and I spoke with an OB nurse about it who suggested I get a blood test for rubeola (measles) when I'm in next week. I hope that if my Rubella is OK my measles is probably OK too, but I'm going to want it checked for peace of mind. I should check to see if regular measles is a pregnancy risk too. The OB's office seemed to think it was.

Thanks for the links I'll check those out!

[o_mom]

Can you find your records? The only way I know my vaccine record is because I got my records from the college health clinic and it had the form I filled out with all the vaccines. If you call, they may have it if your childhood pediatrician doesn't. Regardless of your titre (blood test), if you had two doses and still don't show immune, a third is not recommended, and not while pregnant at all. If they want you to get vaccine PP, really research it. The side effects for adult women receiving the MMR include some tabled events in the vaccine injury program, so they are not suspected to be related, but definately related. You can also pass rubella on to the newborn.

I can't say what I would do for your DS2. It is certainly more serious than CP. I don't envy your position :hug: . Have you read the CDC pink book chapters?

[o_mom]

with the exception of the roto one (which was pulled again in Canada).



Do you have info on this? I hadn't seen that and I can't find anything on it. Thanks!

[brittone2]

Can you find your records? The only way I know my vaccine record is because I got my records from the college health clinic and it had the form I filled out with all the vaccines. If you call, they may have it if your childhood pediatrician doesn't. Regardless of your titre (blood test), if you had two doses and still don't show immune, a third is not recommended, and not while pregnant at all. If they want you to get vaccine PP, really research it. The side effects for adult women receiving the MMR include some tabled events in the vaccine injury program, so they are not suspected to be related, but definately related. You can also pass rubella on to the newborn.

I can't say what I would do for your DS2. It is certainly more serious than CP. I don't envy your position :hug: . Have you read the CDC pink book chapters?


Agreeing with this. Some people unfortunately never respond with immunity to the MMR no matter how many vaxes they get. They just don't respond. That is one of the reasons some people in the anti-vax camp are pro natural immunity. There will always be a potential for breakthrough cases or transmission even in the full vaxed. That creates quite a dilemma. If we all got Rubella in childhood when it is generally a mild illness, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I would just read up on Measles and pregnancy, and get your titres checked.

ETA: I've always read that if someone does come down w/ measles, vitamin A is very important (and countries were people are vitamin A deficient tend to have the most measles complications). Cod liver oil can be a good source of A. It might be something to read up on just in case your kids contract it.

[KBecks]

Agreeing with this. Some people unfortunately never respond with immunity to the MMR no matter how many vaxes they get. They just don't respond. That is one of the reasons some people in the anti-vax camp are pro natural immunity. There will always be a potential for breakthrough cases or transmission even in the full vaxed. That creates quite a dilemma. If we all got Rubella in childhood when it is generally a mild illness, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I would just read up on Measles and pregnancy, and get your titres checked.

ETA: I've always read that if someone does come down w/ measles, vitamin A is very important (and countries were people are vitamin A deficient tend to have the most measles complications). Cod liver oil can be a good source of A. It might be something to read up on just in case your kids contract it.

Checking with my college sounds like a great idea. I'm ancient, I hope they have records that old!

I have read a little about Vitamin A and Vitamin C but I would want to be very cautious with dosing and I'd probably want to talk to the pediatrician about it before I felt comfortable. It probably would be good for me also if my blood check comes back w/o immunity.

It's a tough thing because while I understand that John is a healthy robust kid and would do OK if he got the measles, it would still be absolutely no fun dealing with it if he had it. And realistically it's likely to be around in our community for quite some time. I'm not sure how long an "average" outbreak lasts.

[bubbaray]

Do you have info on this? I hadn't seen that and I can't find anything on it. Thanks!

OK, I kinda mis-spoke. It wasn't pulled from the *market* per se. It was supposed to be put on our provincial immunization schedule, but our gov't changed its mind -- coincindentally with the problems in the US.

Here is a report from the federal gov't (they determine vax approval for use, but NOT what is included in each province's immunization schedule).

http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/08vol34/acs-1/index-eng.php?option=email

I don't know anyone here who has used it. My GP won't give it and the public health units don't have it (b/c it isn't publically funded). I looked into it for DD#2 as DD#1 had it twice. My GP flat out told me "no".

HTH

[bubbaray]

Here are some links:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TBM-43C5P59-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a3840934dd09d444a747717ee669f716

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/measles/dis-detail-rec.htm

From CDC: Pregnant women should not receive the MMR vaccine. Women should not become pregnant for 28 days following the receipt of the MMR vaccine or any of its components.

http://www.immunize.org/pregnancy/index.htm

I'm certain that checking titres for measles (rubeola), rubella, chickenpox, mumps, etc. are standard 1st tri bloodwork tests here, so I assume they would be in the US too.

It doesn't sound like at this point there is much you can do, vax-wise, for yourself as the vax is contraindicated during PGy.

HTH

[Rainbows&Roses]

I just saw something about this on the news. They said it was confined to 3 or 4 kids in a daycare center and a 37 year old adult. Or maybe our news here didn't get the whole story? They talked about the City of Milwaukee getting people to re-vax so I guess they consider that an outbreak since it doesn't occur much.

If that is all it is, I probably wouldn't worry about and/or hang around the house for awhile to see it if developed into anything more (if that is an option.)

[o_mom]

Checking with my college sounds like a great idea. I'm ancient, I hope they have records that old!



I just figured it was more recent than your childhood ped! :) Or, if you had records transferred from there to your family practice doctor, they may have a copy of it. I know that my ped was older than the hills when *I* was a patient. I'm sure he's long gone and finding my records from there would be a nightmare.

[o_mom]

OK, I kinda mis-spoke. It wasn't pulled from the *market* per se. It was supposed to be put on our provincial immunization schedule, but our gov't changed its mind -- coincindentally with the problems in the US....

Thanks!! :)

[billysmommy]

If you chose do the measles only vax, it shouldn't be a problem to find it. Our ped called one in for Benjamin and our pharmacy called the next day for us to come pick it up.

[KBecks]

I just saw something about this on the news. They said it was confined to 3 or 4 kids in a daycare center and a 37 year old adult. Or maybe our news here didn't get the whole story? They talked about the City of Milwaukee getting people to re-vax so I guess they consider that an outbreak since it doesn't occur much.

If that is all it is, I probably wouldn't worry about and/or hang around the house for awhile to see it if developed into anything more (if that is an option.)


The thing that is so tricky with measles, is how contagious it is. Maybe it's not that big of a deal, and I know the kids from the daycares (one daycare and one gym daycare) I think were told to be kept at home to see if they're OK and to avoid spreading the measles..... hopefully, that will work, but I guess I'm concerned if there has been greater exposure already.

Our health person says "There has been massive exposure," said Paul Biedrzycki, the director of disease control and environmental health for the Milwaukee Health Department. I wonder if that means they believe there has been a lot of potential contact outside of the daycares.

"It takes an average of 10 to 12 days from exposure to the first symptom, which is usually fever. The measles rash doesn't usually appear until about 14 days after exposure, and two to three days after the fever begins." So we won't know for a while whether there are more cases or if this is it.

I went tonight to the bookstore to get Dr. Sears vaccine book and they didn't have it.

[bubbaray]

I went tonight to the bookstore to get Dr. Sears vaccine book and they didn't have it.

Try your local library (that's where I found it) or Amazon (overnight shipping??). I was quite impressed and learned a lot from it.

[JTsMom]

MDC goes down at the darndest times, huh? Never fails. Well, I certainly can't hold a candle to some of those girls, but I'll throw in my .02 fwiw.

OK, the area where I live is having a measles outbreak. It is very close to home for us, only a few miles from where we live, and certainly in our stomping grounds.

I'm 11 wks pregnant, I'm going to get a blood test Tuesday to check my immunity. I probably had MMR shots in high school or college but I don't know and don't have records. I want to know what my status is.


Is this the biggest concern? If so, I'd try to focus on that issue in doing research. I'm sure there are some risks, but you most likely were vaxxed and boostered for college, so either you have immunity, or you don't. I can see the rationale of wanting to vax your son to protect the baby, BUT you could also be exposed through any random person, just like your son, kwim? I would bet you're protected though.


John, 21 mos, has not had an MMR vax. I am debating whether to take him to a clinic tomorrow to receive it, or wait to get my results, or I don't know.

You've been dealing with this risk all along, so what are the odds that a couple of days taken to research are going to be a big deal? From what I know about you from your posts, I think that if you do this hastily, without getting to research to your satisfaction, you might end up kicking yourself. I know it's hard not to run out and do it when you get into panic mode, I'm just giving you something else to consider.


I may be inclined to search out a measles only vax, but I don't know how much of a project that would be. I'm feeling a sense of urgency from the nurses I have spoken to about acting quickly.

I think the nurses will always give you that sense. DS scratched my eye the other day, and I had to go to Urgent Care. The Dr. lectured me on the importance of getting a tet booster b/c it was indicated for my type of injury. Meanwhile she didn't think I needed antibiotics b/c she couldn't find any scratches on the surface of my eye. LOL

Measles only vax- might be a project, might be easy. Some peds will order it for you, but the way I understand it is that it has to be ordered in a certain quantity, so if they won't be able to use it all, they don't want to do that. If you have a crunchy ped in the area, she/he might have it already. Some will write you a Rx, and you can order it (I can't remember who you do that through, but I know there have been threads on it here), but it can be a little pricey.



Couple of random things to check out:
http://www.amazon.com/Raise-Healthy-Child-Spite-Doctor/dp/0345342763

(Rec'd on MDC all the time, but I haven't read it yet)

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccinations-Thoughtful-Sensible-Decisions-Alternatives/dp/0892819316/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1

ditto this one

DEFINITELY check out the pink book- that is the source I have found most helpful.

And this one isn't really scientific, but can you ask maybe your mom or grandma what they know about measles and pregnancy? You might be surprised.



Good luck with your decision.

[Gena]

Would John's doc know by now if he were showing signs of autism? I would think so but that's just a guess.

How is John's development now? Do you have reasons to suspect autism or does he seem to be on track with language/communication, social skills, and play skills?

Some kids show signs of autism from very early on. Other children development normally and then experience a regression (loss of skills). Regression can occur anytime bewteen 15-24 months. A 2004 study from the Univ of Michigan found that regression occurrs in 20%-40% of cases of autism and the mean age of regression was 19 months. But they were not able to connect the regression to the timing of vacinations. Some of the kids studied actually showed regression before receiving vax.

http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/Why_Do_Some_Develop_Then_Regress.asp?cat=6

So yes, John's docs should know if he is showing signs of autism now. But even if he is not, that is not a guarentee that he won't develop them later. By definition, autism are evident by age 3.

I don't know if that helps you or not.

[KBecks]

Thanks, Lori and Gena. Your posts are both very helpful. DH and I discussed it this morning and we decided to try this vax clinic today. Well, it was a zoo and so Dave and John decided to leave, which gives me more time to now read and think and get my test, etc. Maybe it's meant to be that way. I am more interested in measles only than MMR combo, so I hope I can get that through the pediatrician. That would be ideal. At the same time, I may want to watch if any more cases crop up in the next several days. I'm curious if this will spread more or if it is already contained, but who knows.

I do want to read vax books anyway as this will be ongoing for John and the new baby.

My two main concerns are 1) the status of my immunity, which either is or isn't and I can't do much about, but I would probably go out less and do fish oil, just be more cautious if I knew I was susceptible, and 2) protecting John from measles, while he would be OK if he got measles, facing the reality that he could get it and be miserably sick for a few days, I'm leaning more toward getting the vax. But, I'm still concerned over aluminum, etc. But only having one live virus shot sounds so much better to me than the combo vax. And it makes sense to me since I believe this is a real possibility for him to get measles now. It is different for me knowing that there's a measles outbreak in our immediate area, vs. an outbreak could occur in our area.

John is healthy and there have been no concerns over his development. I do appreciate knowing more about when autism is identified and defined.

[KrisM]

Hopewell Pharmacy had the measles vac in stock at couple weeks ago. I don't know either way now. http://www.hopewellrx.com/. You do need a prescription, but they deliver overnight. It's about $50, including delivery for a single dose.

[JTsMom]

That all makes sense. I agree about doing 1 as opposed to a combo, assuming you aren't worried about the other 2. At least that way his immune system is dealing with 1 virus, not 3.

I'm pretty sure there is no aluminum in the MMR. There is, of course, some other nasty stuff. I'm not at all familiar with just Measles, but now that you have some more time, I'm sure MDC will be way more helpful.

I don't know how much research you've done so far, but b/c you're kind of under some pressure, I would keep it really simple at first, then go into the more in-depth stuff, b/c honestly, you'll never be done researching. So, imho, here are some things that are good to start with:

1. Find out what a mild, typical and severe case of measles is like in a healthy child in America. Find out why severe cases are severe, and how likely that is to happen to YOUR child, not a child living in filth, with no clean water. Look at the pros and cons of catching wild measles as opposed to getting the vax.

2. Figure out what the real chance of John catching it is. Look at historical #'s, look at the outbreak and what those who are dealing with it are experiencing. REALLY look though, don't just listen to some crackpot on your local scare news channel. (I'm guessing there is one in every city!) That's where the CDC site comes in handy. Don't rely on the "parent pages" though.

3. Figure out how you would treat measles if he did catch it.

4. Then look at the vaccine. Look at the ingredients list (you can find them online). Look at the possible side effects. Then look at VAERS, keeeping in mind that a. anyone can make a report, so there is a chance some of the reports could be bogus and b) even they admit that the reported incidents are only 10% of the incidents that actually occur. Also look at how vax reactions would be handled.

5. Take all of your data, and really look at the pros and the cons of each thing. To me, it's just a matter of numbers. I try to leave emotion out of it as much as I can. I know that is easier said than done in your case though!

6. Ask yourself what you think in your gut. How would you feel if he caught measles? How would you feel if he had a vax reaction?

Then decide which is the lesser of two evils. Honestly, I'm not 100% confortable not vaxxing, but I'm more comfortable not doing it than I would be doing it. I can see how people come down on either side of the issue. You are taking a risk either way, you just have to figure out which is the least dangerous for your particular situation. I wish I could just vax and feel like that took care of everything, and I wouldn't have to worry, but that's just not how it works-and I know you know that, I'm just rambling.

We fully vaxxed (and thought all non-vaxxers needed to take off their tin-foil hats) until about 9 months. Then I started having this horrible dread about Jason getting the MMR and started researching just a little bit. I still have that fear, and my mommy instinct tends to be spot on.

Anyway, that's way more than you probably wanted to hear, but I was so confused when I first started researching, I had no idea where to start. Hopefully there is some useful tidbit in this novel.

[JTsMom]

Wow, just $50- that's great for those who want to go that route! The last I had heard, you had to order something like 12 doeses.

[KrisM]

Wow, just $50- that's great for those who want to go that route! The last I had heard, you had to order something like 12 doeses.

Yes, not bad. I did them this way for DS 2 years ago and have 2 of 3 for DD right now. They don't have the mumps vax in stock right now. And, I've been asking since about August and they just recently got measles and rubella in stock - maybe in early March? So, the single ones aren't super easy to come by currently as the manufacturer isn't releasing them. (someone mentioned getting them was easy, but that is not my experience lately.)