Is anyone else following the FLDS story in the news?

[elaineandmichaelsmommy]

I'm just curious because I find myself reading every story as it comes out. And I was wondering if anyone else is doing the same. No matter what happened or didn't happen at the ranch my heart just breaks for those children.

What do you guys think?

[MamaMolly]

Yes, I'm following it, and I'm torn about it. I feel so much sympathy for those moms and kids. But on NPR there was an 'unconfirmed report' of a 16 year old who had already had 4 children. (!!!) So if that is true then I DO believe that sexual abuse has happened.
Either way, it is a wrenching story.

****Wow! Thank you, everyone, for your informed, well thought out responses and for the links. Now that I know so much more about it, I have to say that my heart still goes out to ANY mother and child who are forced apart. Especially a mother who is clearly grossly uneducated. I also agree with the poster who feels like this whole thing probably won't end well for any of the families. Sick and sad, the whole way around.

[ha98ed14]

I have been following it very closely. I watched all the clips on MSNBC (we don't have TV) from NBC nightly news and the Today show where they interviewed the moms. I also read about the 16 y.o. girl with 4 kids.

We cannot be sure how much abuse is going on with the younger children and boys, but it is so obvious that they force their adolescent girls into marriage, or if they don't force them, then the girls are conditioned from a very early age to "want" to get married. The fact that they tie getting married and having babies to "eternal salvation" is what I really do not understand. How can they teach their daughters that they will go to h*ll if they don't consent to being a baby factory. They use religion to control people, but what do they get out of it? I just don't get it.

[bubbaray]

I've been following it. My maternal grandfather's family was Mormon and actually left the LDS after The Trek with Brigham Young because they disagreed with polygamy.

[elektra]

Yes. And after reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" a few years ago, it makes me lean more toward the feeling that the FLDS people are crazy and the the men are just perverts, vs. feeling that hey, having many wives is no big deal. I think people have the right to practice their religion, but not if it involves forcing young girls to have sex.
There are no easy answers though, because there are now 400+ kids living without their families. So sad.

I really recommend that book to anyone who wants to learn more about the FLDS, BTW.

[Tondi G]

I've been watching it too. I am just sad for the children. The moms too cause regardless they miss their babies and have been brain washed into thinking this way of life is the right and only way to live. It is going to be so hard on the children if they are put into main stream homes... adoption or foster homes. I think the small children/toddlers will be ok but the slightly older children are going to have a rough transition.

~Tondi

[Globetrotter]

It's heartbreaking to see the mothers without their children. As a mother myself, I can only imagine how horrible that is.

Beyond that, however, we have to remember that these folks are in a cult and have been programmed to tolerate some very questionable practices. As long as they live in that ranch in that setup, it will continue for a long time and they will accept it as their destiny. This has nothing to do with religion! It's all about power and control. Also, I recall hearing something about using the boys as cheap/slave labor to build million dollar projects??

We also have to remember that the FLDS followers left LDS because LDS denounced some of their practices. I didn't know all this until recently!

Kris

[KBecks]

I've only seen a little and I'm torn. I think kids should be removed from abusive homes, but I think that removing all the kids is a little strange, rather than just handling the families that are involved.

I've not watched much though. It is sad to see families separated and I am very leery of government royally screwing things up.

[belovedgandp]

I actually just finished reading "Escape" by Carol Jessop. She's been quoted a lot in all the media coverage. She was one of the first women to leave the FLDS and get custody of all 8 of her children. I think she left a few years ago from Colorado City right before they were beginning to move to the Texas compound.

The mind control and manipulation are awful. It's a scary situation where there are some strong held religious beliefs that have been co mingled with just plain bizarre behavior.

[kijip]

I actually just finished reading "Escape" by Carol Jessop. She's been quoted a lot in all the media coverage. She was one of the first women to leave the FLDS and get custody of all 8 of her children.

I read Escape and have been following the coverage of Warren Jeffs' trial, conviction and upcoming trial. Additionally, I have read a lot about others besides Carolyn Jessop (who at 18 was forced againist her will to marry a 49 year old man) who have left, including engaged 14 year old girls. Also, the wholesale "ex-comunication" of young boys by the men that lead the church. If they want dozen+ wives, then they have to get rid of their competition. Let's face it, teenage boys and teenage girls are going to pair up with each other if each is given a real choice.:) These boys have been as young as 12-14, usually the sons of the less influential members, and end up homeless in many cases. Their familes are told that they will go to hell if they speak to their sons again. These boys lack basic education skills (though often have excellent construction skills).

It is clear to anyone following it for awhile that the FLDS sect itself has been splitting, with those following Rulon and later Warren Jeffs becoming more and more extreme, abusive and cultish. Warren Jeffs even claimed at one point that he could teleport himself. Access to news and information was cut off to the point that he was "predicting" the weather as proof of his prophet status, though he was using the internet himself. These families also are a huge drain on welfare, SS and medical care rolls and frankly many are committing fraud to collect benefits without reporting their own signifigant business assets or income, having their wives file as single mothers. Malnutrition is high in families in FLDS (at one point in Carolyn's book she describes her husband doling out just a couple of hundred dollars a week to feed dozens of children (translating to pennies per day per child, all while generally eating nice meals himself with his favorite wife), as is a troubling genetic disorder which is the legacy of cousin, sibiling and even father-daughter marriages which were done with the intent of keeping the bloodlines pure (though a truer reason might be that oddly enough, people are not lining up to join FLDS). We have laws against incest and "inbreeding" for a reason.

I think that this sort of extreme polygamy, with many documented cases of sexual misconduct with young girls, on top of routine denial of education and information, is in and of itself child abuse. Abuse, sexism, incest and repression can't hide under the cloak of religion. I think the government has ignored this far too long in Arizona and Utah (though Utah has been proactive about it in recent years, partly prompting their shift towards a closed compound in Texas) and I applaud the government of Texas for dealing with it head on. It's about freaking time for those children. Utah apparently has documented and collected evidence for many cases they have been unable to try in court due to the inability on the part of witnesses to testify. They are too scared to talk and of what the leadership will do to their relatives still in FDLS.

I have been following this case in the print media, books and radio. Have not seen any of the TV reports. I fear that without the context of the background of FLDS (background and depth not being a strength of TV news typically) these parents look much more sympathic than they actually are. I encourage anyone who is torn after seeing the images of the kids being taken to read some older articles and legal documents on this. They are readily available online.

[JTsMom]

:yeahthat:

That was such a well thought out post, there is no way I can top it.

Did anyone else see any of the interviews done with the mothers? Their monotone, childlike voices are really scary, especially coupled with the fact that they couldn't even seem to understand the questions fully. I can't imagine how hard it must be to break out of an enviornment like that, and I doubt that there is going to be anything close to a happy ending for any of these people, except maybe the youngest children.

[bubbaray]

I think that this sort of extreme polygamy, with many documented cases of sexual misconduct with young girls, on top of routine denial of education and information, is in and of itself child abuse. Abuse, sexism, incest and repression can't hide under the cloak of religion. I think the government has ignored this far too long in Arizona and Utah (though Utah has been proactive about it in recent years, partly prompting their shift towards a closed compound in Texas) and I applaud the government of Texas for dealing with it head on. It's about freaking time for those children. Utah apparently has documented and collected evidence for many cases they have been unable to try in court due to the inability on the part of witnesses to testify. They are too scared to talk and of what the leadership will do to their relatives still in FDLS.




:yeahthat:

BTW, its not just in the US. FLDS have a "commune" in Bountiful, in the Creston Valley area of BC. Ironically, it was my GF's family that were the first white settlers of the Creston Valley and they came north from SLC when *they* split with Brigham Young over the polygamy issue.

Polygamy is illegal under the Criminal Code of Canada -- but the BC government has lacked the will for a looooong time now (over the course of many different gov'ts) to do anything about it. Winston Blackmore was on Larry King earlier this week saying that polygamy was his "religion". He, and our Crown prosecutors (like DAs in the US) seem to think that the Charter of Rights protect his right *religious* right to have multiple and young wives. There is also the issue of fraud here too and that might end up being the criminal undoing of the Bountiful folks, b/c the wives are receiving welfare benefits as "single moms".

Interestingly, Blackmore and Jeffs have "split up": http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/bustupinbountiful/

I thought this was an interesting article:
http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070625_106285_106285

[kransden]

On a slightly different tangent, has anyone wondered about the previously cast off teenage boys? If there are so many why haven't they been interviewed? I sort of feel like the press has missed the boat on the full story.

[kijip]

Another thought I have on this is that I honestly don't think government could possibly mess up more than the fathers and mothers (both of whose ability to consent may be questionable) have already messed up/messed with/abused their kids. Belonging to a religion that can not only "reassign" your wife and kids at will or that can make you illegally abandon your sons (which is a crime) is not healthy for the kids and the reports and documentation of physical, emotional and sexual abuse are too vast as to be ignored. It's not individual families---all girls after puberty are supposed to be married off at the will not even of the parents, but the leadership. One mother and father that resused to let their daughter be married off had the leadership try to seize their house and kick them out. And let's not forget that the leadership is still loyal to a man that is currently imprisioned by the federal government on one rape conspiracy charge and waiting for trial of another. The victim was 14 or 15 years old and was "given" to her 19 year old cousin, who forcibly raped her. Sickening. If it is not our job, the government's job, to help these children and prosecute the crimes committed against them, I frankly don't know what the heck our job is.

[khm]

On a slightly different tangent, has anyone wondered about the previously cast off teenage boys? If there are so many why haven't they been interviewed? I sort of feel like the press has missed the boat on the full story.

The Today show talked to three boys this morning along with a woman who is part of a foundation to help them. It started when her daughter brought home two boys and asked for help.

I think it's natural that the focus and interest is on the women right now. And, given that they are pretty willing to talk to reporters, that is kind of where the stories are right now. The "lost boys" are another tragedy and I do think more stories will come to light about them.

It is a sad, sad situation from many different angles. Very complicated and very overwhelming.

[kijip]

On a slightly different tangent, has anyone wondered about the previously cast off teenage boys? If there are so many why haven't they been interviewed? I sort of feel like the press has missed the boat on the full story.
There was a lot of coverage about the cast off boys in the months leading up to the conviction of Warren Jeffs, including a spread in I think Newsweek. Dan Fischer, a dentist who was raised in FLDS but who left and is an anti-polygamy activist, started a foundation called the Lost Boys Foundation. He has helped them with education, shelter and other resources. The lost boys are not a new story, they have been reported on for 4+ years now. They have a lawsuit pending against FLDS to compensate the boys for what they were put through. I recall reading over a year ago interviews with some of the boys. The luckiest ones went to high school, got jobs (often in construction) and are young men supporting themselves and even dating. Some however ended up on drugs or even working the streets. It is all so, so sad. The state in some cases was willing to prosecute the parents for abandoning their children but the boys did not want to/were not able to testify against their parents. I think they should be prosecuting Jeffs for that too (child endangerment) but it's clear that they have enough charges on him to keep him in jail forever, thankfully.

[bubbaray]

Check this out.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/04/18/ng.polygamy.crime.cnn

Towards the end. Jessop uses waterboarding on babies. Man, that is SERIOUSLY messed up. Seriously.

I feel sick.

[Tondi G]

Check this out.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2008/04/18/ng.polygamy.crime.cnn

Towards the end. Jessop uses waterboarding on babies. Man, that is SERIOUSLY messed up. Seriously.

I feel sick.

I agree... thats just disgusting and makes me ill! Those poor babies.

~Tondi

[kijip]

The judge has had the good sense to order maternity and paternity testing to sort out the family connections and also to keep the children in the custody of the state. Returning children to this situation would be reckless. Many crimes have been committed against them and surely would be if they were returned.

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_8975995

[kransden]

The judge has had the good sense to order maternity and paternity testing to sort out the family connections and also to keep the children in the custody of the state. Returning children to this situation would be reckless. Many crimes have been committed against them and surely would be if they were returned.

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_8975995

You know that is just sad they are so messed up that the kids can't tell people who their real mother is.

[Tondi G]

You know that is just sad they are so messed up that the kids can't tell people who their real mother is.

I agree but I suppose it would be confusing to a toddler or young child when your father has multiple wives and all the kids are together at some point... I could see where they wouldn't be entirely sure who their real mommy is!

I think paternity and maternity tests will help but it might not be definitive since so many of them are related anyways.... won't their DNA be linked somewhat. This judge doesn't have an easy job but I think they are doing the right thing so far!

~Tondi

[StantonHyde]

If you want some decent reporting on the Texas issue, the Lost Boys, polygamy in general-- www.sltrib.com (http://www.sltrib.com) is the Salt Lake Tribune website. But the most recent reporting will shock you in how sympathetic they are to the polygamists. I find it revolting and have actually been reading some of the TExas papers on line.

I am just thankful that FINALLY somebody had the guts to do something. This cult and 2 others like it have gotten away with tremendous fraud for years because in 1953 the governor of Arizona raided what was then Short Creek. There was TV footage of kids being torn from parents. The governor lost the next election. You just have to breathe "Short Creek" around here and people go into deep fear. PUHLEEZE. That was 50 years ago. They didn't even get to tell people about the sexual abuse etc. I was so grateful to read the testimony from the CPS workers--why should we return a baby just so it can be abused 10 years from now. Utah says it will prosecute abuse, but who is going to report it?

THe issues are: marriage to girls under 18, welfare fraud, kicking out hundreds of boys/men, sexual abuse, and horrific methods of control (giving a mother's baby to another mother to raise so the birth mother won't want to leave because she can't take her child)

In general, if consenting adults want to live in a polygamist marriage, I couldn't care less IF the family can support all those kids. A good model was a guy in Big Water who had 5 wives. 2-3 of them worked/had professional jobs and the others stayed home to care for the kids. (I don't think he worked though!)

Around here, the fathers will provide a place for the family to live (not a decent place mind you) and then it is up to the mother to provide food and clothing. And going on welfare etc is ENCOURAGED. It is actually called "bleeding the beast". And yes, family members all work at cult owned businesses and are not paid in $, but in credit to be used at cult stores. The patriarchs of these cults live LAVISH lifestyles. And yet they won't pay their child support!

The Kingstons have also been prosecuted for beating a girl who didn't want to marry her uncle. That clan is known for having children with horrible defects because they believe in so much in breeding. And sexual abuse of boys is frequently reported.

The saddest thing is that the mothers the media keeps referencing include the girls under 18. So you are putting children and their children in foster care. The babies and 2 year old boys are there because their adolescent mothers are in custody. These women truly have NO idea that they are victimizing their children. Heidi and Daniel Kingston were prosecuted in the last few years and she just kept talking about how much the children wanted to see their father. The man could not remember their names! When the kids were in foster care they were amazed that they could actually have seconds at dinner and get help getting dressed. The mothers are giving up the 13 year old girls. And if they didn't want to, it wouldn't matter-the prophet rules. If you disagree with him, they kick you out of your house, transfer your children and wife to another family, and you have nothing but the clothes on your back. And at one point in the Texas "raid", a worker asked a girl how old she was. She looked at her husband who said, "You are 18" She parroted back "I am 18" They truly lack the intellectual, working, and other skills to protect their children.

What sickens me is that people here say "my ancestors were polygamists, what's wrong with it". There's a big difference between 1850 when widowed women could not take care of themselves and it made sense to "marry" them to a man who could. Brigham Young had 27 wives--many of whom were older women who just needed someone to care for them financially. "It's in the bible" Yes, but that would be the Old Testament and Jesus made it clear that marriage was one man/one woman. "It's religious freedom"--child abuse is never ok.

[kijip]

I liked this editorial from the SLC paper:

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_8977683

[bubbaray]

And going on welfare etc is ENCOURAGED. It is actually called "bleeding the beast".


I've never understood this about the FLDS. Mormons don't believe in welfare or state assistance. They believe they are to have one year's worth of supplies/rations for themselves and their own family on hand. Plus, if a Mormon family falls on hard times, their church helps them out.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/mormon_welfare.html

http://libertariannation.org/a/f12e1.html

[C99]

Yes. And after reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" a few years ago, it makes me lean more toward the feeling that the FLDS people are crazy and the the men are just perverts, vs. feeling that hey, having many wives is no big deal. I think people have the right to practice their religion, but not if it involves forcing young girls to have sex.
There are no easy answers though, because there are now 400+ kids living without their families. So sad.

I really recommend that book to anyone who wants to learn more about the FLDS, BTW.

ITA. It details some pretty gruesome happenings, but the subject matter and the narration made it a very compelling read.

[kijip]

I've never understood this about the FLDS. Mormons don't believe in welfare or state assistance. They believe they are to have one year's worth of supplies/rations for themselves and their own family on hand. Plus, if a Mormon family falls on hard times, their church helps them out.



It's just an example that LDS and FLDS are not at all the same thing. Something LDS members are very happy to remind of us, I am sure. I suppose "bleeding the beast" would be an issue of need or perceived entitlement...very few could actually support 50 kids. And then the ones who would not qualify for payments if income and business assets were reported probably just can't resist the "free money".

We are storing food/building an emergency kit and in my research some of the best information is from LDS sites.

[kijip]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/localnews/columnists/jfloyd/stories/041808dnmetfloyd.736562d6.html

It is not the easy thing for the state to do, given the images of families being separated and the legacy in AZ/UT of the Short Creek Raid. But they are showing what I think is tremendous moral courage in confronting the underlying issues. These children have a long and rough road ahead of them, but it has to be an improvement overall from the abuse and control they have known.

[StantonHyde]

I would want to clarify that while Utah's LDS heritage makes the state more sympathetic to polygamists, the current church does not agree with the FLDS. And, interestingly enough, the way polygamy was practiced in the 1800s-early 1900s is not like the FLDS either. In fact, early pioneer women held public office, attended medical school, and were a pretty feisty lot.

Mormons are very much into self sufficiency. The Church runs its own canning facilities, farms, food packaging etc. And it does give away a great deal of money to people in other countries. Unfortunately, there is also a need to keep up with other families. Some people have a convoluted belief that the more righteous they are, the more they will be rewarded in this life. Thus outward trappings are evidence of their faith. This state has one of the highest bankruptcy rates in the US. Its a good thing the Church helps members.

The FLDS tenet comes from some fringe radical idea that the "government" needs to be defeated and one way to do that is to ruin it financially. Frankly, I think the FLDS will interpret anything to support their way of life.

Also, the families described in Krakauer's book are not FLDS families. I think the book is a very good description of what happens when people believe that all of their actions (no matter how crazy) are sanctioned by God.

One issue is that while the LDS church has renounced polygamy as a current practice (and even removed many references to it from church history)--it has not been removed from the "Doctrine and Covenants" in which it states that worthy men will practice polygamy in the afterlife. So you could say that the church still believes in polygamy. Personally, I think the church would get a lot of mileage if they denounced the afterlife polygamy practice. They have denounced doctrine in the past--most notably announcing that African American males were allowed to hold the preisthood in the 1970s. (a priest is any male over a certain age--maybe 11 or 13) This was huge since it had been preached for years that people of dark skin bore the mark of Caine blah blah blah.

You could go round and round on the religion issue and that is what trips up this state every time. Texas got it right--child abuse plain and simple.

[mik8]

I agree but I suppose it would be confusing to a toddler or young child when your father has multiple wives and all the kids are together at some point... I could see where they wouldn't be entirely sure who their real mommy is!

I think paternity and maternity tests will help but it might not be definitive since so many of them are related anyways.... won't their DNA be linked somewhat. This judge doesn't have an easy job but I think they are doing the right thing so far!

~Tondi Yes, it will be linked and it will be tedious to sort it out, but it still can be done. There are enough genetic differences between any two individuals to determine if they have the same parent. The way it is traditionally done is they cut up DNA (either by blood sample or buccal swab)with certain enzymes and then they look at the patterns of the DNA pieces when they run it out on a gel (but probably they have more of chips or advance/high technology to solve this). They will compare the kids pattern to those of the parent. It will be a complex task.

Indeed, this is a sad situation. I feel like it is a "no win" situation. I don't know.

[C99]

Also, the families described in Krakauer's book are not FLDS families. I think the book is a very good description of what happens when people believe that all of their actions (no matter how crazy) are sanctioned by God.

Are you sure? He talks about FLDS, Rulon and Warren Jeffs, Bountiful, and many of the other FLDS places and people mentioned in this thread.

[stella]

It's just wild, and it's in my county, so I have watched the CPS hearing in the courtroom daily.

[KBecks]

Yes, it will be linked and it will be tedious to sort it out, but it still can be done. There are enough genetic differences between any two individuals to determine if they have the same parent. The way it is traditionally done is they cut up DNA (either by blood sample or buccal swab)with certain enzymes and then they look at the patterns of the DNA pieces when they run it out on a gel (but probably they have more of chips or advance/high technology to solve this). They will compare the kids pattern to those of the parent. It will be a complex task.

Indeed, this is a sad situation. I feel like it is a "no win" situation. I don't know.

Do you think it will be possible to sort out whether, say a 16 year old and 2 year old are mother/son vs sister/brother?

I am curious to see if the adults will consent to the DNA testing. Even so, I'm wondering if there will be evidence enough among the group of minor children.

I know what you mean about a no win situation, this certainly is stressful for the kids. Hopefully there will be some truth and justice that comes of it and some net positive. If not as much for these kids, for future generations as well. I hope the CPS and government really steps up to help kids transition and address the special concerns of these kids coming into a whole new world outside.

[mik8]

Do you think it will be possible to sort out whether, say a 16 year old and 2 year old are mother/son vs sister/brother?

If they're sister and brother, they should both have some genetic markers in common with their father but if they are mother and son that should not be the case. But if the father is the brother (let's just say for worst scenario brother-sister incest), it may be almost impossible to figure out. It's real complicated.

[StantonHyde]

While Krakauer's book does discuss the Jeffs, the LeBaron's who committed the murders are not FLDS. Maybe they were some offshoot but it was a different clan all together.

I think it is also important/fair to note that there are independent polygamists who live "normal" lives and raise great kids etc. If you look at the twin city in ARizona (I cannot think of the name right now)--they split from Jeffs and live different lives than the FLDS. I also think it is odd that the media makes a big deal about kids who have never seen TV or played video games or been to mcDonalds. Like that's a bad thing? It is bad to have a group so cloistered and terrified of the outside world, but I think kids are fine if they don't get kids meals. (mine, of course, do :) )

I would say the dividing line is: 1.Total control by a patriarch. Read more about Jeffs to see what I mean by that. 2. Marrying underage girls 3. Having more children than a family can support and planning on using welfare to support those families

One argument used here is that there are "inner city" populations where girls routinely get pregnant at 13 by older men. That those men have children by many girls and do not marry them nor do they pay child support. And that those populations use welfare to support those families. I worked in a Philadelphia hospital and it is true that I did see those things. But its not like its an organized effort.

[kijip]

I think it is also important/fair to note that there are independent polygamists who live "normal" lives and raise great kids etc. If you look at the twin city in ARizona (I cannot think of the name right now)--they split from Jeffs and live different lives than the FLDS.

Centennial Park? They have pretty typical families, aside from the plural marriage thing. A man is more likely to have 2-4 wives and the family is likely to have 6-12 kids. The women are also fairly likely to work or stay home on their own choice and the typical family lives in reasonable comfort. (Whereas in Colorado City/Hilsdale you will see a lot of dusty poverty- pictures I have seen show dilapidated trailers, books describe kids malnourished and who have very little in terms of shoes/clothes, most women don't work unless it is for the FLDS run stores/businesses.) I really don't have an issue with polygamy if it is a choice all involved are making but I of course have an issue with rape, child abuse, fraud, control etc. The neatly dressed people you see coming out of the ranch in Texas are among the elite in the group.