and more on the TX polygamy case...

[shilo]

just saw this while reading news tonight. more than half (31 of 53) of the teenage girls aged 14-17 years old are pregnant or have had a child.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/28/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html

i know parents can legally allow their daughters over 16 to be married in TX, but i'm just so bothered by this, especially as a pattern in this community. i do agree with many who posted in the previous thread that ethically and as a society free to practice religious beliefs of choice this case poses some very slippery slopes. but i'm not sure i personally can reconcile first amendment rights with what i can only view as the forcible rape or at least statutory rape of minors :(. this is such a tough and sad situation.

lori

[kedss]

I'm really bothered by it too, on the other hand, I do wish they had confirmed that "Sarah" was real before they took all the kids and mothers out. And, I wonder what has happened to the men at the compound, we don't seem to be hearing much about them.

I think part of it is the logistics, how is the court going to fairly listen to each individual case? I think if they are going to pull the chidlren from their mothers, they should each have the opportunity to be heard.

[StantonHyde]

When I saw the #s who have had children, I just said "I knew it". The bottom line is that even if Sarah was a hoax, the conditions exist at this ranch and in that community. It is sad to separate kids away from their mothers. Yet there are many kids in that compound who were sent there by their parents (and the parents live elsewhere). And we have to remember that these mothers do NOT have their childrens' best interests in mind. All of those underage girls who were married/had children had mothers you could not or would not protect them. In the Green case prosecuted a few years ago, one of his wives gave her new husband one of her daughters when the girl was 13 and he was 40 something. His stepdaughter whom he helped raise!!! We just are not talking about a rational decision making process.

You aren't going to hear from the men because they have gone underground so they won't be prosecuted for statutory rape. It is harder to compile the evidence to prosecute the men--that only happens when a victim escapes and agrees to file charges. That is very few and far between. I can think of 4-5 cases in the last 6 years or so.

So the state went the other way and removed the kids, which they could do quickly. They needed to move fast. If someone in the FLDS group knew they were under ANY suspicion, that person would be moved out of state (probably down to Mexico) in a flash.

[KBecks]

There's also apparently a big discrepancy in the number of older girls vs. older boys. There were very few 14-17 year old boys in the group, while the younger kids were almost evenly boys and girls.

[bubbaray]

I still think the warrants to search the ranch could be flawed if Sarah was a hoax. If the warrants were flawed, then the search could be warrantless. Not sure what the law in TX is on warrantless searches. Might be OK if there are children in imminent danger, though I'm not sure that the evidence that has come out so far is enough to show imminent harm. The closest I've heard is the waterboarding of infants.

None of that is to say that I in any way agree with what obviously happens on the ranch. I'm just sayin' there could be problems with the warrant if Sarah was a hoax.

[tiapam]

There's also apparently a big discrepancy in the number of older girls vs. older boys. There were very few 14-17 year old boys in the group, while the younger kids were almost evenly boys and girls.

There is a documentary about the boys around that age who are basically ejected (or leave on their own) from the group and their families so they will not be around for the young girls.

http://polygamyslostboys.com/index.html

The thing is, this group has been conducting themselves like this for years. So the initial abuse was generations ago and now they claim it as a way of life/religion. I think it is sad and wrong. I don't see this as a religious issue, we are talking about people's (children's) bodies.

[stella]

It was not a warrantless search. The warrant was issued by a district judge based on the information available to law enforcement at the time the warrant was requested.

It's the four corners rule. That's not to say that the defense won't try to argue it, but the law is well-established on the point. Once law enforcement got down there and saw all those pregnant young girls, CPS was obligated to act as they would in any other situation.

[vonfirmath]

Maybe there is still justice. (two months late, grrr)
Court grants appeal by FLDS mothers (http://www.kxan.com/global/story.asp?s=8365745)
Quote: "In the decision, the Court ruled that CPS failed to provide any evidence that the children were in imminent danger and acted hastily in removing them from their families."

(Oh and if you are still following this case? There have been MANy of those "minors" CPS claimed finally being declared adults. What's more, CPS has known they are adults since the beginning. IE no new evidence of age than what they gave the authorities in the beginning. It is beginning to look like the discrepancy in #s of girls vs boys in that age group was because of the number of adult women CPS insisted were girls.)

And that 14-year old isn't pregnant. Even though CPS said she was.)

Articles:
http://www.sltrib.com/Salt%20Lake%20Tribune%20Home%20Page/ci_9346914 -- "Texas officials concede at least 15 sect mothers adults"

http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9343001 -- "Lawyer: FLDS girl isn't pregnant"

[brittone2]

I'm saddened that the kids that were removed were vaccinated, even though their families decline vaccines for religious reasons. IMO, until the parental rights were terminated due to proof of abuse/neglect (and refusing vaccines on religious grounds is not considered neglect), it is absolutely horrible to subject these children to vaccines against parental consent.

The evidence in this case looks quite wishy-washy. If there are children being abused/neglected, they certainly need to investigate. However, vaccinating those children without parental consent when the parental rights haven't been terminated saddens me tremendously.

eta: I didn't read the links posted directly above but I heard on CNN that several of the moms that were thought to be underage were not, and said they were underage because that allowed them to stay with their babies (if the mom was 19 or 20, she'd say she was 17 so they wouldn't be separated).

[StantonHyde]

In defense of CPS--the FLDS members have given conflicting info throughout this process e.g ages, names, family relationships etc. This group is known to lie on government records to qualify for public assistance so I am not sure I believe their "official documents".

Marrying off underage girls is a long, ongoing pattern. The leader of this sect is a currently jailed, convicted sex offender. The case that sent him to jail involved arranging the marriage of a 14 year old girl to her 19 year old cousin. The children's religious texts still have pictures of the sect leader and quotes from him. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of parents who slavishly follow a convicted sex offender--who give their daughters up for these underage marriages.

While the vaccines are problematic, these kids were going to be placed with other families and would place those families at risk. This community often has outbreaks of measles etc. Here in Utah, we get outbreaks of whooping cough and many other severe communicable diseases because there are enough families that do not vaccinate and do congregate--so very little "herd immunity" as it were.

I am still waiting for the DNA testing. I see that, finally, some of the fathers are stepping up to the plate and showing up to take custody of their children. I cannot imagine having my children taken away and not being able to see them but I cannot imagine following the arbitrary dictates of a convicted sex offender either.

[tnrnchick74]

In defense of CPS--the FLDS members have given conflicting info throughout this process e.g ages, names, family relationships etc. This group is known to lie on government records to qualify for public assistance so I am not sure I believe their "official documents".

Marrying off underage girls is a long, ongoing pattern. The leader of this sect is a currently jailed, convicted sex offender. The case that sent him to jail involved arranging the marriage of a 14 year old girl to her 19 year old cousin. The children's religious texts still have pictures of the sect leader and quotes from him. I find it very difficult to trust the judgement of parents who slavishly follow a convicted sex offender--who give their daughters up for these underage marriages.

While the vaccines are problematic, these kids were going to be placed with other families and would place those families at risk. This community often has outbreaks of measles etc. Here in Utah, we get outbreaks of whooping cough and many other severe communicable diseases because there are enough families that do not vaccinate and do congregate--so very little "herd immunity" as it were.

I am still waiting for the DNA testing. I see that, finally, some of the fathers are stepping up to the plate and showing up to take custody of their children. I cannot imagine having my children taken away and not being able to see them but I cannot imagine following the arbitrary dictates of a convicted sex offender either.

Well put! From the reports I have read/seen, this group has NOT been very honest of forthcoming with the investigators. I can't imagine how DCS is even ABLE to investigate.

While I believe in vaccinations, I also support the rights of parents to make educated decisions on whether to vaccinate or not. Unfortunatly for the parent's rights, the risk to the families and other children that these FLDS children are being placed with outweigh the parents' rights. There is a big potential for pandemic exposure. So as much as I hate to see parent's decision being overturned, I do understand it in this situation.

This entire situation is sad...very sad for all involved. I in NO way condone underage sex, underage marriage, child abuse, or any of the other alligations - but the sheer enormity of the numbers of children and families seperated is overwhelming and very sad.

[bubbaray]

While the vaccines are problematic, these kids were going to be placed with other families and would place those families at risk. This community often has outbreaks of measles etc. Here in Utah, we get outbreaks of whooping cough and many other severe communicable diseases because there are enough families that do not vaccinate and do congregate--so very little "herd immunity" as it were.



:yeahthat:

[brittone2]

I don't see the government vaccinating all of the children in other areas of the country that have low rates of vaccination for philosophical/religious reasons (such as Boulder, CO). The children in Boulder attend public school right along with their peers.

JMO. I understand your point, but I still consider it extremely disrespectful of the family's religious right to avoid vaccinating.

I am seriously concerned about abuse with the FLDS members, but I still think mandating their children be vaxed oversteps the line.

[JBaxter]

I don't see the government vaccinating all of the children in other areas of the country that have low rates of vaccination for philosophical/religious reasons (such as Boulder, CO). The children in Boulder attend public school right along with their peers.

JMO. I understand your point, but I still consider it extremely disrespectful of the family's religious right to avoid vaccinating.

I am seriously concerned about abuse with the FLDS members, but I still think mandating their children be vaxed oversteps the line.

:yeahthat:

Foster families who agree to take these children know the risks of taking any child in to their home. Where I agree that abuse should never be allowed to continue they have yet to convict ANY of those parents of anything. They are in a big mess in Texas. The parents still have rights to the children reguarding their welfare. It would be the same as ... oh we think the social norm is circing all the boys and line them up and circ them. Some people have very strong beliefs in what are IN the vaccines. They dont know their medical history on all the children. Such as have they had measles, mumps rubella, chickenpox, pertussis rotavirus etc.

[brittone2]

:yeahthat:

Foster families who agree to take these children know the risks of taking any child in to their home. Where I agree that abuse should never be allowed to continue they have yet to convict ANY of those parents of anything. They are in a big mess in Texas. The parents still have rights to the children reguarding their welfare. It would be the same as ... oh we think the social norm is circing all the boys and line them up and circ them. Some people have very strong beliefs in what are IN the vaccines. They dont know their medical history on all the children. Such as have they had measles, mumps rubella, chickenpox, pertussis rotavirus etc.

And Jeana, you can probably verify this based off of your training as a foster parent, but when I was working in early intervention, I worked w/ many foster families. In many cases, the foster parents are not told whether or not the child is HIV positive or positive for Hep B, and they are advised to use universal precautions as a result. Medical histories on any of these kids are not always readily available or disclosed, IME.

[JBaxter]

And Jeana, you can probably verify this based off of your training as a foster parent, but when I was working in early intervention, I worked w/ many foster families. In many cases, the foster parents are not told whether or not the child is HIV positive or positive for Hep B, and they are advised to use universal precautions as a result. Medical histories on any of these kids are not always readily available or disclosed, IME.


Exactly... Any child could have anything from a veneral disease to lice. Vaccines are the last things you worry about. You just hope they dont have lasting injuries from beatings, malnutrition severe allergies that no one knows about when they were "found" at the walmart etc. The news tonight stated that the CPS overstepped their bounds and the children may have to be returned. Someone really screwed up several of the "underage" mothers were in their 20's.

[ShanaMama]

I have hesitated to post about this before because I have such mixed feeling about the case. I have to say, though, that I am was saddened to hear that the move to take all the children was ruled unconstitutional (or unprovable, whatever the technicalities are). From what I've read about the group there are some serious things wrong there. Watching the clips of those mothers freaked me out- they all seemed completely robotic, almost brainwashed.
It may have been the wrong thing to remove the children from the constitutional perspective, but I think it was the right one from a moral perspective. I also understand the slippery slope of govt. making decisions from a moral perspective rather than what's constituational. From a mother's angle I can imagine how painful it must be, but I think those mothers are victims as well, underage or not. If Texas were to keep the children in CPS system it would be a long hard road, & who knows if they wouldn't blow it. But I don't feel that leaving the children to the life they were leading was a safe choice in the long term. The whole thing is so sad.

[purpleeyes]

I am saddened that many children may not be helped b/c it is turning into a big cluster.
Those young women are being GROOMED, no ifs ands or buts about it. Just b/c it is under the guise of religion doesn't make it ok, IMO, it makes it worse.