Why we discipline the way we do... (long)

[ha98ed14]

Perhaps some of you can relate, or even add a little perspective to my first-time-mom crisis of conscience, for lack of a better phrase...

I was in the baby room at church this morning. It is the room for moms of kids under 2 to tend their babies during the service. Our church doesn't do a nursery. So I'm sitting there with DD (just turned 1 y.o.) in the circle on the floor with other moms with their babies under a year. DD is sitting in front of me. She is going through a "pull hair, grab eyes, grab nose and try to rip it off" phase. She was working her moves on a little boy (8-9 mos) and his mom was sitting right there. We are friends so I felt pretty comfortable that she would move DD's hands as needed. But I was watching and I kept saying, "No grabbing; Be gentle." So after going through this 3 or 4 times. I got into a conversation with another mom. I wasn't watching so close and DD reaches out and is grabbing this little boy's face. Her hands are already on him. I grabbed her hand back and slapped it and said, "No!" After I did it, my heart sank. I hit my baby. I raised my hand against my own child. She cried a little. I didn't hit her hard.

The group of moms that was sitting there are all pretty strict with discipline, especially when it comes to their kids hurting other children. All of the babies there under a year were 2nd or 3rd children, so these ladies have had a lot more time to figure out how they want to parent than I have. I actually like this camp of moms, the "strict moms." I think they are good parents and their kids (from age 1 to 5) are usually very well behaved.

There is another camp of moms at church who are more Attachment Parent style, or maybe just lax disciplinarians. Their kids say rude things and don't get reprimanded. They are mean or rough with younger children and get away with it. These kids also happen to be boys and the oldests are older (6 to 8 y.o.) than the oldests kids of the group of "strict moms" I was sitting with. And in very un-Christian character, the "strict moms" spend a lot of time criticizing the parenting style of the "lax moms" and how obnoxious their kids are. And honestly I usually agree with the strict moms. If my child acted like these kids do, I would be horrified. And it is not just the older boys, their younger boys and girls are also rude/ sassy and show little regard for the feelings of other kids. I do NOT want DD to grow up to act like this, so I feel I need to parent the way the strict moms do, which includes disciplining a 1 year old. In fact, one of the strict moms said, "Yeah, discipline is rough, but how else is she going to know she can't do that?" when I expressed concern that maybe I should not have hit DD's hand. They clearly approved of my discipline.

But still now, 12 hours later, I wonder WHY I reacted that way. Was it the irritation of seeing her do it AGAIN after we just talked about it? Was it the pressure of all the other moms there watching how I was going to handle this situation? I'm not sure. But I do know that it felt wrong to hit my kid. Maybe it is because she is very young. Maybe I will never feel right using spanking or slapping a hand. I don't know.

So I guess my question is, why do you discipline the way you do?

[katydid1971]

Attachment parents aren't them same as lax disciplinarians. You don't have to hit your child to get them to behave, you set resonable boundries and you follow through. I am often complimented on the behavior of my son and I have NEVER hit him. I find this website to be helpful. http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/

[lisams]

I would say I strive (and that is the key word!) for gentle (AP I guess you'd call it) discipline. That does not mean that I sit back and let my children do things that are not appropriate or be hurtful others. I try to be mindful of what is age appropriate as far as expectations and what works for each child given their personalities and age. While my DD has her 5 year old moments, I would say in general she is a very caring and kind child. She is so gentle and sweet with her little brother. DS while a little too young, already shows empathy to others (he tries to take toys to DD when she's crying or gets very concerned when he sees others upset). I try to keep in mind that how I handle their misbehaviors is a perfect opportunity for a learning moment. I do not want them to grow up thinking that hitting and yelling solves problems. There have been days where I appologized to DD for yelling at her and explained to her how I wished I would have handled the moment better - because I also want my children to know that noone is perfect, but we can ask for forgiveness and learn from those moments. So that's pretty much why I discipline how I do (well and it makes me feel better inside when I strive for it).

[shilo]

I would say I strive (and that is the key word!) for gentle (AP I guess you'd call it) discipline. That does not mean that I sit back and let my children do things that are not appropriate or be hurtful others. I try to be mindful of what is age appropriate as far as expectations and what works for each child given their personalities and age.

yep, that pretty much sums it up here too. i'm a big believer in 'firm but kind' and 'consistency is key' because it really has worked for us, but i don't think most people here would observe me with DS and call me 'strict'. for a 3 year old DS is extremely well behaved. but he IS _3_. that means he test's boundaries, he's all about independence right now, and he's full of curiosity. we do have age appropriate consequences at this point. i'll give you a few examples from last month: you can't keep your feet off the dinner table? then you must be done eating - or you're having trouble staying next to mommy in the store? you must need to sit in the stroller/cart and take a break for a few minutes. logical, immediate, firm consequences that he can grasp at his age and start to understand the 'rules' of our family but done in a kind way with no anger on my part. i guess some probably would call this 'lax', but i can tell you, a month later, i'm not dealing with either of these two issues now - they've self corrected without yelling or hitting.

only you can decide where your comfort level is, and it is absolutely an ongoing learning process with no end game in sight (ok, maybe when they're 24? but i imagine i'll still be continuously relearning how to be the best parent i can be at that point too). it's okay to question how you handled the situation today - that's part of being a good mama in my opinion! the fact that you're still feeling like maybe you wish you would have handled it differently does tell me that you maybe haven't quite found a groove yet that suits where _you_ and your DD are at right now tho. and that's OK! you recognize that your personal parenting goal aligns with being more 'strict' - but you need to define what 'strict' is for _you_ not the other mom's in your circle.

i think it's only natural to look at those around you and evaluate what _you see_ as working or not working in other families. we (humans) do learn an awful lot by observation. but i think there are plenty of ways that involve setting limits, and establishing age appropriate behavioral expectations that don't need to involve 'hitting' if that's not what you're personally comfortable with.

in the situation you describe, i can only describe for you my own revelations at a similar age in my DS. one was that i needed to educate myself a little better every 3-6 mos or so on what was 'age-appropriate' or common behavior for any given developmental state we were at and develop _reasonable_ expectations to go along with that. and two was that if i was committed to my "firm but kind" and "consistency is key" mantra, it was going to take a little more vigilance on my part on the front end to have the desirable behavior become routine for DS as the outcome on the back end. but you know, i can't think of a behavior that we weren't able to modify with DS in what looking back was a relatively short period of time.

anyway, at one, it may be an expectation beyond her age that she will be able to remember two minutes later that you've asked her to use gentle hands. at one "gentle hands, one finger touches" was an every single pet thing with our cats for example. by 18mos it was maybe every-third and by 2 DS didn't need the cue except maybe the first pet. but at one, it was _every single time_ and IIRC, that's pretty age-appropriate. they don't have the internal impulse control to limit their exuberance at that age.

so in my usual long-winded style, i guess what i'm trying to say is, be gentle with yourself and be open to the learning you need to do too. it's okay not to get it right the first time (and there is a valuable lesson in that for our kiddo's too, you know?). all you can do is think of things you want to do/try differently next time and then have the mental discipline to try it out. i'm not saying don't have your conversation, mommy's needs don't always come last here. but maybe you take turns - some time for DD to get your undivided attention while she explores with cues from you, followed by some time where you scoop her up for a hug and a few minutes of hip time while you have your conversation in standing. the needs of both of you get met in increasingly longer/overlapping time periods as your DD gets older, i promise :), but right now, that may be what's needed to accomplish both.

hth, lori

[1964pandora]

Attachment parents aren't them same as lax disciplinarians. You don't have to hit your child to get them to behave, you set resonable boundries and you follow through. I am often complimented on the behavior of my son and I have NEVER hit him. I find this website to be helpful. http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/

YES! The Gentle Christian Mothers website is fantastic for Christian mothers who are struggling with how to discipline their DC.


Susan

[elephantmeg]

(nak) it is hard, isn't it? I really started thinking about discipline at that age when I wasso frustrated that I lightly spanked him once-and felt horrified. We do a lot of warnings and then time outs and then ending of privilages. I do nursery a lot at church so I totally see where you are comming from. I do a warning plus a redirection and then a time out where I hold him in my arms and ignore him. He's old enough now that I feel he knows the big rules so last Sun he pushed a kid away off the slide and he went into immediate time out for that. Good luck!

[egoldber]

I try to discipline in a way that is age appropriate and that is loving, but consistent and firm. I also choose my battles carefully, and everyone is different in that regard. (There are some things that don't bother me, but bother other people, and vice versa.)

I never, ever hit my children. I personally think it is wrong. But more than that, there is no research which shows that physcial discipline is more effective than other types of discipline.

I definitely agree that "gentle" discipline does not equal lax discipline. I actually think its harder to be an effective gentle disciplinarian, because you have to work to not let your own emotions in the moment overwhelm you and you have to be on your toes all the time with an appropriate response.

[lizajane]

I try to discipline in a way that is age appropriate and that is loving, but consistent and firm. I also choose my battles carefully, and everyone is different in that regard. (There are some things that don't bother me, but bother other people, and vice versa.)

I never, ever hit my children. I personally think it is wrong. But more than that, there is no research which shows that physcial discipline is more effective than other types of discipline.

I definitely agree that "gentle" discipline does not equal lax discipline. I actually think its harder to be an effective gentle disciplinarian, because you have to work to not let your own emotions in the moment overwhelm you and you have to be on your toes all the time with an appropriate response.

ditto ditto ditto.

and gentle discipline is NOT lax. the other moms you describe do NOT subscribe to gentle discipline. they appear to have NO discipline. VERY different.

my 5 year old just smacked my 3 year old in the back because he wasn't playing the way the 5 year old wanted. he was sent to his room. he asked me over and over when he could come back with a very worried and upset look on his face. going to his room is VERY uncomfortable for him, as he can't stand to be separated from us. hitting him for hitting his brother would reinforce the BAD behavior and teach him that a quick smack WILL get you what you want. being separated and missing out on the fun shows him that a quick reaction of hitting makes HIM lose out.

[brittone2]

I'm a huge believer in gentle discipline. In fact, I'd dare say I'm probably *more* strict than a lot of people I know. I enforce what I say, and I mean what I say.

You can be a spanking parent that says "no, don't do that" 10 times and then smacks your kid on the 11th. You can be a gently disciplining parent that says it once and then gets up and intervenes (gently) immediately (affectionately referred to on the GCM site as "get off your butt parenting" LOL). Spanking doesn't necessarily equate with "strictness" and gentleness doesn't necessarily equate with permissiveness.

II don't use time outs (other than very rarely when I'm about to lose my mind and tell DS he needs to hang in his room for a while), smacking, slapping, spanking, etc.

You can be authoritative without being authoritarian. You can be gentle without being permissive. I find there are so many tools in the toolbox (Playful Parenting types of tricks, etc.) that it just isn't necessary to spank, IME.

I echo the other comments about gentlechristianmothers.com. The discipline site there is fabulous, IMO. I learned about it here, and have found it so helpful, along with books like:
Playful Parenting (Cohen)
Unconditional Parenting and also Punished by Rewards (Alfie Kohn)
Positive Discipline (Nelsen)
Parent Effectiveness Training (Gordon) and his later book P.E.T. in Action

ETA: I would also consider myself an attachment parenting type of parent. We cosleep, tandem/extended nurse, babywear, etc. so I guess I'm an AP parent. I know plenty of lax/non disciplining parents that are not AP and I know some that are AP. They don't go hand in hand. I also think for a parent that is accustomed to more punitive discipline (spanking or even time outs), some of the gentle discipline techniques may *look* permissive in some cases, but that doesn't mean they *are* permissive. You can stop a behavior without necessarily needing to follow up with *punishing* for it in many cases. JMO.

[maestramommy]

I would characterize my style of discipline as somewhere in between your "strict" moms and AP. I think I'm pretty strict, and although I don't spank I do timeouts. But I don't call them timeouts, I call them "going to bed, going in your crib." I use them when I can see that Dora is headed for a bad meltdown. To me I think of it as her needing to be left alone so she can vent in peace. It really works well, because when it's over (don't have a set time limit) it's like we've hit the rewind and reset button, she can start over. She's much happier, and more cooperative.

I did slap her hand or her leg a couple of times on a road trip. Once out of desperation because she was poking Arwyn's eyes, and once as a purely knee jerk reaction when she kicked me in the stomach. But I do not hold spanking as a part of my arsenal. This is not to say there aren't times when I would LIKE to spank her. But I really don't want to do it if there are other ways.

To answer your original question, I go with this method because it seems to work well for Dora's temperment, and it helps me feel more in control of the situation.

[DrSally]

These are a lot of thoughtful questions. I don't think attachment parenting is the same as lax discipline. Discipline is defined as "teaching", rather than punishment (which included slapping). Some people don't discipline at all either out of guilt or laziness. IMO, AP starts in infancy and begins with trust and bonding/"attachment", so the child is open to the parent's teaching and influence. It is actually pretty labor/effort intensive, but seems to get easier as you go and build on previous time "investments". Anyway, the reason I choose not to slap or use physical punishment esp. is that:
1) it doesn't sit well with me (doesn't feel right).
2) it has been proven through research to be ineffective, only temporarily suppressing behavior, and causing an increased rebound in the negative behavior in the long term b/c the child feels either angry or scared.
3)Many parents use physical discipline to discharge their own anger onto the child and the potential for loss of control is strong.
4) Loss of trust in the parent/child relationship.
5) Sends the wrong msg. to the child (bigger people can control you through force), esp. as it applies to controlling aggressive behavior.

Those are my reasons for not using physical punishment and generally avoiding punishment in favor of positive (praise/direction) or negative reinforcement (time-outs) altough I haven't had to use them yet. At 2.5, DS is gentle by nature and (I hope) parenting. He started sharing and showing empathy before age 2, which usually happens closer to age 3. Anyway, I'm not trying to say he's perfect in any way, but I take his sensitive and mostly cooperative temperment into account when dealing with him. He gets very upset when others are hurt or upset and is very open to our wishes, so usually a few simple "commands" (no banging, no throwing) and redirection are enough in his case.

ETA: I strongly agree with pp's about factoring in age appropriate behavior. Babies don't know cause and effect (I was slapped b/c I pinched, so I shouldn't pinch), don't have a lot of forethought, etc.

ETA

[brittone2]

These are a lot of thoughtful questions. I don't think attachment parenting is the same as lax discipline. Discipline is defined as "teaching", rather than punishment (which included slapping). Some people don't discipline at all either out of guilt or laziness. IMO, AP starts in infancy and begins with trust and bonding/"attachment", so the child is open to the parent's teaching and influence. It is actually pretty labor/effort intensive, but seems to get easier as you go and build on previous time "investments". Anyway, the reason I choose not to slap or use physical punishment esp. is that:
1) it doesn't sit well with me (doesn't feel right).
2) it has been proven through research to be ineffective, only temporarily suppressing behavior, and causing an increased rebound in the negative behavior in the long term b/c the child feels either angry or scared.
3)Many parents use physical discipline to discharge their own anger onto the child and the potential for loss of control is strong.
4) Loss of trust in the parent/child relationship.
5) Sends the wrong msg. to the child (bigger people can control you through force), esp. as it applies to controlling aggressive behavior.

Those are my reasons for not using physical punishment and generally avoiding punishment in favor of positive (praise/direction) or negative reinforcement (time-outs).

Adding to this, there have also been studies showing that when punishment is regularly used, kids tend to "misbehave" etc. once they realize there is no adult/enforcer in the room. So in many cases it ultimately doesn't teach them to do the right things for the right reasons, but instead to behave out of fear of the punishment. Once the "punisher" is absent, the child will often act out if they think no one is watching.

(i'm butchering exact details there I'm sure, but that's the generally gist I believe).

[JTsMom]

I know this is going to be long, and possibly choppy b/c I have to write a little at a time, so fair warning in advance LOL.

First :hug: for you. We all make parenting choices that we later question and/or regreat. We're learning too- not just the kids, and one thing I learned (from GCM btw, and I'm not the least bit religious) is that we need to be gentle and forgiving of ourselves too, not just our kids. It's ok to start off believing one thing, then changing your mind as you learn more about your child- in fact, I think it's a good thing. I'm sure you've heard cracks about people who don't have children thinking they know everything about parenting? There's a reason people make those jokes!

As for why I discipline the way I do (AP)- there are many reasons, and I could never fully explain them on a message board. One is my background- I have a BA in psych, and I am certified in elem. ed. The things I learned in school about child development, and how people learn have lead me in this direction. Another is that I find that my style is what works well for my child. Other reasons include my own childhood experiences, the fact that this style is what makes sense in my own gut, and most importantly this is what I truley believe, in my own heart, to the depths of my soul, is the right thing to do.

It's already been said, but I want to be clear that I fully agree with the statements about AP parenting NOT being the same thing as permissive parenting. I think that false assumption is what leads a lot of people to believe that the children you see behaving in unacceptable ways are results of failed AP parenting. The AP parents I know IRL have some of the kindest, gentlest, pleasant-to-be-around kids I've ever met. The parents tend to be very aware of what their children are doing, and since they have made parenting their most important "job", they act quickly to discipline. I think another key point worth mentioning is that discipline does not mean punish- discipline means teach.

In the example you gave above, my ideal way of handling it (and please don't think I'm saying I am a perfect parent, believe me, I make PLENTY of mistakes, and I have LOTS to learn, I'm just saying if I was at my best this is how I would do it) would have started out similarly enough.

I would have started with explaining that we use gentle touches. Next, I would have thought about why she was doing it, and whether or not it was an age-appropriate expectation for DC to control that behavior- I would probably have decided she was just exploring faces, and touches, and it was not something she could really be expected to control on her own. NOT that this means it should be allowed to continue, but that I needed to help her.

I then would have moved DC far enough away from the other child so that she was unable to do it again, and then I would have given her something similar that WAS ok for her to do, for example, a baby doll who's face she could touch, or a child safe mirror so that she could check out her own face. If she continually came back to the baby, I would move even further away. I would not, under any circumstances, give her the chance to continue being rough.

Also, I would have been working with her before the incident on gentle touches, and more after the incident at home, showing her to respect people's boundaries, and modeling gentleness.

So, in answer to your friend's question about how else would she learn, I would say:
1. Prevention 2. Explanation 3. Modeling 4. Redirection 5. Removal from the situation

It might appear to an outsider that I "did nothing" but clearly, I would be doing a lot about it.

Going along with the ideas behind AP parenting, EVERYBODY has rights, and one of the foremost rights people should have is to be safe in their own space. Although my DC has a right to explore his world, he does not have the right to infringe upon others' rights, and I do my very best to make sure he does not.

No discipline style "works" in the sense that you do it once, and the undesired behavior dissappears forever. AP is no different. You have to teach the same lessons over and over, but eventually the child learns.

You've already been given some great recs for books/websites, but I thought I'd add that Kohn also has a DVD that is a really quick way to get a lot of info on the AP mindset. He goes into great detail on the "whys" and also gives some examples of "how".

FWIW, I think the fact that you are putting a lot of thought into this shows that you are a really committed, and loving parent.


P.S. I have no time to proof this right now, so please excuse any typos!

[ha98ed14]

Lori,

Thanks for your post. EVERYTHING you said was super helpful, especially the part about it being ok that I have not totally figured it out. I feel less guilty. Thanks for giving me permission to be, um, human. I think we hold ourselves to the standard of "make no mistakes" because its our kids we are talking about, but in reality, that is not possible. Everything has a learning curve, evening being a mom & discipline. I *know* that in my head, but I still need the external validation that its ok to "be gentle with myself," as you said.

One question, WHERE do I find information about what is age approriate behavior and therefore appropriate correction/ discipline? For example, how did you know that at 1, they don't remember for more than 2 minutes? It may seem obvious to others, but I actually need to be explicitly told/ read it somewhere to have it stick.

Thanks for your supportive message; it meant a lot. :)

[brittone2]

Ames and Ilig have a series called "Your X Year Old" (so there is "Your One Year Old", "Your Two Year Old", etc. etc.)

They are helpful in terms of getting a good picture of normal/typical development. I would skip any discipline advice as a lot of it is probably outdated, but the overall snapshot they provide of a given age is really helpful IMO.

[Jenny_A]

I just wanted to say that this is a great thread and I have taken a lot from it! I struggle too OP! I espcially could relate to how you thought you might have felt pressure from the other "strict" Moms in the situation you described. Sometimes I feel other Moms looking and seeming to say, "How are you going to deal with that behavior?". It's wrong to parent via peer pressure but I do feel it sometimes.

Anyway, good thread!

Jenny

[shilo]

Lori,
One question, WHERE do I find information about what is age approriate behavior and therefore appropriate correction/ discipline? For example, how did you know that at 1, they don't remember for more than 2 minutes? It may seem obvious to others, but I actually need to be explicitly told/ read it somewhere to have it stick.

Thanks for your supportive message; it meant a lot. :)

you're very welcome, we've all been there - repeatedly :).

as far as age appropriate info, it comes from all sorts of places. i tend to do a lot of reading on the net, less in true 'parenting' books, but still some. i do have several of the books listed here as well as the AAP 'caring for your baby birth to age 5', '1-2-3 magic' and 'parenting with love and logic'. for me i take smatterings from all of them.

as far as websites, some of my bookmarks with good discipline and age appropriate expectations info (besides the oft referred to gentle christian mothers - even for/by those of us who don't consider ourselves particularly 'christian' per se) are:

http://www.babycenter.com/302_development_1516048.bc
http://www.pbs.org/wholechild/abc/index.html
http://www.robynsnest.com/
http://www.yourbabytoday.com/channel/milestones/index.html

and i google. words like 'normal behavior', 'developmental milestones', 'age appropriate', etc. with whatever age i'm dealing with. you'd be surprised what's out there. just remember that will all things development related there is no ONE time or ONE path your kiddo 'should' be taking. everything has a 'range' of normal, including behavior. just like their fine and gross motor and speech skills, some kids will sail thru certain aspects of behavior and stumble a bit with others. this is totally NORMAL.

so basically, for me, i read from a variety of sources and just kind of get a general sense of what to expect and draw some logical conclusions on my own. sometimes you find the specific info you're looking for spelled out. sometimes you kind of have to synthesize the info for yourself. i may not have specifically read that a 1 year old can only remember what you said for 2 minutes - i can't recall, but i do remember reading that the avg. 1 year old has an attention span of 2-5 minutes and then i couple that with them being in a tactile exploratory mode at that stage and i guess i just start to connect the dots so to speak?

hth, lori

[ha98ed14]

Thanks for all the really thoughful and thorough replies. You all never cease to come through for me with all my questions :)

JTs Mom, THANK YOU for the play-by-play of how to discipline in this gentle, but effectlve way. I so *NEED* that :) I want someone to write a book that says, "If DC does X, Y is the appropriate gentle, guiding response that will send the message firmly but without hurting DC." Lol, Good Luck, right?

Anyway, I have been checking out GCM. I had previously looked at it but kind of written it off as not for me because, although we are Christian, we are not evangelical. I read some of their threads and find some of it hard to swallow or hard to live up to (Who keeps house joyfully? I hate housework!). Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it. I am really fearful of putting myself out into a group who holds these as the ideals because I didn't/ can't live up to it. But you all say there are things to be learned from it, so I will reconsider. Do you post or just read certain sections? Maybe I will just read it, not join. That is an option.

Thanks again for all the resources and support.
Liz

[brittone2]

In terms of GCM, I hesitated years ago to go that site when I saw it recommended here. I'm definitely not evangelical. However, I think the Gentle Discipline board there rocks. You don't have to read the other stuff. Most people are coming from an AP perspective, but there are people there that didn't AP their kids or are there to stop spanking, yelling, etc. Just stick to reading the gentle discipline board if you think you might find it helpful (I love the stickies on the Comfort Corner vs. Time Outs, etc.)

I think the name is off-putting to people that don't identify with being an evangelical Christian. However, I think there is a LOT of valuable (and free!) information there and the ideas are based in a lot of books/parenting philosophies that lots of non Christian evangelicals use.

There are lots of explanations there about age-appropriate behavior and expectations. Lots of talk about setting kids up for success, which I love. Discussion about meeting your kids' needs when you see them starting to act out...are they hungry? tired? overstimulated? thirsty? I like the emphasis on teaching the *right* behavior and less emphasis and focus on punishing what was "wrong." I also like how people brainstorm about "what can I do in this situation" because it is real life...not from a book, kwim? It really helps me think outside of the box (I had so many lightbulb moments reading that site when DS was very young. Oh, he wants to throw. What about offering him things he *can* safely throw in the house? A box with throwing toys. Beanbags, cotton balls, a soft Gertie ball, etc. Hmmm....I can redirect the throwing of inappropriate objects and guide him toward throwing from the throwing box. Wow!). I'm just not that creative in the heat of the moment, but reading ideas on that site really makes me realize there are so many alternatives we can use to shape, guide, and teach the right behavior.

[ellies mom]

Anyway, I have been checking out GCM. I had previously looked at it but kind of written it off as not for me because, although we are Christian, we are not evangelical. I read some of their threads and find some of it hard to swallow or hard to live up to (Who keeps house joyfully? I hate housework!). Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it. I am really fearful of putting myself out into a group who holds these as the ideals because I didn't/ can't live up to it. But you all say there are things to be learned from it, so I will reconsider. Do you post or just read certain sections? Maybe I will just read it, not join. That is an option.

Thanks again for all the resources and support.
Liz
I'm not an evangelical Christian either so I agree that a lot of the board can be off putting but the Gentle Discipline Forum within the main board is an excellent resource. And like you found out, you don't have to join to read that forum.

And another thing I do want to point out. Attachment parenting is not about cloth diapers. BFing, co-sleeping, and baby wearing are methods to foster that attachment because it keeps the baby close by you but AP looks different in every relationship. It is about building bonds with your child and meeting their needs. You do not need to do any of those "things" to build those bonds, they just make it a bit easier.

[brittone2]

And another thing I do want to point out. Attachment parenting is not about cloth diapers. BFing, co-sleeping, and baby wearing are methods to foster that attachment because it keeps the baby close by you but AP looks different in every relationship.

ITA. I do most of the things usually associated w/ AP but I know lots of moms that respond to their children in an attached way without doing the supposed checklist that has become associated w/ AP. You can nurse, cloth diaper, and cosleep and not be a parent that responds in an APish fashion to your child. IMO it is about meeting your child's needs.

[cvanbrunt]

Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it.

I don't bf, cd, baby wear, or co sleep either. I also work full time. None of these things are better choices or worse choices or good choices or bad choices. They are my choices. It's tempting to look for validation of your choices, I know. But try not to. Guilt will get you nowhere. Someone will always tell you how wrong you are and someone will always tell you how right you are. You love your daughter and take care of her. That's all that's important. All the other stuff is detail. Attachment is the emotional bond that forms between an infant and the primary caregiver. A good, secure attachment can be achieved with all varieties of "details".

Please cut yourself some slack on the slap. You clearly know that isn't the style for you. You will develop what works over time.

[JTsMom]

JTs Mom, THANK YOU for the play-by-play of how to discipline in this gentle, but effectlve way. I so *NEED* that :) I want someone to write a book that says, "If DC does X, Y is the appropriate gentle, guiding response that will send the message firmly but without hurting DC." Lol, Good Luck, right?

If you find that book, please let me know. I'd give my right arm for it! It's easy when it's someone else's chld, and easier still when you've already been through that stage. IMO, it really helps to have other moms around who's parenting you admire- even if you only take bits and pieces of what they do. I've learned so much from this board, and from MDC, and there are certain posters who I watch for b/c I know if they are talking, I can probably learn something. And although they are harder to find, there are some books out there that will you give you some concrete things to try. The two that I've liked the best so far were Playful Parenting and Raising Your Spirited Child.


Anyway, I have been checking out GCM. I had previously looked at it but kind of written it off as not for me because, although we are Christian, we are not evangelical. I read some of their threads and find some of it hard to swallow or hard to live up to (Who keeps house joyfully? I hate housework!).

Yeah, there is no joyful housework here either. :ROTFLMAO: I just read the GD stuff and ignore the rest. A few days ago, I read a post on MDC that said something along the lines of "I was always stressing out about whether this or that was GD enough, but then I stopped worrying if it would pass the MDC sniff test, and did what worked for my family." That really spoke to me.

I started off somewhat mainstream, and have gotten pretty darn crunchy, but I didn't change overnight, and in the begining, I had a LOT of doubt- about all of these "things" that go along with it, and about my own ability to pull it off. Heck, I still do, depending on the day. Just do what you can, be proud you are doing SOMETHING and try to let the rest go. That part gets easier the more parenting years you have under your belt- at least that is what I've found in my limited experience. The glaring eyes of the other mothers are VERY hard to get past sometimes, but I just try to pretend like I'm the only one there. Half the time, whatever is going on with your child is 100 times a bigger deal to you than it is to anyone else anyway.



Plus, I don't bf, CD, baby wear, co sleep. It is not that I don't agree with it; I think it is probably the better choice, but for me, my PPD was really hard. I actually had feelings of resentment for DD for the first several months. I did NOT want to bf, wear a sling, or do extra loads of laundry full of doo doo. I feel bad about this, guilty that I could not be a better mom who was/ is attached and happy about it.


AP is definitely not a checklist. I didn't baby wear (although I will if I have another) b/c it didn't work for us-Ds hated the carriers I tried. I didn't CD- I thought it was nuts when DS was born. On the flip side- I didn't plan on co-sleeping, but when it was the only way for any of us to get sleep, I did it b/c that worked for us. You get the picture.

This stuff isn't an all or nothing cult, I promise. LOL I think you'll find a lot of us got to a crunchier/more AP/whatever you want to call it, way of doing things slowly, and the vast majority won't judge you based on any of that stuff.

I'm sure you've probably heard all of the "Don't go to LLL meetings, those women are crazy!" "Have you heard of MDC? Those women eat their own placentas!" "She's wearing a sling, she must be one of those mothers" comments, but IME, most of us are just normal moms who happen to think certain things are the best choices for our kids. You'd never pick most of us out of a crowd as an AP mom. Of course there are a few holier than thou types, but that's true of any group.

Liz, I'm sure you're a wonderful mother. I know it's easier said than done, but try to give yourself a break. Read a little, think about things, and try some new techniques and see how you feel.

[brittone2]

Carrie and Lori, those were two incredibly well written posts. So, so true.

[lizajane]

ITA. I do most of the things usually associated w/ AP but I know lots of moms that respond to their children in an attached way without doing the supposed checklist that has become associated w/ AP. You can nurse, cloth diaper, and cosleep and not be a parent that responds in an APish fashion to your child. IMO it is about meeting your child's needs.

this thread is just delightful. what a wonderful outpouring of sharing without judgement. i hope that those who do choose spanking do not take offense, as this thread does offer gentle discipline methods instead. i can't take offense because i agree! but i hope those who disagree do not...

as to brittone- yes! i DID breastfeed on demand for more than a year, cloth diaper, wear my kiddos in slings, mei tai, backpack, bjorn, fall asleep while nursing and attempt co-sleeping (no one slept!) BUT i am NOT an AP parent. because i believe (correct me if i am wrong) that AP is a child led parenting style and i choose a family led style. to me, that means the child is first 90% of the time. but there are times when a parent's needs must be met first, even if it frustrates the child. a slight variation, but one that works for us.

[m448]

Agree with most of the posts on this thread. I'm on GCM and yes I'm one of "those" moms. ;) I'm somewhat crunchy but am much more pragmatic and not willing to do something that doesn't fit with our family's values.

I also wanted to mention that AP is not child led, as one of the 'B's is balance, which makes it wholeheartedly family lead but I'm one that was APing without having heard of it and to this day haven't picked up a Sears book.

To the OP, wanted to give you a heads up too - I have a boisterous boy. In fact I have two but the first one really shook up my expectations as to how I would parent. You'll see soon enough that there is a marked difference in general between boys and girls even with the wide range of difference within one sex. Children go through age-expected behaviors. Yes that means the good AND the bad. So no matter how lovingly gentle you parent you will likely go through a (or several) mouthy stages. You'll go through a hitting phase, a biting phase, a pulling hair phase, a knock the sibling over when he reaches a 1 miles radius phase. And I'm just remembering what we've surpassed the last 5 years LOL. It's HOW you handle these behaviors that's the mark of an effective parent. You'll learn pretty soon to get over the pressure and embarrassment you feel around other parents who may cluck their tongues at how you parent otherwise you'll cave into many things you'll regret later on. Also, no matter what works for one family YOU and your child are individuals that were brought together for a purpose (to me that means God picked me as the mom for MY kids, imperfect and impatient as I may be).

I just remind myself that my goal is to raise a caring, responsible ADULT which takes quite a while and there will be bumps along that road along with many teaching moments. I figure I have a while to make sure my child gets it ingrained to give his brother space and respect.


In the meantime I have a perfectly normal 4.5 year old and almost 2.5 year old that are loving and can be rough. They do things they're not supposed to be are catching onto to making amends and apologizing. They empathize and somedays barrel through rooms like a herd of elephants. They are intelligent yet still growing in maturity.

[JTsMom]

Beth, thanks so much, that means a lot coming from you! :shy:


because i believe (correct me if i am wrong) that AP is a child led parenting style and i choose a family led style. to me, that means the child is first 90% of the time. but there are times when a parent's needs must be met first, even if it frustrates the child. a slight variation, but one that works for us.


If that's what it means, you can count me out too! I don't know of any family that can function if everyone's needs aren't addressed- at least they won't be functioning for long. Usually DS's needs come first. Sometimes DH's do, and sometimes mine do. If my needs aren't met (at least most of the time), I can't be a very good mom. I'm not the martyr type.

I don't know that there is any one set definition for AP- IMO, it's more a state of mind. I like a lot of the stuff on the askdrsears.com site (look under AP). I guess to me, it's just the idea that my bond with DS is very important, and I do certain things to preserve and strengthen that bond.

The things I do are the things that work for us. A lot of them are on those checklists that get talked about- some aren't. I also think it has a lot to do with responding to DS's needs and feelings with the sense that they are just as important as mine. Not more important overall, but as important. There are times his needs get priority- when he was an infant and needed fed a zillion times a day, for example- and times when mine come first- when I have just had all I can take, and I lock myself in the bedroom, leaving DS with DH, regardless of whether he'd rather have me there. The balance shifts back and forth though- it's not all about DS all the time.

[DrSally]

Lori,

Thanks for your post. EVERYTHING you said was super helpful, especially the part about it being ok that I have not totally figured it out. I feel less guilty. Thanks for giving me permission to be, um, human. I think we hold ourselves to the standard of "make no mistakes" because its our kids we are talking about, but in reality, that is not possible. Everything has a learning curve, evening being a mom & discipline. I *know* that in my head, but I still need the external validation that its ok to "be gentle with myself," as you said.

One question, WHERE do I find information about what is age approriate behavior and therefore appropriate correction/ discipline? For example, how did you know that at 1, they don't remember for more than 2 minutes? It may seem obvious to others, but I actually need to be explicitly told/ read it somewhere to have it stick.

Thanks for your supportive message; it meant a lot. :)

ITA with Lori's msg. to be gentle with ourselves as parents. The fact that you have put so much thought into why you discipline the way you did/do and for what reasons shows a lot of self-reflection. To me, that is one of the most important things in parenting, no matter what route you find works/feels best for you.

[m448]

also wanted to say that I don't view AP as a style of discipline. AP is a way of promoting attachment, specifically in the preschool & infant set. Positive Discipline or gentle discipline is what I see stemming from AP as a way of disciplining kids (in order to teach them how to interact with their world).

I think the problem people see when they see permissive parents who also happen to be AP is that people think they must respond to their older children with the same immediacy as they would a baby. They don't enforce age appropriate limits with a child who craves them because they are stuck in the "AP the baby" mode when the child has hit toddlerhood.

I see a lack of boundaries, limits and proactive teaching in parents who think if they JUST respond to the child's needs they're good to go. However, when a child enters toddlerhood suddenly their needs and wants are not one and the same. That's when the active part of discpline comes in. The facing of no impulse control with a parent who now has to use proactive teaching to make it through until the child matures out of a certain stage.

[Tracey]

[QUOTE=JTsMom]If you find that book, please let me know. I'd give my right arm for it! It's easy when it's someone else's chld, and easier still when you've already been through that stage. IMO, it really helps to have other moms around who's parenting you admire- even if you only take bits and pieces of what they do. I've learned so much from this board, and from MDC, and there are certain posters who I watch for b/c I know if they are talking, I can probably learn something. And although they are harder to find, there are some books out there that will you give you some concrete things to try. The two that I've liked the best so far were Playful Parenting and Raising Your Spirited Child.



Here's the book that does exactly that! Discipline for Life: Getting it Right with Children by Madelyn Swift. I've read several other gentle parenting books, including ones mentioned in this thread, but this one is in a whole different league. PLEASE buy it and save yourself a lot of self doubt and anguish. I am very into gentle discipling because I want the best outcome possible for my child, and by my way of thinking, this method is the winner. I was beaten, not just spanked, but beaten as a child. Let's just say that I was very motivated to find a better way of parenting.

[KBecks]

Oh boy. For me, I try to live in my own little parenting world and not make too many comparisons with how other moms are doing it. Not to say that I don't admire well behaved kids or notice out of control kids, but I try to be in tune with what my expectations and limits and preferences are, and if something works for me I don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of it. I'm in a playgroup with several moms I'm close to and we're all a little different in how we do things and I think that's really how it should be, parenting is individual.

I struggle with defining my parenting style, I'm pretty relaxed. I am kind of into gentle discipline, I do not hit/spank. I rarely, rarely yell. We do time outs sparingly. I was very laid back about potty training and it worked for me. I could describe myself as a lazy mom, but really, I stick to the things that are very important to me, such as being gentle with others. Otherwise my kids have a lot of freedom to do their own thing, and it works for me. It's not perfect but my kids are so far pretty wonderful, although not perfect. I'm happy with how it's going and I feel it's working and the kids are happy and loving, so it works.!!! :)

I think you need to find your own way and not worry about how other moms do it so much. If you don't want to slap your daughter's hand you don't have to in order to feel like a good mom. You know? There are no rules, seriously. I think you'll be happiest finding your own balance. It takes patience and experimentation. I also am big on trying to manage my expectations with where the kids are at developmentally, I guess that means I don't expect perfection, I expect them to have poor impulse control, etc., and I understand bad behavior is part of their experimentation as they learn.

I have visited gentlechristianmothers.com and I think you would enjoy it, just to see what's out there and possibly find ideas for things that might work for you. I have read a couple books on gentle discipline and I don't take everything, but I do get ideas and it's helped me develop my natural style.

[JTsMom]

Here's the book that does exactly that! Discipline for Life: Getting it Right with Children by Madelyn Swift. I've read several other gentle parenting books, including ones mentioned in this thread, but this one is in a whole different league. PLEASE buy it and save yourself a lot of self doubt and anguish. I am very into gentle discipling because I want the best outcome possible for my child, and by my way of thinking, this method is the winner. I was beaten, not just spanked, but beaten as a child. Let's just say that I was very motivated to find a better way of parenting.

Thanks! I'll be sure to check it out. I'm so sorry for what you experienced as a child. :hug:

[megs4413]

please forgive me, i haven't read all the responses yet.

but, i wanted to say that i have been through a similar situation. DH and I always assumed we would spank...we were of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality. then right around the time DD turned 1, we had an incident. (we had not spanked up to that point, because she'd never really done anything wrong! LOL). we had a friend over to play and the mom and i were friends. she was a spanking mom, but again, our kids were young so we hadn't really done the spanking yet, just planned on it, KWIM? so the kids are playing and then they start to argue over a toy. my DD PUSHES the little boy down. I am flabbergasted! I was so upset. I took her into the other room, turned her over and swatted her on the butt (diaper on, so i'm not sure it even registered). then she looked at me with a mix of shock/confusion and instead of crying, laughed. i guess she couldn't fathom that i woudl hurt her, so i must have been joking. i was RACKED with guilt! my poor baby trusted me so much not to hurt her that when I did hurt her, she gave me the benefit of the doubt and laughed it off as a joke gone wrong. i realized right then and there i could never stomach HURTING her physically as a form of discipline. after all, i want her to know that no matter what she does, i will love her and keep her safe from harm. we have been following gentle discipline techniques ever since then.

I don't think one way is right all the time for all kids, but i knew by my reaction to that incident that that way wasn't right for me and my DD. and the best thing of all, is that it's working! she's a GREAT kid and VERY epmathetic. of course she does the normal 3yo sassy stuff, but we're able to deal with it without me losing my cool and without betraying her trust.

let's just hope my DS is responsive to this approach. he's the troublemaker around here...lord help me if i can't figure out what will work with him.

[kijip]

please forgive me, i haven't read all the responses yet.

but, i wanted to say that i have been through a similar situation. DH and I always assumed we would spank...we were of the "spare the rod, spoil the child" mentality. then right around the time DD turned 1, we had an incident. (we had not spanked up to that point, because she'd never really done anything wrong! LOL). we had a friend over to play and the mom and i were friends. she was a spanking mom, but again, our kids were young so we hadn't really done the spanking yet, just planned on it, KWIM? so the kids are playing and then they start to argue over a toy. my DD PUSHES the little boy down. I am flabbergasted! I was so upset. I took her into the other room, turned her over and swatted her on the butt (diaper on, so i'm not sure it even registered). then she looked at me with a mix of shock/confusion and instead of crying, laughed. i guess she couldn't fathom that i woudl hurt her, so i must have been joking. i was RACKED with guilt! my poor baby trusted me so much not to hurt her that when I did hurt her, she gave me the benefit of the doubt and laughed it off as a joke gone wrong. i realized right then and there i could never stomach HURTING her physically as a form of discipline. after all, i want her to know that no matter what she does, i will love her and keep her safe from harm. we have been following gentle discipline techniques ever since then.

I don't think one way is right all the time for all kids, but i knew by my reaction to that incident that that way wasn't right for me and my DD. and the best thing of all, is that it's working! she's a GREAT kid and VERY epmathetic. of course she does the normal 3yo sassy stuff, but we're able to deal with it without me losing my cool and without betraying her trust.

let's just hope my DS is responsive to this approach. he's the troublemaker around here...lord help me if i can't figure out what will work with him.
I just wanted to say that I really appriciated your story here. It takes a strong person to change their mind about a parenting belief. I am glad you found a path that worked better for you and your daughter.

[niccig]

I would cut yourself some huge slack regarding your parenting. You say you feel guilty about not bf, baby wearing, cding etc. She is well fed, and diapers changed, don't stress over the method of that. You made a decision for you based on circumstances at the time. Don't beat yourself up now. There are so many things we have to do as parents, don't use your time or energy to feel guilty. I did bd, cf and baby wear, because they worked for me, it doesn't mean I love my son anymore than you love your DD. Your daughter needs YOUR love, that's the most important thing, as someone else said, the rest is details, and you have to do what works for your situation.

As for discipline, it's trial and error for what works for you and you child and your family. Your daughter is just getting to the age where you need to start with discipline. And you and DH have to work out what feels right to you. Like Megs, I spanked DS and I felt awful about it. I was raised being spanked and didn't think about other options. It does not work for me.

Three things that I keep in mind when I'm dealing with DS . 1. Discipline is a teaching moment not punishment. You have to work out what will best teach your child. 2. Children will cry. DS get's upset when I say no to something, and I don't let his crying stop me from enforcing boundaries 3. The calmer I am, the more effective the discipline and the quicker we move on to having fun again. My voice is getting better and I can raise my voice again, but I'm trying not to. Everything was much calmer when I couldn't talk much above a whisper.

I like what a PP wrote about "getting off your butt" parenting. I do know some people that sit on the sidelines saying no over and over again and their kids don't seem to listen. We do Magic 1-2-3. If DS doesn't change the behaviour, I will intervene and remove him from the situation or take away the object he's not being gentle with. He knows I will intervene, and many times I don't need to.

Find your own way with parenting and discipline, it just takes a little time.

[DrSally]

Megs, that was a very insightful reflection you ad on your experience. Babies/kids are so trusting, arent' they. Dr. Sears has a great article on how "spare the rod, spoil the child" is misinterpreted from the bible. He quotes numerous passages in which the "rod" in the bible connotes guidance rather than punishment (e.g. "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"), b/c the rod was what shephards carried while leading their flocks. Intesting, huh?

[DrSally]

Double post

[mommymy]

Thanks to all who have posted. I opened this thread in search of some encouragement and help on how to discipline. I find that it's hard to change from the discipline you experienced as a child...that is my hardest obstacle. I have two children oldest 3.5 years and I still have not found the right "technique", though have not really searched for answers till now. I need to change from punishing behaviors to positive disicipline You have all guided me in the right direction, and I'm grateful for your help. Thanks!