How should I respond? Help me be tactful.

[mamicka]

I'm not good at being tactful *at all*. So I need some help here. This might be long but I'll try to keep it simple.

2 weeks ago DS (10.5 months) was in the nursery at church & I was with him. Totally unprovoked, a boy (~2 years) grabs one of those popcorn push toys, lifts it over his head, & smashes it square onto DS's forehead. Then laughs. The other nursery worker immediately handled this boy while I tended to DS, who was miraculously fine. She also talked to this boy's parents after church about what happened. She told me (because I'll be the nursery coordinator starting next month) that she was concerned because the parents kind-of acted as if there was no big problem since my DS wasn't hurt.

I haven't done/said anything because I'm still so livid that this happened to my *baby* that I know I'd not say the right thing.

So today I get an email from this boy's mom apologizing (which I'm grateful for) for what happened but equating it to her 2 sons wrestling or a child having a temper tantrum. I have 3 boys. I understand wrestling & getting out of hand. We are also no strangers to temper tantrums. What happened 2 weeks ago isn't the same as either one of those things.

So, how do I respond with grace & tact but not saying "it's OK"?

[Davids-Coco]

I would respond and say that as a parent, you wanted to thank her for apologizing. But as the new nursery coordinator, you have to let her know that this type of behavior will not be acceptable and that the children are expected not to repeatedly hurt other children or else they will be asked to leave/not allowed in nursery/whatever the penalty is. I would also gently say something like... "Having three boys of my own, I understand temper tantrums and wrestling happen. However, the episode last week was clearly an act of aggression that we can not allow to happen repeatedly in nursery."

I guess what I am saying is, when all else fails, blame it on the position you are taking in nursery while getting your point across as a mother.

[bubbaray]

I would respond and say that as a parent, you wanted to thank her for apologizing. But as the new nursery coordinator, you have to let her know that this type of behavior will not be acceptable and that the children are expected not to repeatedly hurt other children or else they will be asked to leave/not allowed in nursery/whatever the penalty is. I would also gently say something like... "Having three boys of my own, I understand temper tantrums and wrestling happen. However, the episode last week was clearly an act of aggression that we can not allow to happen repeatedly in nursery."


Oooh, so much better than my attempt, which I didn't post.

I really like this answer!

[maestramommy]

Oooh, so much better than my attempt, which I didn't post.

I really like this answer!

ITA! That was wonderfully said!

[Davids-Coco]

wow, thanks... lol. Usually I get ripped apart on here ;)

[KBecks]

I'm sorry that DS#3 was hit by another child.

I think that impulsive behavior is part of being a 2 year old and that it's not really possible for the parents who weren't there to be able to do anything to prevent this from happening again. I frankly would write it off as one of those things that unfortunately happens between kids now and then. We try to prevent it but it doesn't always work out.

Unless the 2 year old is habitually aggressive, I don't think there's much to say to the parents. I would be happy to have the apology and let it go.

In terms of being the nursery coordinator, I think you need to find out or figure out what the discipline procedures are and then go from there.

[deannanb]

I like that response too...

I might also add a religious quote since it is a church nursery -

[maestramommy]

I think that impulsive behavior is part of being a 2 year old and that it's not really possible for the parents who weren't there to be able to do anything to prevent this from happening again. I frankly would write it off as one of those things that unfortunately happens between kids now and then. We try to prevent it but it doesn't always work out.


In terms of being the nursery coordinator, I think you need to find out or figure out what the discipline procedures are and then go from there.
That may be true, however it doesn't change the fact that what happened could have been really dangerous, and it's better to put the parents on notice early than to try and deal with an awful incident after it happens. Besides, her ds is not another 2 yo, he's an infant, so I disagree that it's just something that happens between kids.

However, I do agree that you need to find out what the procedures are at your church. And if there aren't any, then the committee that is in charge of the nursery needs to come up with some.

Good luck, this sounds like a tough situation. Let us know how it works out.

[s7714]

Is there a history of such things happening with this family/child? If not, I wouldn't say anything more than a simple thank you. If there's history, then probably more should be said BUT either way IMO you should address this as a personal issue first and then later, if needed, address it as the new nursery coordinator.

I guess if I were in the other person's shoes and my simple attempt at apologizing to a fellow mom was met with an automatic "I'm the new nursery coordinator and this is the way it's gonna be" response, I'd be offended and unsettled because I was addressing you as a fellow mom and not as the future nursery coordinator. Does that make any sense? I completely understand being livid about the situation (I would be), and wanting to make sure the family is aware that behavior is not acceptable, but IMO it's important to separate personal issues from management issues when you're in a position such as nursery coordinator. You don't want them to feel like "she had it in for us from the beginning because of that time..." iykwim.

[HannaAddict]

A simple thank you. I would be livid if I got a reply "warning" me or "putting me on notice" about my two year old child after I apologized for my two year old's moment of bad behavior. Children do things impulsively, sometimes things that hurt or could hurt other children. It doesn't make them mean or deserving of adults attributing adult behaviors in a negative way (aggression, laughing as if to be mean) or motives to them. I totally understand being upset as a mother and the mama bear instinct. But I would try to be gracious and accept their apology. It sounds like the parents did the right thing by contacting you and apologizing. (From your original post it doesn't sound like this is a repeat problem.)

In your official capacity as nursery director, I would consider how the nursery is run and if there are any changes you can make to keep all the little ones safe. Can you separate the older walking/toddling/sometimes hitting children from the pre-walkers (ie helpless!) or barely walking babies? There is a big different (as you know) between two year olds who can pick up toys and babies who are barely standing or walking. Does the nursery have a discipline policy that parents know ahead of time and so on (for children who are having repeated issues). You might already have these sorts of things covered, but it is always worth revisiting.

I'm sorry your little one had this happen but glad he's okay. Hope things are less eventful in the nursery.

[JBaxter]

Glad your little guy was ok :) I agree a simple thank you will be enough. Our church nursery separates walkers & non walkers but a gate. Its the same room but is divided. Are there rules for behavior already posted?


FYI I had real issues with Nathans behavior being very agressive ( unprovoked) and found he had food dye issues. Anything with yellow or red food dyes creats a wildly agressive hyperactive unattentive child still.

[Ceepa]

Let it go. The mother was thoughtful to send an apology and being the nursery worker you will have plenty of opportunities to interact with this family and note if this child shows regular "aggression".

[mamicka]

I would respond and say that as a parent, you wanted to thank her for apologizing. But as the new nursery coordinator, you have to let her know that this type of behavior will not be acceptable and that the children are expected not to repeatedly hurt other children or else they will be asked to leave/not allowed in nursery/whatever the penalty is. I would also gently say something like... "Having three boys of my own, I understand temper tantrums and wrestling happen. However, the episode last week was clearly an act of aggression that we can not allow to happen repeatedly in nursery."

I guess what I am saying is, when all else fails, blame it on the position you are taking in nursery while getting your point across as a mother.

I like this response but I'm afraid it will hurt me in the long run. It is a really small church & I don't know any of the other nursery parents really well.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

[mamicka]

Thanks, Karen.

I agree that impulsive behavior is normal but I'm with Melinda in that this is not "between kids" when it's 2yo vs not-walking 10 month-old.

Habitually agressive? Not that I've seen. But both he & his older brother often throw toys & "don't play nicely with others". I'm in the nursery at least 2x/month.

That's, in part, why I've agreed to become the nursery coordinator. There aren't any rules or procedures for anything. Lots of other issues as well.

Thanks for your input, Karen & Melinda. :)

[mamicka]

Is there a history of such things happening with this family/child? If not, I wouldn't say anything more than a simple thank you. If there's history, then probably more should be said BUT either way IMO you should address this as a personal issue first and then later, if needed, address it as the new nursery coordinator.

I guess if I were in the other person's shoes and my simple attempt at apologizing to a fellow mom was met with an automatic "I'm the new nursery coordinator and this is the way it's gonna be" response, I'd be offended and unsettled because I was addressing you as a fellow mom and not as the future nursery coordinator. Does that make any sense? I completely understand being livid about the situation (I would be), and wanting to make sure the family is aware that behavior is not acceptable, but IMO it's important to separate personal issues from management issues when you're in a position such as nursery coordinator. You don't want them to feel like "she had it in for us from the beginning because of that time..." iykwim.

Jen, I agree with what you've said here. Thanks for articulating it for me. I have decided that I really do need to keep the personal from the professional & just respond with a thank-you.

Thanks!

[mamicka]

A simple thank you. I would be livid if I got a reply "warning" me or "putting me on notice" about my two year old child after I apologized for my two year old's moment of bad behavior. Children do things impulsively, sometimes things that hurt or could hurt other children. It doesn't make them mean or deserving of adults attributing adult behaviors in a negative way (aggression, laughing as if to be mean) or motives to them. I totally understand being upset as a mother and the mama bear instinct. But I would try to be gracious and accept their apology. It sounds like the parents did the right thing by contacting you and apologizing. (From your original post it doesn't sound like this is a repeat problem.)

In your official capacity as nursery director, I would consider how the nursery is run and if there are any changes you can make to keep all the little ones safe. Can you separate the older walking/toddling/sometimes hitting children from the pre-walkers (ie helpless!) or barely walking babies? There is a big different (as you know) between two year olds who can pick up toys and babies who are barely standing or walking. Does the nursery have a discipline policy that parents know ahead of time and so on (for children who are having repeated issues). You might already have these sorts of things covered, but it is always worth revisiting.

I'm sorry your little one had this happen but glad he's okay. Hope things are less eventful in the nursery.

Thanks for your response, HannaAddict. However, I do think that 2yo can be mean, can be aggressive, laugh when other children are hurt. I don't think that it means anything about that child except that someone needs to teach them that those are not appropriate ways to behave & to begin to teach them empathy. A 2yo having aggression toward an infant can be normal, but it cannot be allowed. I guess that's where I draw the line. Lest you think I have perfect children who don't ever do mean things, I'll tell you that my 3yo can't be trusted for 1 second alone with his little brother. He would kill him, literally. But they love each other dearly & my 3yo is normal, & improving. Thankfully, my 3yo is only this way with his brother, & not any other children. Before I knew that other children were safe in his presence, I never left him in the nursery. I always stayed with him. I wouldn't have been fair to expose the other children to his aggression, no matter how normal it was.

Yes, there are a lot of issues in the nursery that need to be worked out. That's why I'm going to be doing it. If you want something done right... ;)

[mamicka]

Glad your little guy was ok :) I agree a simple thank you will be enough. Our church nursery separates walkers & non walkers but a gate. Its the same room but is divided. Are there rules for behavior already posted?


FYI I had real issues with Nathans behavior being very agressive ( unprovoked) and found he had food dye issues. Anything with yellow or red food dyes creats a wildly agressive hyperactive unattentive child still.

Thanks, Jeana. Space is going to be an issue, but I agree that separating walkers & non-walkers is important. No rules posted yet, but they will be.

You're right about the food dyes - there are many possible reasons why this child is being aggressive. I how we'll be able to figure it out. He has many moments of angelic behavior as well.

[mamicka]

Let it go. The mother was thoughtful to send an apology and being the nursery worker you will have plenty of opportunities to interact with this family and note if this child shows regular "aggression".

Thanks, Ceepa. You're right. :)

[o_mom]

Thanks for your response, HannaAddict. However, I do think that 2yo can be mean, can be aggressive, laugh when other children are hurt. I don't think that it means anything about that child except that someone needs to teach them that those are not appropriate ways to behave & to begin to teach them empathy. A 2yo having aggression toward an infant can be normal, but it cannot be allowed. I guess that's where I draw the line. Lest you think I have perfect children who don't ever do mean things, I'll tell you that my 3yo can't be trusted for 1 second alone with his little brother. He would kill him, literally. But they love each other dearly & my 3yo is normal, & improving. Thankfully, my 3yo is only this way with his brother, & not any other children. Before I knew that other children were safe in his presence, I never left him in the nursery. I always stayed with him. I wouldn't have been fair to expose the other children to his aggression, no matter how normal it was.

Yes, there are a lot of issues in the nursery that need to be worked out. That's why I'm going to be doing it. If you want something done right... ;)

I agree completely that it is not something that can be allowed. I think the issue here is that by the time the parents pick up the child - 20, 30, 60 min later - the time for teaching and discipline is well past. For a 2 yo, anything beyond 5-10 min after is not going to be effective. The nursery workers need to handle the discipline right then.

I think that what the mother (and others) is saying, is that these things happen. Not that they are OK, allowed or something that should be allowed repeatedly. Just like temper tantrums and sibling fighting - not OK, but it cannot always be prevented. Two year olds cannot control every impluse. Some are more prone to hitting and aggression than others, but not always predictible.

You know all these things, but it seems that you are holding this child/these parents to a higher standard. What do you expect them to do?

I think you need to really think about the purpose of the nursery and the rules around it. If the nursery is just for kids who can can control every impulse, then it would be empty. Also, expecting parents to stay because their child might be aggressive kind of defeats the purpose of the nursery.

[SAHMIL]

I agree completely that it is not something that can be allowed. I think the issue here is that by the time the parents pick up the child - 20, 30, 60 min later - the time for teaching and discipline is well past. For a 2 yo, anything beyond 5-10 min after is not going to be effective. The nursery workers need to handle the discipline right then.

I think that what the mother (and others) is saying, is that these things happen. Not that they are OK, allowed or something that should be allowed repeatedly. Just like temper tantrums and sibling fighting - not OK, but it cannot always be prevented. Two year olds cannot control every impluse. Some are more prone to hitting and aggression than others, but not always predictible.

I was recently at a bday party for a 2 year old where my DS was the youngest one there (having just turned a year at the time). The bday boy hit my son on the head with his hands causing him to cry. My friend put her son in time out, but I said it's ok. I asked my mom what to do for the next time and she said to be proactive, when it looks like the kid is getting ready to hit, move my DS.

You know all these things, but it seems that you are holding this child/these parents to a higher standard. What do you expect them to do?

In a way, I'm going to agree with this statement. The parents weren't there and a 2 year old doesn't really know any better on some things.

I think you need to really think about the purpose of the nursery and the rules around it. If the nursery is just for kids who can can control every impulse, then it would be empty. Also, expecting parents to stay because their child might be aggressive kind of defeats the purpose of the nursery.

Out of curiosity, does your church have parents rotate supervision in the nursery? That might be a good thing to do.

[lizajane]

"I appreciate your note. Thanks for contacting me."

[lisams]

I'm sorry that DS#3 was hit by another child.

I think that impulsive behavior is part of being a 2 year old and that it's not really possible for the parents who weren't there to be able to do anything to prevent this from happening again. I frankly would write it off as one of those things that unfortunately happens between kids now and then. We try to prevent it but it doesn't always work out.

Unless the 2 year old is habitually aggressive, I don't think there's much to say to the parents. I would be happy to have the apology and let it go.

In terms of being the nursery coordinator, I think you need to find out or figure out what the discipline procedures are and then go from there.

I totally agree. If the child was aggressive often, or this was a repeat offense I would have more concerns (which I would address with the director, not the parent). I think it was nice the parent apologized, and I'd simply say that you for the apology. Really if anyone should be talking with the parents about the incident it should be the teachers that were in charge when it happened.

Believe me, I know how it feels. My 15 month old has been knocked down by toddlers and it does make my heart heavy. I've found that those two age groups really don't mix well unless an adult is right there, and I mean physically right next to them. Toddlers are so unpredicatable and older babies don't have the verbal communication to say "No!" so it makes them an easy "target".

[DrSally]

I agree it's not the same. Ds was at the library and an older boy took a wooden box and lifted it above his head with a menacing look intending to smash DS's head with it. I think his mom must've known she really has to watch him, b/c she intervened right away. I was too shocked to move as quickly as I should've (DS was oblivious). This sounds similar to your situation, and I see it as a purposeful attack, rather than roughhousing (although it's hard to know wo/being there). I'll be interested to see what others say on how to respond, but close supervision is prob best.

ETA: I agree on the need to get some guidelines in place for habitually aggressive kids in the nursery.

[traciann]

I would respond exactly as lizajane posted. I really don't think there is a reason to say more than that. I hate to see my kid hurt, but stuff like this does happen, and it could have easily been my child on the other end of things.

[mamicka]

I totally agree. If the child was aggressive often, or this was a repeat offense I would have more concerns (which I would address with the director, not the parent). I think it was nice the parent apologized, and I'd simply say that you for the apology. Really if anyone should be talking with the parents about the incident it should be the teachers that were in charge when it happened.

Believe me, I know how it feels. My 15 month old has been knocked down by toddlers and it does make my heart heavy. I've found that those two age groups really don't mix well unless an adult is right there, and I mean physically right next to them. Toddlers are so unpredicatable and older babies don't have the verbal communication to say "No!" so it makes them an easy "target".

Thanks for your response, Lisa. I was one of the nursery workers when this happened & I was actually 2 feet away from my child when it happened. I just happened to be reaching for something in the opposite direction at the time & couldn't react fast enough to stop it.

I hear lots of responses comparing this to being knocked-down & minimizing it somehow. I guess I just put this in a different category. It was a very intentional act of causing serious harm & isn't the same, in my opinion.

[brittone2]

I totally agree. If the child was aggressive often, or this was a repeat offense I would have more concerns (which I would address with the director, not the parent). I think it was nice the parent apologized, and I'd simply say that you for the apology. Really if anyone should be talking with the parents about the incident it should be the teachers that were in charge when it happened.

Believe me, I know how it feels. My 15 month old has been knocked down by toddlers and it does make my heart heavy. I've found that those two age groups really don't mix well unless an adult is right there, and I mean physically right next to them. Toddlers are so unpredicatable and older babies don't have the verbal communication to say "No!" so it makes them an easy "target".


Agreeing with the above. Unless this child was a repeat offender, I would just say thanks and leave it at that. I personally do not believe a 2 year old can have a whole lot of malice/evil intent in their actions.

I'm not saying I'd feel great about what happened, but I also don't think I'd go out of my way to say much after a one-time incident.

DS was always super gentle compared to many other 2 year olds, but that was just his personality. He got knocked down, run over, etc. but that's part of what happens with 2 year olds. When 2 year olds are around even younger kids, there needs to be really close supervision, IMO. It is the adult's job to keep everyone as safe as possible. 2 year olds only have so much impulse control and safety awareness, no matter how "well behaved" or not they are, kwim?

[o_mom]

It was a very intentional act of causing serious harm & isn't the same, in my opinion.

A two year old does not have the mental ability to comprehend serious harm. Ascribing this intention to a toddler is not reasonable, IMO.

[maestramommy]

I hear lots of responses comparing this to being knocked-down & minimizing it somehow. I guess I just put this in a different category. It was a very intentional act of causing serious harm & isn't the same, in my opinion.
I have read through this thread a couple of times now, and it seems that some of the responders have missed that the OP said that this little boy shown a pattern of throwing toys and "not playing nice". In addition, although a 2 yo might not intend to cause serious harm, they do intend to deliberately hit another person, either with their hands or another object. It is that behavior that must be restrained IN ORDER to prevent serious harm. Also, we are talking about a 2 yo and a baby. Not two 2yos. And the hit was intentional, not accidental, as does happen when kids are playing. I am not in any way suggesting that the kid is a "bad kid," only that he needs to be watched more carefully, and that the parents should be made aware of bigger incidents like the one that happened.

The other thing that strikes me while reading this is that the other helper was concerned because the parents seemed UNconcerned since there were no injuries. So it would only be not okay if the baby ended up sustaining a cut or goose egg on his forehead?

Mamika, our nursery is also small (our church is small!) so we do have toddlers with babys in the same space as well, but If we had the space and the hands, of course separation between toddlers and babies would be preferable. If you feel uncomfy about addressing the parent about their kid's behavior, I guess I would enlist the help of your helpers in keeping a closer eye on the kid when he is there.

[ThreeofUs]

You know, it's not very nice and I don't recommend this course of action, but the mom didn't contact you for 2 weeks?!

I think I'd want to add "How surprising to hear from you."

But, you know, I would really work with the nursery folk to keep this child contained, and away from babies.

[lisams]

Thanks for your response, Lisa. I was one of the nursery workers when this happened & I was actually 2 feet away from my child when it happened. I just happened to be reaching for something in the opposite direction at the time & couldn't react fast enough to stop it.

I hear lots of responses comparing this to being knocked-down & minimizing it somehow. I guess I just put this in a different category. It was a very intentional act of causing serious harm & isn't the same, in my opinion.

I'm not trying to minimize what happened to your little one - DS has been knocked down with full force pushing where he fell backwards and knocked his head on the hard flooring. I do think it is serious just as the incident that happened with your child. I really didn't mean for you to think that what happened to your DS wasn't a big deal - I know I would have been upset by it as well.

[KBecks]

I hear lots of responses comparing this to being knocked-down & minimizing it somehow. I guess I just put this in a different category. It was a very intentional act of causing serious harm & isn't the same, in my opinion.

It's tough because of course it's serious, your baby could have been hurt, and an aggressive action is a real concern.

The thing I'm having difficulty with is that I don't think there's that much that can be done about it. The parents were informed of the behavior, and they have apologized. I'm not sure what else can be done at this point that would make a difference. And, this was two weeks ago, so in my perspective, it's over and time to move on.

I think the best suggestion is to separate the older and younger kids in the nursery -- that sounds like the best preventative advice.

I'm very glad S is OK.

My latest problem is that John hurt himself worse than any kid could have beaten him up. He has a black eye and a head wound and we were at Children's hospital until 11 p.m. last night. Maybe I'll get around to sharing that story, but I think I need a nap.

[mamicka]

I agree with you, Karen. I'm not sure I really expect to do anything about it now, I'm just frustrated about it all. Ya know?

I'm sorry about John. I hope he feels better soon, I bet that was scary. Many hugs. :hug5:

[mamicka]

No, but the act was very interntional. Whether or not the 2yo understands serious harm, is irrelevant. Some 2yo are most certainly capable of understanding harm to another child & I believe, from being with this child as often as I have, this child does.

[mamicka]

You know all these things, but it seems that you are holding this child/these parents to a higher standard. What do you expect them to do?

I think you need to really think about the purpose of the nursery and the rules around it. If the nursery is just for kids who can can control every impulse, then it would be empty. Also, expecting parents to stay because their child might be aggressive kind of defeats the purpose of the nursery.

O_mom, I'm not being snarky here, at all. I really appreciate your point of view, so I'm asking for clarification. I don't want to be unfair at all, but I don't see where I'm holding these parents to a higher standard. Can you explain?

I guess what I expect from other nursery parents, is to not treat the nursery like a daycare. At some churches that's what it might be, at ours (nor any other church I've personally attended) it is just not. We are staffed by volunteers (parents of nursery children are included) at the church, anywhere between 18 & 75 years old. Different combinations of people each week. They volunteer solely so that the parents can enjoy the service & worship in peace. The service is also broadcast in the nursery so that they can follow along as much as possible. No matter what kind of instruction they receive, to expect the them to handle children who have shown aggression toward the other children well enough to make a difference, is unreasonable, IMO. To me, this is an example of GOYB parenting needed. If your child is going through a phase of aggression or some other serious inappropriate behavior, maybe you as a parent don't get to leave him/her in the nursery, but should instead stay to teach him how to behave appropriately there. That's the same standard to which I hold myself.

[mamicka]

Yup - 2 weeks. :(

Thanks, Ivy.

[JBaxter]

No, but the act was very interntional. Whether or not the 2yo understands serious harm, is irrelevant. Some 2yo are most certainly capable of understanding harm to another child & I believe, from being with this child as often as I have, this child does.


He is ONLY 2 impulse control is VERY difficult at that age for many many children. 2 yr olds do hit bite pull hair etc. It is a form of their communication and as parents and caregivers we help them develop better skills. Every 2 yr old is different and goes through different phases.

[mamicka]

OK - I'm trying to step back & look at what is truly the issue here for me... because I have a different opinion on certain things than many others here, which is fine, IMO. It's just not worth debating, because everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Whether or not you believe that the 2yo is able to control him/herself or to what degree, whose responsibility is it to make sure this behavior doesn't happen again? IMO that responsibility is the parents.

It just seems to me that to apologize for your child's bad behavior (normal though it may be) & then follow it up with a "kids will be kids" attitude indicates to me that its not being taken seriously enough. I'm guessing that this child will be in the nursery again next week, without their parent. So it's then up to me to stay with my child to make sure he isn't, again, at the receiving end of this behavior. I do it happily, but I shouldn't have to. The other parent should be just as vigilant about watching their own child as I am about watching mine. That's where I have the issue.

[KBecks]

O_mom, I'm not being snarky here, at all. I really appreciate your point of view, so I'm asking for clarification. I don't want to be unfair at all, but I don't see where I'm holding these parents to a higher standard. Can you explain?

I guess what I expect from other nursery parents, is to not treat the nursery like a daycare. At some churches that's what it might be, at ours (nor any other church I've personally attended) it is just not. We are staffed by volunteers (parents of nursery children are included) at the church, anywhere between 18 & 75 years old. Different combinations of people each week. They volunteer solely so that the parents can enjoy the service & worship in peace. The service is also broadcast in the nursery so that they can follow along as much as possible. No matter what kind of instruction they receive, to expect the them to handle children who have shown aggression toward the other children well enough to make a difference, is unreasonable, IMO. To me, this is an example of GOYB parenting needed. If your child is going through a phase of aggression or some other serious inappropriate behavior, maybe you as a parent don't get to leave him/her in the nursery, but should instead stay to teach him how to behave appropriately there. That's the same standard to which I hold myself.

Allison, I hope to be helpful here.

I think you should check into what the mission of the nursery at your church is. And, I think your personal expectations may or may not line up with that, and so it would be good to check.

Since I've known you IRL a little while, I have the impression of you as a very organized and very involved parent. I'm really impressed with how you handle your kids and your home based on the brief chats we've had. When I hear you talk about some of the things you do, I'm like, my gosh, why didn't I think of that? You put a lot of effort and thought into it, which is great. I think you will be awesome for helping the church nursery.

I'll just contrast our family as an example. I'm a very relaxed, I would even say lazy parent. (I am not telling what the kids had for breakfast this morning.) I'm not nearly as organized and I very much go with the flow from day to day and make it up as we go along. It's been working for us, although I clearly see when I observe other moms in playgroup and playdates that we all have different ways of dealing with kids and situations.

OK, where was I going with that? If my child were the 2 year old that struck your child with a toy, I might have reacted in the very same way. I would be concerned about if your child were hurt, and hearing that S was OK, I might have gone on my merry way without thinking too much about it. I recall a time where Alek was almost 2 and pushed a girl at playgroup and she fell and got a bump. I think there was a clear difference of expectations because I took Alek aside and said please don't push, and the girl's mom attended to her daughter and probably thought I didn't do nearly enough to handle Alek. But seriously, I looked at the incident as mostly an accident and Alek experimenting and learning where the boundaries are. I'm also a person who does not react big to a lot of things because I don't want to over emphasize or give too much attention to negative behavior.

OK, too much about me and Alek. I suspect the other parents didn't know what to do since they weren't in the nursery and therefore didn't have any real ability to address it. I remember what I thought was a really good point by someone who said that in a school classroom, the teacher is responsible for discipline and setting boundaries because s/he is in charge, and the parents arent' there. The parents can work on good behavior at home, but in the classroom it's up to the teacher. I agree with that. I don't see this as get off your butt parenting because the parents weren't there, and they weren't supposed to be there.

I think what may have happened is that the mom found out later that you were upset about what happened and that's the reason for the delay.

I think the mission of a church nursery is to provide child care so that the parents can attend church and receive the Word of God without distraction. To me, it is kind of like a day care, but it's a brief maybe 1 hour thing. I think that as you lead the nursery, it would be good to establish under what circumstances parents may be asked to remove their child or take a break from using the nursery. I don't think a one strike rule is reasonable. If a child had two aggressive incidents, and I'm not talking about a little push, but aggressive behavior as you have described in this case, I think it would be reasonable to ask the parents to take a few weeks off and work with their child on gentleness and empathy. I also think you are great at giving specific examples and ideas when parents may not know what to do or try. ETA: I think a possible great request after one aggressive incident would be to request that a parent stay in the nursery to help and observe the following week, and then everyone can see how it goes. It should be pretty easy for everyont to tell based on the next week's behavior if he child is going through a rough phase of if it was a one time isolated thing.

We do church nursery at two parishes and we do gym child care. The gym child care is more formal about filling out an incident report if someone is hurt. We've thankfully never heard a report of aggressive behavior. One church nursery is rotating volunteers and the other is a staff member who is there every week + a paid teen babysitter. The ratios for church have been pretty small.

Alek was asked to take a break from storytime after we struggled with him being kind of disruptive for a couple weeks. It was hard to hear but it was helpful, now we don't do storytime anymore and we have chosen other activities that are a better fit for him.

In the case of church nursery, it's important to make parents and kids feel welcomed while maintaining a safe environment. I'm sure you'll be great at working out solutions and improvements that help the church achieve it's goals. It's great that you're helping out.

[mamicka]

Karen, I appreciate your comments & I'll be thinking about them a lot. Thanks for your kind words. :) There are a lot of aspects to your parenting style that I really envy.

[o_mom]

O_mom, I'm not being snarky here, at all. I really appreciate your point of view, so I'm asking for clarification. I don't want to be unfair at all, but I don't see where I'm holding these parents to a higher standard. Can you explain?



I'm sorry if it sounded snarky - reading back it was a bit terse. I guess my point is that if you know 2 yo have low impulse control, that they can without warning do something that could hurt another child and that discipline 30-60 min later would be ineffective, what would you expect the parents to do?

If the nursery is attended, then the attendents are in charge of the child. They are in charge of making sure all the kids are safe. Sometimes things will happen that are unexpected and unavoidable, but that is not the fault of the parents who are not even there. If it is a pattern (not the normal 2yo sharing problems, but serious aggression), then yes, the parents should stay or keep the child in the service. If the child doesn't "play nice" or share well, that is completely different than the parents knowing that he frequently hits or bites, etc. I agree with KBecks that most likely it was not conveyed to the parents how serious it was and they heard later that you were so upset.

[o_mom]

No, but the act was very interntional. Whether or not the 2yo understands serious harm, is irrelevant. Some 2yo are most certainly capable of understanding harm to another child & I believe, from being with this child as often as I have, this child does.

If he cannot understand serious harm, then he cannot form the intention to cause serious harm. Yes, he meant to pick up a toy and hit another child, but that does not equate that he was attacking your child with the intent to seriously harm him. If a 2 yo had that ability, then we would not have different laws for minors.

[o_mom]

Whether or not you believe that the 2yo is able to control him/herself or to what degree, whose responsibility is it to make sure this behavior doesn't happen again? IMO that responsibility is the parents.


If the church offers an attended nursery, then the attendents are responsible for the child while they are there. To say any different would mean that nobody could leave their child there. Do you say when people drop off kids "You can leave them, but we aren't responsible."?

The nursery has the right to exclude kids who repeatedly cause problems, but that is different.

[Piglet]

Yes, that. It is the nursery's responsibility to keep the kids safe and secure. If that means that certain ages are not included or that they only allow 5 kids in at a time, the impotrant thing is keeping an eye on the kids. Any infraction during nursery time is to be dealt with AT THE TIME by the nursery. If anything, the mom is now going beyond the call of duty and apoligizing for the kid's actions. There is no punishment or discipline that would be effective on a 2 year old that long after the incident occured. The mom can warn her kid that any FUTURE incidents will not be acceptable and that she expects better behaviour, but that can only happen as she is dropping him off. It is the nursery's responsibility at the time of the incident. You can be upset, but you will need to focus your energy on making positive changes to the nursery environment, not waste your energy on correcting the mother's attitude. Try to get a baby area organized, work on limiting the child-staff ratios, etc. Make sure the toys are age appropriate. An ounce of prevention...

[KBecks]

Karen, I appreciate your comments & I'll be thinking about them a lot. Thanks for your kind words. :) There are a lot of aspects to your parenting style that I really envy.

:hysterical: Honey, you have never seen the inside of my house!!! :hysterical: Someday I'll show you.

Have a great weekend!

[bubbaray]

IMO, it really depends on the child re the impulse control. If a child is closer to 3 than 2 (but still technically a 2yo) and more mature, IMO, they can have quite a bit of impulse control. I see this at my DDs daycare. I also see this at our church nursery. Which, BTW, is divided by age 0-18m in the baby room, 19m-35m in 2yo room (used to be 24m to 35m), 3's, 4s, etc.. Children move up in September after the appropriate birthday, so there can be quite an age range. And, there are still problems. For example, when DD#1 was in the 2yo room (back when it was 24m and up), there was a little boy with Downs who was 1 yr older (3 going on 4) than he should have been in that room, but he supposedly had a "monitor" with him at all times (a 10-11yr old child). He was very very aggressive and hurt some of the other children. When DH was helping in the room one day (not as the boy's monitor), the boy picked up a preschool chair (the kind that are also used in schools, plastic seat with metal legs) and threw it at DD#1. As it happened, DH's leg was in the way and it struck DH instead of DD#1. DH said the boy threw it with far more force than he would have ever expected of a child and it hurt a lot when the chair hit him (my DH is a big guy with a huge pain tolerance), and he had a bruise after. I shudder to think what could have happened if the chair had hit a child.

We raised it with the director of the room (the pastor's wife) and nothing was done. We spoke to a couple of other parents and they said "well, the parents of that boy need a break". Yeah, whatever. Then they should leave him with a sitter or other responsible adult. Because a 10yr "monitor" was clearly not able to handle this child (and, IMO, shouldn't have been expected to be able to handle him). I'm not sure what happened, I don't see him in the 3yo room this year. Maybe they moved him into his age room (he should be in the 4yo room now, moving into the 5s in Sept).

Anyway, my point is even with separating children by ages, there are going to be issues that need to be dealt with. I didn't think that our church dealt appropriate with this boy (it wasn't just this one incident, there were many that DH and I witnessed) and frankly, it was a serious injury just waiting to happen. Our church welcomes all children, regardless of ongoing problems or issues. I'm not sure that is the best approach. Its one of the reasons that one of us stayed in the 2yo room with DD#1 pretty much the whole year.

I don't know how to make it better, though. In this case, the boy was not able to stay in the service (he was very loud and disruptive). But, the parents probably did need a break (spiritual or otherwise).

[mamicka]

Thanks for clarifying - I guess I need to say that I'm not upset at the parents that this has happened, I just would like more effort to make sure it doesn't happen again - I haven't seen that yet.

Not that it changes anything, I just want to clarify - The parents were told about the incident right after church the same day. Both by the other nursery worker that witnessed it & again had a phone call from the chair of the CE board. I didn't speak to anyone about it (& haven't since) until the chair of the CE board called me to make sure that Samson was OK. I haven't really conveyed my feelings about it at all, to anyone involved, because I don't want to say the wrong thing.

[lisams]

Whether or not you believe that the 2yo is able to control him/herself or to what degree, whose responsibility is it to make sure this behavior doesn't happen again? IMO that responsibility is the parents.


I'm not sure I understand? What are the parents supposed to do? I think the responsiblilty is that of the adults in charge - which would be the staff of the nursery while the parents are away. And as you said, you were right there when it happened, so what would you have done to prevent it? It sounds like you are holding the parents to a higher standard and expecting them to control the child's behavior even though the staff that was right there couldn't? I'm just not getting it?

[mamicka]

The parents can't do anything the first time it happens. They can do something to drastically reduce the probability that it will happen again. I've not said anything about the parents being able to have prevented the first incident. I'm not sure why my comments are being read that way. Everything I've said here has been regarding future action & the attitude of the parents going forward.

[mamicka]

IMO, it really depends on the child re the impulse control. If a child is closer to 3 than 2 (but still technically a 2yo) and more mature, IMO, they can have quite a bit of impulse control. I see this at my DDs daycare. I also see this at our church nursery. Which, BTW, is divided by age 0-18m in the baby room, 19m-35m in 2yo room (used to be 24m to 35m), 3's, 4s, etc.. Children move up in September after the appropriate birthday, so there can be quite an age range. And, there are still problems. For example, when DD#1 was in the 2yo room (back when it was 24m and up), there was a little boy with Downs who was 1 yr older (3 going on 4) than he should have been in that room, but he supposedly had a "monitor" with him at all times (a 10-11yr old child). He was very very aggressive and hurt some of the other children. When DH was helping in the room one day (not as the boy's monitor), the boy picked up a preschool chair (the kind that are also used in schools, plastic seat with metal legs) and threw it at DD#1. As it happened, DH's leg was in the way and it struck DH instead of DD#1. DH said the boy threw it with far more force than he would have ever expected of a child and it hurt a lot when the chair hit him (my DH is a big guy with a huge pain tolerance), and he had a bruise after. I shudder to think what could have happened if the chair had hit a child.

We raised it with the director of the room (the pastor's wife) and nothing was done. We spoke to a couple of other parents and they said "well, the parents of that boy need a break". Yeah, whatever. Then they should leave him with a sitter or other responsible adult. Because a 10yr "monitor" was clearly not able to handle this child (and, IMO, shouldn't have been expected to be able to handle him). I'm not sure what happened, I don't see him in the 3yo room this year. Maybe they moved him into his age room (he should be in the 4yo room now, moving into the 5s in Sept).

Anyway, my point is even with separating children by ages, there are going to be issues that need to be dealt with. I didn't think that our church dealt appropriate with this boy (it wasn't just this one incident, there were many that DH and I witnessed) and frankly, it was a serious injury just waiting to happen. Our church welcomes all children, regardless of ongoing problems or issues. I'm not sure that is the best approach. Its one of the reasons that one of us stayed in the 2yo room with DD#1 pretty much the whole year.

I don't know how to make it better, though. In this case, the boy was not able to stay in the service (he was very loud and disruptive). But, the parents probably did need a break (spiritual or otherwise).

Wow, Melissa. I agree that it doesn't sound like your nursery was handled correctly. I understand parents needing a break but I think we need to also consider at what expense/whose expense? There has to be a way to give the parents a break (definitely something that the church family should do) without putting other kids in danger. I'm sorry you had that situation & I'm glad it was only your DH that got hurt.