Help me with this behavior! Please.

[chlobo]

DD is 4, almost 5yrs old. She has always been a handful but lately her behavior has gotten out of hand & I don't know what to do. I'm wondering if I should have her evaluated for something, although I don't know what. Here are some of her behaviors:

*She'll ask for something & when the answer is no she'll pout & get defiant & whiny

*If she doesn't get her way she pouts & sometimes yells at us. Or if she's playing with friends she just pouts & sullks.

*She whines a zillion times a day when her baby brother (1 yr old) touches her things that she leaves out, even though we constantly remind her to put them away.

*When we're trying to discipline her she'll start shouting that she "doesn't like that word" (we have to guess which one) & then just gets irrational & more defiant if we ask which word & even hysterical.

*Sometimes when we are driving & listening to music if someone starts talking she'll tell them to stop talking (rudely) cause she can't listen to the music (as if 2 things at once is too much).

*If you interrupt her while she's talking she gets pissed & whines that we made her forget what she was going to say

*She seems sensitive to smells

Is this a sensory processing disorder? Neurological problem?

[Twoboos]

You are not alone. We have much of this going on too, with DD1 who's 4 3/4. There is also alot of her sticking her nose in the air, turning on her heel and walking (stomping) away if things don't go her way, while announcing, "I'm NOT going to <blank>".

I have convinced myself it'd a 4-5yo thing. But if it's not, I'll be getting her evaluated, too!

[lisams]

*When we're trying to discipline her she'll start shouting that she "doesn't like that word" (we have to guess which one) & then just gets irrational & more defiant if we ask which word & even hysterical.



When she's in that mood, there is no rational and trying to reason or even trying to work it out is just going to make things worse, they basically have downshifted and are no longer in a rational state. I simply (and as calm as possible!) say "Go to your room. When you are ready to speak to mommy in a nice way you may come out." Just as I wouldn't let her speak to anyone else that way, I won't let her speak to me that way. When she was younger, there were times where she had to be carried to her room while she was screaming.

I'm a big believer in gentle discipline but I'm also a big believer in not letting DD treat me in a way I wouldn't want her to treat others. If that means she needs to go to her room and blow the steam off, then that's what it means. We have found that the more we tried reasoning or talking through the problem when she was in a "mood" it almost always made things escalate and nothing good came of it. So now we nip the sassing or back talk, she goes to her room to cool off and then we talk about it. She now only needs "the eye" from me or "Excuse me?" said in that certain tone and she knows she needs to rethink how she is talking to me. Most of the time....ah five year olds.

[maestramommy]

A couple of behaviors that happen a lot around here are:

1) If you say no to something she wants, she gets pouty, whiney, or has a full scale tantrum/meltdown, depending on time of day, her general mood, whether naptime/bedtime is imminent.

2) She doesn't like it when her little sister touches her toys, or things she perceives to be hers. She'll often take it away and yell, "share!":ROTFLMAO:

3) Sometimes in the car she will suddenly interrupt in various ways if the conversation gets very animated/loud. I've just noticed this recently. She likes listening to HER music, and I think loud conversations intrude.

4) sometimes when we are disciplining her, she'll say, "goodbye!" Used to be just "bye!" I'm wondering when she'll learn "go away!":p

For all things except the car, I just have to hold firm, give her alternatives, and just leave it at that. I try very hard not to let her behavior get to me, or let it appear that it's getting to me. Dh and I agree that when she starts losing control it's very important that we stay in control of ourselves.

Gotta go! I'll write more later.

[lisams]

4) sometimes when we are disciplining her, she'll say, "goodbye!" Used to be just "bye!" I'm wondering when she'll learn "go away!":p


I know this is horrible, but this one made me lol!

[kristenk]

Sounds a lot like our house. DD just turned 4 in Feb, though, so it looks like we get to deal with this for a lot longer.

I think I'm going to actually read the copy of 123 Magic I picked up a few years ago and try to implement it.

Our biggest issues are interrupting and blame-placing. For some reason, everyone interrupts DD and only DD and DD is very into placing blame, which drives me batty. I have no idea how to deal with those things.

Good luck to us all!:ROTFLMAO:

[brittone2]

Does it help to know we're in pretty much the same boat with my almost 4.5 year old? Eeek. Ages 2 and 3 were nothing in comparison ;) I am fairly knowledgeable about Sensory Processing disorders, but I think what you have on your hands is just a typically developing 4 year old from what you describe. Fun, huh?

We do a lot of scripting, a lot of "try again" or "can you say that in a better way?" When he flips out we do some reflecting of feelings "you are angry at your sister. You don't like when she touches your stuff" (ds has a "stash drawer" in his nightstand and if DD even touches the handle he freaks out, but that's his private place for his things. Yeah, things like acorns, hickory nuts, unused drinking straws, assorted rocks, a tin of altoids, and other assorted treasures :ROTFLMAO: ). We try to give him more appropriate ways to get out his upset. I can't reason w/ him when he's raging mad or extremely teary, so I let him get it out and then we talk about what he could have done, said, etc. or what could have prevented the situation in the first place (cleaning up so sister didn't touch his stuff).

Other than teaching alternatives, I'm not sure there's much we can do to stop them from being 4, unfortunately. I do find that sometimes my own words come back out me and I realize I need to cool my own sarcasm/sassiness because I hear it reflected back in his tone occasionally, even though I'm fairly careful.

I think a lot of it is them trying to exert control over their own environment through words and actions. They are realizing that words and actions have power (the power to p!ss mom and dad off :wink2: ). Everything I've read says this is all age-typical. But...I'm with you. It isn't fun!

[s_gosney]

Yep, count us in too.

NAK, so can't write much, but I'm reading this book and it's wonderful. http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Parents-Power-Struggles-Lifetime/dp/0060930438/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217458528&sr=8-2

[brittone2]

Yep, count us in too.

NAK, so can't write much, but I'm reading this book and it's wonderful. http://www.amazon.com/Kids-Parents-Power-Struggles-Lifetime/dp/0060930438/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217458528&sr=8-2

Thanks for the recommendation. I have heard of this one but haven't read it yet (I've read other books by her though). I'll have to see if I can round this one up ;)

[lisams]

I do find that sometimes my own words come back out me and I realize I need to cool my own sarcasm/sassiness because I hear it reflected back in his tone occasionally, even though I'm fairly careful.


Just today DD said "Mommy, I don't like the tone you're using with me." Hmm, wonder where she got that from?!!

[s7714]

Unfortunately I think it's a perfectly normal stage. We call it the "5 going on 13" mindset in our house. ;) They are starting to realize they're separate entities from us but still have limited control over their environment.

We started giving our 5 year old DD a few set chores, an allowance and a little more control over some situations and it's helped a lot. For instance, I no longer make her take a nap or have quiet time in her room every day (unless it's blatantly clear she needs a nap). She'll ask every day after I put her sister down if she can stay up and it never fails that she's purely elated if I tell her yes. There are certain activities that she's only allowed to do while her sister is asleep (playing computer games, playing with her small beading sets, etc.) so she's motivated to behave herself so she can stay up. She also seems to feel empowered by the fact we're asking her to help with grownup things like putting clean dishes away and taking trash out. No doubt the willingness to do those things will be short lived, but at this age she at least seems to want to help out.

ETA:

*If you interrupt her while she's talking she gets pissed & whines that we made her forget what she was going to say
I've personally been really working hard on this one because I know I've been really bad about interrupting my DDs when they're trying to argue a point. Granted one shouldn't have to deal with constant arguing, but in all reality no one--not even adults--like to be interrupted. My DD always responds with "that's NOT what I was going to say" (even though I know darn well it was...) which got me thinking. I always hate it when DH or another adult presumes to know what I'm going to say and comments before I finish my thought, so I can fully see why a 5 year old with limited communication skills would get totally flustered when interrupted! I realized I should be extending the same courtesy to my 5 year old that I extend to adults and try to avoid interrupting her. I now try to stop what I'm doing, show her I'm listening and hear her out. The answer still may be not what she wants to hear (causing pouting or more arguing), but I want her to learn by example that hearing people out and not just talking is an important part of the communication process. She seems to pout less if she sees I'm listening to her and not just cutting her off with a "No!" before she can even finish her sentence. It's been a tough habit to break and I'm still working on it, but I have noticed a difference in my DDs behavior since I started changing the way I was reacting in those situations. Just food for thought!

[lizajane]

i have a 5 year old with a mental health problem and what you describe sounds 100% developmentally appropriate. absolutely normal. but in case i misunderstood, here are some behaviors that led to our evaluation and diagnosis of my child:

-withdrawing from friends, sitting in corner sucking thumb, refusing to talk
-crying (tears) often, showing real sadness that was NOT a tantrum
-severe mood swings from hyperactive to dead silent and "i want to go home."
-wanting to spend more and more time at home, to the exclusion of his favorite activites (playing with friends, going to the pool, preschool.)
-panic attacks when trapped (carseat, accidentally locked door), unable to find parent or caregiver
-remarks from his teacher that he 1) could not be controlled 2) interupted often 3) acted overly tired 4) started thumb sucking in class after not doing it in school at all 5) inappropriately seeking attention from peers 6)seeming to get in trouble on purpose
-hyperactivity in a dangerous way that could not be controlled by discipline or positive attention- climbing, swinging from trees, jumping off heights, running in circles, running down store aisles, school hallways, etc.
-repeating himself often as if he just wanted to hear himself say it again
-and the number one concern: "i am thinking about something i don't want to think about and i can't stop thinking about it."

[chlobo]

I guess it's not so much the behaviors (except the "I don't like that word), it's her over the top reaction to everything. Everything is a drama. Every.single.time. I say no to something she dissolves into drama. Pouting, whining and that can sometimes escalate to the irrational state. For example, this is what happened at the end of her playdate today. maybe someone has some ideas of what I could have done:

The girl we were playing with had to go pick up her brother at camp so we needed to clean up & leave. As soon as I told DD this she immediately put on the pout and complained the playdate was too short. Got over that hump and then she wanted to "borrow" something (she does this at every playdate, drives me crazy). I said "no" and then she started whining miserably. Talked back. I ushered her out and as we were walking home she started whining more about how unfair it was. I told her to stop carrying on and that's when she started screaming about how she didn't like that word and I shouldn't say it and it was all my fault because I wouldn't let her borrow something. Then she screamed & cried all the way home. I'm sure the neighbors were mortified.

[npace19147]

My DD1 is four and has many of the same behaviors you describe, unfortunately!

One thing that is often recommended that you don't say whether you did or not is to give a lot of advanced notice when a transition is coming up. So ten minutes before leaving warn her, then five, then every minute.

I do this and I don't think it has ever actually helped, but I live in hope (and denial).

I have also been there with you in the parental walk of shame carrying a screaming hitting kicking child out of the bookstore/park/playground. Best thing I think in that situation is to walk quickly and get home asap so tantrum can happen in the privacy of your own home. :)

[cairo06]

My four year old is also very dramatic. Her new thing is screaming that I'm so "unfair", when I ask her to do something she doesn't want to. She's been doing a lot of stomping lately too.

Giving her 5 minutes notice before we are going to leave the playdate works well for us. She normally accepts this without any problems.

[o_mom]

... I ushered her out and as we were walking home she started whining more about how unfair it was. I told her to stop carrying on and that's when she started screaming about how she didn't like that word and I shouldn't say it and it was all my fault because I wouldn't let her borrow something. Then she screamed & cried all the way home. I'm sure the neighbors were mortified.

I find that the less audience I give the drama, the faster it subsides. I allow DS1 to be upset within reason. If he wants to be miserable, that is his choice. I can't make him happy 100% of the time and I try hard not to get sucked into his misery. I offer a small bit of sympathy, such as "you sound sad that we had to leave" and then I tune it out. If it escalates to screaming or physical stuff I intervene, but otherwise I disengage as quickly as possible.

I agree with most people that it is a 4 yo thing. Some kids are more sensitive to noise, etc. without it being a SPD. The drama is also testing your reactions and how much control they have. One last thing I find is that most 4 yos have given up the naps or cut back and they can be very tired at times.

[jamesmom]

Sounds like typical 4 to 5 year old behavior, unfortunately. We are going through that with DS. It's going to be very LONG year!

[lizajane]

I guess it's not so much the behaviors (except the "I don't like that word), it's her over the top reaction to everything. Everything is a drama. Every.single.time. I say no to something she dissolves into drama. Pouting, whining and that can sometimes escalate to the irrational state. For example, this is what happened at the end of her playdate today. maybe someone has some ideas of what I could have done:

The girl we were playing with had to go pick up her brother at camp so we needed to clean up & leave. As soon as I told DD this she immediately put on the pout and complained the playdate was too short. Got over that hump and then she wanted to "borrow" something (she does this at every playdate, drives me crazy). I said "no" and then she started whining miserably. Talked back. I ushered her out and as we were walking home she started whining more about how unfair it was. I told her to stop carrying on and that's when she started screaming about how she didn't like that word and I shouldn't say it and it was all my fault because I wouldn't let her borrow something. Then she screamed & cried all the way home. I'm sure the neighbors were mortified.

1) prepare her. remind often. "we are going to a playdate. we can't stay for very long today. i will let you know when it is about time to leave so you can finish up what you are playing. we are not taking toys home with us and i expect you to leave nicely." and then a 10 minute warning, a 5 minute warning, a 2 minute warning. and validate her feelings, "i know you are having a great time and you do not want to leave. but we need to do something else now and it is time to go. remember that i expect you to leave nicely and i want you to show me your good manners now."

2) after you validate, ignore. "i understand that you are feeling upset. you have told me that you did not want to leave, and i understand that you wanted to stay. but it was time to go do something else and now we are NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT IT ANYMORE." the end. done. do NOT address it again. if you HAVE to, just keep saying, "i am sorry, but i am not going to talk about this anymore.

3) practice appropriate ways to share her feelings. "i understand that you are upset. but we do not scream. what could you do to let me know how you are feeling? could you use your words? could you tell me that you are feeling angry and frustrated? what can i do to help you feel less frustrated? would you like to talk about what other fun things we are going to do today?"

4) remind her to use appropriate ways to share her feelings, "i understand you don't want to leave, but it is not appropriate to scream. please try again if there is something you want to tell me." and then, "thank you for using your words. i do understand, but we need to move on. now we are not going to talk about this anymore."

[brittone2]

Agreeing w/ the tips from the PPs, and adding that I would remind her *before* a playdate that part of having a playdate is leaving successfully. I'd talk to her about what that means, and whether she feels that she can handle leaving successfully. I'd let her know that if she's not able to show you that she can leave without drama, then I would let her know that we might take a break from playdates until she's a little older and better able to handle leaving successfully. I wouldn't say it punitively or with blame, but instead let her know that there are certain expectations that surround the playdate. If she's not ready/able to handle them emotionally, then playdates will be on hold for a bit, and that she can retry it again in a few weeks.

I would definitely set her up for success before leaving. Maybe have something fun planned at home and let her know in advance that after the playdate you'll be ______ (baking cookies, going somewhere fun, etc.). I'd give her the 5 and 1 minute warnings and remind her about what activities you have planned at home. If she starts screaming at the playdate as you are leaving, I'd say, yes, I know you aren't ready to leave. But it is time. I'm sorry you are upset. And then I'd carry her out. I'd stop engaging at that point. I wouldn't feed into the drama. I'd stay matter of fact, and I'd carry her out. If it isn't effective at stalling you or engaging you (or others) in the drama, she may stop or tone it down in the future.

[lisams]

I guess it's not so much the behaviors (except the "I don't like that word), it's her over the top reaction to everything. Everything is a drama. Every.single.time. I say no to something she dissolves into drama. Pouting, whining and that can sometimes escalate to the irrational state. For example, this is what happened at the end of her playdate today. maybe someone has some ideas of what I could have done:

The girl we were playing with had to go pick up her brother at camp so we needed to clean up & leave. As soon as I told DD this she immediately put on the pout and complained the playdate was too short. Got over that hump and then she wanted to "borrow" something (she does this at every playdate, drives me crazy). I said "no" and then she started whining miserably. Talked back. I ushered her out and as we were walking home she started whining more about how unfair it was. I told her to stop carrying on and that's when she started screaming about how she didn't like that word and I shouldn't say it and it was all my fault because I wouldn't let her borrow something. Then she screamed & cried all the way home. I'm sure the neighbors were mortified.

Try to offer choices when you can. Some examples: In the car do you want to listen to Wiggles or Raffi? When we get home do you want to have a snack or get a game out? Would you like to hop out the door or walk backwards out the door? Should we look for bugs or sticks on the way home? And so on. It helps them feel like they have some control over the situation.

Good luck and just know that this is a phase that will pass!

[chlobo]

Thanks. I'll try out some of these tips for our next outing. I'll also have to work on being non-chalant.