Moving Overseas....How do you 'dwell in the bubble'

[mommy111]

So we're re-locating overseas for a few years for a work promotion and Beth's reply to my post on PVC free school materials made me think. We've learnt so much from this board, so that we eat almost exclusively organic, don't use plastics around food any more (even though my mom objects strenuously to the kleen kanteen sippy we use for DD and the 'unsafe and heavy' glass bottles that we use for DS ;) ). We even got organic formula for DS when we needed to supplement him the first few weeks. But how do we keep doing that when we're overseas? In the Middle East and Asia (which is where we will be travelling for work), there is no organic that I know of. How can we be lead-free....we will be in China for a good part of a year and the toys-lead scare freaks me out, but also what about lead in paints/water pipes etc where we live. Here, we've always asked for or had a lead inspection done, not possible over there.
I guess with food, we can try to buy mostly local, its more the hidden stuff that I'm concerned with and the fact that so many of these dangers you don't even know about....say, for example, I would not have thought twice about PVC-free supplies for school, I was really eductaed when I read the post here.
Any rules to stick by?
Any good websites?
Any advice?

[brittone2]

For toys, I would just focus on Euro brands (have stricter criteria for phthalates, etc. in most cases). I imagine you'll have internet and could order online from reputable companies (Euro wooden toys, plastics from companies like Playmobil, Lego, etc. iPlay (Calico Critters, Gotz dolls, etc.) is phthalate free. Karito Kids and Kathe Kruse are phthalate-free vinyl dolls.

WIth pipes, I've always heard for lead pipes, let the water run for a while before filling up a glass, etc. especially first thing in the morning (where the water may have hung out in the pipes for a while overnight). (eta: I wonder if you can bring a water filter with you?)

Can you paint in your residence? If you can paint with nontoxic paint overtop of whatever is there, it is a way to contain it somewhat. I wouldn't put a crib where a baby might chew on wood trim like a windowsill. I'd take a HEPA vac with me if possible. I've read they will suck up lead dust. A non HEPA vac will blow it around, which is even worse. Vacuum often if you can't paint. Have kids wash hands often before eating, etc. That will take care of a lot of it (keep fingernails short too). Can you get them lead tested every few months just to get an idea?

Will you have any land? A terrace? I know in Asia most living spaces are very small, but if you have access to a roof or terrace or patio maybe you can grow some of your own food? I am not sure how you'd find the safest soil (and you'd want to avoid growing in land next to an old house/apt building that might have been painted with lead paint in the past as it will get into the soil). If there's any way you can do small space gardening, there are some great sites like www.pathtofreedom.com or the book Square Foot Gardening.

I'd ship over anything you are uncertain about being able to obtain abroad if you can. (like a good HEPA vacuum). I assume you'll be able to buy toys, etc. online once you are there? If not, I'd consider buying now maybe?

In the grand scheme of things the real risk to your kids from PVC containing school supplies (other than something like a lunchbox or backpack) probably isn't a huge deal if they aren't mouthing things constantly. Cut yourself some slack there :) I think buying alternatives is a nice thing from an environmental perspective, but a binder I would not freak out about.

I wonder if you could network with some overseas parents on a site like MDC (Finding Your Tribe) and see what their advice is. Food would probably be the biggest challenge I would think.

Overall, the experience you are giving them with world travel probably far outweighs the risk. I'd try to periodically get them lead tested if that's an option over there just to keep an eye on things.

[StantonHyde]

I would just remind myself that there are millions of people in the world who live/eat in those countries and many of them are aok. Sure, some aren't for some of the reasons you mentioned, but most are. I had a friend who lived in China and found it to be very healthy--walked every where, bought fresh food every day etc etc. I wouldn't live in a bubble--I would embrace the culture--what an opportunity.

[Tondi G]

I would just remind myself that there are millions of people in the world who live/eat in those countries and many of them are aok. Sure, some aren't for some of the reasons you mentioned, but most are. I had a friend who lived in China and found it to be very healthy--walked every where, bought fresh food every day etc etc. I wouldn't live in a bubble--I would embrace the culture--what an opportunity.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! You and your children may only get one opportunity to do something like this... embrace it and enjoy it as best you can!

[citymama]

I have to agree with StantonHyde's post - one thing you have to do is not stress out about living in a bubble and embrace the new culture. It's easier said than done, but it makes life so much fuller and easier once you do the "when in Rome thing." Obviously not so much that you expose yourself and kids to things you know you should avoid, but within limits. I grew up overseas and am aware that I was exposed to everything from leaded gasoline to DDT to whatever. I'm uber-green in my life here - buy organic everything, no-PVC, minimize plastics, etc etc. But when I travel/live overseas, esp in Latin America and Asia, I have to relax and let go of this. To some degree, I do think life in many parts of Asia in particular is still inherently greener and more sustainable - much less processed food, fresh, seasonal veggies, fruit and whole grains being the staple in most diets, much less car dependence, cloth diapering, less of the "throwaway society" effect, etc. But I also know that my family is exposed to chemicals possibly banned in the US, far fewer consumer health and safety laws - car seats aren't required in most parts of the world! Definitely make sure you are well-equipped with things like car seats and other safety items you may not find wherever you're moving.

And, congrats on the move overseas - where are you going to be? We are considering it as well!

[MamaMolly]

We live overseas periodically. This next move will be the first time I take DD, so your question is timely for me!
Check with the CDC and travel books about the water where you are going. THe Lonely Planet series can be a good one. If there is a risk of contamination, I would take a Brita filter pitcher (or something like it) and enough filter replacements for however long you are going to be gone. Remember that even if your sink has a filter built in, your bath probably won't so train your DCs to NOT drink the bath.
For food, think about the things that are the top 10 or top 12 organic must haves and maybe consider not eating those for the duration. I had to go without strawberries and any salads for my entire pregnancy due to risk of Toxoplasmosis in the soil and I lived. Consider taking a multi vitamin for every member of the family.
Oh, and check with the CDC and your dentist about getting a flouride rinse or tablets if that is a consideration for you.

I think Brittone2's suggestions for your home are spot on. I plan to get a better vacuum and am thinking about a room filter depending on where we end up.

DHL is pretty good at delivering just about anywhere, but I wouldn't count on it. Stuff often gets delayed or 'lost'. I plan to buy ahead on clothes and toys. Clothes and shoes because in my experience the quality just isn't there in the places I've been, and the toys for the very reasons you've mentioned. I want to bring some things for birthday gifts for DD and for other kids too. Oh, and if you are an 'average' size American you may want to bring plenty of clothes for yourself. I'm a 12-14 and finding clothes anywhere but here and Europe is a PITA.

Have a lot of fun exploring your new home! Making it feel safe will help you settle in and relax. Cheers!

[citymama]

If there is a risk of contamination, I would take a Brita filter pitcher (or something like it) and enough filter replacements for however long you are going to be gone. Remember that even if your sink has a filter built in, your bath probably won't so train your DCs to NOT drink the bath.


Agree re. the bath, but re drinking water, if there's risk of bacterial contamination you need a lot more than a Brita filter! You'll need to boil your water before drinking or buy bottled until you've checked with other expats about what they do for drinking water. (Maybe the PP was referring to lead issues, but bacterial contamination is a big concern in many parts of the world!)

[cairo06]

I totally agree with StantonHyde's post. We moved to Egypt when DD was 16 months and lived there for another 15 months. I can't tell you how stressed out I was in the beginning. We live in Germany and I was used to buying everything organic and researching every purchase.

Eventually, I did find organic food and clothing - although a limited selection produced by Sekem (Under the Nile). I wish now I hadn't been quite so uptight. It took me several months to let go of my expectations and accept that I just couldn't have all the things I was used to and that DD wasn't going to die from being exposed to it all. What a waste of time. By the end of our stay I didn't want to go back to Germany. Despite the chaos, I spent one of the most wonderful times of my life there. I still get tears in my eyes when I look at the pictures. Enjoy it and relax... but take as much with you as you can!

[Neatfreak]

StantonHyde has some wise words indeed ...

So, we moved overseas to Thailand thirteen months ago. My DD had just turned three.

Things I Still Worry About:
- vehicle safety. I live in a place where the majority of the people cannot afford cars, let alone car seats for their children. I am glad that I learned how to install my DD's car seat with a lap-and-shoulder belt before we arrived as LATCH doesn't exist in Asia (nor does a top tether anchor). Also, the seat belts cannot be locked manually, so if my DD's seat did not have built-in lock-offs, I would have had to be prepared to use a locking clip.

- illness. It shook up my delayed/selective vaxing self, but all members of my family caught up on our regular vaxes as well as the ones for more tropical-sounding diseases before we arrived. We said yes to stuff like HepA/B, tetnus, typhoid, rabies (tons of sick stray dogs here). There is world-class medical care available in Bangkok, but a person is SOL when it comes to emergencies. The freeways are clogged on most workdays, and there is no requirement that other vehicles yield to ambulances. It's getting to a hospital in a timely fashion that kind of weighs on my mind, and my worst nightmare is my kid falling off of piece of playground equipment. I often use "it's too hot outside" as an excuse for not going to the playground.

Those are the Big Two.

Food supply is something that my feelings continue to evolve about. There is organic agriculture here, mostly vegetables. The foreign community here is large enough that there are tons of imported foodstuffs available. I can't find organic carrots here, but I've become thankful that I can find produce from Australia, New Zealand, and the USA. We still eat Granny Smith apples, potatoes, plums, grapes, etc. I would not be comfortable letting the organic versus non-organic issue compromise our nutrition. We're here for another two years, and that's a long time to go without eating a carrot. Honestly, what on earth would my kid eat, then? Eating well and healthfully (by Western standards) costs money, though. Imported food is pricey, but I think that it balances out. It's just strange that I spend more a week on breakfast cereal than I do on chicken. Also, my DD has sworn off milk since moving here. It's from different cows eating different things, so it smells and tastes different. She's been okay with cheese from New Zealand and Danone yogurt, so no biggie, but it was frustrating at first.

I'll be honest and admit that toys produced for the local market tend to be of the cheap plastic variety, so we stay away from them and ones that my DD receives as gifts tend to vanish overnight. Product recalls are not on the radar screen of the general public here like there are in North America. My first experience with this was with those dissolve-in-water beads with the date-rape chemical byproduct - those were all over the shelves in Bangkok at the time they were recalled elsewhere. There are incredible amount of wooden toys manufactured here for the American and European markets, so DD has acquired some nifty things that we haven't seen anywhere else. There are other familiar brands available here, like Lego and Learning Curve, and there are lots of action figures and the Barbie/Bratz stuff. Singapore has even more familiar brands. I would have trouble finding some of the safe-plastic/fancy wood/organic toys that I read about on the board here when I was living in North America, actually, so that really doesn't bug me too much.

Our Kleen Kanteens and Fogos were items that made the journey in our suitcase as polycarbonate is the water-bottle-material of choice, but there is plenty of stainless steel available here. Mugs and the like - just not water bottles. Demand for those in a third-world country probably isn't too great. I'm in the midst of upgrading my food storage containers from Rubbermaid to Pyrex, both of which I can find here.

Even locals here avoid drinking the tap water. Bottled is the way everyone goes. I am not sure if I would be any happier with tap water that goes through a Brita filter than I am with water that spent part of it's life in a plastic vessel. Seems like six of one and a half dozen of another ...

I brought a lot of OTC medication back from Canada with me this summer. There are plenty of familiar meds here, but their dosing instructions are less precise than I am comfortable with. My DD is too young for chewable children's tylenol, so I brought back several containers of the meltaway ones. It's only available in liquid form here for her age/weight.

School supplies? Not very important on my list. I'd much rather invest my time and money sourcing phlalate-free bath products for my kid (because it goes on her skin), less toxic pest control substances (they love DDT here, even for indoor use!), and laundry detergent that doesn't smell like an entire floral shop!

Your post didn't way whether you'll be spending your time abroad in developed places like Kuwait City, Beijing, Bangkok, KL, etc. that will have reasonable alternatives. My short experience here has been that life isn't without frustration about the things that I feel I've "given up" that are better for my family, but I don't regret the compromises that I've made for us to be comfortable and happy with this adventure that we're on

[MamaMolly]

I am not sure if I would be any happier with tap water that goes through a Brita filter than I am with water that spent part of it's life in a plastic vessel. Seems like six of one and a half dozen of another ...

Hi Neatfreak, can you tell me more? I thought the Brita filter was pretty much activated charcoal. Is it the plastic pitcher part that you find concerning or is it something in the filter? ITA about the pitcher...I was planning on using the pitcher to filter my water, but then storing the water in glass pitchers in the fridge. Thats what I do at home now. If there is something in the filter that can be harmful I'd really appreciate more info before I go and spend $$$$ on 2-3 years worth of filters! Thanks!!

(oh, and yes, I meant the Brita for lead, not for critters. Boiling or distilling will kill off most of that stuff. Such a PITA, but necessary in many parts of the world. And to think we flush our potties with drinking water...sigh!)

[mommy111]

Thank you all so much for posting, this is so awesome, I never realized there were so many overseas Mamas here as well! We're starting out in Beijing, but we can essentially be moved anywhere between Afganistan on the East and Bangladesh on the West and anywhere in Southeast Asia as well. We'll probably be outside the US for 5-6 years, and we get a promtion, although we'll also be making way less money than we're used to (goodbye pottery barn, hello world:)). But we figure now is the time, we will never be able to take on an opportunity like this after the kids are a little older and in serious school.
So here's what we think we're doing and please feel free to add/edit as you think appropriate:
1. Newly painted house to minimize lead exposure
2. Boil water then filter with brita (to remove lead) then store in glass bottles
3. For milk, local farms, we won't get organic because the feed is not organic, but at least we can confirm rGBH free and the cows are freely pastured
4. For eggs, the same
5. Pyrex containers that we take with us
6. Produce, wash with soap and water, avoid the top pesticide containing ones and probably try to grow whichever ones of those we can
7. A kitchen garden (guess what DD will have to play with instead of toys, a garden of her own ;) ) I'm going to buy seeds and here is what I have so far: tomatoes, lettuce, cabbage, cucumber, red and horseradish.
8. And, of course, the vacuum as Beth suggested, and probably have the house vacuumed, and if possible the walls washed before we get the kids in there
9. Maybe take a lead testing kit with us?
Any other ideas/ suggestions?

[MamaMolly]

Your list sounds great! Just a few things came to mind...

not to be a total downer, but in order to avoid compounding a problem you may want to check that the fresh paint you get is lead free before you have your house painted. I'm not sure which is more risky, letting old paint (that is stable) sit around or putting on new paint with the potential of new lead... Anyone have more experience in this than I want to offer any thoughts?

And as an aside we have lead paint in our house here in the good old U.S.A. We are renting so we can't paint, and the lead-free paint the homeowner used the last time is peeling off of everything: the walls, railings, trim, you name it. We have opted to have DD checked annually for lead. It is a simple blood test. So far no bad news, but our next check is next month so I'll let you know!

As for the fruit and veg the CDC/travel guides should be able to tell you if washing with soap and water is enough. Sometimes a soak in a mild bleach solution is necessary, too. The easy recipe we were given is a capful of bleach to a sink of water. Our rule of thumb for eating on the fly is to peel it, cook it, boil it or forget it.

A handy tip for dry goods such as flour and rice is that you can store them in the freezer to keep out/kill off the critters. And a bay leaf in the storage canister will help keep them away. As for ickies that may be in meat you can freeze it for 7 days to kill off anything. Put things like fabrics, baskets, and wooden art you might (WILL!!) buy in a black plastic garbage bag and leave it in the sun on your car's dashboard for a day or two to kill off stuff before you bring it in the house.

We always take the raid ant and roach bait disks. I feel they are safer than what I find on the market in places. And you can't take spray in the stuff you ship~at least we can't.

As for the milk we found that the local UHT shelf stable was fine, no hormones or anything. We have not encountered as many food issues as you might think. Expect veggies and fruit to be seasonal, so when the strawberry season (or onion or carrot or what ever!) is over then forget seeing it until next time. But what was available was fresh and delicious. Expect to see NORMAL sized chicken breasts, not the pteradactyl chunks we have here!

Expect to get the runs. I don't like to use products like Immodium because IMO it is better to let your body clear the bug. Again, just my opinion. Bring powdered Gatoraid or you can try this emergency rehydration solution recipe:
8tsp sugar
1tsp salt
5 cups of water
or:
1/2 cup rice
2 cups water
1/2 tsp salt
boil rice until mushy strain off water and drink starting with sips.

Sounds like you will be having a great time! What an opportunity! Take lots of photos and videos and bring back all kinds of 'ethno-plunder' as we call it. Rugs, carvings, handicrafts, music and instruments, so many things your kids will treasure as they get older!
Cheers,

[elephantmeg]

I would make sure that any milk is pasturized. TB etc can be passed freely from cows to people-that's what started the pasturization of milk here. Just my $0.02. WHen we lived in Africa we washed hard veggies (squash type stuff, cucumbers, tomatoes etc) in soap and water but did the chlorox rinse for leafy veggies. You know it's (the chlorox) off when the veggies aren't slippery. We had a huge boiler (probably a canner thinking back on it) that we boiled water in.

[cairo06]

Great post from MamaMolly. Also agree on making sure that new paint is lead free. I repainted our apartment and was kind of shocked when the salesman asked me if I wanted my paint w/lead or w/out.

[mommy111]

Sheesh, thank you for that advice, didn't even think any new pant would have lead!!!!! Thank you for pointing that out. Also, we've read some of the guidelines and it sounds like boiling milk, making sure its at boiling temp for 10-20 mins should kill almost everything even TB? I'll go over the CDC guidelines again, thank s for pointing this out. If that's a way to do it, I'd rather do that than use milk in a pack that comes from heaven knows where and that has rGBH and all other kinds of antibiotics/hormnes floating about in it, although if that's not an option, than I don't know what else we'll do.

[elephantmeg]

boiling milk turns it into clumps I think. I think you have to get it to just before boiling. But I don't know. I drank powdered milk growing up which came from Europe so it's probably hormone free (but don't quote me on that). Really I don't think you want to pasteurize your own milk. Boiling water, yes, bring it to a boil and keep it there for 10 min.

ETA
here's a link-if you read down far enough it talks about how to pasteurize at home
http://www.fcs.msue.msu.edu/ff/pdffiles/foodsafety2.pdf

[dcmom2b3]

Perhaps a good set of thermometers -- instant read, oven, fridge, freezer, candy, goodness knows what else, would be a nice thing to have along, since at least some of your concerns will be assuaged by your ability to peg exactly how hot or cold things are.

[citymama]

boiling milk turns it into clumps I think. I think you have to get it to just before boiling. But I don't know. I drank powdered milk growing up which came from Europe so it's probably hormone free (but don't quote me on that). Really I don't think you want to pasteurize your own milk. Boiling water, yes, bring it to a boil and keep it there for 10 min.

ETA
here's a link-if you read down far enough it talks about how to pasteurize at home
http://www.fcs.msue.msu.edu/ff/pdffiles/foodsafety2.pdf

You can and should boil your milk when in Asia. Buy pasteurized milk, then boil it (but don't cook it or let it boil long as you would with water). In South Asia, adulteration of milk (with water, typically) is common and you absolutely have to boil it.

[ellsie22]

I may be joining the overseas ranks soon, so any advice is welcome. Thanks for everything so far.