Food for Thought: The Election & How We are Viewed by the rest of the World

[Bens Momma]

I found this article from a British source while I was reading today.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/10/uselections2008.barackobama

Definitely food for thought. Interesting how closely this election is being watched by the rest of the world and what the results would be if this was a global election. What WILL the rest of the world say/think if we re-elect the Republicans and a candidate that will continue many of Bush's policies???

Think I'm developing an ulcer over this election....:praying:

[shilo]

well, at the risk of being called un-patriotic and anti-american, i have to say i personally do think that what the world thinks actually does matter and IS a part of the bigger picture here. whenever this has come up before the basic response has been "well, if you think they're so right and we're so wrong, why don't you go live somewhere else..." but that's so short sighted imho. from international relations to humanitarian concerns, from the global economy, trade and global banking (financing/credit) to the climate crisis, the good will and cooperation of the world will be _essential_ in not only moving forward, but protecting america's long term interests and security. to thumb up our collective noses, blithely ignore and outright dismiss the sentiments of the world only jeopardizes our ability to protect ourselves and our future stability as a nation.

just my 2 pennies,
lori

[bubbaray]

I heard on the Canadian news a few months ago that something like 80% of Canadians said they would vote for Obama.

Ironically, Obama could end up having negative effects for Canada as he wants to scrap NAFTA and McCain has said he wants to keep it. I think its fair to say that, in general terms, there's no love lost between the average Canadian and Bush. Most Canadians aren't particularly familiar with the issues and the effects on things like NAFTA and trade, but they just do not like Bush and figure that McCain is from the same party, so he must be the same as Bush.

[KBecks]

I think worrying too much about what other people think is a sign of insecurity. Seriously, I try not to get too wrapped up in others' opinions in real life, I try to do what I feel is the right thing to do, and that works pretty well.

Let other countries think what they want. We are not running the US to please others, if it's possible to please others at all anyway.

[kcandz]

We are not running the US to please others, if it's possible to please others at all anyway.


I don't think any country in this world is running itself to please others. The fact remains all countries are more inter-related now than ever, and recognizing that we are a world community is not a bad thing. International relations is a fact of life. We all ideally want to get along with our neighbors.

I find it interesting to read about perspectives outside of my immediate culture. That includes what the world thinks of our election. I read with interest about others' elections as well.

[gatorsmom]

well, at the risk of being called un-patriotic and anti-american, i have to say i personally do think that what the world thinks actually does matter and IS a part of the bigger picture here. whenever this has come up before the basic response has been "well, if you think they're so right and we're so wrong, why don't you go live somewhere else..." but that's so short sighted imho. from international relations to humanitarian concerns, from the global economy, trade and global banking (financing/credit) to the climate crisis, the good will and cooperation of the world will be _essential_ in not only moving forward, but protecting america's long term interests and security. to thumb up our collective noses, blithely ignore and outright dismiss the sentiments of the world only jeopardizes our ability to protect ourselves and our future stability as a nation.

just my 2 pennies,
lori

I could not agree with you more. Very well put. We absolutely need our allies and the rest of the world to think well of us. We are naive to think that having the biggest and most guns is the best way to protect ourselves. Diplomacy in our country is underrated. (I should just stop trying to explain myself and say YEAH THAT!).

[kijip]

I agree with Lori and Lisa.

Besides, if what the rest of the world thinks is unimportant, why then do we stress international cred as a qualification for President? :ROTFLMAO:

My BILs other ILs (follow that? My husband's brother's wife's family) are from Norway. They consider themselves to be very conservative by Norway standards. But on a point by point comparison, that puts them as equivalent to liberal Democrats here in the states. Always thought that was funny.

[KBecks]

Do you expect other countries voters to consider our feelings?

Nevermind. I am going to go to Target now and look at the dollar section for goody bag items.

[fivi2]

While I will vote how I want to vote, the way a candidate is perceived internationally may be one of the criteria that I consider. Not the most important factor by a long shot, but A factor.

[Wife_and_mommy]

They consider themselves to be very conservative by Norway standards. But on a point by point comparison, that puts them as equivalent to liberal Democrats here in the states. Always thought that was funny.

I consider that immensely frightening.

I agree we should have good/positive relations with the rest of the world. I think it says alot, though, that our enemies are hoping Obama wins the presidency. Does that give no one pause?

FTR: Haven't read the article yet. I'm off to put kids to bed.

[Bens Momma]

I am not basing my vote on what the rest of the world thinks. However I do find it interesting to see foreign opinions. I do think that our foreign relations and how we are viewed by other nations of the world is quite important. In discussions with some foreign friends over the past few years I can tell you that many found it laughable (for lack of a better term) that we re-elected Bush. Despite my personal opinions, he often is viewed unfavorably overall and not very intelligent by many outside our country. And he's the Leader of the Free World! Got to love democracy though, at least we do have a voice and the right to choose our leaders whether or not it works out the way we want it to! Whomever becomes President has MUCH to do domestically & abroad, neither party would dispute that!

[egoldber]

Polling in Germany, France, Britain and Russia shows that Obama would win by whopping majorities

While I grant you it is debatable if Russia is really an ally, since when in recent history have Germany, France and Britain been our enemies?

[Bens Momma]

[QUOTE=kcandz]I don't think any country in this world is running itself to please others. The fact remains all countries are more inter-related now than ever, and recognizing that we are a world community is not a bad thing. International relations is a fact of life. We all ideally want to get along with our neighbors.

:yeahthat:

[KHF]

I agree we should have good/positive relations with the rest of the world. I think it says alot, though, that our enemies are hoping Obama wins the presidency. Does that give no one pause?

I'm not sure that I consider Europe and the UK as enemies of the United States? I know you said you hadn't read the article though, so maybe you didn't realize it was a British-based article.

[bubbaray]

I think it says alot, though, that our enemies are hoping Obama wins the presidency.


Um, yo, Canada isn't an enemy of the US. We're really very friendly folks, eh.

We could be even better friends if you could get Target to open stores up here, though.

[MontrealMum]

Um, yo, Canada isn't an enemy of the US. We're really very friendly folks, eh.

We could be even better friends if you could get Target to open stores up here, though.

:yeahthat:

Of course, Canadians *did* burn down the White House...during the War of 1812 ;) And I think there was a Fenian raid in the 19th c - that involved taking over a pub in New York state...but seriously, Cananadian-US relations have been strong and more than friendly for years.

[shilo]

a summary of the actual poll conducted by GlobeScan that all of these articles refer to:

"A total of 23,531 people in Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Kenya, Lebanon, Mexico, Nigeria, Panama, the Philippines, Poland, Russia, Singapore, Turkey, the UAE, Britain and the United States were interviewed face-to-face or by telephone in July and August 2008 for the poll."

"The countries most optimistic that an Obama presidency would improve relations were America's NATO allies -- Canada (69 percent), France (62 percent), Germany (61 percent), Britain (54 percent), Italy (64 percent -- as well as Australia (62 percent), Kenya (87 percent) and Nigeria (71 percent)."

hth, lori.

[kijip]

I think it says alot, though, that our enemies are hoping Obama wins the presidency. Does that give no one pause?



Surely you did not mean Norway was an enemy. :)

As for other countries, which of our enemies want Obama to win? Iran and Korea? The Iraq and Afghan governments are not our enemies and I was unaware we were able to poll Al Queda. Just wondering exactly who you mean by enemies? And how do you know who they want to win?

[kijip]

I consider that immensely frightening.


Why? Norway presently is by all accounts a stable place that mostly lives and lets live. I think the reason their conservatives resemble liberals here is because there is a near national consensus on the social programs they invest in- things we think very liberal like family leave they take for granted like seniors here take SS for granted/as a given regardless of party.

[maestramommy]

I could not agree with you more. Very well put. We absolutely need our allies and the rest of the world to think well of us. We are naive to think that having the biggest and most guns is the best way to protect ourselves. Diplomacy in our country is underrated. (I should just stop trying to explain myself and say YEAH THAT!).

ITA with you and Lori!

[ohiomom]

So I will say "YEAH THAT!!!"

I often think it pitiful that the current administration managed to squander the world's empathy and concern following 9/11. At that time, I perceived that much of the world was generally concerned about the direct attack on our country. Now, I fear many would cheer if (when) a similar attack occurs.

Tonight I am thinking of all the lives and potential lost on 9/11/2001.....

[Wife_and_mommy]

Surely you did not mean Norway was an enemy. :)

As for other countries, which of our enemies want Obama to win? Iran and Korea? The Iraq and Afghan governments are not our enemies and I was unaware we were able to poll Al Queda. Just wondering exactly who you mean by enemies? And how do you know who they want to win?

:ROTFLMAO: I wasn't thinking of Canada(:kisscheek: bubbaray;) ), Norway, Europe, or the UK. Iran and Korea would be good starts. I didn't realize we had to poll Al Queda to know they're enemies? I'd venture to say any country harboring them or who celebrated 9/11/01 is an enemy.

I'll add a link with full disclosure that it's from a conservative site. I looked a bit for a "mainstream" news media that carried this story and didn't find one.

http://tinyurl.com/59z28n

[bubbaray]

:ROTFLMAO: I wasn't thinking of Canada(:kisscheek: bubbaray;) ), Norway, Europe, or the UK. Iran and Korea would be good starts.


Where's the "right back at ya" smilie, LOL!

But, seriously, could you talk to Target about opening stores up here? Much obliged.... I'd be :bouncy:

[Wife_and_mommy]

Why? Norway presently is by all accounts a stable place that mostly lives and lets live. I think the reason their conservatives resemble liberals here is because there is a near national consensus on the social programs they invest in- things we think very liberal like family leave they take for granted like seniors here take SS for granted/as a given regardless of party.

Different viewpoints--simple as that. I believe the balance we have is sufficient.

[kijip]

I didn't realize we had to poll Al Queda to know they're enemies?

Just to clarify- I did not mean poll them to find out if they are our enemies, I was joking about the impossibility of polling them to find out which US candidate they like more.

[Globetrotter]

Let other countries think what they want. We are not running the US to please others, if it's possible to please others at all anyway.

But this sort of thinking has gotten the U.S. into a very unfavorable position. As others have suggested, international relations are extremely important.

On a side note, I also think it's extremely important to be critical of any administration, including our own, and I don't like the notion of... if you don't like it, leave! That is one thing I've never understood and never will, and I would feel that way about any country I live in.

We must keep asking questions and keep the politicians honest (as far as possible ;)).

[Wife_and_mommy]

Of course, Canadians *did* burn down the White House...during the War of 1812 ;) And I think there was a Fenian raid in the 19th c - that involved taking over a pub in New York state...but seriously, Cananadian-US relations have been strong and more than friendly for years.

This is reading condescendingly. Read my post below.

Here's one for you too: :kisscheek: ;)

[mamicka]

So I will say "YEAH THAT!!!"

I often think it pitiful that the current administration managed to squander the world's empathy and concern following 9/11. At that time, I perceived that much of the world was generally concerned about the direct attack on our country. Now, I fear many would cheer if (when) a similar attack occurs.

Tonight I am thinking of all the lives and potential lost on 9/11/2001.....

Really? If I thought that there was a great number of people in any country that would cheer at another terrorist attack in the US, that would only make me more apathetic to their political opinions. Seriously, what kind of person is happy when things like that happen? Not someone whose opinion I respect, I assure you.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware/conscious person. I frequently interact with people outside the US. This isn't about me, so I won't give further detail. But having good international relations shouldn't be a reason to vote for someone that *you* don't think is the best person for *your* country. I don't think Obama is the best person for our country. I don't care if the rest of the world likes him better than McCain. I think that McCain will do a *great* job fostering good relationships with other countries. I don't think caring about who that country likes best should have anything to do with our election.

[megs4413]

Am I the only one that has a problem with any European suggesting that we MUST choose one candidate over the other? Do they have some sort of crystal ball that we don't that shows them that they CANNOT possibly work with McCain? I am really disgusted with this whole "McBush" concept...i don't agree with it at all. I dont like how "republican" is a dirty word in europe.

I have a HUUUUUUGE problem with this quote from the article:
"If it is deemed to have been about race - that Obama was rejected because of his colour - the world's verdict will be harsh."

Who exactly is going to be able to determine if this contest was decided by race??? If Obama doesn't win, how will anyone know if it was his skin color that made the difference? I, personally, think the issue of race has taken a bit of a backseat lately. I think the major role race will play in this election is BRINGING OUT THE MINORITY VOTE!

[megs4413]

Really? If I thought that there was a great number of people in any country that would cheer at another terrorist attack in the US, that would only make me more apathetic to their political opinions. Seriously, what kind of person is happy when things like that happen? Not someone whose opinion I respect, I assure you.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware/conscious person. I frequently interact with people outside the US. This isn't about me, so I won't give further detail. But having good international relations shouldn't be a reason to vote for someone that *you* don't think is the best person for *your* country. I don't think Obama is the best person for our country. I don't care if the rest of the world likes him better than McCain. I think that McCain will do a *great* job fostering good relationships with other countries. I don't think caring about who that country likes best should have anything to do with our election.

totally agreeing with this....

[CAM7]

Really? If I thought that there was a great number of people in any country that would cheer at another terrorist attack in the US, that would only make me more apathetic to their political opinions. Seriously, what kind of person is happy when things like that happen? Not someone whose opinion I respect, I assure you.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware/conscious person. I frequently interact with people outside the US. This isn't about me, so I won't give further detail. But having good international relations shouldn't be a reason to vote for someone that *you* don't think is the best person for *your* country. I don't think Obama is the best person for our country. I don't care if the rest of the world likes him better than McCain. I think that McCain will do a *great* job fostering good relationships with other countries. I don't think caring about who that country likes best should have anything to do with our election.

Agreed. From traveling abroad I know many Europeans that I've spoken to really don't have a reason to hate Americans. They just do...

I don't have the energy to deal with that sort of attitude.

[KBecks]

Here is a survey of world public opinion that shows that many in other countries don't believe 9/11 was caused by Al Quaeda.... some fairly large groups believe that the US or Israel did it.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/535.php?nid=&id=&pnt=535&lb=

It goes to show that many outside the US have very different views from the US population, and may be very misinformed about US events, news and policy.

Going to preschool now -- later!

[MontrealMum]

This is reading condescendingly. Read my post below.

Here's one for you too: :kisscheek: ;)


The post was written when it seemed that you were referring to Canada, France, Britain, Norway, and many other countries as our "enemies". You might read it in that spirit. They are true statements, included in any general history text of either Canada or the US. It was meant to be a lighthearted reminder of the unprecedented nature of Canadian-US relations and goodwill. If I'd meant to be more serious I might have mentioned the 96 Canadian Peacekeepers dead in Afghanistan and the fact that our two major political parties have comitted to continuing that mission to 2011 even though popular support is lagging. You have since cleared up your definition of "enemies" in your post referring specifically to Bubbaray. I won't go on further about the value of international goodwill because others have already mentioned it.

[CAM7]

It goes to show that many outside the US have very different views from the US population, and may be very misinformed about US events, news and policy.

Absolutely. A lot of my British friends would gather their info about Americans from watching TV shows like 90210, Dallas, MTV. Or better yet... they claim that CNN is a 'reliable news source'.

Eek.

During pub talk one of my Brit friends would commonly start a discussion with "...the problem with you Americans is...". Seems they are obsessed with American issues...or what they view as "issues".

Here's an example:

Brit Friend: "...the problem with you Americans is that you don't wish to get out and see how the rest of the world lives. We British for example have passports! 80% or better of us have our passports! If you Americans weren't so self centered you'd have a natural curiousity about how the rest of us live..."

This coming from a guy that has only seen NYC and Disney World. Coz, you know, he's 'seen how the Americans' live. Skipped the whoooooole middle of the country...lol.

When I mentioned to him that the large majority of Americans live pay check to pay check and can't afford to travel abroad he said he didn't believe it. Said that they 'travel abroad' even though many in Britain are not rich... but catching the chunnel to Paris from London is a bit cheaper though than going from say... Cedar Rapids Iowa to London for a week or two.

I think many Americans make the mistake of thinking that the Europeans are all sophisticates.

[o_mom]

Here is a survey of world public opinion that shows that many in other countries don't believe 9/11 was caused by Al Quaeda.... some fairly large groups believe that the US or Israel did it.

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/535.php?nid=&id=&pnt=535&lb=

It goes to show that many outside the US have very different views from the US population, and may be very misinformed about US events, news and policy.

Going to preschool now -- later!

How does this compare to the people in the US? Do you think that a poll here would show 100% of people naming Al Quadea?

Without that data, we cannot say that this shows "different views from the US population".

ETA: As of two years ago, apparently at least a third of Americans believed that the US government was involved in the 9/11 attacks: http://newspolls.org/story.php?story_id=55

[sanja973]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBecks
It goes to show that many outside the US have very different views from the US population, and may be very misinformed about US events, news and policy.

Did you miss this part?

"Though people with greater education generally have greater exposure to news, those with greater education are only slightly more likely to attribute 9/11 to al Qaeda. Steven Kull comments, "It does not appear that these beliefs can simply be attributed to a lack of exposure to information."

Sanja

[niccig]

Absolutely. A lot of my British friends would gather their info about Americans from watching TV shows like 90210, Dallas, MTV. Or better yet... they claim that CNN is a 'reliable news source'.

Eek.

During pub talk one of my Brit friends would commonly start a discussion with "...the problem with you Americans is...". Seems they are obsessed with American issues...or what they view as "issues".

Here's an example:

Brit Friend: "...the problem with you Americans is that you don't wish to get out and see how the rest of the world lives. We British for example have passports! 80% or better of us have our passports! If you Americans weren't so self centered you'd have a natural curiousity aboi


I think this can be said of many countries. Eg. I'm Australian, lived in Japan, Britain and USA. I hear "All your Australians...." a lot of times. People make this broad sweeping generalizations about everyone from a country, as if they are all the same. They're not - millions of people, people are going to be different, think different and behave different. And if I had one more person who expressed surprise that I didn't talk like the Crocodile Hunter or drink Fosters beer, I would scream. I don't know anyone in Australia that talks like the Crocodile Hunter did. It's like expecting all British people to have a cockney accent or all Americans to have a Texas accent.

It's why I'm in favour of travelling, going to different places and meeting different people as you realise that not everyone from the one country is the same, as well as not all that different to you. But of course, it doesn't help if you just go to Disneyland or NYC for America, sheesh..he missed the ENTIRE country.

[ohiomom]

Really? If I thought that there was a great number of people in any country that would cheer at another terrorist attack in the US, that would only make me more apathetic to their political opinions. Seriously, what kind of person is happy when things like that happen? Not someone whose opinion I respect, I assure you.

I consider myself a pretty globally aware/conscious person. I frequently interact with people outside the US. This isn't about me, so I won't give further detail. But having good international relations shouldn't be a reason to vote for someone that *you* don't think is the best person for *your* country. I don't think Obama is the best person for our country. I don't care if the rest of the world likes him better than McCain. I think that McCain will do a *great* job fostering good relationships with other countries. I don't think caring about who that country likes best should have anything to do with our election.

Yes really. Admittedly I prefer Obama for a multitude of reasons beyond any appeal he may have outside of the U.S.

I hung out with the international crowd in undergrad and that was my 1st exposure to learn there are a whole lot of people who are not in love with the U.S. and the meddling that has occured in other countries (supporting/propping up government leaders that would have not been chosen by the country itself as an example). Living in a rural community all my life to that point, I hadn't a clue.

Think about any sporting event -- lots of people root for the underdog to win or for the "stronger" person/group to lose. I personally feel there are lots of people outside the U.S. who would not be sad if we were again successfully attacked and showed our vulnerabilies.

Being a world leader/power carries responsibilities. It seems to me that the Iraq war has been incredibly damaging to our country in terms of global support and that is of concern to me.

We don't have to agree, you know. ;)

edited to fix caps.

[Globetrotter]

Here's an example:

Brit Friend: "...the problem with you Americans is that you don't wish to get out and see how the rest of the world lives. We British for example have passports! 80% or better of us have our passports! If you Americans weren't so self centered you'd have a natural curiousity about how the rest of us live..."



Your friend is right, though I find that a pretty unkind way to state it. He just sounds like a know-it-all, and those can be found in every country ;) Many people here are sheltered and less likely to travel to other countries. That is a fact, but it's not a surprise because the U.S. is HUGE and isolated and you're right... it is expensive to travel to other countries. Unless they live in a border state, the average middle class person here cannot afford to hop on a plane every year and travel to Asia, but the average middle class English family can afford to hop in their car and drive to France :) Naturally, they have more of an international exposure than most people here. Unless you live in a very diverse area of the U.S., it is easy to get by without much international exposure, which is a real shame really as there is so much to be learned from both sides through interaction. Nobody's fault, but that's just how it is.

The other thing is, people in most other countries take a greater interest in learning about the rest of the world. Again, we are so big and isolated that it's easy to feel cut off from that. As for why a lot of people outside the U.S. dislike us, it comes down to foreign policy and, on a lighter level, not all Americans are respectful of other cultures when they travel. It's the reputation, but I can't say it's entirely false. I've seen some pretty obnoxious and loud voices complaining that people in Thailand/Europe/etc.. don't speak English properly or that they can't get a good hamburger, or you name it... I've also seen some incredibly respectful American travelers who take the time to learn the language and get to know the culture, and it's a shame that some people spoil it for everyone. There are all types but the respectful ones blend in and go unnoticed, unfortunately!

I, too, interacted with the international community in college. It was a life altering experience for me, and one I want my kids to have. (and one of the main reasons I moved to a diverse state)