Arsenic levels in drinking water?

[mamicka]

Can someone help me here?

The water at DS's school has too much arsenic in it. Its supposed to be <10 ug/L but its 24 ug/L. That sounds really high to me, but I don't know anything about this except the reports that I read with my water bill & the what comes up with a basic google search. Apparently, the DNR has told the school that the level isn't high enough to warrant an alternative water supply, at least in part because its not a long term, chronic exposure. But that doesn't sound right to me. 5 days/week, 6.5 hours/day, 9 mos/year for 5 years sounds like a lot IMO.

I'm not sure what I'm asking for... studies that show that these levels are harmful? How is long-term chronic exposure defined? Thoughts?

TIA!

[brittone2]

I don't know about arsenic specifically, but "safe levels" of many chemicals are confusing because often they take the max "safe" dose and then divide it out to what a "safe" daily exposure is. The problem is that it doesn't always accurately reflect real-life biochemistry and interactions between various toxins.

I'm not familiar with safe levels of arsenic. I hope you can find some answers. You could try looking around at greenguide.com, ewg.org, ourstolenfuture.com, etc. for info.

[KBecks]

I wouldn't define the exposure in terms of hours and days, but how much water is drank (drunk?) at school. Can you send a personal water bottle? I know that sounds weird, but I'd consider it, especially for the older grades. I don't think I was a daily fountain/bubbler drinker at school, although Alek does like drinking from water fountains when we are out. You're talking maybe 10 sips though, so how much water is that? Maybe 1/2 cup?

I would wonder about the school's lunch program etc, but cooking water is drained and then I'd think about drinks like punch made with the school's water.

I don't know. I don't think I'd freak out, but you are wise to get more info. Maybe check with your pediatrician?

[mamicka]

I wouldn't define the exposure in terms of hours and days, but how much water is drank (drunk?) at school. Can you send a personal water bottle? I know that sounds weird, but I'd consider it, especially for the older grades. I don't think I was a daily fountain/bubbler drinker at school, although Alek does like drinking from water fountains when we are out. You're talking maybe 10 sips though, so how much water is that? Maybe 1/2 cup?

I would wonder about the school's lunch program etc, but cooking water is drained and then I'd think about drinks like punch made with the school's water.

I don't know. I don't think I'd freak out, but you are wise to get more info. Maybe check with your pediatrician?

Thanks, Karen. (Congrats, again, BTW :) ) I'm not freaking out about it... but I reserve the right to in the future, LOL.

I know what you mean about measuring the intake, but I'm not a water drinker at all (I don't think I've had an actual glass of water in months) so I don't really have a clue what to estimate. Don't most people drink water throughout the day? My kids do drink water but I don't monitor it (get their own drink from the fridge dispenser at home). I do send a water bottle everyday but its often not empty when he brings it home. The few times that I've been at school, the teachers are frequently telling the kids to get a drink. Most go to the water fountain, including DS.

DS doesn't get hot lunch so I didn't think about that, but that would be a concern, I would imagine.

Will there ever not be something to research about my kids' health?

[mamicka]

I don't know about arsenic specifically, but "safe levels" of many chemicals are confusing because often they take the max "safe" dose and then divide it out to what a "safe" daily exposure is. The problem is that it doesn't always accurately reflect real-life biochemistry and interactions between various toxins.

I'm not familiar with safe levels of arsenic. I hope you can find some answers. You could try looking around at greenguide.com, ewg.org, ourstolenfuture.com, etc. for info.

Thanks, Beth. I was hoping you'd chime in :). I'll look at those websites.

[ThreeofUs]

Most water fountains have filters on them. If your DC's primary water supply is from the fountain - and the school teachers aren't making up powdered drinks or other foods with tap water - then you're probably okay.

If there are no filters on the fountain or other taps used to make food, you could make the point that filters are both inexpensive and good business to install.

But I'd start asking pointed questions.

[o_mom]

DNR is not the one to go to. EPA is the regulator for drinking water.

This page (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/arsenic/regulations_factsheet.html) indicates that schools must comply with the 10 ppb. And, this page (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/arsenic/regulations.html) says it went into effect 2 years ago. Much more involved reading, but this page (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/arsenic/guidance.html) has guidance for states and you may find something in there that helps.

[mamicka]

DNR is not the one to go to. EPA is the regulator for drinking water.


Yes, that's what I thought, but they seem to be the ones who are now advising the school on this. I don't know why.

Thanks.

[mamicka]

I'm doubting that there are filters on the water fountains since nobody has mentioned it & its a pretty old building.

Its a good suggestion. Thanks!

[trales]

I have been out of the field for about 2 years so it will take some time to do some research for you. I have to wait for DD to take a nap. But . . . do not drink the water. Arsenic is much more toxic in a small dose chronic exposure situation than an acute event.

I used to work for the NH water resources research lab and we tested tons of wells for arsenic and a lot of other toxins. That being said my MS thesis in Geochemistry focused on nitrates in drinking water, but you end up doing them all. So, I am by no means an expert, but will you link you to a lot of information.

More later, must rescue dog from DD's clutches.

[ThreeofUs]

I'm doubting that there are filters on the water fountains since nobody has mentioned it & its a pretty old building.

Then I wouldn't let my kid drink the water, and I'd start having serious conversations with the daycare about the situation.

I don't want to be alarmist, but kids are highly susceptible to this type of exposure, and may be predisposed to illnesses as adults from drinking such water. See for example articles like - http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Arsenic-in-Drinking-Water-Predisposes-Children-To-Lung-Cancer-in-Later-Life-8835-1/

Get your EPA involved - they're good people who can really put pressure on. And GL!

[trales]

From the EPA's website http://www.epa.gov/safewater/arsenic/index.html
Arsenic is a semi-metal element in the periodic table. It is odorless and tasteless. It enters drinking water supplies from natural deposits in the earth or from agricultural and industrial practices.
Non-cancer effects can include thickening and discoloration of the skin, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting; diarrhea; numbness in hands and feet; partial paralysis; and blindness. Arsenic has been linked to cancer of the bladder, lungs, skin, kidney, nasal passages, liver, and prostate.
EPA has set the arsenic standard for drinking water at .010 parts per million (10 parts per billion) to protect consumers served by public water systems from the effects of long-term, chronic exposure to arsenic. Water systems must comply with this standard by January 23, 2006, providing additional protection to an estimated 13 million Americans.
This web site is designed to provide you with information about arsenic in drinking water and provide guidance materials to help the states and water systems comply with the standard.

Here is some really useful info from the WHO.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs210/en/index.html



The school needs to comply. Are they using city water? This is an EPA and and OSHA issue. I would be banging down the doors and calling. If it is city water what are the lead levels. With Arsenic can also come other things, radon, ect.




The bottom line is DO NOT DRINK THE WATER. THE LEVELS ARE TOO HIGH.

[mamicka]

Tracey, Bless you! I'd be grateful for any information or any direction you could point me in.

Thanks *so* much!

[mamicka]

Then I wouldn't let my kid drink the water, and I'd start having serious conversations with the daycare about the situation.

I don't want to be alarmist, but kids are highly susceptible to this type of exposure, and may be predisposed to illnesses as adults from drinking such water. See for example articles like - http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Arsenic-in-Drinking-Water-Predisposes-Children-To-Lung-Cancer-in-Later-Life-8835-1/

Get your EPA involved - they're good people who can really put pressure on. And GL!

Thanks, Ivy. Its at the elementary school. I'll check out that article.

I'll be making calls today. :(

[mamicka]

The school needs to comply. Are they using city water? This is an EPA and and OSHA issue. I would be banging down the doors and calling. If it is city water what are the lead levels. With Arsenic can also come other things, radon, ect.




The bottom line is DO NOT DRINK THE WATER. THE LEVELS ARE TOO HIGH.

The school has a public well. I don't know what any other levels are, but I'm gonna find out. I just found an article about the water at our school online from last week (newspaper from a different county). According to that, the school district couldn't be reached for comment. :shake:

Thank you, again, Tracey. :love5:

[trales]

http://www.epa.gov/ow/states/WI/

Osha office link with phone numbers

http://www.osha.gov/oshdir/wi.html

Link for info on your particular water supply. I don't know which town you are in, so I can't give you an analysis. PM if you want to share your town. This gives phone numbers.

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/dwinfo/wi.htm

EPA fines and enforcement
SDWA Enforcement
EPA's National Drinking Water Regulations are legally enforceable, meaning that both EPA and the states can take enforcement actions against water systems that are not meeting safety standards. EPA may issue administrative orders, take legal actions, or fine utilities for violation of the standards.

Who must comply with the Safe Drinking Water Act?
Any 'person' violating the National Primary Drinking Water Regulations or creating an imminent and substantial endangerment by contaminating a public water system or underground source of drinking water in the U.S. A 'person' is defined as an individual, corporation, company, association, partnership, State, municipality, or federal agency (and includes officers, employees, and agents of any corporation, company, association, State, municipality, or Federal agency).

What are the penalties for noncompliance?
Under Section 1414(b) of the SDWA, an imposed penalty not to exceed $25,000 per day; under Section 1414(g)(3) of the SDWA, an administrative order can result in a $5,000 maximum penalty assessed; up to $25,000 per violation per day; under Section 1431(b), the statutory maximum is $5,000 per violation per day of an emergency order; under Section 1432(c), tampering with a public water system carries a maximum civil penalty of $50,000; a maximum civil penalty of $20,000 can be imposed for an attempt or threat to tamper with a public water system; and under Section 1445(c), the statutory maximum penalty is $25,000 in a civil judical action for failing or refusing to keep appropriate records, make reports, etc.

[maestramommy]

Allison, that sounds pretty scary, but I'm curious. How did you find out about all of this? Did the school send a newsletter home?

[mamicka]

Kind-of a long explanation. I'm not sure where I read about it first, I'm almost positive it wasn't sent to me from school. I suspect that I came across something online while I was researching general "stuff" before school started. Whatever I read, it said that the arsenic was originally discovered last fall. I made a mental note & then meant to ask about it at the orientation. Orientation was busier than I thought it would be & while there, I noticed that the drinking fountains all had signs saying "out of order" so I figured that it was due to the arsenic. They had water coolers w/ cups at eat drinking fountain station. I assumed that they were handling it & put it out of my mind. I've since noticed that the drinking fountains are now functioning, the water coolers are also still there (although often empty), & the kids can use either to get a drink. I've asked a few parents with older kids if they know anything & they said they remember being told about it but they've all assumed that it was taken care of since they hadn't heard anything else. So I asked at the school office & all I can gather is that the levels are still high but they've not been required to do anything. They think they are going "above & beyond" (my words, not theirs) by making the water coolers available.

[DrSally]

So, they have water coolers avail (for the kids, not just in the principals office) with filtered water? Some teachers allow kids to keep water bottles on their desks (hydration helps learning and concentration). Maybe talk to the teacher about letting kids bring a bottle from home and fill it up with the water cooler. I've never heard of water fountains (those old gray ones) having filters?

[mamicka]

They do, & I know that he & the other K kids are allowed to use it. But I've heard from 2 other neighbor kids that their teachers don't allow them to use the coolers - they are told the water coolers are only for staff. That's probably just a communication break-down but still, it needs to be addressed.

I have no idea if it matters, but these are the white porcelain drinking fountains, not the big grey metal ones.

I don't necessarily think that this is a problem of kids being poisoned & they'll end-up with health concerns later because of it. But I think its a problem that this isn't common knowledge among the parents. The parents need to know this stuff so they can instruct their child to behave in a way that they've deemed safe. I'm kind-of ticked that this is still an issue & yet a notice has not been sent out this year - all the new families this year would have no way of knowing this.

[DrSally]

Yeah, I'd talk to the teacher about letting the kids fill their bottles with the cooler. It could be a long time until this gets sorted out, and I'd rather my kid have filtered drinking water until then. You just never know how chemicals will affect kids smaller and still developing bodies.

[trales]

I don't necessarily think that this is a problem of kids being poisoned & they'll end-up with health concerns later because of it.

I would say it is definitely a problem with kids being exposed to a known hazard that could have potential problems down the line. If the level is high, they are not in compliance with federal and state laws. You could have the water tested yourself. Long term, low level As exposure is nasty, google Arsenic and Bangledesh.

Those white drinking fountains most likely do not have a filtration system on them. Anyway, you need a special system to get rid of arsenic, a regular filter, like a brita will not work. You need an ion exchange system, or an RO system.

While RO systems are expensive. Ion exchange system are not expensive, are easy to maintain and are very effective. They typically use iron (III) to replace the As (III), and I can't remember what they use ffor the other As ions.

Do you know what type of As it is. Type matters. I would fill up a water bottle full of water from the fountain and take it to the state lab or EPA lab and have it run. U Wisc Madison should be able to run samples in the water lab also.

In the meantime, I would talk to the principal and superintendent and explain how serious this is. Just the idea that there are kids out there drinking unsafe water really, really bothers me.