advice from anyone who is an attorney or been through divorce

[hollybloom24]

A friend of mine has been in an abusive (verbal and physical) relationship for a few years. His wife clearly has mental health issues, and she refuses to get any help, even though she is a physician. She throws him out of the house at least once a week and tells him she wants a divorce (he has never left when she has asked him to because he is fearful she will not be able to care for their children.) He has been seeing a therapist for about a year to try to help him cope.

He is at the end of his rope and is considering seeking a divorce although he really wants his family to stay together. I'm trying to give him some advice - what is his first step, speaking to an attorney? A trial separation (he has know idea if his wife will agree to this)? Does anyone have knowledge of how the process works?

He's hoping that once they are separated she'll realize that she doesn't want to be divorced and consider getting help for herself and for the two of them together. If not, he'll probably have to proceed with filing for divorce.

It is a really sad situation - I like the whole family and feel bad for the kids.

TIA.

[Tammy]

I don't have any advice for you, except that it sounds like you're being a good friend at least for someone for him to listen to. I hope it works out for him and his family, especially the children.

[tarabenet]

Divorce law varies by state. Some states do not recognize "separated" as a legal status -- for instance, in my state, if she incurred massive debt while they were "separated" but not divorced, he'd still have equal responsibility. He could also have certain responsibility for other actions she might take.

Because there are children involved and because mental health issues may become part any legal proceedings, he needs to talk to an attorney. The sooner he does that, the better off he will be, whether he ultimately stays or divorces.

ETA: I have been divorced. I did mine myself. There were no children involved and my husband was a nut, but not certifiably so. I'm not an attorney, but I worked in the legislature at the time and had drafted a lot of statutes. I was on very familiar terms with the Family code and other relevant statutes. Nevertheless, had we had children, mental illness issues or any significant assets, no way would I have done it myself.

[CAM7]

The sad thing is that he maybe should stay put. If he can't bring himself to leave the kids with her when he gets 'thrown out' will he be able to hand them over to her for visitation?

[maestramommy]

But if he could prove she had mental health issues, the visits would surely be limited or under supervision only, wouldn't they?

[dcmom2b3]

Liz --

I'm not a family law atty, but here are a few quick thoughts.

1. He must consult with a lawyer (and a good one) ASAP to give him a sense of how the process will/could go. There are so many possible scenarios and so many relevant facts that he'll have to sit down with someone and hash things through. Even if he decides not to take any legal steps re separation or divorce at least he'll be informed. He should get a sense of all of their finances, propery, debts, child related expenses etc. before meeting with the lawyer.

2. He must start documenting her abuse and mental instability. In a journal that he keeps somewhere safe, perhaps his office? Not just what she says and does, but who else was witness to it.

3. If her abuse is affecting the kids, he has a responsibility to keep them safe. He might want to consider leaving of his own volition and taking the kids with him. Note that if he were to leave w/o taking the kids, it might work against him in later custody decisions.

4. As his friend, I would advise him that leaving her with the threat of separation/divorce in the hopes of forcing an aha! moment on her part isn't likely to have any lasting effect. He's assuming that her motivations and incentives are those of a mentally healthy person, but she's not. Maybe she will get help, but if her mental illness is so severe that it's having this kind of effect on their family, it's doubtful that she'll be improved and ready to resume a healthy relationship for a looooooong time. He should be prepared to be separated from her for that looooong time. Everyone is different, but part of the typical cycle of abuse is the "let's make up, everything's all better now" honeymoon phase, which eventually only devolves into more abuse.

5. Has he considered confronting her with the consequences of her abusive behavior? i.e. calling the cops and having her charged with assault next time she gets physical? That's the beginning of a paper trail that could be useful down the road.

Sorry this is sort of disjointed and terse, I have more thoughts that I'll need to add later.

[bubbaray]

ITA with MH, particularly #3. He needs to talk to a lawyer who specializes in family or divorce law.

[CAM7]

But if he could prove she had mental health issues, the visits would surely be limited or under supervision only, wouldn't they?

It can be REALLY tough to get full physical custody...with long term supervised visitation for the ex.

[dcmom2b3]

Sorry this is sort of disjointed and terse, I have more thoughts that I'll need to add later.

Ok, I'm back. With more thoughts that are probably equally disjointed and terse . . .

On the lawyer front:

I do know that there are divorce lawyers who have experience (specializations, even?) in handling cases where there are mental health allegations. Successfully proving any mental health issue is tricky, and he would want to get counsel who really knows what they're doing, even if s/he isn't the person who eventually represents him in court. I've had friends who've bought a few hours of expert divorce lawyer time to map out options and strategies that were later implemented by another (less expensive) local lawyer.

Your friend's therapist might be useful in identifying experienced lawyers -- the therapist's professional contacts (esp. forensic psychs who specialize in family or children's issues) could probably recommend lawyers with whom they've worked and who've done a good job.

If he's truly afraid that the children cannot safely be left in her care, he should raise this with his lawyer and see what s/he advises. He might be able to get a custody order on an emergency basis. He should also bear in mind that until a court orders otherwise, generally speaking, she has as much right to unilateral decision making, travel abroad, etc etc etc, with the kids as he does. There may be precautions that he could take to limit her ability to snatch the children and run or do something equally stupid. I don't mean to sound dramatic or ominous, just putting it out there for consideration.

You're a wonderful friend, and you get big :hug:s for wanting to help him through this. Recently I've had reason to consider separating from/divorcing someone with undiagnosed and unacknowledged mental illness; it isn't pretty. But then again, neither is living with abuse. I truly hope that he makes the best decision for himself and the kids, without regard to how unfair it might seem to consider leaving someone who is ill.

[kijip]

But if he could prove she had mental health issues, the visits would surely be limited or under supervision only, wouldn't they?

Given that I know many families who have trouble securing supervised visits only for ex-spouses that have literally been convicted of assault or other abuse charges in conjunction with the marriage, I would not hold my breath on this one. In one situation, the father is a convicted sex offender (multiple convictions) who was convicted of actually raping his wife when she left him and yet she is having a heck of a time securing a permanent order for only supervised visits and was totally shot down on no visits (the kid does not want to see him). Scary! I believe it is hard in at least some states to limit one parent to only supervised visits. He would have to show a pretty severe pattern of neglect/abuse/risk to the children to get only supervised visits allowed for the mother.

Not saying he should not leave her, I think he should. Just that most likely he will have to be willing to work out visitation where she has supervision of the children.

[MamaKath]

Divorce law varies by state. Some states do not recognize "separated" as a legal status -- for instance, in my state, if she incurred massive debt while they were "separated" but not divorced, he'd still have equal responsibility. He could also have certain responsibility for other actions she might take.

Definitely he should talk to an attorney before any action is taken. Some states will say that if he moved out, he left and is therefore no longer entitled to certain things. Debt is a big one. My sister had her ex go out and charge a ton so she would be stuck paying for part of it.

Just an additional observation- if you are friends with both spouses, it sounds like you are being stuck in the middle a bit by the husband asking for advice. Maybe as a friend you could encourage the wife to seek assistance for her mental health issues as well. Hearing it from someone besides the husband might give her some thrust towards getting help.

[CAM7]

Just an additional observation- if you are friends with both spouses, it sounds like you are being stuck in the middle a bit by the husband asking for advice. Maybe as a friend you could encourage the wife to seek assistance for her mental health issues as well. Hearing it from someone besides the husband might give her some thrust towards getting help.

Good point!

On that same note... if she is JUST friends with the 'hubby' then she should also keep in mind that she is only hearing one side of it. He may have a skewed view of things since he's 'too close to the trees' so to say...

[hollybloom24]

if you are friends with both spouses, it sounds like you are being stuck in the middle a bit by the husband asking for advice. Maybe as a friend you could encourage the wife to seek assistance for her mental health issues as well. Hearing it from someone besides the husband might give her some thrust towards getting help.

Oh, I am totally stuck in the middle. I have tried to talk to the wife about getting some help when she told me she had PPD - her child is now 22 months old. She refused. If it was PPD, it is clearly much more now.

At first when we thought she was suffering from PPD, I didn't mind being in the middle because I thought I could help her. My husband and I are actually better friends with the husband than the wife. Everyone has tried to help her to get some help for 22 months - her parents included. She puts on a happy face and refuses to talk about anything personal.

The husband is seeing a lawyer sometime this week - he made an appointment. He was told on the phone today not to walk out of the house because it will put him in a weaker position if they do move forward with a divorce.

So thanks to all who responded!

[hollybloom24]

deleted for privacy

[niccig]

Can I husband talk to her doctor? Is there anyone at her work that might try to help. Anyone in her family?
This is really difficult. It sounds like the husband wants his wife to get help and that there could be a chance of saving the marriage, but she has to try. But if she's mentally ill, she can't see what's going on.
I hope they can work something out.

[CAM7]

I'm not taking sides - just trying to help the husband who is in tears almost every time I talk to him. I'm sure he does have a skewed view, but the situation is still clearly bad.

Actually from what you've posted it does sound like the wife is in need of some help.

It's just so sad... hang in there...it's even tough on the support systems such as yourself. :-(