Thoughts on Obama Half Hour TV Documentary

[mommylamb]

With all the great discussions on each of the debates, I was surprised that there wasn't a thread on the Obama documentary... maybe everyone is just so tired of the election coverage by now (I know I've reached that point). but, I was still interested in hearing others' thoughts on this one. I am an Obama supporter, and I've already voted, so clearly I didn't need to be influenced. But I thought it was really well done.

[lilycat88]

I didn't watch every minute of it but it was really well done. My husband's direct quote after it was over was "Was that smooth or what?" referring to the live ending. Whoever spearheaded that was brilliant.

[srhs]

To be accurate, it was an infomercial, not a documentary.

I agree it was smooth.
I found it refreshing that even the AP said today that he was "less than upfront."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_el_ge/fact_check_obama_ad

[infocrazy]

I thought it was interesting that he said that people under $200k would not see tax increases...hasn't it been $250k until that point?

[mommylamb]

He said people under $200 K would see a tax cut. People over $250 K would see a tax hike. People between $200-250 would be status quo. That's my understanding of his tax plan. And, call it an infomercial if that makes you feel better. Doesn't bother me. I think the quality was that of a documentary, but it's the eye of the beholder.

[JTsMom]

I'm sure that it's not too surprising that I loved it. ;) I wasn't really sure what to expect, and I was surprised it was a warm as it was. I loved that they focused on average American families, and that it wasn't a typical political piece.

ETA: I can't believe I forgot to mention that my sister was at the live rally that they showed at the end!

[TaChapm]

I think he could have hurt himself by doing it. He STILL didn't really tell us how he was planning on following through with all of his promises. I thought he would since he had spent all of this money on this big infomercial. I think that if I was undecided that it would have certainly turned me off to him because it was just talk...no substance. I did try to watch last night with an open mind because if he does become president I want to know as much as possible. I was honestly expecting more from it.

[Ceepa]

I also was surprised he chose to go with such a hollow presentation for a $4 million primetime, nationwide infomercial.

[Rainbows&Roses]

I think he could have hurt himself by doing it. He STILL didn't really tell us how he was planning on following through with all of his promises. I thought he would since he had spent all of this money on this big infomercial. I think that if I was undecided that it would have certainly turned me off to him because it was just talk...no substance. I did try to watch last night with an open mind because if he does become president I want to know as much as possible. I was honestly expecting more from it.


The substance argument is just so old. If you want to know his exact, detailed, specific plans, head to his website. You can also find his debate performances there or on youtube or cnn.com. He has spelled it out MANY times.

That was not the point of last night. It was a final chance for voters to get to know him and to show that he gets it - he gets what the problems are in the country. The show was about US, more than him. His whole 21 month campaign has been like that.

And it was a chance to plainly spell out what he is promising/planning since the McCain campaign has spewed out lie after lie after lie about his plans. The half hour was far from hollow.

[brittone2]

I don't think the intention was to go into many specifics (although in some ways I wish it would have, as I think there's a lot of misinformation floating around about his plans). From what I saw discussed, the intent was to give some biographical info and the big picture of what his focus was. While a lot of people want specifics, there's a feeling that the specifics can be boring to many people (sadly). The info is there on plans...the details are just not really exciting for most people to listen to.

He campaigned with Bill Clinton last night in FL and I thought that stump speech was pretty good in terms of giving some specifics that weren't in the infomercial.

The 10:00 Diane Rehm show today was a comparison of the two candidates' plans, etc. You can get it as an archived Podcast a few hours after the show (or by the next day). For anyone who wants more info, this show was pretty good (I only heard part of it)
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/

Comparing tax policies /health plan:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/presidential_candidates.cfm

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm

Part of how he affords it is by rolling back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, but *only* to the level they paid under Bill Clinton (when I don't think wealthy Americans were suffering ;) ). The war in Iraq costs 10B a month (and IIRC that doesn't include the future obligations in terms of cost once soldiers arrive back home and need veteran's benefits, care, compensation for injuries, etc.)
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june08/warcost_03-26.html

Several scholars put the real cost (if you factor in our future obligations to soldiers, their families, etc. in terms of health care, compensation, etc) at $2 trillion.

[mommylamb]

The substance argument is just so old. If you want to know his exact, detailed, specific plans, head to his website. You can also find his debate performances there or on youtube or cnn.com. He has spelled it out MANY times.

That was not the point of last night. It was a final chance for voters to get to know him and to show that he gets it - he gets what the problems are in the country. The show was about US, more than him. His whole 21 month campaign has been like that.

And it was a chance to plainly spell out what he is promising/planning since the McCain campaign has spewed out lie after lie after lie about his plans. The half hour was far from hollow.

:yeahthat: I'm not sure what people are looking for when they say "but he hasn't said HOW he would do it. The plans have looked pretty clear to me. My assumption is he'll put it in his budget in February, and then work with Congress to get things passed throughout the next four year. He probably won't get it all done. He'll expend more political capital in some places and less in others. And it will depend on how things score and how much revenues come in. I think the blue dogs in the House will continue to try to get the rest of Congress to adhere to pay-go, so it will be hard (and I don't blame the blue dogs at all. They're doing a really tough job there).

But, I thought the documentary was really so well done. And, I thought it had a lot of substance. But I didn't think it would change anyone's mind who had already made it up to vote R. Had McCain done a similar documentary (and I wouldn't call it an infomercial either), I don't think he could have changed my mind.

[Ceepa]

Well, we'll see what happens on Tuesday. ;) I think his campaign bandwagon is running out of gas and the commercial last night didn't help change that.

[Fairy]

I thought it was interesting that he said that people under $200k would not see tax increases...hasn't it been $250k until that point?

$250k was for small businesses. $200k was for combined family income. Also, he, himself, calls it his Barack Obama Infomercial. It was documentary-like, tho. Perhaps his Barack Obama Campaign DocuMercial.

Anyhoo ... I liked it. But I like him. I've read his website quite a bit, and as I said, I don't love everything about him, but no one is going to please everyone all of the time. He's the best for the job as far as this voter is concerned, so he's my guy. I've liked him since he was running for State Senate years ago. When he was figting against Ryan for the Senate seat, he was on a local show here in Chicago with Dick Kaye, and I was floored. I said to myself, holy mackeral, this man is going to be president. That was way before his keynote of 2004.

One more thing, he was on the Daily Show yesterday, right before his rally with Bill Clinton, and he was great. He knows how to poke fun at himself. Then again, so does McCain. McCain's SNL hosting gig is one of my all time faves. So, these two are are good race. Whereas the 2004 race left me sick to my stomach, this race has given me hope. I thought Barack's DocuMercial was great last night.

Ok, now I'm off to go to early voting in the 2 hour line. Ugh. Will be bringing Mo McCormack's book with me :-)

[icunurse]

Similar to what a PP stated, right now, undecided voters tend to know the stance of each candidate, but are still are looking for something to connect with. The "infomercial" offered a lot for someone to connect with, as far as his background and views, the stories of the common guy struggling to get through the week, etc. While it gave his hopes for education, taxes, and such, it gave people a more personal view of him, perhaps something that people who have not already decided to vote for him haven't seen. I don't think it will sway anyone who was leaning McCain, just as a McCain infomercial wouldn't sway me.

I think the biggest gain for Obama is the fact that everyone is talking about the informerical. Neilsen states over 23 million households viewed it (21.7 share of households), not including the cable channels (MSNBC, BET, Channel One). Less than 6 days before the election, you want your name out there. Well, he did it :)

I do think it is a shame, though, that people can't at least be nice about the guy and act civil - he is not evil. I disagree with McCain on just about everything, but I don't lead others to believe that he is evil and, while I hope he doesn't win, I certainly don't think that it will be the downfall of mankind if he does....just more work to protect what we believe in. There is so much hate for Obama right now because of his race, it is just sad to see our country this way (and I am basing that off of reports from today of an Obama with noose hung from a tree at the U of Kentucky and a student conservative group at U of Texas encouraging people to throw eggs at Obama's pic). This encouraged hatred, for whatever reason, is not the America that I want to see or that I want other countries to view. If he does win the Pres., we cannot encourage or allow this behavior or we will all be guilty if, God forbid, something happens to him. JMHO.

[Laurel]

I think that it is pretty obvious from the posters in this thread that people who like Obama liked the ad and people who don't didn't. I have no idea how it played with undecided voters, but my sense is that it isn't going to have a big impact either way.

I enjoyed it, but I am already sold on Obama. I would not expect any McCain supporter to have a positive opinion of it, although I really liked that there were no attacks during the ad.

[Laurel]

I do think it is a shame, though, that people can't at least be nice about the guy and act civil - he is not evil. I disagree with McCain on just about everything, but I don't lead others to believe that he is evil and, while I hope he doesn't win, I certainly don't think that it will be the downfall of mankind if he does....just more work to protect what we believe in. There is so much hate for Obama right now because of his race, it is just sad to see our country this way (and I am basing that off of reports from today of an Obama with noose hung from a tree at the U of Kentucky and a student conservative group at U of Texas encouraging people to throw eggs at Obama's pic). This encouraged hatred, for whatever reason, is not the America that I want to see or that I want other countries to view. If he does win the Pres., we cannot encourage or allow this behavior or we will all be guilty if, God forbid, something happens to him. JMHO.

I agree with your sentiments and am glad that we have had virtually none of this (from either side) on this board. If/when Obama is President I would hope the opposition would help to quell this hatred/fear.

[LarsMal]

I didn't want to watch it b/c I was nervous that it would be a big flop. I had no idea what to expect, but I was completely sucked in with the first story. I was even tearing up when the older man was talking about how he was supposed to have a $1300 or $1900/month pension and was only getting $350. The way he kept saying "thank you" to the way Obama responded to him, and the fact that he (the man) looked like he was about to cry, was a total tear-jerker for me!

I was pleasantly surprised with the DocuMercial! My only complaint was that Obama didn't talk about his health care plan right after the story of the older couple who didn't have health insurance after retirement. I thought that was a missed opportunity, but just a small thing since he did talk about it later.

I agree with pp who said Obama supporters will like it, McCain supporters won't...I'd love to know how it played out with undecided voters.

And can someone tell me...What the H*LL is Joe the Plumber doing out on the campaign trail today? I thought McCain was complaining about the media not leaving him alone, and now the man has a publicist, is trying to get a country music deal, and is hitting the trail with both Palin and McCain? I really need that barfing smilie! I absolutely loved how Shep Smith (I think that's his name) gave him crap on Fox News.

[Georgia]

I think that it is pretty obvious from the posters in this thread that people who like Obama liked the ad and people who don't didn't. I have no idea how it played with undecided voters, but my sense is that it isn't going to have a big impact either way.

I was wondering who it was aimed at. Obviously McCain supporters won't be swayed by it and it's sort of overkill for firm Obama supporters at this point. (Rachel Maddow apparently said something like "He had me at the waving wheat.") And I agree with you that it's not going to sway a lot of undecideds either. My sense was that it was meant for people who have decided to vote for Obama but it's not a typical vote for them. To make them feel more comfortable with that decision and perhaps firm it up before election day. Is that worth $4 million? not sure...

[irie i]

I do think it is a shame, though, that people can't at least be nice about the guy and act civil - he is not evil. I disagree with McCain on just about everything, but I don't lead others to believe that he is evil and, while I hope he doesn't win, I certainly don't think that it will be the downfall of mankind if he does....just more work to protect what we believe in. There is so much hate for Obama right now because of his race, it is just sad to see our country this way (and I am basing that off of reports from today of an Obama with noose hung from a tree at the U of Kentucky and a student conservative group at U of Texas encouraging people to throw eggs at Obama's pic). This encouraged hatred, for whatever reason, is not the America that I want to see or that I want other countries to view. If he does win the Pres., we cannot encourage or allow this behavior or we will all be guilty if, God forbid, something happens to him. JMHO.

:yeahthat: :cheerleader1: :bighand:
I have been absolutely disgusted by the blatant racism, ethnocentrism, and overall hate and fear that SOME Republicans have shown for Obama. I believe that this infomercial could have shown some undecided voters what a caring, honest and humble man he is. I loved the infomercial and I didn't expect him to spell out word for word and calculate dollar for dollar what his intentions are...that wasn't the purpose. I don't believe that ANY candidate can really do that with 100% accuracy, anyway, until they are IN office and can see the TRUE state of the nation.

[Rainbows&Roses]

$250k was for small businesses. $200k was for combined family income.

No that is incorrect.

http://www.barackobama.com/taxes/


Middle class families will see their taxes cut – and no family making less than $250,000 will see their taxes increase. The typical middle class family will receive well over $1,000 in tax relief under the Obama plan, and will pay tax rates that are 20% lower than they faced under President Reagan. According to the Tax Policy Center, the Obama plan provides three times as much tax relief for middle class families as the McCain plan.

[Fairy]

Thanks for that clarification! I think the $250 is a confusing monkey wrench cuz it's a magic number for small businesses. Businesses and families are separate tax issues, so those two numbers serve to confuse. Good clarification, tho!

[brittone2]

:yeahthat: :cheerleader1: :bighand:
I have been absolutely disgusted by the blatant racism, ethnocentrism, and overall hate and fear that Republicans have shown for Obama. I believe that this infomercial could have shown some indecided voters what a caring, honest and humble man he is. I loved the infomercial and I didn't expect him to spell out word for word and calculate dollar for dollar what his intentions are...that wasn't the purpose. I don't believe that ANY candidate can really do that with 100% accuracy, anyway, until they are IN office and can see the TRUE state of the nation.

Has anyone been following the NC senate race? Elizabeth "Liddy" Dole just took out a commercial against her challenger (who is currently up in the polls), Kay Hagan. There's a voiceover at the end of the commercial that says "There is no God." It is meant to sound like Kay, and it shows her picture, but it is not Kay's actual voice or quote. Sick, sick, sick. It has been on CNN, etc. and is being discussed in many media circuits now. How on earth can someone sleep at night after running something like that?

Kay denounced the ad, adding that her family has attended the same church for 100 years, where she teaches Sunday school (not that it should matter if she were an atheist, frankly, IMO).

Sick.

[Ceepa]

:yeahthat: :cheerleader1: :bighand:
I have been absolutely disgusted by the blatant racism, ethnocentrism, and overall hate and fear that Republicans have shown for Obama.

These are vicious broadstroke accusations against all those identifying themselves as Republicans.

[LarsMal]

Has anyone been following the NC senate race? Elizabeth "Liddy" Dole just took out a commercial against her challenger (who is currently up in the polls), Kay Hagan. There's a voiceover at the end of the commercial that says "There is no God." It is meant to sound like Kay, and it shows her picture, but it is not Kay's actual voice or quote. Sick, sick, sick. It has been on CNN, etc. and is being discussed in many media circuits now. How on earth can someone sleep at night after running something like that?

Kay denounced the ad, adding that her family has attended the same church for 100 years, where she teaches Sunday school (not that it should matter if she were an atheist, frankly, IMO).

Sick.

Yeah, and Dole said she will not remove it. Terrible!

[kijip]

I'm a Democrat and an Obama voter, but all this sort of thing (long infomercial right before election day) makes me think is:

Ross Perot.

That said, it is obvious to me that the campaign is no where close to running out of steam or money. People stating that are not looking at the clear momentum and the breadth of his support. This is a historic run and regardless of the outcome next week, I think the Obama campaign has been remarkably well run and organized. I certainly did not think he could do this or get this far 2 years ago. Republicans and Democrats will be trying to copy his campaign playbook for years to come. No one is going to be copying McCain's playbook for sure.

[brittone2]

These are vicious broadstroke accusations against all those identifying themselves as Republicans.

Here in the south (and undoubtedly in other parts of the country), I know there are plenty of Dems who unfortunately won't support Obama because of his race. I have talked with MIL/FIL who live in PA and race is a factor among some of the people they know. I think it is a problem on both sides in terms of voters. I do think Palin/McCain have certainly drummed up a lot of fears and stoked the flames, however.

[irie i]

These are vicious broadstroke accusations against all those identifying themselves as Republicans.

*some* Republicans, then, to clarify.

[Laurel]

I was wondering who it was aimed at. Obviously McCain supporters won't be swayed by it and it's sort of overkill for firm Obama supporters at this point. (Rachel Maddow apparently said something like "He had me at the waving wheat.") And I agree with you that it's not going to sway a lot of undecideds either. My sense was that it was meant for people who have decided to vote for Obama but it's not a typical vote for them. To make them feel more comfortable with that decision and perhaps firm it up before election day. Is that worth $4 million? not sure...

For those who enjoy David Sedaris (or humor), here is his take on the undecideds: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2008/10/27/081027sh_shouts_sedaris

[Laurel]

That said, it is obvious to me that the campaign is no where close to running out of steam or money. People stating that are not looking at the clear momentum and the breadth of his support. This is a historic run and regardless of the outcome next week, I think the Obama campaign has been remarkably well run and organized. I certainly did not think he could do this or get this far 2 years ago. Republicans and Democrats will be trying to copy his campaign playbook for years to come. No one is going to be copying McCain's playbook for sure.

This. The Obama campaign/ground game will be the model for years to come.

[irie i]

For those who enjoy David Sedaris (or humor), here is his take on the undecideds: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2008/10/27/081027sh_shouts_sedaris

Hahaha! There are some hilarious pieces at http://www.236.com/ as well regarding undecided voters.

[mamicka]

To be accurate, it was an infomercial, not a documentary.



Yeah, I read the thread title & thought, oh - I didn't know there was an Obama documentary. I would have watched it.

[irie i]

There actually is at least one Obama documentary - it is part of the Race to the White House series on the Biography channel.
http://www.biography.com/featured-biography/barack-obama/index.jsp

Obama himself called the ad an informercial on the Jon Stewart show last night.

[mamicka]

There actually is at least one Obama doctumentary - it is part of the Race to the White House series on the Biography channel.
http://www.biography.com/featured-biography/barack-obama/index.jsp

Obama himself called the ad an informercial on the Jon Stewart show last night.

Oh, yeah - you're right. I have seen some of that. Thanks for the reminder, I'll check if they're airing it again.

I don't think that calling it an infomercial is meant as an insult. It is what it is. It's dishonest to call it a documentary, IMO.

[mommylamb]

I was wondering who it was aimed at. Obviously McCain supporters won't be swayed by it and it's sort of overkill for firm Obama supporters at this point. (Rachel Maddow apparently said something like "He had me at the waving wheat.") And I agree with you that it's not going to sway a lot of undecideds either. My sense was that it was meant for people who have decided to vote for Obama but it's not a typical vote for them. To make them feel more comfortable with that decision and perhaps firm it up before election day. Is that worth $4 million? not sure...


Honestly, I think it was aimed at democrats. To encourage them to actually get out there to vote. It was aimed at all those thousands and thousands of new voters who got registered this year, but could easily sit it out. It was inspiration for them to be part of the process.

[mommylamb]

Oh, yeah - you're right. I have seen some of that. Thanks for the reminder, I'll check if they're airing it again.

I don't think that calling it an infomercial is meant as an insult. It is what it is. It's dishonest to call it a documentary, IMO.

Call it whatever you like. I don't think characterizing it as a documentary is dishonest, but if it makes you feel better to call me dishonest... or you can just say we characterize things differently and move on. So not a big deal.

[citymama]

That said, it is obvious to me that the campaign is no where close to running out of steam or money. People stating that are not looking at the clear momentum and the breadth of his support. This is a historic run and regardless of the outcome next week, I think the Obama campaign has been remarkably well run and organized. I certainly did not think he could do this or get this far 2 years ago. Republicans and Democrats will be trying to copy his campaign playbook for years to come. No one is going to be copying McCain's playbook for sure.


:yeahthat: I hope that if elected, Obama retains that amazing organizational capacity, discipline and efficiency - as well as his cool, level-headed demeanor. McCain has been all over the map, changing his approach, his mind, his tactics, his principles - on a daily, if not hourly basis. I don't think it has helped his campaign any.

[mommy111]

That said, it is obvious to me that the campaign is no where close to running out of steam or money. People stating that are not looking at the clear momentum and the breadth of his support. This is a historic run and regardless of the outcome next week, I think the Obama campaign has been remarkably well run and organized. I certainly did not think he could do this or get this far 2 years ago. Republicans and Democrats will be trying to copy his campaign playbook for years to come. No one is going to be copying McCain's playbook for sure.

:yeahthat:
That is the one thing that really helps me feel very comfortable with an Obama presidency. Against Hillary Clinton, he had a brilliant game plan. He learned from his few mistakes in that primay campaign, though, and improved.
Towards the end of the primaries, he outlined to the democrats what the game plan was: I will turn these red states blue and I have a good shot in the swing states. He's done that in the polls. The guy is absolutely brilliant and knows how to get things done. He's just one of those people who 'get it' Which is far more valuable than experience, IMHO.

But I'm way partisan, so I shouldn't even comment :)

[citymama]

Honestly, I think it was aimed at democrats. To encourage them to actually get out there to vote. It was aimed at all those thousands and thousands of new voters who got registered this year, but could easily sit it out. It was inspiration for them to be part of the process.

This is really important. Please don't sit this one out folks - VOTE!!!:cheerleader1:

[brittone2]

No running out of steam here in NC LOL. We've been canvassing one day per week for a few weeks now, and last weekend we had 30 volunteers show up to just one canvassing meetup (there were many other neighborhoods being canvassed). It was awesome :cheerleader1:

I've seen more and more volunteers getting involved here in NC...especially since things are neck and neck here.

We're in the Triangle area of NC, which is huge for Obama. There are big, big volunteer efforts for GOTV.

[mommylamb]

This is really important. Please don't sit this one out folks - VOTE!!!:cheerleader1:

I totally agree. Obviously, I want Obama to win this thing so bad I can taste it, but even if you don't agree with me, everyone should vote.

[mamicka]

Call it whatever you like. I don't think characterizing it as a documentary is dishonest, but if it makes you feel better to call me dishonest... or you can just say we characterize things differently and move on. So not a big deal.

It doesn't make me feel anything to say that calling it a documentary is dishonest, except maybe honest. A documentary & an infomercial are very different things. The Obama campaign themselves are calling it an infomercial, a "Political Message", & a "TV ad". Raising that to the level of a documentary is dishonest, IMO, not characterizing things differently. Unless, of course, the ad for Clorox I just saw on TV is now considered a documentary. I get no joy from that opinion.

[kijip]

It doesn't make me feel anything to say that calling it a documentary is dishonest, except maybe honest. A documentary & an infomercial are very different things. The Obama campaign themselves are calling it an infomercial, a "Political Message", & a "TV ad". Raising that to the level of a documentary is dishonest, IMO, not characterizing things differently. Unless, of course, the ad for Clorox I just saw on TV is now considered a documentary. I get no joy from that opinion.

You are right. It's not a documentary. It's an advertisement. How effective or needed or cost wise it was an ad is up for debate.

[mamicka]

You are right. It's not a documentary. It's an advertisement. How effective or needed or cost wise it was an ad is up for debate.

Thanks, Katie. FTR, I didn't see the ad at all. But I think it may have been a really good thing for his campaign. I think it was smart.

[mommylamb]

It doesn't make me feel anything to say that calling it a documentary is dishonest, except maybe honest. A documentary & an infomercial are very different things. The Obama campaign themselves are calling it an infomercial, a "Political Message", & a "TV ad". Raising that to the level of a documentary is dishonest, IMO, not characterizing things differently. Unless, of course, the ad for Clorox I just saw on TV is now considered a documentary. I get no joy from that opinion.
:shrug: Whatever. I just think it's semantics, and I don't consider myself a dishonest person. I didn't think calling it a documentary was dishonest, and I would never insult you that way because I don't know you (and I don't go around insulting people). I personally liked the characterization someone used earlier in this thread, calling it a documercial. Regardless, just not a big deal. But really, not meant to be dishonest. Not the point of the discussion at all. I just wanted to get other folks' takes on it.

[maestramommy]

He said people under $200 K would see a tax cut. People over $250 K would see a tax hike. People between $200-250 would be status quo. That's my understanding of his tax plan. And, call it an infomercial if that makes you feel better. Doesn't bother me. I think the quality was that of a documentary, but it's the eye of the beholder.

That's a surprise to me, because I was under the impression that between $100K-$250K was status quo.

[g-mama]

:I believe that this infomercial could have shown some undecided voters what a caring, honest and humble man he is.

It's funny that the word "humble" is thought be a good word to describe Obama. Dh and I were just saying during the infomercial how arrogant he seems to us.

And honest? IMO, he has been very DIShonest about all his dealings with so many controversial characters. Not saying that he personally *did* anything out of line, but his judgment to be involved with those who have is very questionable to me and his dishonesty about it is troubling.

[kijip]

That's a surprise to me, because I was under the impression that between $100K-$250K was status quo.
You can play around with this calculator:

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

Frankly, I doubt McCain or Obama will be able to make many, if any tax cuts. Especially with the spending each is proposing. So their plans matter little to me- what matters is what they will actually be able to do and the values and priorities they will bring to the hard work ahead (what can we afford? what must we spend on? What can we save on? what taxes are unfair?). Since I personally think Obama's values and priorities more closely align with mine, he has my vote. But I will be surprised if I get the $1000-1800 savings (based on if I itemize of not?) or whatnot that someone with my mortgage, # of kids, yes to saving for retirement/college/childcare, income etc will supposedly get on this calculator. And call me a liberal but honestly, making what we do I have not felt strained or resentful of my federal tax bill at this income level. I guess I would like to see more relief for families closer to the median than for people like me that are doing way better $$ wise than the vast majority of Americans. My taxes were a bigger issue when I made 1/2 as much.

[kijip]

It's funny that the word "humble" is thought be a good word to describe Obama. Dh and I were just saying during the infomercial how arrogant he seems to us.


I would not call him any more arrogant than any other candidate or past president but anybody with the gall to run for president at all and make it to the national stage like this is not someone with average or below average self esteem. ;) Narcissist might as well be listed in the job description. Just presuming you are the best person to run a nation is kinda arrogant in and of itself.

Regarding honesty, we just have to agree to disagree.

[kcandz]

It is very interesting how our loyalties and predilections color our perceptions. I feel I could write your entire post substituting the word "McCain" for "Obama".

I admire you for watching the infomercial, especially if you watched the whole thing. I admit I would not watch a 30 minute McCain infomercial. Then again, I did not watch the 30 minute Obama infomercial either.

[g-mama]

It is very interesting how our loyalties and predilections color our perceptions. I feel I could write your entire post substituting the word "McCain" for "Obama".

I admire you for watching the infomercial, especially if you watched the whole thing. I admit I would not watch a 30 minute McCain infomercial. Then again, I did not watch the 30 minute Obama infomercial either.

Who are you responding to?

[crayonblue]

"Frankly, I doubt McCain or Obama will be able to make many, if any tax cuts. Especially with the spending each is proposing. So their plans matter little to me- what matters is what they will actually be able to do and the values and priorities they will bring to the hard work ahead (what can we afford? what must we spend on? What can we save on? what taxes are unfair?)."

I agree with Katie. (Not sure how to cut a quote and paste so this will have to do!) My values are aligned more with McCain's so that is why I am voting for him. I really don't think he or Obama will do much of anything they are proposing.

Recently I had a conversation with a friend who was blasting away at Bush for lying. I assumed she was talking about the war in Iraq but was surprised when she said that she is still angry with him for lying about school vouchers. My thought is that every 4 years the candidates campaign on things they cannot possibly get done.

To the OP, I didn't watch the infomercial.

[kijip]

Recently I had a conversation with a friend who was blasting away at Bush for lying. I assumed she was talking about the war in Iraq but was surprised when she said that she is still angry with him for lying about school vouchers. My thought is that every 4 years the candidates campaign on things they cannot possibly get done.



ITA! I think we sometimes label people liars for just not succeeding. And sometimes they fail because they maybe SHOULD fail- most people would not agree to Bush's thoughts on SS for example so it went down in flames. Some people have a very unrealistic view of what a President can and can not do. One thing the President CAN'T do is of course spend money without Congressional consent. So things like vouchers or SS reform that Bush most likely 100% supported in all truthfulness he simply can't do alone. Does not make him a liar, makes him out voted;), IYKWIM. We don't, thankfully, live in a dictatorship where everything the President or leader wants can happen by proclaimation. No one should have that much power!

[Georgia]

It's funny that the word "humble" is thought be a good word to describe Obama.

Even Obama would say that's a bad word to describe him. At a charity dinner he and McCain appeared at a couple weeks ago the candidates were supposed to poke fun at themselves. One of Obama's lines was that his greatest quality was his humility. McCain's best joke was that he'd replaced all of his advisers with Joe the plumber.

[mommylamb]

It's funny that the word "humble" is thought be a good word to describe Obama. Dh and I were just saying during the infomercial how arrogant he seems to us.

And honest? IMO, he has been very DIShonest about all his dealings with so many controversial characters. Not saying that he personally *did* anything out of line, but his judgment to be involved with those who have is very questionable to me and his dishonesty about it is troubling.

Like McCain's dealings with with folks like G. Gordon Liddy the Watergate burgler? The hypocrisy is huge here.

Some exerpts from Wikipedia:

Liddy is a convicted felon, and confessed domestic terrorist. For his role in Watergate, which he coordinated with Hunt, Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary and illegal wiretapping, and received a 20-year sentence. He served a total of five and half years in prison, including over 100 days in solitary confinement, before his sentence was commuted by President Jimmy Carter and he was released on September 7, 1977.

In 1998 Liddy hosted a fundraiser at his house for John McCain's re-election campaign at which guests could have their pictures taken with McCain and Liddy.[7] Over the years, Liddy, who has referred to McCain as "an old friend," has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns -- including $1,000 in 2008. When David Letterman asked McCain about his relationship with Liddy, McCain said, "Who?" Then, following a commercial break, McCain said "I know Gordon Liddy. He paid his debt. He went to prison and paid his debt, as people do. I'm not in any way embarrassed to know Gordon Liddy."[8]

[brittone2]

Like McCain's dealings with with folks like G. Gordon Liddy the Watergate burgler? The hypocrisy is huge here.

Some exerpts from Wikipedia:

Liddy is a convicted felon, and confessed domestic terrorist. For his role in Watergate, which he coordinated with Hunt, Liddy was convicted of conspiracy, burglary and illegal wiretapping, and received a 20-year sentence. He served a total of five and half years in prison, including over 100 days in solitary confinement, before his sentence was commuted by President Jimmy Carter and he was released on September 7, 1977.

In 1998 Liddy hosted a fundraiser at his house for John McCain's re-election campaign at which guests could have their pictures taken with McCain and Liddy.[7] Over the years, Liddy, who has referred to McCain as "an old friend," has made at least four contributions totaling $5,000 to the senator's campaigns -- including $1,000 in 2008. When David Letterman asked McCain about his relationship with Liddy, McCain said, "Who?" Then, following a commercial break, McCain said "I know Gordon Liddy. He paid his debt. He went to prison and paid his debt, as people do. I'm not in any way embarrassed to know Gordon Liddy."[8]

Both candidates know a lot of people. IMO McCain/Palin can be called out for their own associations just as easily.

There are photos of McCain celebrating his birthday on a yacht with Mollieri (Ann Hathaway's former boyfriend, now a convicted con man). Sarah Palin's pastor, and her husband's ties to the Alaska secessionist party are certainly controversial. McCain and Palin keep bringing up Khalidi now, but McCain chaired the International Republican Institute when it gave an almost 500,000 grant to Khalidi for research on Palestine. He obviously didn't consider him a problem then...only now.

Honestly, I think McCain and Palin throw out these associations out of desperation. If candidates are to be judged on loose associations, they have just as many of their own "questionable" associations. Both candiates know a lot of people across the world. It is silly to try to pin Obama down on his when McCain/Palin have similar loose ties to individuals.

[Piglet]

ITA! I think we sometimes label people liars for just not succeeding. And sometimes they fail because they maybe SHOULD fail- most people would not agree to Bush's thoughts on SS for example so it went down in flames. Some people have a very unrealistic view of what a President can and can not do. One thing the President CAN'T do is of course spend money without Congressional consent. So things like vouchers or SS reform that Bush most likely 100% supported in all truthfulness he simply can't do alone. Does not make him a liar, makes him out voted;), IYKWIM. We don't, thankfully, live in a dictatorship where everything the President or leader wants can happen by proclaimation. No one should have that much power!

Well said!

[irie i]

Both candidates know a lot of people. IMO McCain/Palin can be called out for their own associations just as easily.

Honestly, I think McCain and Palin throw out these associations out of desperation. If candidates are to be judged on loose associations, they have just as many of their own "questionable" associations. Both candiates know a lot of people across the world. It is silly to try to pin Obama down on his when McCain/Palin have similar loose ties to individuals.

Well said. McCain reportedly has had associations with racist people/organizations and is apparently notorious for racist, ethnocentric and homophobic jokes. He is also notorious for having a horribly bad temper, verbally abusing his wife cheating on her then leaving her after she had an accident that changed her physically, storming out of meetings and even hitting a woman. But you don't hear this out of Obama's mouth. Unlike McCain/Palin whose rallys seem to have little to do with speaking about the issues and more to do with attacking Barack Obama's character...keeping mum (particularly Palin...at least McCain has stood up to some of his idiotic supporters) while people spew horribly vicious insults and threats. I will never associate myself with a party that is endorsed by the KKK. Nobody is perfect and in everyone's past there is something that can be considered questionable...I am just glad that Obama isn't stooping to this level.

[Ceepa]

I am very interested to see the results Tuesday. And even if McCain/Palin don't win this election, there's always 2012 for Sarah. :)

[g-mama]

I am very interested to see the results Tuesday. And even if McCain/Palin don't win this election, there's always 2012 for Sarah. :)


Me too. Woo Hoo!

[brittone2]

Random light hearted post, but I heard on the radio a few mins ago that Obama will be returning to Chicago this evening to spend Halloween with his girls :love-retry:

I think it rocks that he manages to stay connected to them.

[mamicka]

Me too. Woo Hoo!

I'll second that! Or third... whatever.

Go McCain/Palin!!!!!

[brittone2]

I'll second that! Or third... whatever.

Go McCain/Palin!!!!!

While I obviously support the other side, I'm glad that the conservatives here are feeling enthusiastic :)
I don't think any of you should be afraid to post here.

[Fairy]

While I obviously support the other side, I'm glad that the conservatives here are feeling enthusiastic :)
I don't think any of you should be afraid to post here.

What she said.

[g-mama]

Thanks, Beth and Fairy. The reason we do is b/c of comments on the Sarah Palin thread where someone sent their condolences to the person whose town Palin is visiting. I said there and will say here: I just don't see Republicans saying things like that about Obama here and it answers - in a nutshell - the question as to why we feel a bit uncomfortable expressing ourselves.

[citymama]

Thanks, Beth and Fairy. The reason we do is b/c of comments on the Sarah Palin thread where someone sent their condolences to the person whose town Palin is visiting. I said there and will say here: I just don't see Republicans saying things like that about Obama here and it answers - in a nutshell - the question as to why we feel a bit uncomfortable expressing ourselves.

That someone was me. And it was my sympathies. See my update to that thread. I agree with brittone and Fairy that we all need to be able to speak our minds, conservative, liberal, libertarian, apolitical. That goes for me as well.

[g-mama]

I apologize for misquoting you. Yes, "sympathies" was the word you used, not "condolences."

Do you think that we are saying you can't speak your mind? Because if you do, you're misunderstanding the point. It's the *way* you and some others are communicating your opinions that creates a hostile environment for anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Ceepa]

That someone was me. And it was my sympathies. See my update to that thread. I agree with brittone and Fairy that we all need to be able to speak our minds, conservative, liberal, libertarian, apolitical. That goes for me as well.

Sure you do. I don't think Kristen or I were suggesting people can't speak their minds.

[Wife_and_mommy]

I'll second that! Or third... whatever.

Go McCain/Palin!!!!!

Me too! (as I procrastinate scrubbing my floors while both kids sleep.....)

[citymama]

It's the *way* you and some others are communicating your opinions that creates a hostile environment for anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I guess I am a little taken aback by the "hate mail" I've gotten on the threads and in my inbox in the one or two hours since I posted a one-line remark, that (while you may disagree with my politics) was reflecting my opinion.

So while I can speak my mind, and do, and will, I do think the hostility I have experienced tells me that maybe I would be better off not doing so for the next little while.

[mamicka]

I guess I am a little taken aback by the "hate mail" I've gotten on the threads and in my inbox in the one or two hours since I posted a one-line remark, that (while you may disagree with my politics) was reflecting my opinion.

So while I can speak my mind, and do, and will, I do think the hostility I have experienced tells me that maybe I would be better off not doing so for the next little while.

The hate mail I've received has been equally shocking, I assure you.

ETA: What are you classifying as hate mail "on the threads"?

[g-mama]

Wow, I feel unloved. I've not gotten any hate mail! ;)

I hope you haven't perceived anything *I* said in the threads to be "hate mail." I have addressed a one-liner of yours but in no way was it hate mail.