How to discipline when didn't see what happened?

[niccig]

DS and his best friend are getting along better, as I've been supervising more and stepping in to help them work out disputes before it escalates. Today was a good play date, except for when his friend told his mother that DS spat on the baby brother. DS said he didn't spit. We didn't see it. It's happend before, the best friend says DS hit him first and then he hit DS back, but DS says he didn't hit at all. Both boys are admanant that they're right. My friend said her instinct is to believe her DS as he doesn't lie, which implies that my DS is lying. So, I told her that my instinct is to believe DS, as my DS is the one that is crying and her son is the one running to tell us first. I also don't agree with the boys not lying. They're 4, they've worked out they get in trouble if they've done something wrong and they don't want to get into trouble. She agreed that it could also be their interpretation of what happened, but it wasn't actually a spit or a hit. Or one of them provoked the other, not that hitting is justified then, but that there could be more going on. I believe that as we did not witness it we don't know what happened and we can't take sides.

We talked about needing to deal with these occasions when they happen. But how do you deal with an issue like spitting or hitting, when you didn't see it and you don't know what happened. Today we tried to generally address the no spitting issue, but my DS got really upset as he said he didn't do it, so why should he be in trouble - he wasn't, we were just talking about how you don't spit. His best friend then got upset and said that DS did spit. So, both were upset.

Any advice? I thought this was a classic sibling issue, so what would work with siblings, might work with 2 friends.
Thanks.

[JTsMom]

FWIW, I think you handled it well. I would have done something similar, and I wouldn't let the fact the both were upset really change that. I would have acknowledged both kids' feelings, but not sided with them, and I would have kept the actual talking about the incident brief- "You both are very upset. I can tell that something happened to make you angry. I didn't see what happened, but what is important is that we treat each other kindly. Everybody needs to be safe, no matter what. If you have a problem that you can't solve using words, come and tell us, and we will help you."

I'm betting at 4 they know perfectly well that spitting and hitting are not allowed, so I would feel ok not addressing either behavior specifically.

Honestly, after working with tons of kids this age, this kind of stuff happpens quite a bit. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's constant, or unless you think it's so bad that it's not worth them being allowed to play alone.

[hillview]

FWIW, I think you handled it well. I would have done something similar, and I wouldn't let the fact the both were upset really change that. I would have acknowledged both kids' feelings, but not sided with them, and I would have kept the actual talking about the incident brief- "You both are very upset. I can tell that something happened to make you angry. I didn't see what happened, but what is important is that we treat each other kindly. Everybody needs to be safe, no matter what. If you have a problem that you can't solve using words, come and tell us, and we will help you."

I'm betting at 4 they know perfectly well that spitting and hitting are not allowed, so I would feel ok not addressing either behavior specifically.

Honestly, after working with tons of kids this age, this kind of stuff happpens quite a bit. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's constant, or unless you think it's so bad that it's not worth them being allowed to play alone.

:yeahthat:

Said better than I could have!
/hillary

[KBecks]

I think you are are right to generally talk about how we don't spit or hit, and then maybe frame it on why, and how it hurts another person. I think there are things about how to talk with kids to encourage empathy. I'm not super familiar with them though.

I would probably deal with these things lightly and quickly and redirect the kids to something positive for them to do. And let them know they're good, act confident that they know what's OK and what's not OK and they know how to play nicely together. So don't give it a lot of attention.

I would probably look to praise them when they are doing well and give them some positive feedback, not tons of praise but just a positive comment here and there when they're on the right track.

A good sibling book is Siblings Without Rivalary. My copy is loaned out right now to a friend, but I read it when I was pregnant with #2, yet freaking and doing my homework waaaay ahead of time. :)

[egoldber]

I would probably deal with these things lightly and quickly and redirect the kids to something positive for them to do. And let them know they're good, act confident that they know what's OK and what's not OK and they know how to play nicely together. So don't give it a lot of attention.

I would probably look to praise them when they are doing well and give them some positive feedback, not tons of praise but just a positive comment here and there when they're on the right track.

:yeahthat:

I think this is the right track. I would try to completely de-emphasize the who is right vs who is wrong. Honestly, both children are probably contributing in some way to what is happening so both bear some responsibility. Focusing on "right and wrong" is perhaps fueling the problem by giving an incentive to one child to make the other look like the "bad" one.

I know that when Amy and Sarah argue (a different dynamic of course because of the age difference) I never find it helpful to focus on who did what to whom. I talk to both in an age appropriate way about the play dynamic. So to Amy I talk about how to play nicely and I talk to Sarah about how to de-fuse a situation before it gets out of control (walk away or get a grown-up if you don't like the way she plays).

[Melbel]

As the boys get older, you may be able to try this strategy. When DS and DD1 start bickering, fighting and/or tattling, I tell them to work it out and if they cannot play nicely, then they will not play at all and they have to go to their respective rooms. Given the history of problems, I would supervise more closely, perhaps at somewhat of a distance where they do not realize they are being supervised. I would also be tempted to set up a web cam to see what is really going on!

[niccig]

Thanks everyone. I'll try you solutions with acknowleging that they are both upset, but that both of them probably contributed to the solution. Neither of them is a saint, and I think believing one over the other, will make things worse.

I am supervising more carefully to watch what is going on. My friend is pretty overwhelmed with life at the moment, and when we were there she was very distracted between checking work emails, phone calls, the baby etc. She also believes the boys can work it out by themselves, but DS's preschool teacher said they are too young to do that without guidance - I mentioned this to my friend and she was surprised. I'm going to be more visible to the boys, so I can step in before things escalate. Yesterday they were fighting over 2 toys, and we talked about ways to solve the problem, they couldn't think of anything so I suggested making a game with the helicopter and the dinosaur, which they did and the fighting stopped.

When they play well together, they have a great time. But it can easily dissolve and my DS ends up getting hurt. DS really likes his friend, and I don't want to stop playdates, if there's another solution. And for now, that's me helping them to resolve disputes.

[lisams]

Thanks everyone. I'll try you solutions with acknowleging that they are both upset, but that both of them probably contributed to the solution. Neither of them is a saint, and I think believing one over the other, will make things worse.

I am supervising more carefully to watch what is going on. My friend is pretty overwhelmed with life at the moment, and when we were there she was very distracted between checking work emails, phone calls, the baby etc. She also believes the boys can work it out by themselves, but DS's preschool teacher said they are too young to do that without guidance - I mentioned this to my friend and she was surprised. I'm going to be more visible to the boys, so I can step in before things escalate. Yesterday they were fighting over 2 toys, and we talked about ways to solve the problem, they couldn't think of anything so I suggested making a game with the helicopter and the dinosaur, which they did and the fighting stopped.

When they play well together, they have a great time. But it can easily dissolve and my DS ends up getting hurt. DS really likes his friend, and I don't want to stop playdates, if there's another solution. And for now, that's me helping them to resolve disputes.

I agree that they're still too young to work out all problems by themselves and it's obvious since they're still getting into little arguments that escalate. I agree with minimizing the "he did it/no he did it" because when it comes down to it, both are probably contributing to the problem and both need to learn how to problem solve. I think it's great that you are there helping them try to work through the problems.

One thing I've found with playdates is after the 2nd or 3rd one with the same child, it seems more issues arise. I've found that changing the scenery - like taking the playdate to a park or having a big plain box out or something new for both of them kind of helps with keeping them busy and distracted from the bickering.

Kudos to you for really trying to make this work. It's not easy, but I think you're doing a great job.